Thoughts on Technic selection for MF/FT

[imfanboy]

So, like a lot of players lately, I've been leveling up Technics these last few days, and I've started thinking about rewriting my Fortetecher guide with an eye towards Masterforce as well.

However, as I go about leveling Technics, I find that some of them... are not as good as others, and others are truly terrific. Rather than just arrogantly assume that I know best, I'm going to present my thoughts and see what others have thought. This is only for FT/MF, though; other classes may have uses for some of the Technics I dismiss.

These are thoughts solely on effectiveness, not on which look coolest or anything like that. Basically, "What Technics should an FT/MF have at minimum in order to be effective?" is my line of thought.


FOIE/DIGA: Completely obsoleted by Nosdiga in almost every way. The only exception is on the Mother Brain fights, where it's possible to pitch Diga over the side walls at MB's arms, dealing a heck of a lot of damage compared to the 1/2 damage guns or melee. Sure, Foie has SE4 burn and a cool look to it, but even on ice enemies it just isn't any faster damage than a few Nosdigas.

BARTA/ZONDE: Obsoleted by Megid. Maybe I'm just bitter about having to level up another penetrating line Technic when I find Megid to be the best almost all the time, but still...

RA-TECHNICS: Must have, in all elements. The range factor + 4(5) targets + the massive damage + the speed of them all combine to make Ra-Technics pure win.

GI-TECHNICS: Just not too necessary, with the high-level Ra-Technics. The main use of them is to obliterate large groups of tiny mobs like Polties or Sageetas or that sort of thing.

DAM-TECHNICS: I honestly don't find myself using any of the Dam Technics any more, not even Dambarta. I'd rather fling Megid or a Ra-Technic and not have to worry about being interrupted out of the casting.

NOSZONDE/NOSMEGID: One of the two is essential now that they have knockdown + more targets later on. At first I was having trouble using them, but now I know to release the button when they get close to the target. :D

NOSDIGA: Absolutely essential. The best damage a techer has against a large monster of any element, plus it has the delicious Stun SE. Pure win.

MEGID: Necessity. Incapacitate + high damage + penetrating = win. Plus, how can you be a Techer in a Phantasy Star game without Megid?

MEGIVERSE/REGRANTS: Bloody useless. I like the idea of them both, but.... The charge-up time is WAY too slow on both, and you're way too vulnerable just standing there - and your DFP/HP is too low to keep casting the Technic after even a minor hit, meaning you have to charge again, and again... You'd gain a lot more HP from a single casting of Resta rather than wait for it to trickle in via Megiverse, and Regrants knocks an enemy back, sure - but you have to be standing RIGHT THERE in order for it to take effect. If the Masterforce's Technic speed also affects how fast the charge-up time takes, then Regrants might have SOME application, but...


TECHMAG+WAND vs STAFF: OK, this is just what I've observed, but it seems that on most of the Technics, the DPS on a fully elemental 9/9 Shato is exactly the same as that of a fully elemental 1/10 Psycho Wand - with the added benefit of having Resta easily available on the right-hand wand. The exceptions are Technics like Nosdiga, which don't have an appreciable charge-up time, so naturally the Rod does more damage.

What remains to be seen (from the MF point of view) is whether or not a high-grind Pushan will out-DPS a high grind Psycho Wand - and I'll be most curious in testing that.


Any other thoughts?

[Vent]

I agree with you for the most part except...



MEGIVERSE/REGRANTS: Bloody useless. I like the idea of them both, but.... The charge-up time is WAY too slow on both, and you're way too vulnerable just standing there - and your DFP/HP is too low to keep casting the Technic after even a minor hit, meaning you have to charge again, and again... You'd gain a lot more HP from a single casting of Resta rather than wait for it to trickle in via Megiverse, and Regrants knocks an enemy back, sure - but you have to be standing RIGHT THERE in order for it to take effect. If the Masterforce's Technic speed also affects how fast the charge-up time takes, then Regrants might have SOME application, but...

Megiverse is useless, Regrants is not. It's a great tech for trapping sorcerers. You won't be able to do good damage to it anyway, since it's tech resistance, so keeping one or two in a corner to prevent it from spamming foie/anything else is a great way to support your party.

[Ogni-XR21]

You make some good points. And for players that look for the essential techs to use/level you made the right choices, me thinks.

I, as a 1000 %o techer, think that it's best to have all techs anyway. After all a MF can only use techs and since there are only 34 techs available online I see no point in not having them all.

I use Dam-techs when soloing from time to time, but one could live without them since they are almost useless in a group - the time it takes for them to hit, most of the enemies have already died.

I think a lot of techers prefer Gi-techs over Ra-techs. If you take events like MAG, its much easier to hit all of the surrounding enemies with a Gi-tech, Ra-techs don't work that good in these situations.

[biggabertha]

While it's awesome and all to have TCSM/Wand combo compared to a Rod, the Rods just have a much stronger element, a damage boost for being on a Rod and they are much, much easier on your item space.

Personally, I find that Rods are meant for damage while TCSM/Wand is for support. SUre, it's easier to get a hold of Pushans or Shatos now but a Psycho Wand grinded past 1 is going to laugh uncontrollably at how pathetic single handed weapons are.

Besides, aren't Masterforces meant to use the best of the best equipment? Why use the inferior TCSM/Wand combo when you basically don't have any Support TECHNICs? Why cast a powerful spell faster when equipping a Haru/Quick just basically negates any argument for DPS unless you cast the same TECHNIC over and over, five or six times?

But, it's your subscription and your experiences that count. If it works for you, then go with that.

[Rayokarna]

If your going MF, why don't you just get as many techs as possible except for buffs and debuffs. All your gonna do is cast offencive techs so I don't see why you shouldn't get all of them. Remember, MF can't do anything outside attack techs so just get all of them as you can.

[stukasa]

I agree with most of what you said. I hardly ever use Diga or Foie anymore now that Nosdiga's PP cost is so low. Regrants CAN be useful but it's very situational, and hardly "necessary." Ra-techs are definitely important and techers need to have all elements leveled.

Don't underestimate Gi-techs, though. They might not be as useful in large parties where everything dies in 3 seconds, but in smaller parties (or solo) I find that Gi-techs are very useful. Some enemies (like Badiras) often spawn in large groups of 5 or 6, so Ra-techs can't hit them all. Other times, when you're surrounded by enemies, it's just faster to spam Gi-techs.

As a MF I plan on using a combination of Pushans and Psycho Wands. Rods will mainly be used for Nos- and Dam- techs and Wands/Madoogs will be used for the rest.

[MSAksion]

A Masterforce will be using Wand + Madoog or just ROD and i'm thining just use ROD due to the ELEMENT boost.

Now a Rod holds 4 techs. Heres what my 6 Attack Rods Rods look like.

Fire Rod
1) DamFoie - Highest DPS for Fire.
2) Foie - lvl 4 burn Rifle Range. Nuff said.
3) Ra Foie
4) Jellen
--Skipped - GIFOIE. Level 3 burn circular around me?
--Imagine 6 ICE Olgohmons throwing Barta all surrounding me = BAD Idea.


Ice Rod
1) DamBarta - Highest DPS for ICE
2) GiBarta
3) RaBarta
4) Zalure
--SKIPPED - BARTA UGH. Level 1 freeze???

Lightning Rod
1) NosZonde
2) Gizonde
3) RaZonde
4) Zodeel
--SKIPPED - ZONDE - Megid is supierior yes.

Earth Ground Rod
1) NosDiga
2) Diga
3) RaDiga
4) GiDiga
--SKIPPED - DAMDiga UGH poison 4 is so useless and DPS NOSDiga is supierior.

Darkness Rod
1) DamMegid
2) Megid
3) Ramegid
4) Megiverse - Draining every monsters' HP around me is the best DEBUFF.
You should play with this more as it levels the DEATH AURA grows in size.
--SKIPPED - NOSMEGID - UGH - low HP on a TECHER is so STUPID yes STUPID.
--SKIPPED - MEGISTAR - USELESS. COmpletely MOFO useless.

Light Rod
1) Giresta
2) Reverser
3) Resta
4) REGrants - MUST HAVE. Use on Sendillian or Orcadillian and you'll see its worth. Also - trapping GAOZORANS in the corner and bitch slapping them with this over and over and over =D GIRESTA helps with the HP drain.

[Niloklives]

dam techs are situational like most techs. but my damdiga lvl 23 is much faster for killing groups of enemies than my radiga gidiga or even nosdiga when I can get them positioned right.

I'm kinda over the whole swiss army knive-ness of nosdiga. is devinately strong and all, but its usefulness is very dependent on position. corridors make it useless and its homing feature becomes far less useful at a distance. plus take increasing elemental mods into account. by that I mean lvl 41+ techs will have greater hidden %s.

nos zonde/mgeid will be the only solution MF has against flying enemies and bosses. lvl them up if for no other reason than that, though I agree there's not much value in nosmegid's "SE" that extra punch on the tech usually will only come if you get hit out of the tech. but if you get hit out of that tech animation, iy just detonates wherever it is, usually that means hitting something. so th harder you get hit, the more damage the tech will do when it detonates and then you just heal in whatever way you want. so its not useless, but it is silly.

as far as line techs, megid is pretty amazing. theres not a lot to be said for the other techs unless you're dealing with lines of dark enemies that wont easily die to incap...like shielded enemies. the only line techs could be useful in that situation, but lets face it, that situation will be rare at best.

really i say lvl them all you'll definitely get a lot more use out of some than others, but I think there will be a time when just about every tech will be useful.

[desturel]

Regrants is useful against Orcadillian, Gaozoran, and Sendillian which is all it really needs to be used for. You can use it on Bal soza since Nosdiga will occasionally cause they to stun when they dissappear making them impossible to hit.

Dam spells are always good in situations where ra spells won't hit every creatures. In other words, when there are 5 or 6+ enemies on the screen. Plus even when it's 4 creatures, dam spells will out damage ra spells. You can learn which creatures will interrupt you and which won't through experience.

[Umberger]

What remains to be seen (from the MF point of view) is whether or not a high-grind Pushan will out-DPS a high grind Psycho Wand - and I'll be most curious in testing that.

High grinded Pushan will always outdamage a Psycho Wand with click TECHNICs (basic, Ra-, Gi-), whereas the Psycho Wand will outdamage the Pushan on hold TECHNICs (Nos-, Dam-, Regrant, Megiverse). I've heard that Regrant is better to use on a Pushan however, because it will kill you slower, leading to a longer "safe" cast, but I haven't personally tried that out yet.

Also, a Masterforce doesn't need a TECHNIC selection guide...it can only use 34 PAs (not to mention that only 23 of those are attack TECHNICs, which is what they'll be using 99.9% of the time), why not have them all leveled?

[Rayokarna]

Personally, Inazuma is the only one that can give advice in terms of MF simply because ALL of his techs are maxed and he has maxed out MF.

Building on that, I watched some of his videos, and he actually use most of the techs that you called useless. Look up his posts and check out that video and you see what I mean.

[Inazuma]

i use every tech b/c they all have a certain situation when they are the best attack to use. even megiverse and regrants.

hell, there have been times in white beast i have used regrants to push gohmans closer together, and then follow it up w/ megiverse, lol.

[Niloklives]

Personally, Inazuma is the only one that can give advice in terms of MF simply because ALL of his techs are maxed and he has maxed out MF.

Building on that, I watched some of his videos, and he actually use most of the techs that you called useless. Look up his posts and check out that video and you see what I mean.

The rest of us can still speculate, though I will say that watching his video is what convinced me I was doing the right thing in lvling all of my techs.

[imfanboy]

Well, that's just it; I HAVE leveled all the techs (but Barta/Zonde, they're at 17/5 respectively, and Damfoie/Dammegid/Damdiga all at 0) to at least 21+, and I was just commenting on what I've found useful personally.

It seems to me that when I go in as a Fortetecher, I forgo all my rods but the Psycho Wand, which I'll load out as either Earth (for Nosdiga) or Ice (for Dambarta). My attack Technics are almost always on Techmags, as Ra/Gi spell pairs, with Wands with Giresta/Reverser, with one of them as Giresta/Regrants (in case I do have to send something flying, or keep a big monster staggering). I also keep one Techmag, regardless of mission, as Megid/Ramegid in case I get a good line of enemies or a rare spawn shows up.

Of course, I AM on PS2 rather than PC or 360, so I don't want to risk being too far away from my Resta at any given time. Waiting for a Resta rod to load is just too big of a risk most of the time.


I don't have it on my palatte all the time, but I do keep a Rikauteri/Rikau-senba in my inventory because (so far) on flying boss enemies the Rik-pair seems to outdamage Noszonde just on speed alone.

My buffs are on a mag/wand pair rather than a rod, just for the speed of it (again).


Does all that make sense?

[Astarin]

Interesting read, but I disagree with a few things.

Regrant is far from useless. Great against Sendillans/Orcdillans, because it holds them in place. I also use it against large enemies if there are other party members to damage it while it's immobile.

Zonde and Barta are great for their incredibly cheap PP cost, if nothing else. Zonde is also nearly as strong as Razonde (the modifier is only 10% lower at level 40, for example).

Foie isn't made obsolete by Nosdiga. Foie is faster, strong, burns, and much more aim-able. Nosdiga is great, sure. I like the stun, and the homing can be useful. It's hardly more useful than Foie, though. Among other things, Foie can be fired over obstacles.

As for Ra- versus Gi- versus Dam- technics... I would agree, that for a FT, Gi- technics seem a little redundant. Ra- technics hit nearly as many targets, harder, and faster. If you really do want to hit 6, then Dam- technics will deal much more damage while doing so. I've chosen to forgo all Gi- technics on my FT for this reason. I only use Gi- technics on my WT, because I play her as a close-combat specialist.

While I don't expect that everyone plays them this way, I do think it's pretty overkill to have all of Ra-, Gi- and Dam- on the same techer. You really only need two of those, at most.

[Rayokarna]

Personally, Inazuma is the only one that can give advice in terms of MF simply because ALL of his techs are maxed and he has maxed out MF.

Building on that, I watched some of his videos, and he actually use most of the techs that you called useless. Look up his posts and check out that video and you see what I mean.


Well, that's just it; I HAVE leveled all the techs (but Barta/Zonde, they're at 17/5 respectively, and Damfoie/Dammegid/Damdiga all at 0) to at least 21+, and I was just commenting on what I've found useful personally.

It seems to me that when I go in as a Fortetecher, I forgo all my rods but the Psycho Wand, which I'll load out as either Earth (for Nosdiga) or Ice (for Dambarta). My attack Technics are almost always on Techmags, as Ra/Gi spell pairs, with Wands with Giresta/Reverser, with one of them as Giresta/Regrants (in case I do have to send something flying, or keep a big monster staggering). I also keep one Techmag, regardless of mission, as Megid/Ramegid in case I get a good line of enemies or a rare spawn shows up.


Woah...

Look, Im not disreguarding what your saying related to Fortetecher because almost everything you say about it is true.

But in terms of MF, it's a whole different kettle of fish compared to FT.

All Im saying is that is difficult to compare the tech uses for the two classes because the restrictions on MF.

Sorry I came off a little blunt.

(Yes, I hate to quote myself so I won't be making a habit of it...)

[desturel]

--SKIPPED - BARTA UGH. Level 1 freeze???[/B][/I]

--SKIPPED - ZONDE - Megid is supierior yes.

--SKIPPED - DAMDiga UGH poison 4 is so useless and DPS NOSDiga is supierior.


Barta is level 2 freeze at 31 which is good enough to freeze large creatures. Zonde is better than megid is certain situations (well, mainly just awoken serpent, but people like the way it looks >.> )

Damdiga has better DPS than nosdiga. Great for slautering Go Vahra. Try it out in Plains Overlord, Lightning Beast, Duel in the Ruins, Scarred Planet, or any other run with a large group of Go Vahra. cuts through them like butter. :)

[Colonel Mustard]

Not to be mean at all, but isn't the original poster more posting a guide for the lazy Masterforce who plays in really big parties? This, of course, is rather of a different sort than the Masterforce who wants to, ahem, master being a force.

[mvffin]

well, with an MF, you have enough room for all the spells, so why not have them all? I know some of them have very few useful situations, but its always good to have options.

And personally, I think dam- and ra- are probably the most useful against crowds, and nosdiga is best for cleanup or for single targets. but I'm still gonna level EVERYTHING(maybe even megiverse lol)

[ThEoRy]

Also, a Masterforce doesn't need a TECHNIC selection guide...it can only use 34 PAs (not to mention that only 23 of those are attack TECHNICs, which is what they'll be using 99.9% of the time), why not have them all leveled?



This.

In addition all techs are situational and I use them all when necessary.

Mob at a distance? Ra techs.

Completely surrounded? Gi techs. (megiverse included)

Mobs directly in front of you? Dam techs.

Mobs lined up? Line techs.

Wanna knockback or stunlock? Regrants.

Nosdiga is good whenever.

Noszonde/megid on flyin mobs or when u wanna knockdown I suppose.

See how easy that is?

All techs are useful.

[Mewnie]

hum.. I've been messing around with FT lately, and I was curious how folks set up their palette.

I'm a rod newbie, but it would seem some techs are better suited for wands/t-mags than rods.


Looking for some advice in that regard :3

[imfanboy]

Anything that doesn't have a casting time, such as the Dam-technics, the Nos-technics, and Megiverse are suited for Rods. Possibly.

[Umberger]

Anything that doesn't have a casting time, such as the Dam-technics, the Nos-technics, and Megiverse are suited for Rods. Possibly.

...the only TECHNIC with no casting time is Regrant (Har / Quick and Me / Concentrate take the exact same time to cast). It's just that the hold TECHNICs don't benefit from something that can cast them over and over.

Basically, hold TECHNICs on rods, click on TCSMs. That's all you need to know.

[Vent]

Basically, hold TECHNICs on rods, click on TCSMs. That's all you need to know.

Simple techs are for rods too. You'll cast them slightly slower, but that difference isn't that significant. The damage will be.