Pipe trick - better way for Nar/Mil Lilies in Temple

[Gabriel]

Well, it's rather an upgrade than a new method. It just increases your chances of finding a Nar/Mil Lily while decreasing the damage to the optic unit.
Concept:

1) In Temple1 where you start off facing north, go straight up and kill only the non-lilies (same as the regular method).

2) Then, return to the previous room and head left. Kill all enemies and go to the next room. You should be lead into a walled room, with three lilies and some other enemy (I can't remember wether it was a rappy or Assassin).

3) Kill ONLY the non-lilies and access the switch, raising the bridge at the room with 5 lilies.

4) Return to the beginning of the level and head right. Kill all enemies in the room and head into the next one (it should be a big room).

5) There will be two lilies and some other enemies in the first spawn. Kill them all and activate the switch for the bridge in the other room.

6) This will activate a second spawn, this time three lilies will show up along with some other enemies. Kill all non-lilies and go to the room with the bridge.

(NOTE: The passageways to the bridge room will NOT be open, because you didn't kill all enemies in both rooms)

7) Activating the five-lily spawn after crossing the bridge, there should be ELEVEN lilies.

8 ) If none of them is a Nar/Mil, you can just kill them all and save/quit or start piping.


Why this method is better:
+ You have MORE THAN TWICE the number of lilies from the 'regular method" to check, resulting in more chances of getting that 1/512. Yes, that's way better.

+ Since the bridge room is closed to the other rooms, you have to walk from it to them, giving you time to develop mags and whatnot.

+ Walking around to the three rooms will reduce the damage on the system. The main problem with the regular pipe trick is going back and forth into Pioneer 2 too may times in a row and too fast, forcing the optic unit. Therefore, if you take your time in town (go to the shop, whatever) instead of simply teleporting back to the temple as soon as your sprite shows up, AND walk around to check all three rooms, this won't force the console nearly as much as the regular method.

Seriously, I produced 2 Mil Lilies in 10 mins, and wasted 18 telepipes. With the regular method, it took me more than an hour and some 30 or more telepipes.

Did I take too long to say something so simple? Sorry. xD

I think we can also improve the method for getting other rare monster if we apply this idea. Any suggestions?

[wqewqe234]

Sounds like alot of work you might have been extremely lucky as well i'll give it a try thoe

[Jaspaller]

Really good method but the problem is that you won't always get that starting setup.

[Gabriel]

xD I know, it may sound like too much work, but if you really need a certain item from them, this is the method. I've just tried it with other characters/sectionIDs, and with the all of them I got the same result.

BEFORE USING YOUR 35th PIPE, YOU WILL HAVE FOUND 2 LILIES.

In my case, I've tried with Viridia (ult), Greenill (vh) and Redria (normal), it was the same with all of them:
- Found first Lily at about 15th-19th pipe
- Kept going and found the second lily at about 26-29th pipe.
- Then I saved and quit while I was ahead http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif
- You can probably keep piping since there will still be 9 lilies left to check

I know there's a LOT of luck involved, but I truly believe this to be a matter of numbers. Check on 11 lilies every time you pipe - shorter wait time for a 1/512 rare lily appearance.

I just took my time with my redria hucast and got 2 addslots. Best drop rate ever - I killed 5 Mil Lilies with my viridia and only got 2 standstill shields, 2498 meseta, knight/power- (LOL) and some barta lv18 disk (yeech).


Really good method but the problem is that you won't always get that starting setup.

Yes, there is that downside to it.http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif In my case, I've been pretty lucky wo get this setup when I wanted to try this method. But I guess I could just go for a full run or soft reset and try again.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Gabriel on 2008-04-30 16:54 ]</font>

[Taleck]

but if you pipe on a Cube, it's gonna ruin it. Is there any method against that?

[Gabriel]

On 2008-04-30 21:11, Taleck wrote:
but if you pipe on a Cube, it's gonna ruin it. Is there any method against that?



I'll admit to not knowing the exact details to the programming problem, but I think it's correct to assume that what destroys the GC is making the disc reader unit reload everything again and again without giving it proper time to return to its original position.

For example, if you use a pipe, then as you go up to pioneer 2 you keep pressing the button repeatedly just so you'll go back to the dungeon as soon as your character pops up in pioneer 2 (if you do it really fast, you barely get to see your character before going back to the dungeon). If you repeat this very quickly, you'll make the reader try and load so much stuff at the same time, it might as well go nuts xD

If simply using a telepipe were damage enough to the cube, that would make the telepipe an item of the devil, so stop using it for whatever purpose: Ban it from your inventory. But I really think that the most damage comes from materializing and de-materiarilizing way too fast.

And that is beauty of this "method":
Since it's not "Look at monsters: no rares? - pipe - pioneer2 - go back - look - pipe - etc", you actually give the reader time to adjust itself back to the game instead of making it go nuts trying to load pioneer 2 again.

Piping usually involves finding a safe spot in a room with the right monsters and going back and forth until you spot the rare one. This is what damages the console, IMHO, the fact that you're making it load up an entire map just to stay 2.5 seconds and pipe back to pioneer2 again (and once there you'll do the same thing).

Really, this method is GUARANTEED (by me xD) to get you a Mil/Nar Lily within the first 20 pipes. As soon as you've found it, just turn off your console or play normally to make the reader go back to its usual routine. (I'd advise to stay a bit and hunt for a second Mil/Nar Lily because so far it showed up within 9-12 pipes from the first one)

Of course, I could just be incredibly wrong about all this and maybe the telepipe effect itself is already damaging, but so far it makes a lot of sense to take longer to go up to P2 and to go down to ragol (and checking up on eleven lilies WILL make it easier for the rare one to show up).

[ljkkjlcm9]

I'll have you know. I could do the stage and just get a mil/nar lily without trying, or I could telepipe 5000 times and never see it. You can't guarantee something that is randomly generated. Granted, you have a much higher chance of getting one the more you see, but you can not guarantee it.

THE JACKEL

[Ithildin]

On 2008-05-01 00:29, ljkkjlcm9 wrote:
I'll have you know. I could do the stage and just get a mil/nar lily without trying, or I could telepipe 5000 times and never see it. You can't guarantee something that is randomly generated. Granted, you have a much higher chance of getting one the more you see, but you can not guarantee it.

THE JACKEL



I was just going to say the exact thing. You can increase your chances of finding a Nar but you CANNOT guarantee it within the first 20 pipes.

For example way back when I was hunting god/battle, hildelt, 1/371, I did Forest of Sorrow runs. I counted the number of Hildelts I killed. Got all the way to the 371st and still it did not drop. The number is the chance of it happening NOT that if you kill that many you will be guaranteed to find it.

[Splash]

Old news. The only reason this is not mentioned in the guides is because by definition, "piping" is suppose to be quick and efficient. 11 Lilies is not fast since it is spread out to 3 rooms, taking about an extra 5-10 seconds than necessary, in which you could have seen 15 Lilies in that same amount of time with a spawn of 5.

[Gabriel]

On 2008-05-02 13:20, Splash wrote:
Old news. The only reason this is not mentioned in the guides is because by definition, "piping" is suppose to be quick and efficient. 11 Lilies is not fast since it is spread out to 3 rooms, taking about an extra 5-10 seconds than necessary, in which you could have seen 15 Lilies in that same amount of time with a spawn of 5.


Uh huh
Too bad the "quick" part destroys your console, and the "efficient" part is QUESTIONABLE AT BEST compared to my results with this method.

And the actual presence of eleven lilies makes the appearance of a rare one easier to force, I don't know why, but I know for a fact it really does.

With three different characters and three different section IDs, using this method, I managed to find two Mil lilies in less than 30 pipes. That can't be a product of random coincidence ou luck.

With the same three characters and 5 lilies to check, my best result was 31 pipes for ONE Mil lily. (Results have varied so that once I wasted about 50 pipes with NO lilies)

With no piping at all, my best results were 8 full runs for ONE Mil Lily. Consider a full run to be something about 50 - 115 min. long activity, and you'll see that my suggestion optimizes the "timeframe x optic damage" proportion.

Why don't all of you just try out my suggestion ONCE instead of repeating to me what you've read in guides when I am OPENLY citing those same guides and challenging their info?

Whoever tries it this way will find the lilies, I guarantee. That, or your money back http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[Nitro Vordex]

Has anybody tried this method yet? It looks good, althought already said, it's still random.

About the disc wear. Pretty much, if you keep piping, you're making the laser do more work in a shorter amount of time.
Sure, Nintendo products are hardy, bu tthey still wear.

[Splash]

On 2008-05-04 20:42, Gabriel wrote:
Uh huh
Too bad the "quick" part destroys your console, and the "efficient" part is QUESTIONABLE AT BEST compared to my results with this method.
That's obviously the side-effects, but it is still the definition of "piping", which your method fails at defining. A slow process and the necessity to walk around to other rooms is not "piping".


And the actual presence of eleven lilies makes the appearance of a rare one easier to force, I don't know why, but I know for a fact it really does.
Because you get 11 at a time as oppose to 5, which if you simply look at it, seems to be better. But you also need to consider the time factor and utilizing 5 Lilies in one room is far more effective than utilizing 11 Lilies spread out to three rooms.


With three different characters and three different section IDs, using this method, I managed to find two Mil lilies in less than 30 pipes. That can't be a product of random coincidence ou luck.
Luck. I did the 5 Lilies piping two times. Once I got a Mil in 3 pipes. The second time I got a Mil in 7.


With the same three characters and 5 lilies to check, my best result was 31 pipes for ONE Mil lily. (Results have varied so that once I wasted about 50 pipes with NO lilies)
Again, luck, nothing more.


With no piping at all, my best results were 8 full runs for ONE Mil Lily. Consider a full run to be something about 50 - 115 min. long activity, and you'll see that my suggestion optimizes the "timeframe x optic damage" proportion.
In runs, you HAVE to pipe at least once (the transporter between Temple Alpha and Temple Beta) therefore the result for a run is null. And yes again, it is luck.


Why don't all of you just try out my suggestion ONCE instead of repeating to me what you've read in guides when I am OPENLY citing those same guides and challenging their info?
I've already tried it countless of times and it is no better than just piping with 5 Lilies with the exception that it saves your GC a couple of minutes more. All of your info about how it is "better" is inaccurate by itself, and your proof is flawed also.


Whoever tries it this way will find the lilies, I guarantee. That, or your money back http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Where's my money then? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Ithildin]

I was wondering how long it would take you to pick at this thread http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Splash is right tho. The appearance of a rare enemy is RANDOM, therefore UNPREDICTABLE.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ithildin on 2008-05-05 06:22 ]</font>

[3---Hit---U]

Seems like a good idea...

But my temple lily drops suck http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

[AlexCraig]

I find it pretty sad that when someone mentions an alternative to piping, people get uppity and try to say how piping is superior and the other ideas suck (at least that is the vibe I have been getting).

Why not just let it go and let the guy post his guide? If it helps someone, great! There is no need for the arguements.

[Nitro Vordex]

On 2008-05-05 16:19, AlexCraig wrote:
I find it pretty sad that when someone mentions an alternative to piping, people get uppity and try to say how piping is superior and the other ideas suck (at least that is the vibe I have been getting).

Why not just let it go and let the guy post his guide? If it helps someone, great! There is no need for the arguements.

That never happens with Splash anyways. >_>

I like this idea, it's actually really good. It makes sense IF YOU'RE NOT IN A TIME CONSTRAINT. T_T

Even though I haven't tried it myself.

[Splash]

I find it pretty sad that when someone mentions an alternative to piping, people get uppity and try to say how piping is superior and the other ideas suck (at least that is the vibe I have been getting).

Why not just let it go and let the guy post his guide? If it helps someone, great! There is no need for the arguements.
Where is the impression that I was trying to argue? Oh that's right, there isn't. I'm merely giving out FACTS and correcting misinformation. There is a difference between that and arguing.


That never happens with Splash anyways. >_>
Because you apparently couldn't support your own side of the argument since you gave a flawed proof back in that other topic?


EDIT: Quote tags.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Splash on 2008-05-05 17:22 ]</font>

[AlexCraig]

Hence I have edited #3 in my sticky in the hopes that such misinformation no longer becomes an issue. However, as I said, that is only the vibe I have been getting from this.

[Splash]

On 2008-05-05 17:29, AlexCraig wrote:
Hence I have edited #3 in my sticky in the hopes that such misinformation no longer becomes an issue. However, as I said, that is only the vibe I have been getting from this.

Heh, I should probably congratulate you on your guide, as it is becoming a slight successful with the reduction on many of the frequent topics that are listed in your guide.

[Gabriel]

You can increase your chances of finding a Nar but you CANNOT guarantee it within the first 20 pipes.
Yes I can. After getting the same result with three different characters, you can't call it luck anymore. There are many comments ranting about luck and randomness, but my findings state a bit differently. Please try out my suggestion and prove me wrong, or don't post at all. If anyone is to try and help me clear up the data, I'll be glad to hear it. But please don't come in here to repeat what I've read before.


Has anybody tried this method yet? It looks good, althought already said, it's still random.
Thanks for giving me a thought-out answer instead of vomiting pipe theory.


Seems like a good idea...
But my temple lily drops suck
Yep, mine too http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif, which is why I'm not trying again so soon... I was hoping for someone here to come up with a better idea for the other rare monsters as well, I wouldn't mind going through a whole caves 1 and 2 if a certain room in cv3 left out better odds of finding slimes (just like my suggestion, maybe finding an open room in which there are two slimes and another with more slimes... any combination that would make up to 12 or more chances per pipe).

[Gabriel]

A slow process and the necessity to walk around to other rooms is not "piping"
Huh, now I'm presented with TEH definition of piping... When is it going to be in the Houaiss? Have you found it on dictionary.com? Oh no, don't tell me... The BRITANNICA. It must be them.
You know what? Don't call it piping then. Call it... Telepiping. Or monomating. Or dimating, ryukering, shifting, megiding, staratomizing, Gabriel-ing, whatever.


Luck. I did the 5 Lilies piping two times. Once I got a Mil in 3 pipes. The second time I got a Mil in 7.That gives ME the higher ground in terms of experience.
You did it twice, I did it five times.
You tried for 10 pipes, I tried for over 200 pipes.
Therefore, my experience will count a lot more than yours, and unless you try out my method and actually prove it wrong, there's NOTHING you can say that will even scratch my point.
And BTW, your results seem made up. Not because they're (way too) spectacular, not because they're 100 times better than mine (guess my luck is pretty shitty, huh?), but because you're only mentioning them now and in MY thread, when you could've used them as basis for defending your point of view on the other 'pipe trick' thread. Since you only decided to share that information with us now, it screams 'made up' to me. It really does.


Splash and other users also said:
BS yadda yadda BS luck BS yadda BS luck yadda yadda BS BS BS BS yadda luck yadda yadda BS luck yadda BS luck yadda yadda BS BS BS luck BS BS BS BS luck luck luck luck luck luck luck luck luck luckBleh
I'm tired of repeating the same thing over and over: don't challenge my suggestion with 'piping theory', APPLY it in practical terms and see for yourselves. If I got SIX lilies within the same timeframe and pipecount, with three different characters, it ISN'T luck. STOP SAYING IT'S LUCK, if you haven't even tried (and besides it makes you sound stupid).

Think about it: if it were exclusively up to luck, someone would've found a group of 5 rare lilies. I mean, it's luck, right? It's random, right? Or not.
Sometimes, if you put your playlist on TRUE RANDOM, there's a small chance you'll hear the same song twice in a row... Because it's random. However, some "random" play modes skip the tracks that have already been played, only returning to them after all the others have already been played too. I think this is sorta the case with the 11 lilies: They probably raise the odds a bit, like, up to 11 (or maybe 5.5) out of 512. Then it resets as soon as you set foot on P2, but it's still better than 5 (or 2.5) out of 512.



the actual presence of 11 lilies makes the appearance of a rare one easier to force
Because you get 11 at a time as oppose to 5, which if you simply look at it, seems to be better. But you also need to consider the time factor (sure, but you've just admitted 11 lilies make it easier to force a rare lily appearance)
I've already tried it countless (but you said TWO times?) times and it is no better than just piping with 5 Lilies (you just said it is) with the exception that it saves your GC a couple of minutes more.
All of your info about how it is "better" is inaccurate by itself (but you just agreed with me 2 quotes ago), and your proof is flawed also (and that comes from someone who claims to have tried the pipe trick two times?).
Now THAT'S being incoherent - you've just contradicted YOURSELF 3 times in the same post. I don't even need to argue with you, I just have to keep listening and then say "you're right" with good timing.

The thing is, time is exactly the danger about the pipe trick. My suggestion is simply made to
1) raise the odds of finding a lily while, at the same time;
2) give you something else to do down there instead of going right back to P2 and damaging your console.

Whatever extra time this takes is nothing compared to destroying your GC or being frustrated over 30 pipes wasted for zero lilies. This eliminates the two greatest disadvantages of the pipe trick: the inconsistency and the console damage. If it takes longer, what can you do? At least now you have a real middle option instead of "destroyconsoleandfindrares"x"takefullrunsandneverfindrares"


Where's my money then? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Here's all the money you gave me: 0 meseta.
All back in one piece for you http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

Forgive me if I sounded too aggressive, but you'd read my post at the other pipe trick thread, so I expected you to know where this idea had come from... And then you go and post the same thing that two other people had already posted. It was just disappointing, that's all.
Sorry.

(and sorry for double-posting, I wasn't sure if there's a character count limit here)

[Nitro Vordex]

On 2008-05-06 01:38, Gabriel wrote:
Whatever extra time this takes is nothing compared to destroying your GC or being frustrated over 30 pipes wasted for zero lilies. This eliminates the two greatest disadvantages of the pipe trick: the inconsistency and the console damage. If it takes longer, what can you do? At least now you have a real middle option instead of "destroyconsoleandfindrares"x"takefullrunsandneverfindrares"

This whole post=Win.

That's what I was looking for, an "EFFECTIVE" (I hate that word so much thanks to Splash) way to find rare monsters. When I get my GC back, I'll report my findings to you, Gabriel, and help you out with your stats.

[Splash]

On 2008-05-06 01:11, Gabriel wrote:

Yes I can. After getting the same result with three different characters, you can't call it luck anymore. There are many comments ranting about luck and randomness, but my findings state a bit differently. Please try out my suggestion and prove me wrong, or don't post at all. If anyone is to try and help me clear up the data, I'll be glad to hear it. But please don't come in here to repeat what I've read before.

I already did. 3 times as a result still means absolutely nothing, considering the basis of finding a rare monster is luck involved which you continue to deny.




Huh, now I'm presented with TEH definition of piping... When is it going to be in the Houaiss? Have you found it on dictionary.com? Oh no, don't tell me... The BRITANNICA. It must be them.

It's an 8-10 year old game where piping was found way before, thus establishing the definition. Also, using dictionary.com against me is irrelevant considering how it is a PSO specific term, thus in the matter, has no involvement with the common dictionary.




You know what? Don't call it piping then. Call it... Telepiping. Or monomating. Or dimating, ryukering, shifting, megiding, staratomizing, Gabriel-ing, whatever.

That's what you said, not me.




That gives ME the higher ground in terms of experience.

You did it twice, I did it five times.

You tried for 10 pipes, I tried for over 200 pipes.

No it doesn't, I was proving that it took less pipes to do on 5 Lilies than your so called "less than 30" with the 11 Lilies.




Therefore, my experience will count a lot more than yours, and unless you try out my method and actually prove it wrong, there's NOTHING you can say that will even scratch my point.

No, what you are proving is that I'm right with how it is considered luck and your 200 pipes over my 9 pipes supports that. Furthermore, if you actually read, I did do your method "countless of times" with no results in the first 30 pipes, resulting that your proof is nothing but mere coincidence.




And BTW, your results seem made up. Not because they're (way too) spectacular, not because they're 100 times better than mine (guess my luck is pretty shitty, huh?), but because you're only mentioning them now and in MY thread, when you could've used them as basis for defending your point of view on the other 'pipe trick' thread.

I could have, but the fact that the other person in that other thread is a joke and keeps being blind to the fact that runs are supposedly "faster" in his eyes, I took to it a larger extent which he couldn't prove back.



And no they are not made up, you could always ask other people how many pipes it took them with 5 Lilies. And with "other people", I mean old time people who has played the game during the time when this method was found (i.e. the beginning of PSO during DC days).




Since you only decided to share that information with us now, it screams 'made up' to me. It really does.

Because it is relevant to the topic and ultimately backs up my point.




Bleh

I'm tired of repeating the same thing over and over: don't challenge my suggestion with 'piping theory', APPLY it in practical terms and see for yourselves. If I got SIX lilies within the same timeframe and pipecount, with three different characters, it ISN'T luck. STOP SAYING IT'S LUCK, if you haven't even tried (and besides it makes you sound stupid).
Says the person who is in denial still. Face it, the entire game is focused on luck, but you are too damn ignorant to notice it. Also, I'll bring back the original quote that I said in response to a portion of what you said:

Gabriel wrote:
Why don't all of you just try out my suggestion ONCE instead of repeating to me what you've read in guides when I am OPENLY citing those same guides and challenging their info?

Splash wrote:I've already tried it countless of times and it is no better than just piping with 5 Lilies with the exception that it saves your GC a couple of minutes more. All of your info about how it is "better" is inaccurate by itself, and your proof is flawed also.


The "countless of times" is in reference to your suggestion.



Think about it: if it were exclusively up to luck, someone would've found a group of 5 rare lilies. I mean, it's luck, right? It's random, right? Or not.
Yes it is, but the chances of seeing 5 rare lilies is near impossible. There is a difference between what sounds reasonable and what sounds impossible, and seeing 5 rare Lilies in a row in a room is near impossible. On the other hand, seeing 2 rare Lilies in the same room at the same time is possible and I actually have a picture to prove that (I'll find it and post it later). The chances of 2 rare Lilies appearing in the same room is luck. If it isn't, then finding 2 rare Lilies in the same room at the same time would be a cinch which is obviously a lie.



Sometimes, if you put your playlist on TRUE RANDOM, there's a small chance you'll hear the same song twice in a row... Because it's random. However, some "random" play modes skip the tracks that have already been played, only returning to them after all the others have already been played too. I think this is sorta the case with the 11 lilies: They probably raise the odds a bit, like, up to 11 (or maybe 5.5) out of 512. Then it resets as soon as you set foot on P2, but it's still better than 5 (or 2.5) out of 512.
Each Lily has a 1/512 chance of being rare and the number "1/512" is a probability as well, meaning it is not a definite result and this probability is not mixed with other. If there were 512 Lilies in the same room, there is always the possibility that none of them are rare. This is in theory obviously, and unless you could prove me wrong that in a room with 512 Lilies there will ALWAYS be one in such a swarm, your explanation is null.




Because you get 11 at a time as oppose to 5, which if you simply look at it, seems to be better. But you also need to consider the time factor (sure, but you've just admitted 11 lilies make it easier to force a rare lily appearance)
No, what I admitted is that the absent-minded who only looks only at the quantity amount proves themselves that they are arrogant to that factor who does not want to add in other factors which will affect the outcome. The ignorant people would say "lolz 11 is more than 5" while the more attentive ones would say "You could see 15 Lilies in the same amount of time you would see 11".



I've already tried it countless (but you said TWO times?) times and it is no better than just piping with 5 Lilies (you just said it is) with the exception that it saves your GC a couple of minutes more.
Again no, read what I said above. And for the two times, apparently, you can't read.




All of your info about how it is "better" is inaccurate by itself (but you just agreed with me 2 quotes ago), and your proof is flawed also (and that comes from someone who claims to have tried the pipe trick two times?).
You can't read, interpret, etc.




Now THAT'S being incoherent - you've just contradicted YOURSELF 3 times in the same post. I don't even need to argue with you, I just have to keep listening and then say "you're right" with good timing.
Because apparently you can't interpret posts correctly? Your assumption that I contradicted myself is false and doesn't mean a thing.




The thing is, time is exactly the danger about the pipe trick. My suggestion is simply made to

1) raise the odds of finding a lily while, at the same time;
Odds =/= Probability, which you seemed to rant on about.



2) give you something else to do down there instead of going right back to P2 and damaging your console.
You already said this, but I didn't see what you were trying to argue about with this.




Whatever extra time this takes is nothing compared to destroying your GC or being frustrated over 30 pipes wasted for zero lilies.
Or 1 pipe with 1 rare Lily to show if you are lucky.


This eliminates the two greatest disadvantages of the pipe trick: the inconsistency and the console damage. If it takes longer, what can you do? At least now you have a real middle option instead of "destroyconsoleandfindrares"x"takefullrunsandneverfindrares"
Your basis that it is considered "better" is invalid which is why I'm debating this, providing with you examples that your accusation is false. Yet you are not even proving that I am wrong and you still stand out your ignorance.

[Gabriel]

That gives ME the higher ground in terms of experience.
You did it twice, I did it five times.
You tried for 10 pipes, I tried for over 200 pipes.No it doesn't, I was proving (lol stating = proving now?) that it took less pipes to do on 5 Lilies than your so called "less than 30" with the 11 Lilies.
Now here's the million dollar question: If you were stating as an undeniable fact that it's all up to luck, how can you state that one of them is actually faster than the other? After all, in your words (or other luck-only supporters), it's all up to luck, so "you could pipe 5000 times and find nothing" or "pipe once and find a rare". Then just call this one an alternative. With the disadvantage of taking longer, but doing less damage to the console. These are facts, which you cannot deny (but of course you'll probably try to), and their interpretation is open to people. You can still think that piping is better - and I will agree, as I have from the start, that regular piping is the fastest option. However, many people (like me) will consider the risk of destroying the videogame too great a disadvantage to actually do the pipe trick.

My "better way" to do the pipe trick in the temple is just an attempt to reach the intersection of both methods.


I am rightAre not.


Am tooAre not.

Am tooAre not.

Am tooAre not.

Am tooAre not.

Am tooAre not.
...


'lolz', 'you are too damn ignorant', 'person still in denial', 'absent-minded', 'ignorant people', 'can't read', 'can't interpret'
[Retort].


When I get my GC back, I'll report my findings to you, Gabriel, and help you out with your stats.
Thanks, my friend, I hope it works for you as fine as it worked for me http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif And remember not to go back to the Temple immediately after your character shows up in P2... I want your gc to stay healthy http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Gabriel on 2008-05-06 14:10 ]</font>

[AlexCraig]

*Sigh* You see? This is EXACTLY what I was talking about. This has turned from a simple guide for people who want to do things another way into an arguement between "better" and "efficient".

Seriously, guys, cut the crap and let it drop. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_mad.gif

[Splash]

On 2008-05-06 14:06, Gabriel wrote:
No it doesn't, I was proving (lol stating = proving now?) that it took less pipes to do on 5 Lilies than your so called "less than 30" with the 11 Lilies.
Now here's the million dollar question: If you were stating as an undeniable fact that it's all up to luck, how can you state that one of them is actually faster than the other?[/quote]
When did I state that finding a rare monster was faster with 5 Lilies? I said that piping with 5 Lilies is faster in one room is faster than piping 11 Lilies scattered in 3 rooms. And if you can't read (which you proved already), I was talking about the piping process.

The ultimate effect that results of piping 5 Lilies is that you see more of them in a relatively fast time thus implying by your logic, it would increase the chances of said rare Lily. So you are either contradicting what you said earlier or just supporting what I said.


After all, in your words (or other luck-only supporters), it's all up to luck, so "you could pipe 5000 times and find nothing" or "pipe once and find a rare".
The truth hurts doesn't it?


Then just call this one an alternative.
Alternative, fine. "Better" method, no.


With the disadvantage of taking longer, but doing less damage to the console.
I already agree on to the fact that the beneficial thing of spreading through 3 rooms is that it would survive your GC some minutes longer so I don't see why this is necessary to be brought up. That's it though, there is nothing else "better" about the 11 Lilies method.


These are facts, which you cannot deny (but of course you'll probably try to),
No, I already accepted the flaws of piping way back in my second post in this topic. The only person in denial right now is you.


and their interpretation is open to people. You can still think that piping is better - and I will agree, as I have from the start, that regular piping is the fastest option.
If you did, then why exactly are you debating me on this?


However, many people (like me) will consider the risk of destroying the videogame too great a disadvantage to actually do the pipe trick.
Is that not obvious? My primary point in this debate is the fact that the only beneficial thing out of your 11 Lilies method is that it saves the console from being destroyed quickly. Your other points on how it is considered "better" are wrong.


My "better way" to do the pipe trick in the temple is just an attempt to reach the intersection of both methods.
"Intersection" =/= "Better"



I am rightAre not.

Am tooAre not.

Am tooAre not.

Am tooAre not.

Am tooAre not.

Am tooAre not.
...

'lolz', 'you are too damn ignorant', 'person still in denial', 'absent-minded', 'ignorant people', 'can't read', 'can't interpret'
[Retort].
Are you finally admitting that you are wrong then?



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Splash on 2008-05-06 16:41 ]</font>

[Nitro Vordex]

For the love of god, do you really have nothing better to do but dissect everyone's posts? This is rediculous!

All he did was state a different way to find rare monsters. He's been around here since DC days, so I'd give him credit. He'd prolly be playing anyways, despite not coming to the site as often. Sure, he said something was guarenteed, when it's random, but there's no reason to be an ass about it either.

One more thing, quit being an elistist. Right now you're just coming off as a pompous ass. It's an alternate way of finding rare monsters, let him use his method. Who cares if it's slower or faster? It's better than piping back and forth looking stupid. Stop sticking to the guides, and start opening yourself a little.

Just to let you know, Gabriel, I support this idea. Although, I could've sworn that whatever ID you got determined the map you got. Someone please refresh my memory.

[Splash]

On 2008-05-06 17:29, Nitro_Vordex wrote:
For the love of god, do you really have nothing better to do but dissect everyone's posts? This is rediculous!
It's entertaining.


All he did was state a different way to find rare monsters.
Oh sure he did. If he just posted that, I would have been fine. Trying to give an implication that it is better is not.


He's been around here since DC days, so I'd give him credit.
1 person =/= the entire group who has played just as long as he did


He'd prolly be playing anyways, despite not coming to the site as often.
Ok, doesn't concern me.


Sure, he said something was guarenteed, when it's random, but there's no reason to be an ass about it either.
The fact that it was him who wanted to start the debate says that you are implying that he is an ass also.


One more thing, quit being an elistist.
Lolz, then are you one of those ignorant people who can't support their own opinion? Elistist to your eyes, I call it facing the facts and the truth.


Right now you're just coming off as a pompous ass.
Says the person who can't support their own opinion correctly.


It's an alternate way of finding rare monsters, let him use his method.
Did I say that it was the wrong way? No I didn't. Lolz at your fail assumptions.


Who cares if it's slower or faster?
Those who are trying to look for specific rares and not waste 10 hours when you could be doing it in 7.


It's better than piping back and forth looking stupid. Stop sticking to the guides, and start opening yourself a little.
Too bad the guides are more informative than you are and your ignorance to the game mechanics.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Splash on 2008-05-06 17:43 ]</font>

[AlexCraig]

*Mod Alerts* This has degenerated enough. All I am seeing now is the makings of a flame war.

OP: Nice guide. I am sure some people will use it. That does not mean you should have to fight with people who don't like it.

Splash: Get over it and yourself. Let it be. Nitro is right with what he said. We don't need you starting crap. And while you can use facts to try and prove/disprove something, we don't need it here. You've made your point. Move along.

[3---Hit---U]

oh.
ehm.
gee.

This is getting out of hand now -.-

Let me try and fix! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

5 Lilies = faster

Gabriels guide = better chance of having one spawn

@ a 1/512 chance

5 lilies = probability of 102.4 pipes
11 lilies = probability 46.54 pipes

Wear on system
5 lilies = more wear w/ same number of pipes
11 lilies = less wear w/ same number of pipes

More PIPE EFFICIENT
okay this is the tricky one.
its for letters
L
U
C
K
.


Now I would also like to show you three words in this post I used they are:
Luck
& Chance
& Probability

Luck is Luck...
Chance is a chance something will happen
Probability is like chance

*NONE OF THE ABOVE ARE DEFINITE AND SET IT STONE*

*The above may not happen.*

Well now that I tried to make a hopefull contructive post, time for Splash to tear it apart :|

[Ketchup345]

Some criticism is best kept to yourself. Let people learn about slight modifications to the pipe trick.