Some advice to a Guntecher

[Stryker Diaz]

well recently I changed to WT and hated it beyond reason, so now im changing back to my GT ^^ now ive seen a few of them use traps Oo; is it more efficiant to use traps? or is it just a luxury to have at times?

[Arada]

For me, it's a luxury to have at time as my guns usually put the SE I wish to see on the mobs.

Still, some of them are imune to the low SE you have at the beginning so traps are cool then. Otherwise, I mostly never use them.

[Magus_84]

I use them quite often. Shielded enemies are immune to bullet SEs. Especially with shielded casters also taking half damage from bullets (hi2uVanda), this is a problem. Confuse Trap G shuts them down, allowing you to work without threat of death by Diga or Foie. For a little bit, anyway.

Burn Trap G are great for getting a Burn SE started on a big enemy, before you get the chance to stick a higher level one with a Rifle, Bow or Foie. Also good for weakening groups of shielded enemies.

Freeze Trap G are a great kind of "panic button". They'll stop whatever's attacking you, at least for a few seconds. Gives enough time to rebuff during a fight or heal a teammate. They also work very well with some of the forward-firing SUVs, locking enemies in place to be shredded.

Damage Trap G are rather limited in use, but fun. I typically only use them against big things, setting several at once to get a good first hit in, then finishing them off with gunfire. They can also be useful in positioning enemies for teammates to level PAs on, or thinning out huge crowds.

Sleep Trap G only have one realistic use that I've found so far, and that's to help set up Jabroga for teammates. Other than that, don't bother buying them.

Poison Trap G are occasionally useful for when you run out of Burn Trap G, but Poison kinda sucks. I usually leave these in the shop too.

I would at least suggest carrying Confuse G, Burn G and Freeze G. The regular traps aren't worth the cost.

[panzer_unit]

Damage and Poison (and Silence) traps launch their victims into the air.
That's all the stopping power you need against midsize mobs sometimes.

[nyoro_n]

Traps are nice at times but usually i don't need them when i'm in a full group with friends and PTs. I ususally use them on mini-bosses if anything.

[Arada]

I use them quite often. Shielded enemies are immune to bullet SEs. Especially with shielded casters also taking half damage from bullets (hi2uVanda), this is a problem. Confuse Trap G shuts them down, allowing you to work without threat of death by Diga or Foie. For a little bit, anyway

True but then the techer part of the class becomes truly useful and you can then damage them or even SE them sometimes (though with low level attack techs it doesn't happen that much...).

GunTecher is a good class because it can pretty efficiently go around the shielded enemies thanks to the techs.

[Seority]

Traps are always useful.
GT's are not.

If you really enjoy playing it, then I'd advise you use traps and get the full advantage out of being a GT (Whatever you think it is).

[CeruleanWitch]

I don't know what it is, but GT and WT are the only two techer classes I can't stand using.

[Realmz]

I don't know what it is, but GT and WT are the only two techer classes I can't stand using.

huh i wonder why some people are like that.

i love my WT, Recca smashes things with fists, claws and daggers, and if that don't work, she blows them up with techs. then she heals and does it over again :3

[amtalx]

I don't know what it is, but GT and WT are the only two techer classes I can't stand using.

Probably becasue their damage output is garbage. :disapprove:

All I can think when I'm using those classes is "this would be going much faster if I were any other class."

Anyway, about the traps. Traps were useful when everything didn't die before the game can even load the model. Occasionaly, I'll throw Burn on a large creature like a Gol Dova. Otherwise, whatever you are trying to kill will die faster if you use the direct route.

[TakNatali]

Seority:
Traps are always useful.
GT's are not.

GTs aren't useful? GT is the only class i've found that actually uses resta/buffs throughout the entire run other than using attack techs constantly and not caring about your teammates. GT isn't the greatest solo class because it is a "support" class. Moderate bullet damage, huge SE potential and some of the highest support techs in the game. GT > you, kthx.

[panzer_unit]

Probably becasue their damage output is garbage. :disapprove:

All I can think when I'm using those classes is "this would be going much faster if I were any other class."

Anyway, about the traps. Traps were useful when everything didn't die before the game can even load the model. Occasionaly, I'll throw Burn on a large creature like a Gol Dova. Otherwise, whatever you are trying to kill will die faster if you use the direct route.

Wait... you have problems with (GT) damage output EVEN THOUGH monsters are dead before the game loads their models? How does that work out?

You don't need to generate the maximum amount of damage per character to kill monsters quickly... 2 fortes will do it. Supposing Hybrids are only 2/3 as damaging as Fortes (I think it's more) it only takes 3 hybrids to get the same damage output, and meanwhile the mission goes more smoothly because of their additional abilities.

Freeze traps are good, anything that lets your Fighter teammates get through their big PA's uninterrupted are good.

[amtalx]

Wait... you have problems with (GT) damage output EVEN THOUGH monsters are dead before the game loads their models? How does that work out?

You don't need to generate the maximum amount of damage per character to kill monsters quickly... 2 fortes will do it. Supposing Hybrids are only 2/3 as damaging as Fortes (I think it's more) it only takes 3 hybrids to get the same damage output, and meanwhile the mission goes more smoothly because of their additional abilities.

Freeze traps are good, anything that lets your Fighter teammates get through their big PA's uninterrupted are good.

I solo now mostly, due to the lack of difficulty. I move MUCH faster as a fG/PT than as a GT.

Freeze Trap EXs are nice, but Freeze Gs don't make me feel safe. Enemies come out of the freeze if you look at them funny. I use Gs everynow and then when I need to start Majarra without getting cancelled when soloing, but in a group, the freeze is broken as soon as you detonate the trap.

[Gen2000]

If there is a PT in the party, fallback otherwise...

Burn G for shield enemies, otherwise Fire Xbow will set any enemy on on fire just as fast.
Freeze G for certain trouble enemies to keep them in check, the more members in the party the less useful they become though.
Confusion G, it only rocks vs. Vanda Orges on S/S2 imo and that's only if you use on when they first spawn (they will damfoie the shit out of each other making a very fast kill sweep of em).

Those are the 3 I mainly use. Damage G and Poison G pops enemies up or knocks em down, vs. certain enemies this is better than Freeze G. Poison G's SE is the most hated in the game though so best to avoid that one if choosing between those two.

[stukasa]

Traps are still useful but not as much as they used to be. DoT traps (Burn, Virus) are useful on enemies with high STA. Zamvapas (the horse thing in light Relics) is a good example. Freeze and Confuse traps are useful against dangerous mobs, like packs of buffed Vahras, Vanda Orgas, and Gaozoran. As a GT you can't use Virus, Shock or Silence, but you can still use the rest.

[Criss]

People who think GTs are weak and only good for support have obviously never played a good one. Sure, their damage isn't quite as high as some other classes, but it's certainly good enough to deal consistent damage and kill things not that much slower than a fG. And GTs also have the advantage of being able to easily deal with most bullet-resistant enemies by using techs. Polavohra problem? Use (nos)diga. Kamatoze annoyance? Use foie. Etc.

Really, I don't see how dealing 650~700 x3 damage per card shot without ATP-boosting unit can be weak. Especially since I have a giresta/reverser wand with it that I can use to heal up you damage magnets or save you from freeze/stun death with reverser in a split second between shots.

You're right, GTs aren't meant for pure damage, they're meant for versatility. But they certainly are far from useless in the damage department. That said, GTs are a great class if you don't mind giving up a little bit of gun damage for good atk techs and excellent support. If you're not a DPS elitist or feel like doing more than pressing the same attack button and changing weapons once in a while, GTs is the perfect class.

But anyways, back to the subject of traps... it's completely up to you and your playstyle. I personally stopped using traps, although I keep Freeze G traps on me just in case. I don't think they're really necessary, but you might find them more useful than I do. But GTs have so many things they can do in so many situations, you sometimes won't even think about those traps. :p

[MSAksion]

Agree. I BARELY use Traps unless its a very dire situation. Dire as in that annoying VAHRA room in MAG. Freeze Traps are a must in there. Remember GT can only use the basics like BURN, FREEZE, SLEEP (LOL sleep) and POISON.

Crossbows Lvl 21+ Status 3 are your real source of "trap status" With 3 bolts at lvl 21+ and status level 3 you wont ever really need traps. Shoot a monster less than a dozen times and you will land the status. Enemy STA has been reduced by Sega thank god. You can easily burn a Gol Dova, freeze a Pollovahra or even Confuse Gaozorans with just your crossbow.

GT Mobility and speed makes up for Less Damage. As a HUMAN Girl (LOL a Human xD) on GT 20 mode i can pump say 350DMG times 3 bolts from a crossbow point blank at an enemy WITH status 3 effect. I can sit back even at medium range and Freeze or Burn 3 targets every pew pew pew.

GT have much Stat & ability love from Sega. ForteTecher level Healing and Buffs of 30. Fortegunner lvl 40 Bullets. With the TP boost and the promise of lvl 30 techs i now for some reason have more TP than a WT (WT gets no love from SEGAC) NosDiga and Foie are so BOSS (love the word BOSS) that you dont even need things like say a RIFLE because TECHS do so much in one shot versus standing still for so long.

Stay mobile with Cards, Crossbows, M-guns, Shadoogs and Wands. Throw one tech then move in with one hand guns that can do more damage and do it safely than a close range fortegunner.

A Long Range Fortegunner can easily outdamage a GunTecher. But they can't heal, be very mobile, or use TECHS to supplement Gunfire. its a different Ball game.

[amtalx]

Stay mobile with Cards, Crossbows, M-guns, Shadoogs and Wands. Throw one tech then move in with one hand guns that can do more damage and do it safely than a close range fortegunner.

I agree with most of what you said, but you need to lay off the koltova juice on this one. GT will never under any circumstances outdamage a fG with a gun, ever.

[panzer_unit]

I solo now mostly, due to the lack of difficulty. I move MUCH faster as a fG/PT than as a GT.

Freeze Trap EXs are nice, but Freeze Gs don't make me feel safe. Enemies come out of the freeze if you look at them funny. I use Gs everynow and then when I need to start Majarra without getting cancelled when soloing, but in a group, the freeze is broken as soon as you detonate the trap.

I didn't think GT would be that much slower, but (compared to other gunners) you'd need lv21+ buffs and high level attack techs of every element if you wanted to see it.

I like the non-DOT traps more now that monster life expectancy is so short. You catch a bunch of monsters in a Shock G and they're going to be shocked until they die, give or take, instead of just the first little bit of the fight. Also traps are nice for dropping same-element statuses like shocking lightning mobs. You don't really want to equip a lightning weapon for that.

[amtalx]

I like the non-DOT traps more now that monster life expectancy is so short. You catch a bunch of monsters in a Shock G and they're going to be shocked until they die, give or take, instead of just the first little bit of the fight. Also traps are nice for dropping same-element statuses like shocking lightning mobs. You don't really want to equip a lightning weapon for that.

I've been experimenting with passive SEs too. Silenced Olgohmons and Gaozorans = LOL. It minimizes the amount of time spent trying to throw SE vs. attacking with the proper element.

[Akaimizu]

Traps are quite useful to the Guntecher mainly because of the easy mode for (Other) classes in this game. So yes, it was definitely not a contradiction when someone posted above that the game is easy mode yet the GT suffers from not being able to damage fast enough to even remotely keep up with other classes if they solo a level.

They get a lot closer but only after they've fully levelled a very large amount of PAs. All Gun and Tech PAs, that is. So it'll take a while. At my times of play (which used to be even more than it is now, I'll admit), I'm 1 1/2 years into it, and I still have plenty of levelling work to do. I've raised a ton of stuff, but plenty have yet to hit max. Always remember, the majority of the GTs ability to do real damage come from their bullet/tech levels first, having at least 21+ buffs on you at all times, and a distant third is your stats.

Traps, while helping the GT with their damage output, in solo cases; has to be used a bit sparingly since the good ones you can only carry five each. I use Poison traps, as well, because they're your only DoT trap you have when the enemy is completely burn resistant.

With a full Party, the debilitating traps like Confuse still have their use when a Protranser isn't going crazy with their EX traps. They often shut down the tech casters long enough for you to attempt to silence them with your crossbow bullets or something. Another use is that they shut down the offense of those who don't shock or silence, and there's plenty of them around.

Tricky part is, to make most efficient use of the traps you gotta learn the level very much like people learn the levels in something like Quake and Unreal Tournament. That way you learn which spawns you should use traps on, and which ones you should not. You only have but a small amount of traps for the level, so you got to prioritize. We don't get silence traps, so if you want to be great at silencing, your best bet is to raise crossbow/ground. By far, the best SE landing function the GT has, at the moment. However, if they're bullet resistant and need to be silenced. Your only bet is confuse traps.

On the other hand, the relative quickness and ease that all those other *damage* classes deal with monsters has really put a savage hurt on the usefulness of Bullet-induced Status effects. Too often, the mobs are dead before you even tactfully engaged the use of a Status Effect. Traps make the SEs hit immediately, without wait. And often enough, those are the only things you can hope to see *ticks* of your status effect actually apply themselves before someone else just plain killed them. (Confuse/Shock/Freeze withstanding)

This is the reason why the cry for stronger monsters, because if we're meant for less damage more status effect, then make the status effect portion more useful, thanks. Don't make bullet status effect become a near useless function otherwise it's not worth the tradeoff. :)

As for GT making speedier runs. Without glitches, the best bet will be the up-n-coming Tech level boost. Already, certain attack techs are helping out, greatly. However, when the level 30s come, then they'll be supplemented with an option for taking down mobs and or groups, just about inline with the rest of the folk. However, GTs still can debilitate quickly. We still have weapons to do that, plus good support techs. In a group, we can definitely hold our own, and still aid others to do what they do, faster. Solowise, well, you won't be getting drops and stuff quite so fast because it takes you longer to get through the level. For now.

[Stryker Diaz]

hmm traps seem usable till I can get my techs and Bullets up, I just started using GT 2 weeks ago but I love it so much since it fits my personality, but since I just started my usefullness in Bullets is low >< so I mainly chill back and buff everyone my pallete is so far, Two Phantoms, Alteri 10/10, Two Magoobs, three wands and a pistol.

[Akaimizu]

Don't worry. Even after your level your bullets, the traps will get some good use. You don't have access to all types of traps, but you'll use plenty of the ones you can use. Mainly on levels in which you can't drop the enemies right away. (S and S2 ranked levels).

For levelling bullets, when you solo, stick with a simple PP/Bullet Save (the Giga version is rather cheap now). Don't bother with power units as you'll run out of bullets very fast on most of your weapons, plus for the sake of levelling bullets, you want the monsters to last longer. Also, for those times, don't use traps. G traps don't really aid most classes to take monsters down faster, right now. However they greatly do aid a Guntecher at taking the monsters down faster. At least, you'll see your DoT traps do their good ticks of damage before you see them go down. So while they're useful for finishing a mission faster, those trap damage numbers will greatly take away from the amount of shots you're using from guns. And the motto is, less shots, less bullet levelling.

If mission speed is your thing, and you're doing S or S2 levels as a GT. Then yep. You'll want those traps.

[Kumlekar]

I didn't think GT would be that much slower, but (compared to other gunners) you'd need lv21+ buffs and high level attack techs of every element if you wanted to see it.

I like the non-DOT traps more now that monster life expectancy is so short. You catch a bunch of monsters in a Shock G and they're going to be shocked until they die, give or take, instead of just the first little bit of the fight. Also traps are nice for dropping same-element statuses like shocking lightning mobs. You don't really want to equip a lightning weapon for that.

As a protranser I also prefer regular traps to G traps. The status lasts far longer, and can be used to put a specific monster out of the fight while you clean up the others. Freeze trap G lasts only for a split second if they're under constant fire, and the damage difference between the two is negliable. 700-800 single target versus 900-1200 total across 4 targets.silenc trap G isn't bad, but I don't know what classes have access to it. Of course i'm usually using EX traps so its often a moot point.

[Akaimizu]

Regular traps on a Guntecher is horrible. Pretty much next to useless. I've never once gotten any mileage out of regular traps with a GT. GTs don't get silence nor virus traps. One of the reasons we keep Poison traps because they are the only damage traps worth using when monsters are fire resistant.

[Kion]

I agree with most of what you said, but you need to lay off the koltova juice on this one. GT will never under any circumstances outdamage a fG with a gun, ever.

that's exactly what Akision said ^^;


A Long Range Fortegunner can easily outdamage a GunTecher. But they can't heal, be very mobile, or use TECHS to supplement Gunfire. its a different Ball game.

GT may never see big numbers, but the damage DPS can still be pretty high. With all of GT's mobile weapons; mechguns, crossbow, card, twinhandgun, they hit the enemy continuously from a distance. We won't see 2k+ criticals like from a figh class, but not having to chase after enemies the damage is applies constantly. doing 450 a hit from a mech gun doesn't look like much, but the DPS is deceptively close and sometimes higher than a fighter who has to keep running after each target. fortegunner is another story; guntecher simply doesn't have the multihit capability with grenades and cannons to compare for over all long distance damage. GT is meant to be able to cast anti or resta quickly so that FF can go back to spamming majarra. The damage that GT doesn't is supplemented by the damage that they boost the entire party with buffs and quick support techs.

For soloing, the one area that GT really falls short in is large enemies. Running into a drua is the worst possible thing that can happen solo. Large enemies are often bullet resistant and techs don't multi hit the same enemy; the only thing left is poking it to death with level 10 skills and low atp. The advice i want to ask is how other GT's out there deal with large enemies.

[Akaimizu]

Drua actually has two good possibilities for a Guntecher. One is safer than the other and can keep up fairly well in the damage game.

First idea:

Rising Strike with a good saber is actually a secret weapon against Druas. This is something, oddly enough, nearly every class in the game can take advantage of. However, Guntecher, like Acrotecher and a few others, can pair this with a Shadoog making this aspect better than without one. That way, with every strike you make, you simply add on whatever extra damage and/or status effects your Shadoog performs with each attack you do. (Most shadoogs, that is. haven't tried them all so some might have slower/worse firing patterns)

Anyway, we know Rising Strike hits up to 3 points on the drua at the same time, for nearly 1000 points of damage at each point. Since the single PA hits twice, you can earn somewhere between 4500- just under 6000 on that combo alone. However, in order to attain that kind of damage, you have to do 1 normal swing first and then Just Attack the PA. (Supplement this with a Shadoog to better guarrantee your damage output)

Not tough to do if only the enemy didn't always swipe at you, you'll have to really set yourself well because it's very easy for the enemy to hit you out of it. Not to mention, watch the enemy pattern so they wont be hitting you out of your normal to Just Attacked Rising Strike.

The bad of this is that even as a level 130/20 Guntecher, it misses way more often than one would like. It especially misses the Knockup ability VERY often. So while it has it's uses on Druas (or any large very slow beast with multiple hit locations that happen to be bullet resistant), for most situations it's a suicide call for a Guntecher to run in there with a Saber. That, or you're plain taking a chance at giving up a lot of damage due to how likely any hit will knock you away from battle. Druas are one of the specific beasts with all of these qualities and if you watch the pattern, actually give you time to use Rising Strike, fail to get the knockdown, and still have time to get away with it.

Second Idea:
Foie/Diga/Nozdiga and Shadoog combo. This, by far, is the most reliable constant bullet-resistant combatant on the GT. Not only do you not have to close in the distance, too much; but when both of your weapons here are trained on one mob, it's fantastic. For DPS, I recommend the fire Shadoog because they set things a-light relatively fast in this game.

It doesn't necessarily have the chance at the big single numbers of a Rising Strike, but it piles on the more constant damage very fast, and from a much safer distance. You have a lot less chance getting knocked out of this combo, as well. A Shadoog/Wand combo with Har/Quick on, with one of these attacks can go anywhere from about 2000 per attack (since the 3 bullet shots, in many Shadoogs, keep up with your single tech casting speed) to maybe about 4000+. It's a tough call because some of those bullet resistant mobs do take SEs handily from Shadoogs. Burn + Shadoog + level 20 tech attacks quickly add up to quite a few thousands in damage within seconds.

To a certain degree, quite possibly keeping up with Gun damage for the GT, at the moment. The only bad thing is that you have to switch away from guns to take care of *certain* mobs, but those are two options. Though the Wand+Shadoog combo actually has more useful situations than the Saber+Shadoog combo.

[panzer_unit]

For soloing, the one area that GT really falls short in is large enemies. Running into a drua is the worst possible thing that can happen solo. Large enemies are often bullet resistant and techs don't multi hit the same enemy; the only thing left is poking it to death with level 10 skills and low atp. The advice i want to ask is how other GT's out there deal with large enemies.

Burn mag + Nosdiga/Diga/Foie ... whatever's getting a better deal on element.
Burn mag + proper element Ra- ... against multiple targets.

- or for casts -

Burn, Debuff DFP (makes a big diff), go proper-element Shotgun ... aim so your outside bullets strike 2 adjacent targets directly, the middle ones will probably all count double. Even half damage should be like 8x300 for a 130/20 character.

[Akaimizu]

Funny thing is, I'm seeing the results of the tech/shadoog combo I really utilized more after the TP update. It's putting me more in the idea that once the level 30 techs come out, the GT will be techgunners more than guntechers. The only exception is that it's more dangerous to use techs, but with fortetechers having plenty of options to go through levels faster, I think quite a few GTs will simply utilize more offensive techs simply for faster level runs. At least for levels where killer shot doesn't pay off. That'll be a while, though. Too busy raising PAs than to spend all that time not raising PAs because of Kilelr shot.

[Gen2000]

Druas are a joke even with GT. Fire Xbow/Burn G > JA'd Hikai/Shunbu from high % dagger them to death...or Nanoblast (if Beast, in my case).

[Akaimizu]

If you want to rely only on the Burn, it takes a lot longer. Druas are bullet resistant so most techs greatly outdamage even a fully levelled Xbow, in that situation. We're living in a current game situation where tick damage, while decent for Guntecher, takes a far back seat to the speed you get with direct damage.

If the burn damage is your primary method of taking the mob down faster, you're going too slow. Going the melee setup or the tech aspect (paired with Shadoog) gives you direct damage that far outpaces the burn tick damage. With Crossbow, you're just supplementing tick damage with a little extra bullet damage.

Nanoblast and SUV are options for Beasts and Casts, though I don't know how often you're likely to use them in a level, so I'm not sure how much that'll help you.

On the other hand, I'm not sure how much the Shadoog/Wand damage combo goes down when using a Beast or Cast in this. A fire shadoog should put plenty of burn SE no matter who uses it, though. It may be yet another reason for such different setups depending on what race you play as your Guntecher.

[Gen2000]

Lol, It's not relying only on Burn. Re-read. The main damage is from melee, Burn just stacks on top of that. Fire Xbow sets the enemy ablaze only within 1-3 shots and obviously Burn G is instant SE. Bullet resistant doesn't matter in this case.

Hikai/Shunbu is better than tech damage even as Newman.

[Akaimizu]

So is Rising Strike, technically, on Druas. However, those are severely situational so I gave the Tech advice on plenty of Bullet resistant creatures that aren't Druas. Being knocked away trying to utilize a JAd melee on a Guntecher practically ruins the attempt, in comparison. The other one has more application due to concerns of not getting interrupted or less having to wait for a pattern.

I just mentioned about Xbow because while it's quick on setting burn, you definitely want to supplement a strong tech or melee for all the hits once it burns. Some shadoogs are nearly as quick at landing burn.

[Niloklives]

rising strike only hits 2 points at most, not 3. but I agree its a good option for a GT. Hikai i would advixe against simply because what makes rising and shunbu so good is the knock-up or flip effect it has on those larger enemies. if you're going to go as far as to melee them, try to keep them off their feet.

in a solo situation, really I think the worst enemy of the GT is the Svaltus and the Grinna Bete. while they aren't tech resistant, they're persistant with their attacks and make it difficult to stand still long enough to cast. For many, this almost forces a melee situation, or in the very least running around looking for a safe spot.

To make it worse, they're immune to burn and poison, Grinna bete S is immune to virus and even with the SE boosts we got, i have to this day never been able to stick virus on a svaltus without a trap(which GT can't use)...I'm not sure what their stamina is...but its unnatural...

everything else you have options. techs and a shadoog work quite well. i actually love GT with sonichi in a solo situation since it downs enemies on hit making it easier to throw out a few techs/ this is great on bil de vears and kagajibari which would normally run through your techs and are normally ill-advisable to melee as a GT. the down effect staggers them and keeps them from spinning while applying jellen to soften any hits they might actually get. meanwhile you're throwing out foie or nosdiga. with relative safety.

[Akaimizu]

I actually use Nosdiga on Grinna Bete S. Not the best thing in the world to hit with, but it seems to do the job. I also pair it with the shadoog for nothing else but the extra hits. It's not a lot, but 300-400 extra tack-on damage isn't bad while you're tagging with 1600+ Nozdiga dmg. Once the level 30 techs come out, this will be a different story, altogether.

[panzer_unit]

in a solo situation, really I think the worst enemy of the GT is the Svaltus and the Grinna Bete. while they aren't tech resistant, they're persistant with their attacks and make it difficult to stand still long enough to cast. For many, this almost forces a melee situation, or in the very least running around looking for a safe spot.

Fortunately they're VERY easy to multi-hit with a shotgun. Considering all the melee interruption they do (both of these are a pain to tackle as a fighter, a lot of berzerk rushing and getting smacked down) a shottie's actually among the better options.

[stukasa]

I actually use Nosdiga on Grinna Bete S. Not the best thing in the world to hit with, but it seems to do the job. I also pair it with the shadoog for nothing else but the extra hits. It's not a lot, but 300-400 extra tack-on damage isn't bad while you're tagging with 1600+ Nozdiga dmg. Once the level 30 techs come out, this will be a different story, altogether.
I prefer Diga over Nosdiga when fighting Grinna Betes. Unless you're attacking point-blank from behind, it's very easy to get hit, which stops your casting animation. Nosdiga will disappear the moment you stop casting, whereas once Diga is cast it will continue flying until it hits the target (or misses, depending on your aim :p).

That's for techs, though. For guns I prefer shotgun on Grinna Bete, it usually works pretty well.

[Hrith]

Druas are bullet resistant so most techs greatly outdamage even a fully levelled Xbow, in that situation.Bullets will outdamage techs even if the monster resists bullets =/

Using shotguns for multishooting a Drua Gohra (and the likes) will vastly outdamage techs.

[Niloklives]

Fortunately they're VERY easy to multi-hit with a shotgun. Considering all the melee interruption they do (both of these are a pain to tackle as a fighter, a lot of berzerk rushing and getting smacked down) a shottie's actually among the better options.

actually grinnas as a fighter are easy...rising crush is all you need. svaltus can be taken down with a shotgun, sure, but more GTs prefer not to use a shotty because of teh lack of mobility.

anyway kef, your shotguns vs techs thing I think requires more investigation. you're probably right in the case of a best and definately right in the case of a cast...but as a newman or even a human with a harquick, I wonder if the shotgun really would do the trick...especially after GTs get lvl 30 attack techs.

no sense in debating it now, but I think in this case it may be race specific whether your statement is true or not

[Stryker Diaz]

Being a newman GT for a good while I can safely say Im the quickest to die in any situation, soloing is not an option for me at the moment, bullet PP gets eaten away so quickly that I have that sometimes Photon charges are not enough. PM machine helps sometimes and so do the NPC but they dont cut it, so what should I do? I dont do enough damage so should I just go completely with traps like explained along with Burn/Virus damage? Though Being a newman it gives me a ton of EVA so ya sometimes it pays well to be a Newman but at the same time It blows because of low ATtack anyone got a solution? I know Human would have been a better choice for GT but meh I didnt feel like making another guy.

[Niloklives]

where are you trying to solo? that might give us a better idea of what you should do

[Stryker Diaz]

well I was trying to Do S2 runs by myself on the easy GC level but what kept happening was I would get Bullrushed by the four legged creatures, I cant remember the specific name for that level but they are the dark form, and at the same time I would get tons of Megid thrown at me. Course One rifle isnt expected to hold those things back but the damage I was taking in seconds was ridiculous at times so I had no chance for recovery.

[Niloklives]

what weapons/bullets do you have currently?

[Stryker Diaz]

I have Paralysis on Phantom 1, Silence on Phantom 2, Virus on Alteri 10/10, 2 Shato with buffs and support, 3 A rank wands all support too, and Ruby Bullet with Confusion

[Niloklives]

i assume the silence is for the deljabans...i would probably use something with confuse instead on them...light rifle or light xbow. light dualies if you have them. that long bow is going to hold you back in here, you need mobility.

really on your gt you want the light fast weapons or in the long hallways you can pull out a laser. the seed ardites will fall fast to a shotgun...and the AMF heavy infantry you want again...something fast like xbows and dont stop moving.

if your rifles are lvl 31, they can be used to keep things pinned down, and a sonishi isn't bad for mobs either if you wanted to do some teching...though I'd wait for lvl 30 attack techs to commit to that.

also you are going to hate the boss as you are...iirc she's bullet resistant just about everywhere. if your bullets are sub par I suhhest you leave and get your PAs squared away then come back

[Stryker Diaz]

what im going to try to do right now is lvl up Paralysis and Silence, I have my Ruby bullet with Confusion on it and my bow deals great damage due to def ignore but ya your right im probably going to get rid of my Ruby Bullet and replace it with a S Crossbow and stick a light technique onto it. I dont like using attack Techniques, im all about support Plus those techniques take too long to dish out even with Magoob so usually im overun

[Niloklives]

why i said get a sonishi...it knocks enemies down on hit and jellens them. you'll want to get a har quick and use basic and RA techs. trust me, ou'll be able to put on the hurt after that.

but soloing a tough mission is not a good place to multitask and lvl bullets unless they're already combat ready.

[Hrith]

but as a newman or even a human with a harquick, I wonder if the shotgun really would do the trick...especially after GTs get lvl 30 attack techs.I'm human GT with Har / Quick, so...

Lv40 shotgun bullets do more than twice the damage as Lv40 techs, and GT only gets Lv30 attack tecks (soon enough >_>), therefore it's a clear win for bullets.

Actually, even crossbows, machineguns and twin handguns will outdamage techs on bullet-resistant critters.

Lasers are even more powerful than shotguns, but are not useful in our example.

If you add multishooting with shotguns, you can get twice the damage of techs despite the bullet halfguard.

Blame ST for underpowering techs, but even as GT, Lv10 skills will outdamage Lv30 techs on the same monster. Lv30 attack techs do not make GT better in any way, Lv20 skills would, another awful idea from SEGA.

[Niloklives]

i'm gonna need to see that, cause as of now you're saying that lvl 40 barada diga will beat nos diga in DPS vs a polavohra...and again..thats as a human not as a newman. something doesn't match up there, kef. human GT 130/20 shold oonly have about 1100atp. with 1600 atp (beast FG with HPC) i do about 800-850 damage a hit with a shigga desta+5...that means 4k damage on a polavohra if you hit all 10 times. GT is going to be doing closer to 3k if that and with lvl 30 nosdiga on a tesbra we'f be talking closer to 4-4.5k every casting. now thats on a human. on a newman the atp is lower and the tp is higher I don't know the time comparison off hand, but expect a newman to be doing 2.5k damage or less if it hits all 10 times while that nosdiga will likely be doing over 5k a casting. it really depends on the race and such.

but look I know you like to argue and I'm not going to get into it. race make a difference in play style thats a fact. and that's all I have left to say on the subject

[Para]

Actually, even crossbows, machineguns and twin handguns will outdamage techs on bullet-resistant critters.

For a newman... I would think the damage for a tech attack vs a bullet would be higher. Infact I am pretty sure of this as playing as female newman guntecher and using diga on monsters versus using lv 31+ ground xbow against Gainozeros.

Even using techs against bosses like Alteraz, I would use foie or diga than bullets because the damage is just there, especially with har/quick and its a lot safer to attack with techs considering the distance and no need to consider the different DFP stats for different body parts.

[Hrith]

Damage =/= DPS.

The bigger numbers you get with techs don't mean you kill faster at all.

[Para]

Damage =/= DPS.

The bigger numbers you get with techs don't mean you kill faster at all.

Actually I forgot to mention that the DPS from doing Diga is superior to ground xbow if you consider multiple factors like bullet resistance, tech elemental weakness, har/quick, newman ATP, newman TP etc.

[GH499]

Actually I forgot to mention that the DPS from doing Diga is superior to ground xbow if you consider multiple factors like bullet resistance, tech elemental weakness, har/quick, newman ATP, newman TP etc.
>>>

Obviously, if the enemy is bullet-resist.....

[Hrith]

Actually I forgot to mention that the DPS from doing Diga is superior to ground xbow if you consider multiple factors like bullet resistance, tech elemental weakness, har/quick, newman ATP, newman TP etc.If a human GT kills bullet-resistant monsters much faster with bullet than techs, I doubt it becomes magically the other way around for a newman :roll:

And even if techs did comparable damage as a female newman, there's still shotguns and Yak Zagenga, which leave no chance to techs.

[Kion]

disclaimer: there is no such thing as a newman guntecher.

In the argument of a large single bullet resistant enemy; i'm going to agree with Hirth; hitting only one target on a large enemy with a tech, even with har / quick doesn't quite match the DPS of shotgunning the same enemy or a just attacked hikai. Human is the ideal case to test this on, so i don't think my cast would be pulling out more damage with a wand.
edit : on the other hand... doing tech damage from a safe distance as opposed to getting smacked around would do more dps in that case. i'll chalk this one up to play style.

As far as techs over all; the RCSM / wand combo is nothing to scoff at. Ra techs are a crossbow variation; they hit 3 target with a huge AoE, and SE3. Paired with a constantly firing RCSM; you have a tons of SE spreading capability and easy photon charges. Rather than a crossbow that's effectively a mobile shotgun; ra techs allow you to hit a room all at once. And as far as techs go; nosdigga, megiverse, regrants, dam- techs ect. add to the SE capabilities GT has and increases the effective range the class plays. I'm interested to see how each persons' play style has an impact on the class.

[Hrith]

Ra techs are a crossbow variationWith less than half the DPS, I don't see why a GT would even use an attack technic.

[Kion]

Where are you getting less than half the dps from? My cast does ~450 damage per hit, three hits on level 20 ramegid. Same light enemy my crossbow does the same ~450 per hit three hits. Cast time is a little slower than the firing rate, but the damage from a RCSM generally makes up for that and the increased range and AoE are much appreciated.

[Hrith]

I say you must level up your crossbow PAs, lol.

I play GT on both human and cast (although I rarely play it on my cast), and it's less than half.

[Kion]

Level 20 ramegid on Wagical wand 10/10 with har / quick:
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z88/kion_01/psu20080604_140945_003.jpg

Yak Megida 32 on Cubo Tuma:
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z88/kion_01/psu20080604_140956_004.jpg

Level 25 Yak Zagenga on Cubo Tuma:
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z88/kion_01/psu20080604_141044_008.jpg
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z88/kion_01/psu20080604_141102_011.jpg

Less than half you say? I had to go down to barely any health to out damage it with zagenga.

[Hrith]

You do realise crossbows fire much faster than techs?

Geez, I can't believe I'm dealing with such nubs. Go look up "DPS" before trying to reply.

[Kion]

...Cast time is a little slower than the firing rate, but the damage from a RCSM generally makes up for that

i do realize that.

[panzer_unit]

You do realise crossbows fire much faster than techs?

Geez, I can't believe I'm dealing with such nubs. Go look up "DPS" before trying to reply.

real credible. Got anything credible to back that up with?

That's a Cast getting equal per-hit damage, between crossbow and ra-tech... they're supposed to be excellent gunners and terrible techers, even those guys are managing equal per-hit damage.

I don't see the human/newman stats but tech's going to go way up and guns are going down.
I don't see the additional damage from the wand's linear tech, which you'd have for whenever enemies group up and give a better shot.
I don't see the RCSM damage, especially on human/newm, it's not on par with main weapon but if it's like a free 20% damage output that's too much to ignore.
I don't see the bullet resistant mobs we're supposedly talking about either. I assume that would reduce damage from bullet attacks by half?

[Para]

I guess I have to take some screenshots too just to prove things as well but I am quite sure that using attack techs in some situations really make up for low dps with a xbow and mind you, I do play a newman guntecher... My TP is at 1.7k while my ATP is only at 850. The difference in damage is quite significant.

[Hrith]

That's a Cast getting equal per-hit damage, between crossbow and ra-tech... they're supposed to be excellent gunners and terrible techers, even those guys are managing equal per-hit damage.One of your most stupid reply, and that's a feat.
You quoted exactly what proves you wrong.

I'll make it simpler on your brain: how about you add how many times you fire a crossbow by the time you cast a Ra- tech once?

As for those funny pictures posted above, I do more damage with crossbows as a human female GT, try a fair comparison, next time.

[Kion]

I went back and counted (per 30 seconds)
~35 crossbow shots
~20 tech casts
~25 shotgun blasts

Hrith you may be right, but you're hard to agree with. Backing up your argument with statistics or evidence, rather than calling people names and telling them they're wrong with out any information to support your position would make a much bigger impact.

[Stryker Diaz]

Alright alright guys I went and tried my GT out with different strats, first I tried stacking some Ra into my gameplay which worked out well when I had someone with me, but besides that I was running around half the time trying to get some free space to cast, but in the end it did work out pretty well and it helped me conserve alot of shots from my rifles.

NOW I went and tried the Crossbow and that worked out fairly well do, it inflicted the status effects pretty efficiantly, but it didnt hit as many mobs as I wanted sometimes and ended up causing me to get bum rushed at times.

Both very effective changes for me, even let me put up my great Ruby Bullet for sale xD ima grind it a few times once my luck gets up again and hopefully it will be at 6/10 for 800k.

kk my Summarization of everything is....... both strats are very effective but being a Newman and having lower ATP than a Human its difficult at times to pull off the needed amount of damage, so through combos of Traps and Techniques seems like everything falls into place most of the time, plus with rifles as my back up I usually Paralyze and Silence anything i need too.

[Abashi76]

My second character is a guntecher.

She uses:

-All ice guns

-Dibarta

-Ice & Poison traps

- other techs > zodeel, resta, gidaga


I would like some advice as well, especially on good ways to get MP, and which weapons are worth leveling and which aren't.

[biggabertha]

Such a shame that even with Lv. 30 attack TECHNICs, Guntechers still deals the best damage with guns, heh.

So there's like, almost no real reason to use TECHNICs unless you're a female, newman Masterforce with a 10/10 Coni, a Har/Quick and Lv. 50 TECHNICs and even then, the Guntecher with the correct element Shotgun or Laser Cannon will kill those groups of enemies faster than her AND THAT'S THE LOWEST ATP RA CLASS.

After getting Yak Banga to Lv. 40 (very quickly seeing as how awesome crossbows are when you've lived as a Protranser for a year and a half) and dealing about 470ish a bolt at Lv. 104 (male human), it's just too awesome. Switching to a Fortegunner makes me wonder why we even need a Guntecher at all when you solo (then I got a Cubo Tuma and now I don't know what to do...)

Love the support that a Guntecher can provide but not their damage compared to a Fortegunner. Resta's handy to have and all, those buffs are handy too and even the debuffs are handy (well, just Jellen) but man oh man... there is SO much difference in damage with a Lv. 21 crossbow bullet and a Lv. 40 crossbow bullet.

[Para]

As per arguments above, I think its pretty safe to say that all guntechers are better off using guns as their primary offense but where as a newman I think they excel with techs in situations so their gameplay is slightly different compared to other guntecher/race combinations.

[Kion]

there are alot of times when techs help out. in terms of ra-techs, there're really great for keeping your distance against multiple enemies. paired with an RCSM, it's pretty easy to tag everything in the room, and often every enemy will be SE'd. nosdigga, noszonde, regrants, and megiverse are different SE's which you can use to benefit the party, so i wouldn't completely shut the door on not using techs. For some reason GT has higher TP than WT right now, so it's not like we're the worst techers.

as far as newmans go; if you want to be a mostly teching gt, then you may as well go fortetecher. bows and cards carry over and 31+ techs are really good room nuking material. I would suggest double classing.

[Para]

You're missing the point. I've been trying to say is that for times where bullets just don't cut it, you take advantage of techs like foie, diga and megid to dish out damage as a newman GT which really makes up for the lack of ATP. Im not telling you to tech out completely as a newman GT but learn to play to your strengths as a newman. Wand and TP boost wasn't for nothing.

[Hrith]

I went back and counted (per 30 seconds)
~35 crossbow shots
~20 tech casts
~25 shotgun blasts

Hrith you may be right, but you're hard to agree with. Backing up your argument with statistics or evidence, rather than calling people names and telling them they're wrong with out any information to support your position would make a much bigger impact.Crossbows fire 80 (240 bullets) times per minute, and shotguns 50 (250 bullets).

And no, this is internet, you do not educate people, you yell at them.

[panzer_unit]

One of your most stupid reply, and that's a feat.
You quoted exactly what proves you wrong.

I'll make it simpler on your brain: how about you add how many times you fire a crossbow by the time you cast a Ra- tech once?

As for those funny pictures posted above, I do more damage with crossbows as a human female GT, try a fair comparison, next time.

tl;dr version - it doesn't matter what your opinion is, try using facts

OK I added how many times I fire a crossbow by the time it takes to cast a Ra tech... 30 shots + .6 casts/second. The units don't even match, so I've got 30.6 ... what exactly is that supposed to mean? That you're really bad with numbers? Quel surprise.

It's funny because the moment you get really abusive and start dodging facts it's a dead giveaway that you're wrong. I quoted the the "faster" part because it's laughable. If you had done the math to prove your point you'd have real numbers to back that up... you're just in the topic so you can call people retards and nubs, and hoping it ends up in your favor when someone else does it, or that the topic dies / gets locked before you're proven wrong. Am I right?

Anyways it looks like Kion actually cares about the truth enough to check it out. Given equal per-hit damage for crossbow and techs (skill level numbers vs "I DO MOAR DAMAGE ON MY HOOMAN", hmm who to believe) even the worst-case Cast ends up so that shooting not-quite-twice-as-fast is not-quite-as-good against bulletproof mobs. Probably 'cause that was one of the scenarios that defined GT stat modifiers.

[Hrith]

Except I was right, again. And you just made a fool of yourself, again.

[Astarin]

I've been observing these "exchanges" for a while. Does anyone else get the feeling that neither side is, as some say, picking up that which the other side is putting down?

[mvffin]

YES OMG LVL 20 TECHS AR BETTER THAN 40 BULLETS

do you people even think before you type?

[Para]

YES OMG LVL 20 TECHS AR BETTER THAN 40 BULLETS

do you people even think before you type?

OMG DID YOU FORGET THAT GUNTECHERS HAVE LV 30 TECHS NOW??? OMG NOOB!

Do you people even think before you troll?

[Niloklives]

not to mention GT TP is much higher than their ATP.. as a human or a newman, there are going to be times where techs out damage bullets. and the opposite is also true. if you're a cast or a beast, you're probably better off sticking to your bullets and only using support techs.

[Hiero_Glyph]

OMG DID YOU FORGET THAT GUNTECHERS HAVE LV 30 TECHS NOW??? OMG NOOB!

Do you people even think before you troll?

Um... GTs have 30 SUPPORT techs and 20 ATTACK techs, so what mvffin said was entirely correct as you cannot attack with a support tech. Troll much?

[Astarin]

Um... GTs have 30 SUPPORT techs and 20 ATTACK techs, so what mvffin said was entirely correct as you cannot attack with a support tech. Troll much?

Well, people are getting a little ahead of themselves. Guntechers are receiving level 30 Attack technics soon. It should be with the same update that we get Master classes, if it follows the JP update pattern. That update will also give WT 30 support, and FT 40 support.

Why has this originally useful discussion gotten so angry?

[Hiero_Glyph]

I am just correcting the guy that tried to flame mvffin and called him n00b. We can always talk about what will be released in the future but that needs to be contexted that it will only be available once Master classes are released. As this is a discussion concerning how GTs play currently the 30 attack techs will be an entirely different discussion at that time.

How is talking about what is available currently getting ahead of ourselves? I'm just curious since you quoted me and I am the one actually talking about skill caps currently. Also, how do you type angrily? I would like to know so that I can do it more often, it sounds like fun.

[Para]

I'll admit that I got ahead of myself concerning the attack tech levels but guntechers going to lv 30 attack techs still does not cause reason to dismiss that the fact that techs are still useful for newman guntechers, even lv 20 attack techs are still useful for certain situations.

Might I also note that the damage increase between a tech compared to certain bullet arts like xbows shows there is a difference.

[biggabertha]

Hmmmm...

Isn't it so much easier to boost your ATP than your TAP in this game? Won't that mean Crossbows will be totally superior to TECHNICs with something like a Cati/Power compared to say, a Red/Force?

Sure, the TECHNIC may deal a larger amount of damage but I think you can only cast Ra spell in a second or two compared to two or maybe even three shots from the Crossbow.

Switch to a Har/Quick? Okay but even then, I'm fairly sure a Ra spell can't concentrate all the damage onto one target like a Crossbow can so you use Foie, Diga or even Nosudiga.

All well and awesome but doesn't casting TECHNICs root you in place for upwards of a second? From what I can remember while trying to Resta, it's just cancel, cancel, cancel, cancel SOD IT, I'LL USE A STAR ATOMISER. So the same principle should hold true for casting Ra TECHNICs against using a Crossbow that can be fired while on the move. Shotguns root you in place too but I'm fairly sure that a Shotgun will out-damage any TECHNIC in 90%+ of the situations that you would use either.

Kind of lame that the only TECHNICs Guntechers can use are Simple and Ra TECHNICs but a Laser Cannon performs better than penetrating Simple TECHNICs, Rifles perform MUCH better than single target Simple TECHNICs while Crossbows out damage, out maneuver and out lasts most Wands or TCSMs.

I think TECHNICs need a bit of a boost because so far, there's only three things going for them;

Looking pretty
Dealing concentrated damage (Ra TECHNICs can smack three/four/five tightly {you know what I mean} packed enemies from a relatively safe distance whilst a Crossbow relies on being a little more dextrous to ensure all three bolts hit different targets AND can miss)
Healing/buffing/debuffing

Shame, such a shame...

[Abashi76]

I found that Dambarta was doing the most damage for me w/ guntecher.

[Kion]

YES OMG LVL 20 TECHS AR BETTER THAN 40 BULLETS

do you people even think before you type?

Not too much. There's always information to be gained from arguing the opposing side.

[Abashi76]

Not too much. There's always information to be gained from arguing the opposing side.

Like I said before, my techs far out-power my guns as a GT.

[Stryker Diaz]

you know theres no longer any need to take this arguement any further >> I didnt want an arguement I just wanted some advice which of course turned into an arguement somehow.... well anyway I use both strats depending on what situation should arise but yes please stop arguing >>

[Hrith]

Like I said before, my techs far out-power my guns as a GT.lol...

People joining a thread to post what has been totally proven wrong are the best.

[Akaimizu]

Having techs far outpower guns as a GT, especially on even defense of enemies (no bullet resist or tech resist) usually means they haven't gotten those crucial final levels on their guns yet. Not a surprise, a good few of the techs have higher values (over time) than their gun counterparts until they get to levels where they can take over.

Heck. When I was raising Twin Handgun bullets (from the early game), I was typically rather scoffed at for even using them. But as more people crossed bullet thresholds for level 30 , level 31+; a lot of people saw a half decent use for them. Maybe not as a B&B (crossbows do a bit more there), but as something that isn't quite the tinker-toy they thought it was. Some old elitist came back with numbers that surprised their own initial thoughts on them.

But that's just one example, of course. Especially the mentioned techs here, take only a tiny fraction to level to their 11-20 ranks. A few techs vs. all elementals of any gun to higher levels and you can't be surprised that some are using techs to pull weight. Until their end-game, of course.

Now considering, what you may consider proven wrong, these people can't prove it wrong with themselves at the time. They really don't have the resources to have their bullets outdamage their techs, yet. So for the time being, they go with the thoughts of what they can show for themselves. Of course, now with the PA rebalance, their bullet struggles will end quickly and they'll finally see what those bullets do as they reach 40.

My main input for the future is a guestimate. Perhaps level 30 tech on a GT won't be that big of a difference. (not every tech beefs up damage like Nosdiga at 21) To tell you the truth, I'm kind of hoping that level 30 techs + Shadoog won't start outdoing bullets for speed runs. Don't mind so much if they hold their own on bullet resistant. Now if only shotties and crossbows could pair with a shadoog. :)

[Para]

When I say techs, do note that I mean techs that are useful for situational purposes like killing a bullet resistant monster with a foie or diga or megid. Other techs are definitely not so viable and I would rather wait until the gap between my TP and ATP becomes even more significant.

[panzer_unit]

lol...

People joining a thread to post what has been totally proven wrong are the best.

You'll have to get around to posting this "proof" you're talking about. The only proof we have so far is that max level ra-techs and crossbows are about even against bulletproof targets for Cast guntechers, which guarantees techs are better against bulletproof enemies for humans and newms.

If we were talking about Shotguns instead, I'd agree about the gun being best because of how they hit two target points at once. But those double hits are only a sure thing against multi-target monsters.

"Viable" techs at lv20 I think are strictly the linear and ra- types. Nos don't have their useful extras yet, single-target basics aren't strong enough to beat crossbows at half (let alone shotguns on multi-target enemies), gi- and dam- are missing out on much needed AOE to consistently hit a large number of enemies at once.

[Akaimizu]

Well, in some stuff, I agree with him. Maybe not the tact with which is said. He may have mentioned about how fully-levelled Shotguns work pretty well even bullet-resistant on specific large bullet resistant mobs that have multiple-hit locations. You have to get the double-hit each time, to make the real difference, though. Not sure how often it counts.

I spoke of how the Tech-Shadoog combo can out damage the Xbow for bullet resistant mobs, in specific, because the Xbow does not get that damage advantage at all. And because the person I responded to specifically said Xbow, not Shotgun. Oddly enough, a decent Galdike (shadoog) does a pretty nifty job of tacking on that extra grand of damage each time it triple-fires. The status effects are fun, because they inflict it really well (for free) when doing a 1 vs. 1 fight.

[Abashi76]

lol...

People joining a thread to post what has been totally proven wrong are the best.

Do I need to posts screens? I have no reason to lie ...

[mvffin]

Do I need to posts screens? I have no reason to lie ...


Damage =/= DPS.

The bigger numbers you get with techs don't mean you kill faster at all.

its like an endless cycle.

[Niloklives]

Don't deal with Hrith, he'll post arguments that contradict themselves in different threads just to be combative. He'll argue for tornado dance just to get a rise out of people. let it go, he's a child.

[Abashi76]

its like an endless cycle.

My Dambarta spell kills far faster, not only because of higher number, but it dishes out damage to multiple targets, and at a rapid speed. My highest hitting weapon is the rifle, but it hits one target and its attack is relatively slow in comparison to some of my other weapons and Dambarta.

There is no reason to argue, we are all different based on our race, gender, and skills.

[Niloklives]

theres no way your rifle is your strongest weapon unless the rest of your bullets are all sub par. rifle is a low DPS weapon that trades on its range and high SE with the knock down effect at really high lvls. its a support type weapon, not a damage type. twin handguns, xbows and shotguns all do much better damage than a rifle. if you're going to draw a comparison for effectiveness, rifle is not the weapon to pick.

[Stryker Diaz]

im a support guy so I carry three rifles and hes pretty much right about that, ive learned that if I wanna do straight up hard damage to either use a Bow or a Shotgun. Shotgun does crazy amount of damage up close and almost guranteed SE.

Rifles= Best Support Weapon due to SE and Knockdown
Twin Handguns,Bows, Shotguns=Power

[Niloklives]

bows are actually worse for dps than rifle due to the rate of fire. thats why a lot of people are mad about the buff rifles got. now rifles are even better for DPS than bows, have a knock down effect and still are better at SEs. thats pretty lame.

for dps its twin handguns xbows, shotguns and in the right situations, lasers...but not in that order.

[biggabertha]

Haven't Rifles always had better DPS than Longbows? Sure, Longbows ignore defences but getting cancelled by annoying little things like Dimmagolus' pebbles makes the Longbow a poor choice compared to a Rifle that fires more or less instantaneously.

Guntecher DPS lies with Shotguns, Laser Cannons and Crossbows. Twin Handguns seem to be cool with their nice straight shots and first person mode or mobility but if it's support you're after, Crossbow, knockdown RCSM, Handgun, Mechgun and maybe Throwing Blades are your better options since you can keep something useful in your right hand while being mobile.

Tough one to call though, are you supporting the party better by killing the creatures faster or supporting the party better by ghetto healing, ghetto buffing and ghetto debuffing? Applying SEs don't really work anymore now that enemies barely last more than six or so seconds so the only viable ones are Shock and Silence but even those, do not work 100% of the time (see Vanda Orga).

Love how Hrith has to do the whole "outdamage, better DPS, bigger numbers" argument again that I read years ago with his RAmarl besting a HUcast. Love it even more how the same assumptions and counter arguments are remade against him.

[Stryker Diaz]

im not here to do damage, im here to make sure they dont damage my party ^^ so I go with SE static and Silence about 90% of the time, but in case of Jarba and other huge things that are annoying I go with Burn for DoT, I know bow sux but I just like the look of it, though to tell you the truth it has been replaced by my third rifle.

[Niloklives]

bertha, as i said rifles were always better for dps but the gamp is even greater now.

Diaz, if you're looking for just doing support, I dunno what kind of advice you want. Bows look cool and their ignore dfp thing is cool, but they really are one of the worst if not the worst gun in the game =/ saddens me too cause I used to really like them.

[Stryker Diaz]

alright then I got one closing question.

Crossbow or Rifle for support. which is better? Rifle has knockdown and SE when Crossbow only has SE but multiple shots help...

[Akaimizu]

Definitely a tough call. They both have their uses. Crossbow has proven to me to be the fastest delivery of status effect across a group and yet propells a lot of damage at the same time. The biggest plus for it is it's ability to allow you to be completely mobile doing all your stuff, which gives you better ability to dodge. It also is a great weapon to use if you plan to stay in healing/buff range of other party members.

Rifles are right behind them for SE landing. They (at even the 11-20 range) land their status effect quite fast against single targets. They aren't quite as fast at landing stuff across a group due to the spread of Xbows, but they gain a SE level higher than the Xbow. When the group is small, the rifle is a good SE.

However, Xbows are for closer range stuff, and they fortunately are fantastic for landing SEs. I highly recommend Silence bullets since you don't get them as traps. Shock is also nice because it stops a lot of melee. Confuse works for Megid tossers, but it's up to you which weapon has those bullets. Often enough, one can supplement confuse with traps. (A tactic I sometimes use on things that can be silenced, by confusing them to buy me time for my Xbows to silence them).

Rifles will likely eventually be your DoT delivery (Bows, right now, have lesser options than they did before. There are a few pretty good precise situations left where the Bow gains some tactical damage advantage (White Beast, and Parum Double Headed dragon bosses). That is, the two bosses left which can be real pains by constantly moving their bullet-sensitive areas away from you and prolong the fight. The Bow can do perfect damage straight to the wings the whole time, and you can punish them without a break at all. Which is good, because the Bow shooting speed slows down if you can't consistantly press the attack before your character lowers the bow.

Note, they used to be of great use especially for a GT who desperately (at the time) needed to get SE4 DoTs fast and may not have had the time to do it on rifles before certain events arrived. Oh yes, I remember the days with much lower ATP, level 10 techs, mediocre Sabers and daggers. Low meseta acquisition. And then they give us Goldovas with huge hitpoints, with every resistance in the world against the GT, 'cept burn status effect. And because of timed missions, you really wanted that SE4, not a SE3. (Melee options were a total joke, then. And just try to land a close range level 10 raising strike or dagger art on a huge mob that wants to run track all day, blowing away all guardians in its path.)

To tell you the truth, Rifles and Crossbows both have their support uses. If Crossbows didn't damage and land SEs so well, Rifles would take the cake. Rifles, on the other hand, since they gain that knockdown now, are a definite want for a Support-thinking Guntecher. Oddly enough, outside of DoT, Freeze bullets are one of my favorite rifle bullets. I like them better on a Rifle than a crossbow, but someone else might have a different opinion. The rifle will likely become your primary (get enemy techers to sit down and shut up) tool, in the future.

[panzer_unit]

Haven't RiflesHandguns always had better DPS than Longbows?

Fixed. Bows are the worst ranged DPS, but pull ahead (of handguns and probably rifles) against bulletproof targets where you're doing half damage and the couple-hundred points you lose on DFP counts for a lot more.

[Stryker Diaz]

Rifles are FTW for me... idk I hate getting to close to enemies when I can just stand back and nail em from a safe distance while buffing and healing, most of the time when I die others follow so ya... I feel like I should keep myself alive by avoiding all damages lol so ima just stick with rifles

[Dhylec]

OK guys, been a heated topic, go get some air. This is locked by request.