Orson Scott Card

[Solstis]

Orson Scott Card is a homophobic tool.



So if my friends insist on calling what they do "marriage," they are not turning their relationship into what my wife and I have created, because no court has the power to change what their relationship actually is.

Instead they are attempting to strike a death blow against the well-earned protected status of our, and every other, real marriage.

They steal from me what I treasure most, and gain for themselves nothing at all. They won't be married. They'll just be playing dress-up in their parents' clothes.
http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2004-02-15-1.html

He also goes on to advocate anarchy and rebellion.

Okay, fine. But, let me ask, is so great about Ender's Game? As far as I can tell, it's the NSYNC of Scifi. Something you feel embarrassed about having read/listened in Middle-school.

[Zantra]

I actually read it in High School, and it was ok. Not great, but not bad either.

I think he may be a secret pedophile, due to the fact that his books tend to contain naked children, in them.

But, the great thing about people like him, is that he's becoming a minority in this world, and not a majority.

Just because he thinks that way, it doesn't mean that anyone who reads his books, feels that way.

And, it's more of a twisted take on religion, that fuels his beliefs above anything else.

I blame his parents.

[Monochrome]

To be honest, I started reading this article -agreeing- with most of his main points. All seemed logical to me. Then, like a jetliner taking off with one stalled engine, it began to lose altitude at the end of the runway. Soon, it was scraping the canopy of the forest, tearing itself to pieces in midair. Then it disappeared into fiery wreckage, lost amongst the trees.

Problems I have with this article:

-Card's definition of family does not extend beyond "Husband, Wife, Child" ..so by his logic, any orphan or anyone not of that description cannot be nor have family and is therefore disfunctional, irrepairable. You can almost hear the uncomfortable keystrokes he is making as he discusses those that "society must care for." So anyone who was unlucky enough to COME from a fractured family does not BELONG in Orson's magic utopia.


-The tone. Repeatedly in the article it states that no matter whether or not gay unions are called "marriage" they are not, nor never will they be a true marriage. While I tend to agree with this, the way he uses it as a point to denigrate shows his true feelings of disdain for homosexuals. His article seemed to want to take a moral stance, yet shows more vitriol than logic. Marriage Is Already Open to Everyone. <--this is pretty much where things start turning into unproven/uncited propaganda. That brings me to the next point.



-Science. He cites no references for his statements regarding homosexuality as a trait that is learned through life experience. A better way to approach this part of the rhetoric would have been to either provide some ACTUAL DATA or at least say something about the leftists "stifling" such studies. It was probably in there somewhere, but not pushed to the forfront of his argument like it should have been, for his opinion to sound less biased..


-It's quite Alarmist. Unfortunately the "it's the end of the world" parts of his argument stand out much more than some of the inciteful points he DOES make.


I'm sure a part of this will make me appear somewhat bigoted, and I apologize if my opinions do offend anyone here. It is what it is

[Nitro Vordex]

Why are people so anal about stuff like this anyways? It's none of your damn buisness what people do on their own time anyways. >_>

No pun intended in that first sentence.

[Solstis]

Card does make some insightful points. I would say that they're all incorrect, but they are interesting.

At the same time, he comes off as a half-crazed alarmist. Soon he'll be showing pictures of 9-11 and showing how gays are explicitly involved in the downfall of the global economy.

[Syl]

Ender's series got better as you read more into the books (with Speaker for the Dead being my favorite). I could care less what the author is like. That would be like judging a band or a musical group solely on their background and not their actual talent...

...which only dicks or self proclaimed "musical elitist" would do.

[Leviathan]

Ender's Game was a bad book. I had to read it last year for school.

[Split]

o well, he's one dude, people say shit like this all the time, this statement just got noticed because he's (kinda) famous. Ender's Game was an amazing book, anyway. Also, you forgot to post this part:

" And we all know the course this thing will follow. Anyone who opposes this edict will be branded a bigot; any schoolchild who questions the legitimacy of homosexual marriage will be expelled for "hate speech." The fanatical Left will insist that anyone who upholds the fundamental meaning that marriage has always had, everywhere, until this generation, is a "homophobe" and therefore mentally ill."

I know I can't be branded as a homophobe, because hell, my brother is gay, and he is treated by myself and everyone around him just like any other human being, and as well he should. I'm also a fairly adamant liberal and proud of it. However, I kinda think Card is right, here. He's talking about the fact that the meaning of the word marriage is being changed (and this is something that should very well concern him as an author), because as he says, marriage isn't the same between two of the same genders and two of the opposite.

" You can't add a runway to an airport in America without years of carefully researched environmental impact statements. But you can radically reorder the fundamental social unit of society without political process or serious research.

Let me put it another way. The sex life of the people around me is none of my business; the homosexuality of some of my friends and associates has made no barrier between us, and as far as I know, my heterosexuality hasn't bothered them. That's what tolerance looks like.

But homosexual "marriage" is an act of intolerance. It is an attempt to eliminate any special preference for marriage in society -- to erase the protected status of marriage in the constant balancing act between civilization and individual reproduction. "

OP did you even read half of this article? I bet if you actually do read and understand it, you'll find yourself wanting to retract the first sentence of your post.

Read this passage (or any of the passages, really) from the article, then tell me with a straight internets face that this guy is a homophobe. I especially encourage a good look over the "Propaganda Mill" section

[Solstis]

The last bit is why I think he's a homophobic tool.

It's called spin.

Oh yeah, I'm not racist! I have black friends!

Hah. HAH.

Homosexual marriage as an act of intolerance? He stages it so that homosexual marriage defines the borders and reality of his own marriage. That is his own doing, he is finding offense at a situation of his own construction.

By the way, him stating that people will rush out to call him a homophobe does not change the matter of him being a one. It would be like Al. Sharpton saying "Well, idiots will find this offensive" right before saying that he wants to castrate Obama.

I also failed to quote where he calls judges "Barbarians."

http://mormontimes.com/ME_blogs.php?id=1586


Human beings are part of a long mammalian tradition of heterosexuality. No parthenogenic test tube procedure can alter what we, by nature, are. No surgery, no hormone injections, can change X to Y or make the distinction nonexistent.

That a few individuals suffer from tragic genetic mixups does not affect the differences between genetically distinct males and females.

Tragic genetic mixups? Can you really defend him?

[Nitro Vordex]

That would be like judging a band or a musical group solely on their background and not their actual talent...

...which only dicks or self proclaimed "musical elitist" would do.

So, pretty much whoever liked MJ right?

[Solstis]

Er, and:

http://www.nauvoo.com/library/card-hypocrites.html


This applies also to the polity, the citizens at large. Laws against homosexual behavior should remain on the books, not to be indiscriminately enforced against anyone who happens to be caught violating them, but to be used when necessary to send a clear message that those who flagrantly violate society's regulation of sexual behavior cannot be permitted to remain as acceptable, equal citizens within that society.

Oh, and I'm totally a music snob. But, if Card's books are okay, as in, not great, I'm not sure why I would bother reading them. I'm not trying to collect classic books.

Okay, I am, but I don't need his.

[HUnewearl_Meira]

-Science. He cites no references for his statements regarding homosexuality as a trait that is learned through life experience. A better way to approach this part of the rhetoric would have been to either provide some ACTUAL DATA or at least say something about the leftists "stifling" such studies. It was probably in there somewhere, but not pushed to the forfront of his argument like it should have been, for his opinion to sound less biased..

That homosexuality is not solely a genetic result should be self-evident to anyone willing to apply logic to it (Personally, I'm not convinced that we're hardwired one way or another).

Consider that a "sexual fetish" is defined as being a condition necessary for an individual to achieve arousal. For a normal heterosexual, this generally requires a healthy specimen of the opposite sex. In the case of a normal homosexual, this generally requires a healthy specimen of the same sex. Just the same, a bestiphiliac requires an animal of some sort, while a necrophiliac requires a dead body. As heterosexuality and homosexuality in their paramount forms are necessarily defined in the same manner as a sexual fetish, it must logically be concluded that heterosexuality and homosexuality are, necessarily, fetishes. Just the same, the argument that fetishes such as sado-masochism are inherited genetically are obscure in nature, as these behaviors are largely accepted to be learned or otherwise psychologically inspired.

In short, given that homosexuality, heterosexuality and common fetishes are all defined by the same property of an individual's personality, how can one logically conclude that the two most popular sexual orientations are inherited genetically, without also concluding that fetishes are also inherited genetically? If we must accept that sexual fetishes are inherited genetically, should we then subject the relatives of pedophiles to the same scrutiny we apply to the pedophiles, themselves? If it is genetic, then surely a pedophile's father must also carry that gene. Should he be punished for his son's crime?

[Solstis]

Meira, your analysis asserts that sexual preferences are the same thing as fetishes.

Always a possibility, but not necessarily the case.

Anyway, my personal belief is that sexual preferences are hardwired at some point and that the point varies from person to person.

And, from a Douglas Adams-ey perspective, I'm sure that by the time we figured out human sexuality, it would thereby cease to exist.

(Erm, and genetic predisposition does not necessarily entail a result)

[Monochrome]

Anyway, my personal belief is that sexual preferences are hardwired at some point and that the point varies from person to person.

I pretty much agree with this ^


In response to Meira

I should have clarified that blurb a little better: I DO agree with the logic that it can be a nurture OR nature issue, but Card's attitude seems to purport that it is strictly nurture, and that homosexuality (or heterosexuality) is chosen more or less "at will" -- and the latter is just 'acting out' on bad life experiences. I just want to see the hard data on this (no pun intended).. or at least where he got this idea from.


[from Card]

The dark secret of homosexual society -- the one that dares not speak its name -- is how many homosexuals first entered into that world through a disturbing seduction or rape or molestation or abuse, and how many of them yearn to get out of the homosexual community and live normally.

It's that desire for normality, that discontent with perpetual adolescent sexuality, that is at least partly behind this hunger for homosexual "marriage."

See, it's those two sentences I have a problem with. I just don't see how wanting homosexual marriage equates to wanting to be a heterosexual, and that somehow the homosexual community has an ardent desire to be normal, but "stays gay" because the rest of their peers are telling them to.. Isn't the whole gay movement about empowering themselves in society, to be accepted AS THEY ARE? That's where he spun off into fantasyland..

And that first sentence sounds logical enough until you pick the AGENDA apart from the logic. Rape, molestation -- ok makes sense, I've known some people who were bi or gay and experienced a traumatic childhood... but then you have "disturbing seduction" - what is THAT? Like Darth Vader asking if I "only knew the power of the Dark Side" ???

The primary reasons I believe any homosexual person would "want to be normal" are: deep religious notions and because society punishes them for being different. I just can't believe someone stays gay from peer pressure. I don't stay hetero from peer pressure. Card treats the issue like it's a drug addiction -- where you start off small, maybe with a gay relationship (as akin to marijuana), then move up to harder drugs, like gay marriage.

[Split]

The primary reasons I believe any homosexual person would "want to be normal" are: deep religious notions and because society punishes them for being different. What about:
wishing they were like everybody else
wanting to have their own kids
wanting adopted kids to be able to grow up without getting made fun of
wanting an end to all the confusion they experience

[Monochrome]

Also solid reasons..

[HUnewearl_Meira]

I believe that Card's position comes from the fundamental misunderstanding that a "choice" to be a homosexual is a choice on the same level as deciding which MMO to play, or choosing what to have for lunch. It's not that kind of a choice. This is a choice made on the same level that makes you choose actions that are against your conscious will. It's a choice on the same level that makes a woman continually find abusive boyfriends one after another, while pushing away or otherwise disregarding a gentler sort of man. It's a process that an individual is not deliberately aware of, and changing it requires a great deal of self-discipline that the overwhelming majority of people are simply unwilling to engage in.

The fact is that the simple state of being a homosexual is not so self-destructive a practice that it merits intervention, as does substance abuse, or a long series of abusive relationships. Because the only real problems (aside from certain medical concerns resulting from sexual practices that may or may not be participated in) come from uninvolved parties that are unwilling to accept their demeanor, there is no motivation to seek change in oneself.

There is no single, tell-tale cause of homosexuality. There are a huge variety of ways in which a person can be inspired to seek relationships with members of the same sex. I could list such things as deep-seated resentment for homophobic parents, molestation at a young age, personal insecurity in conjunction with an attitude that is vulnerable to suggestion, and so on, but all of these factors are fairly simple, and don't begin to even scratch the surface. Any of these things can be cited as a cause of homosexuality, but not everyone who has these things in their past will conclude that they are gay. There are preconditions that must be present in the personality before the life-altering event occurs, and as well, other conditions must appear in the follow-up to the aforementioned event, to guarantee homosexuality. These preconditions and postconditions are the cumulative result of possibly millions of very minor events in the past, and as well, some of the postconditions are dependent on other preconditions. The final formula involved is enormously complicated.

[Zantra]

It's not a choice. Why would anyone choose to be ridiculed by others, and be hated by some of the general population?

If it was a choice, there would be no gay people at all, or being gay wouldn't be as big of an issue, since everyone could "gay out" whenever they wanted to.

I didn't choose to be this way.

I've known that I was different, and that i've liked boys since kindergarden.

Plus, if it's a choice, explain gay animals.

If it exists in nature, it can't be a choice.

No dog says "Woof, I want to hump another male dog, because female dogs are icky."

Plus, if you are a straight guy/gal, you've always been that way, you can't just choose to be straight.

Ask any straight guy, if he'd like to have another man inside of him, and the resounding answer will be "No."

Nobody chooses this... Nobody.

[Split]

It's not a choice. Why would anyone choose to be ridiculed by others, and be hated by some of the general population?

If it was a choice, there would be no gay people at all, or being gay wouldn't be as big of an issue, since everyone could "gay out" whenever they wanted to.

I didn't choose to be this way.

I've known that I was different, and that i've liked boys since kindergarden.

Plus, if it's a choice, explain gay animals.

If it exists in nature, it can't be a choice.

No dog says "Woof, I want to hump another male dog, because female dogs are icky."

Plus, if you are a straight guy/gal, you've always been that way, you can't just choose to be straight.

Ask any straight guy, if he'd like to have another man inside of him, and the resounding answer will be "No."

Nobody chooses this... Nobody.Are their actually gay animals...?

[Nitro Vordex]

Well, not the gay you think of.

But yeah, dogs and cats can go for same sex.

I've seen it, it ain't pretty. -_-

[Uncle_bob]

If it exists in nature, it can't be a choice.

No dog says "Woof, I want to hump another male dog, because female dogs are icky."


That's not really a valid point.
Animals also roll around in their own shit and eat their young. :disapprove:

[Blitzkommando]

It's not a choice. Why would anyone choose to be ridiculed by others, and be hated by some of the general population?
Masochism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masochism) isn't just about physical pain. Some people also just want attention no matter good or bad.


If it was a choice, there would be no gay people at all, or being gay wouldn't be as big of an issue, since everyone could "gay out" whenever they wanted to.
But if it wasn't a choice, then how can people change their sexual preferences throughout their lives? Going from gay, to straight, to bi, to asexual. It is a choice in at least some extent as you choose whether to pursue it or not.


I didn't choose to be this way.
But you did choose to live the lifestyle. I won't argue your feelings on it, however it is a choice in any event as is anything a person does.


I've known that I was different, and that i've liked boys since kindergarden.
I liked boys in kindergarten too, as friends. At that point in my life I wasn't sure of my sexuality because I wasn't familiar with even the concept of sex yet. I have a hard time believing anyone who says they knew their orientation before they had any sort of idea as to what sex even is in the first place. It's like saying one prefers white to red wine while never having had either simply because that person 'could tell'.


Plus, if it's a choice, explain gay animals.
I'd be very interested to hear this review you've had asking the sexual preferences of an animal. Links on that would be great.


If it exists in nature, it can't be a choice.
Non sequitur. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_%28logic%29)

Killing one of the same species for a creature's own benefit exists in nature. However, humans can choose to act this out or not to act it out. Again, saying otherwise is a non sequitur.


No dog says "Woof, I want to hump another male dog, because female dogs are icky."

Dogs also hump couches. Do they have a fetish towards furniture?


Plus, if you are a straight guy/gal, you've always been that way, you can't just choose to be straight.
Again, I ask about the people who have changed their orientation. An example would be some sexually abused people change their concepts and ideas on sexuality after the attacks.


Ask any straight guy, if he'd like to have another man inside of him, and the resounding answer will be "No."
Being straight I never knew this. Thanks for the heads up!


Nobody chooses this... Nobody.
Except for the people that, you know, did choose.

[Zantra]

Masochism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masochism) isn't just about physical pain. Some people also just want attention no matter good or bad.


But if it wasn't a choice, then how can people change their sexual preferences throughout their lives? Going from gay, to straight, to bi, to asexual. It is a choice in at least some extent as you choose whether to pursue it or not.


But you did choose to live the lifestyle. I won't argue your feelings on it, however it is a choice in any event as is anything a person does.


I liked boys in kindergarten too, as friends. At that point in my life I wasn't sure of my sexuality because I wasn't familiar with even the concept of sex yet. I have a hard time believing anyone who says they knew their orientation before they had any sort of idea as to what sex even is in the first place. It's like saying one prefers white to red wine while never having had either simply because that person 'could tell'.


I'd be very interested to hear this review you've had asking the sexual preferences of an animal. Links on that would be great.


Non sequitur. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_%28logic%29)

Killing one of the same species for a creature's own benefit exists in nature. However, humans can choose to act this out or not to act it out. Again, saying otherwise is a non sequitur.



Dogs also hump couches. Do they have a fetish towards furniture?


Again, I ask about the people who have changed their orientation. An example would be some sexually abused people change their concepts and ideas on sexuality after the attacks.


Being straight I never knew this. Thanks for the heads up!


Except for the people that, you know, did choose.

Ok, first... WTF is up with you?

Attacking me, for who I am. And then talking out of your ass, about things you have no personal life experience with.

I am not a masochist, don't talk about people like you know them.

Seriously... don't you ever think for yourself?

Now in response to all of your "points"... (If they can even be considered to be valid arguments.)

In the history of the world, nobody has ever changed their sexual orientation.

Pics or it didn't happen, as they say. Seriously show me one person, who has changed their sexual orientation, and I will show you a Bisexual, or a Liar.

Proof from the surgeon general of the USA:
Sexual orientation is usually determined by adolescence, if not earlier (Bell et al, 1981), and there is no valid scientific evidence that sexual orientation can be changed (Haldeman, 1994; APA, 2000). Nonetheless, our culture often stigmatizes homosexual behavior, identity and relationships (Herek, 1993). These anti-homosexual attitudes are associated with psychological distress for homosexual persons and may have a negative impact on mental health, including a greater incidence of depression and suicide, lower self-acceptance and a greater likelihood of hiding sexual orientation (Gonsiorek, 1982; Ross, 1985; Ross, 1990; Greene, 1997; Remafedi, 1998). Although the research is limited, transgendered persons are reported to experience similar problems. In their extreme form, these negative attitudes lead to antigay violence. Averaged over two dozen studies, 80 percent of gay men and lesbians had experienced verbal or physical harassment on the basis of their orientation, 45 percent had been threatened with violence, and 17 percent had experienced a physical attack (Berrill, 1992).

http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/sexualhealth/call.htm#III has the full article.



You say preference, but I corrected you.

It's not a preference. It's an Orientation.

I don't prefer to be with a man.

If it was a preference, then every man on earth, would probably be both gay, and straight.

Sick of women? Then, invite your best pal Ted over for football, and making out.

Sick of men? Sally in accounting just broke up with her girlfriend Tina, why not try asking her out?

See... it's not a preference. Maybe for Bisexuals it is... But it's not a preference for Homosexual, and Heterosexual people.

Like you, and me.

No matter what the Bible tells you.

It's not a lifestyle, it's a sexual orientation...

Well, people develop at different rates, I knew that i had romantic feelings for boys at a young age. I'm sorry that you find it hard to believe, but you might also find it hard to believe, that I lost my virginity at a different age than you, and I experienced puberty at a different age than you! Shocking, isn't it? That I might actually have been born gay, the same way that you were born straight.

I find this quote to be quite interesting, and truthful.

"I decided to be gay, the same day that you decided to be straight."

And, I know, that you never decided to be straight, because I never decided to be gay, and implying that I did, proves that you don't know me, and you are once again talking out of your ass.

Gay animals, coming up... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals

It's not a fetish, dogs assert their dominance, and claim territory that way. Obviously you're not a dog person, or you would know about the alpha dog/male mentality regarding territory, in animals of the canine species.

Once again, nobody made a choice, just more bible thumping nonsense falling out of your ass.

Read, and learn.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_orientation

I'm sorry that you're a homophobe.

[Aisha379]

I'm sorry that you're a homophobe.

Okay, I really hate this fucking word with a passion.

Everyone acts like if you're not willing to march in a gay pride parade and stand up for their "rights", then you must OBVIOUSLY be a homophobe.

Do most people even know what homophobe MEANS?

Homo = homosexuality, obvious

Phobe = Phobia

Now what, I wonder, does phobia mean? Hmmm.


a persistent, irrational fear of a specific object, activity, or situation that leads to a compelling desire to avoid it.

Now I may be wrong here, but I don't believe Blitz gave any indication of being FEARFUL of you, or your lifestyle.

Funny how this only works with the term homophobe, though - that anyone who does not agree must fear it.

I mean, if I don't vote for Obama, I'm not gonna be called a racist/xenophobe, am I?

Or cats, do you like cats? No? Then obviously you are a felinephobe.

Or, maybe, you took such offense to Blitz because, obviously, you are a paranoid homophobe-phobe, yeah, thats it.


I have gay/bisexual friends, however, I do not agree with homosexuality. I do not FEAR these people, I do not FEAR their choices with what they do with their life, but I do not agree with it - does that make me a homophobe? Think very carefully before you answer that now.


Its just so great how the absolute incorrectly used abuse of this word has grown about as big as "racism" has, "If you do not share my opinion, you are obviously full of hate and contempt for what I stand for, instead of logically understanding our differences, I shall now commence to spew shitty baseless descriptions of your closed mind so that everyone else may see just what a horrible despicable person you are."

Now skinheads who attack gay people? Sure.

We can assume violence = phobic nature.

However, moral or politically differences on the situation do not, never have, and never shall, specifically indicate FEAR.


[/end rant]


Now as for my issue on the cause of homosexuality, I do not entirely believe it is a choice, nor do I entirely believe it is chemical/mental/genetically/"just is".

I really like what Meira said, that made a lot of sense to me.

However, I have heard of homosexuals going through a form of "rehabilitation" if you will, and have become heterosexuals with normal relationships and lives, so I believe anyone who wants to change, can. They just need to find the right people to help them and the right way to go about it.

Then again, what do I know? I'm probably just some homophobe.

[HUnewearl_Meira]

It's not a choice. Why would anyone choose to be ridiculed by others, and be hated by some of the general population?

If it was a choice, there would be no gay people at all, or being gay wouldn't be as big of an issue, since everyone could "gay out" whenever they wanted to.

I didn't choose to be this way.

I've known that I was different, and that i've liked boys since kindergarden.

Plus, if it's a choice, explain gay animals.

If it exists in nature, it can't be a choice.

No dog says "Woof, I want to hump another male dog, because female dogs are icky."

Plus, if you are a straight guy/gal, you've always been that way, you can't just choose to be straight.

Ask any straight guy, if he'd like to have another man inside of him, and the resounding answer will be "No."

Nobody chooses this... Nobody.
Why do you regard your homosexuality as a problem?

Also, you've managed to do an incredible job of missing every point that Blitz made, and attack him, instead.

[Solstis]

Drama! Awesome.

If we're going to discuss the subject matter of the topic directly, yes, Card is demonstratively a homophobe. He *fears* that homosexual marriage will destroy the very fabric, the meaning of his own marriage.

Could I date a girl? Absolutely, we'd have fun, talk about our emotions, bicker and bitch. Could I sleep with her? If I took Dramamine, I suppose.

So, it that sense, it is a choice. At the same time, "rehabilitation" is another fancy word for "brainwashing." Of course it works. It is designed specifically to work, though I'd be concerned for the mental health of anyone that considered or went through the process.

Oh, and though I am amused by both Aisha and Zantra, chill out, y'all. Get a nice glass of iced tea, or better yet, a glass of Long Island Iced Tea.

[Aisha379]

At the same time, "rehabilitation" is another fancy word for "brainwashing." Of course it works. It is designed specifically to work, though I'd be concerned for the mental health of anyone that considered or went through the process.

I wouldn't call it "brainwashing" if they want to change though.

That would be like saying drug and alcohol rehabilitation is "brainwashing". Its more like learning to cope, or change your behavior in a situation I think.


Oh, and though I am amused by both Aisha and Zantra, chill out, y'all. Get a nice glass of iced tea, or better yet, a glass of Long Island Iced Tea.

I just get annoyed when people throw around "homophobe" like that is all. Believe me, I am quite calm. I just always come off as really angry for some reason, but most of the time I am extremely apathetic really =X

Maybe I need to start using happy faces more.

[Split]

hey solstis, no hard feelings, man? I hate nothing worse than having an enemy, or anything close to it





I'M SCARED OF GAY PEOPLE!!1!! :wacko: :) :D :cool:

No, I don't think that works Aisha

[Zantra]

That's not really a valid point.
Animals also roll around in their own shit and eat their young. :disapprove:

So do human beings.

Canabalism, Mud wrestling, German Porn.

Also, human beings kill their children all the time, and children kill their parents.

Read a newspaper.

[Zantra]

I liked boys in kindergarten too, as friends. At that point in my life I wasn't sure of my sexuality because I wasn't familiar with even the concept of sex yet. I have a hard time believing anyone who says they knew their orientation before they had any sort of idea as to what sex even is in the first place. It's like saying one prefers white to red wine while never having had either simply because that person 'could tell.'

I draw your attention back to what the Surgeon general said, about most homosexual people knowing before, or at Adolesence, long before sexual acts have come into the mix.

Also, what you're implying is, that everyone on Earth needs to have sex with a man, and a woman, before they know if they are Gay, or Straight, which is ridiculous.

I know for a fact, that i'm about as willing to have sex with a woman, as you are to have sex with a man, which is not at all.

So, your basically saying, "How would you know that you didn't like women, until you have sex with one." which is ignorant, and idiotic.

Plus, food, and sex are two completely different things.

The type of food you like depends on what your parents feed you as a baby, your tastebuds mature, and grow in different ways, depending on what your parents feed you.

Sexual Orientation is instinctual, as proven by Gay Animals, and is not influenced by others.

Also, to all of the people saying that none of my points are valid, and people can change, and all that bullshit, just read that one Paragraph from the surgeon general stating, that nobody has ever changed their sexual orientation EVER. Anybody who has, is a Bisexual, or a Liar.

[Shadowpawn]

So do human beings.

Canabalism, Mud wrestling, German Porn.

Also, human beings kill their children all the time, and children kill their parents.

Read a newspaper.

The difference is that humans are able to rationalize the validity of those actions. Some people think it's fine to do those things, but not everyone. Animals on the other are driven by instinct to do the aforementioned actions. What Uncle_Bob was saying that it's very unflattering to be compared to beings that can't use rational thought. The fact that we can mimic those unsavory actions is m00t.

[Zantra]

Why do you regard your homosexuality as a problem?

Also, you've managed to do an incredible job of missing every point that Blitz made, and attack him, instead.

I don't regard it as a problem, but you seem to.

And, I made lots of valid points. Why don't you read them.

Start with the surgeon general's paragraph.

Or, do you think reading is a fetish too?

[Zantra]

The difference is that humans are able to rationalize the validity of those actions. Some people think it's fine to do those things, but not everyone. Animals on the other are driven by instinct to do the aforementioned actions. What Uncle_Bob was saying that it's very unflattering to be compared to beings that can't use rational thought. The fact that we can mimic those unsavory actions is m00t.

Well, then homosexuality in animals, proves that it's instinctual in humans.

Because, if animals have no control over it, than humans don't either.

And, last time I checked, we are animals. Mammals.

[Split]

Also, what you're implying is, that everyone on Earth needs to have sex with a man, and a woman, before they know if they are Gay, or Straight, which is ridiculous.
That wasn't he was implying at all, he was saying that a kid needs to be familiar with the concepts of sex and sexuality before knowing which gender he prefers, and he's totally right

[Zantra]

That wasn't he was implying at all, he was saying that a kid needs to be familiar with the concepts of sex and sexuality before knowing which gender he prefers, and he's totally right

No, he said that "How do you know you only like white wine, until you've tried red wine?"

Which implies that by only having sex with men, i've confused myself, and until I have sex with a woman, I won't know if i'm gay or not, which is ridiculous.

So, if he's totally right, did that mean, that you had to have sex with a man and a woman to find out if you were gay or straight? Because, that sounds like what you're implying.
What you're saying is that everyone needs to sleep with both sex's, and then decide. Which is also ridiculous.

[Zantra]

Lazy people rejoice! The entire surgeon general's article for you to read.

Which states that Gay people know who they are long before they have sex, and that nobody has ever changed their sexual orientation ever! Read it all, before you ignorantly comment again.

THE SURGEON GENERAL'S CALL TO ACTION TO PROMOTE SEXUAL HEALTH AND RESPONSIBLE SEXUAL BEHAVIOR
July 9, 2001
A Letter from the Surgeon General
U.S. Department of Health and Human Services

I am introducing the Surgeon General's Call to Action to Promote Sexual Health and Responsible Sexual Behavior because we, as a nation, must address the significant public health challenges regarding the sexual health of our citizens. In recognition of these challenges, promoting responsible sexual behavior is included among the Surgeon General's Public Health Priorities and is also one of the Healthy People 2010 Ten Leading Health Indicators for the Nation. While it is important to acknowledge the many positive aspects of sexuality, we also need to understand that there are undesirable consequences as well-alarmingly high levels of sexually transmitted disease (STD) and HIV/AIDS infection, unintended pregnancy, abortion, sexual dysfunction, and sexual violence. In the United States:

STDs infect approximately 12 million persons each year;
774,467AIDS cases, nearly two-thirds of which were sexually transmitted, have been reported since 1981;
an estimated 800,000 to 900,000 persons are living with HIV;
an estimated one-third of those living with HIV are aware of their status and are in treatment, one-third are aware but not in treatment, and one-third have not been tested and are not aware;
an estimated 40,000 new HIV infections occur each year;
an estimated 1,366,000 induced abortions occurred in 1996;
nearly one-half of pregnancies are unintended;
an estimated 22 percent of women and two percent of men have been victims of a forced sexual act; and
an estimated 104,000 children are victims of sexual abuse each year.
Each of these problems carries with it the potential for lifelong consequences-for individuals, families, communities, and the nation as a whole. As is the case with so many public health problems, there are serious disparities among the populations affected. The economically disadvantaged, racial and ethnic minorities, persons with different sexual identities, disabled persons, and adolescents often bear the heaviest burden. Yet it is important to recognize that persons of all ages and backgrounds are at risk and should have access to the knowledge and services necessary for optimal sexual health.

These challenges can be met but first we must find common ground and reach consensus on some important problems and their possible solutions. It is necessary to appreciate what sexual health is, that it is connected with both physical and mental health, and that it is important throughout the entire lifespan, not just the reproductive years. It is also important to recognize the responsibilities that individuals and communities have in protecting sexual health. The responsibility of well-informed adults as educators and role models for their children cannot be overstated. Issues around sexuality can be difficult to discuss-because they are personal and because there is great diversity in how they are perceived and approached. Yet, they greatly impact public health and, thus, it is time to begin that discussion and, to that end, this Surgeon General's Call to Action is offered as a framework.

It is, however, only a first step-a call to begin a mature and thoughtful discussion about sexuality. We must understand that sexuality encompasses more than sexual behavior, that the many aspects of sexuality include not only the physical, but the mental and spiritual as well, and that sexuality is a core component of personality. Sexuality is a fundamental part of human life. While the problems usually associated with sexual behavior are real and need to be addressed, human sexuality also has significant meaning and value in each individual's life. This call, and the discussion it is meant to generate, is not just intended for health care professionals or policy makers. It is intended for parents, teachers, clergy, social service professionals-all of us.

I would like to add a few words for the many thousands of persons living with HIV/AIDS in this country. We realize that you are not the enemy; that the enemy in this epidemic is the virus, not those who are infected with it. You need our support and encouragement. At the same time, it is also important that you realize you have an opportunity to partner with us in stemming the spread of this illness; to be responsible in your own behavior and to help others become aware of the need for responsible behavior in their sexual lives. Working together, we can make a difference.

This Call to Action has been developed through a collaborative process. It is based on a series of scientific review papers contributed by experts in relevant fields, on recommendations developed at two national conferences, and on extensive review and comment as the document was being prepared-all of which sought the broadest possible input and brought together a wide range of experience, expertise and perspective with representation from the academic, medical and religious communities, policy makers, advocates, teachers, parents and youth. The strategies presented here provide a point of reference for advancing a national dialogue on issues of sexuality, sexual health, and responsible sexual behavior. It can begin among individuals, but must also involve communities, the media, government and non-government agencies, institutions, and foundations.

In developing this Call to Action, we have received a wide range of input, and have identified several areas of common ground. A major responsibility of the Surgeon General is to provide the best available science based information to the American people to assist in protecting and advancing the health and safety of our Nation. This report represents another effort to meet that responsibility.

Finding common ground might not be easy, but it is possible. The process leading to this Call to Action has already shown that persons with very different views can come together and discuss difficult issues and find broad areas of agreement. Approaches and solutions might be complex, but we do have evidence of success. We need to appreciate the diversity of our culture, engage in mature, thoughtful and respectful discussion, be informed by the science that is available to us, and invest in continued research. This is a call to action. We cannot remain complacent. Doing nothing is unacceptable. Our efforts not only will have an impact on the current health status of our citizens, but will lay a foundation for a healthier society in the future.



David Satcher, M.D., Ph.D.
Surgeon General


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THE SURGEON GENERAL'S CALL TO ACTION TO PROMOTE SEXUAL HEALTH AND RESPONSIBLE SEXUAL BEHAVIOR

Introduction

The Public Health Approach

The Public Health Problem

Risk and Protective Factors for Sexual Health
Biological Factors
Parents and Other Family Members
Schools
The Community
The Media
Religion
Health Care Professionals
The Law
Availability of Reproductive Health Services

Evidence Based Intervention Models
Community Based Programs
School Based Programs
Clinic Based Programs
Religion Based Programs

Vision for the Future

Advancing a National Dialogue

Conclusion
References

Methodology

Acknowledgments


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I. Introduction

Sexuality is an integral part of human life. It carries the awesome potential to create new life. It can foster intimacy and bonding as well as shared pleasure in our relationships. It fulfills a number of personal and social needs, and we value the sexual part of our being for the pleasures and benefits it affords us. Yet when exercised irresponsibly it can also have negative aspects such as sexually transmitted diseases--including HIV/AIDS--unintended pregnancy, and coercive or violent behavior. To enjoy the important benefits of sexuality, while avoiding negative consequences, some of which may have long term or even life time implications, it is necessary for individuals to be sexually healthy, to behave responsibly, and to have a supportive environment--to protect their own sexual health, as well as that of others.

Sexual health is inextricably bound to both physical and mental health. Just as physical and mental health problems can contribute to sexual dysfunction and diseases, those dysfunctions and diseases can contribute to physical and mental health problems. Sexual health is not limited to the absence of disease or dysfunction, nor is its importance confined to just the reproductive years. It includes the ability to understand and weigh the risks, responsibilities, outcomes and impacts of sexual actions and to practice abstinence when appropriate. It includes freedom from sexual abuse and discrimination and the ability of individuals to integrate their sexuality into their lives, derive pleasure from it, and to reproduce if they so choose.

Sexual responsibility should be understood in its broadest sense. While personal responsibility is crucial to any individual's health status, communities also have important responsibilities. Individual responsibility includes: understanding and awareness of one's sexuality and sexual development; respect for oneself and one's partner; avoidance of physical or emotional harm to either oneself or one's partner; ensuring that pregnancy occurs only when welcomed; and recognition and tolerance of the diversity of sexual values within any community. Community responsibility includes assurance that its members have: access to developmentally and culturally appropriate sexuality education, as well as sexual and reproductive health care and counseling; the latitude to make appropriate sexual and reproductive choices; respect for diversity; and freedom from stigmatization and violence on the basis of gender, race, ethnicity, religion, or sexual orientation.

Sexual health and responsible sexual behavior are both linked to the Surgeon General's Public Health Priorities and the Department of Health and Human Services' Healthy People 2010 initiative and the Guide to Community Preventive Services. These are, in turn, based on the scientific evidence and on principles of health promotion and disease prevention, and provide a basis for approaching these challenges.

The Surgeon General's Public Health Priorities include: (1) a balanced community health system, grounded at the community level and encompassing the promotion of healthy lifestyles, including responsible sexual behavior, and provision of equitable access to health care services; (2) the elimination of racial and ethnic disparities in health; and (3) a global approach to public health and the exchange of information and technology with other nations to improve world health.

Healthy People 2010 identifies national public health priorities and objectives to be achieved over the next decade. Its two overarching goals are to improve years and quality of healthy life and to eliminate disparities in health including those related to HIV/AIDS, sexually transmitted diseases, domestic violence and unintended pregnancy. The document also includes a set of 10 Leading Health Indicators for the nation, one of which is responsible sexual behavior. Two other leading health indicators are also relevant to this Call to Action-reducing substance abuse and improving access to health care.

The Guide to Community Preventive Services: Systematic Reviews and Evidence-Based Recommendations represents a significant national effort in encouraging evidence-based public health practice. It is being developed to make recommendations regarding public health interventions in a variety of areas, including mental health, violence prevention and sexual behavior. It is intended to provide an independent and scientifically rigorous road map to help reach the goals of improved health envisioned in Healthy People 2010.

This Call to Action focuses on the need to promote sexual health and responsible sexual behavior throughout the lifespan. Its primary goal is to stimulate respectful, thoughtful, and mature discussion in our communities and in our homes. While sexuality may be difficult to discuss for some, and there are certainly many different views and beliefs regarding it, we cannot afford the consequences of continued or selective silence. It is necessary to find common ground--balancing diversity of opinion with the best available scientific evidence and best practice models--to improve the health of our nation. This Call to Action is also the first step toward the development of guidelines to assist parents, clergy, teachers, and others in their work of improving sexual health and responsible sexual behavior.


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II. The Public Health Approach

Use of a public health approach is requisite to promoting sexual health and responsible sexual behavior. This approach has four central components: 1) identifying the problem; 2) identifying risk and protective factors; 3) developing and testing interventions; and 4) implementing, and further evaluating, those interventions that have demonstrated effectiveness. In the present case, public health responds to the problem-sexually transmitted diseases, unintended pregnancies, and sexual violence-by asking what is known about its distribution and rates, what factors can be modified, if those modifications are acceptable to the community, and if they are likely to address the problem. Such approaches can range from provision of information about responsible sexuality and interventions designed to promote healthy behavior--such as sexuality education that starts from within the family, where educated and informed adults can also serve as positive role models--to developing vaccines against sexually transmitted diseases (STDs) and AIDS, and to making sexual health care more available and accessible. Additionally, public health focuses on involving communities in their own health and tailoring health promotion programs to the needs and cultures of the communities involved. Because sexuality is one of the human attributes most endowed with meaning and symbolism, it is of particular importance that addressing sexual health issues involve community wide discussion, consultation, and implementation.

This Call to Action provides an evidence based foundation for developing a public health approach to sexual health and responsible sexual behavior. It identifies the problems and then discusses risk and protective factors. Numerous intervention models that have been evaluated and shown to be effective, as well as some that are promising but not yet adequately evaluated, are also presented. The last step, implementation of effective interventions, will depend heavily on individual communities and their members.


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III. The Public Health Problem

The United States faces a significant challenge related to the sexual health of its citizens. Concerns include: STDs; infertility and cancer resulting from STDs; HIV/AIDS; sexual abuse, coercion and prejudice; unintended pregnancy; and abortion.

Five of the ten most commonly reported infectious diseases in the U.S. are STDs; and, in 1995, STDs accounted for 87 percent of cases reported among those ten (Institute of Medicine [IOM], 1997). Nevertheless, public awareness regarding STDs is not widespread, nor is their disproportionate impact on women, adolescents, and racial and ethnic minorities well known:


Chlamydia infection is the most commonly reported STD. While reported rates of infection in women greatly exceed those in men, largely because screening programs have been primarily directed toward women, the rates for both women and men are probably similar. Chlamydia rates for women are highest among those aged 15-19 years and rates for Black and Hispanic women are also considerably higher than those for White women (IOM, 1997).
Rates for gonorrhea are highest among women aged 15-19 years and Blacks (IOM, 1997).
It is estimated that 45 million persons in the U.S. are infected with genital herpes and that one million new cases occur per year (Fleming et al, 1997).
Sexually transmitted infections in both women and men contribute to infertility, which affects approximately 14 percent of all couples in the United States at some time (Sciarra, 1991). For example, chlamydia and gonorrhea infections account for 15 percent of cases of infertility in women (IOM, 1997).
Human Papillomavirus (HPV) is a sexually transmissible virus that causes genital warts. An estimated 5.5 million persons become infected with HPV each year in the U.S. and an estimated 20 million are currently infected. There are many different types of HPV. While most women who have HPV do not develop cervical cancer, four HPV subtypes are responsible for an estimated 80 percent of cervical cancer cases, with approximately 14,000 new cervical cancer cases occurring per year (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention [CDC], 1999a).
Currently, there are an estimated 800,000 to 900,000 persons living with HIV in the United States, with approximately 40,000 new HIV infections occurring every year. Among those who are currently positive for HIV, an estimated one-third are aware of their status and in treatment, one-third are aware of their status but not in treatment, and one-third have not been tested and are unaware of their status (CDC, 2000a; CDC, 2001a).

Since 1981, a total of more than 774,467 AIDS cases had been reported to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). The disease has disproportionately affected men who have sex with men--47 percent of reported cases--and minority men who have sex with men have now emerged as the population most affected (CDC, 2001b). A recently released seven city survey indicates that new HIV infection was substantially higher for young Black gay and bisexual men than for their White or Hispanic counterparts (CDC, 2001c). During the 1990s, the epidemic also shifted toward women. While women account for 28 percent of HIV cases reported since 1981, they accounted for 32 percent of those reported between July 1999 and June 2000. Similarly, women account for 17 percent of AIDS cases reported since 1981, but 24 percent of those reported between July 1999 and June 2000 (CDC, 2000b).

Sexual abuse contributes to sexual dysfunction and other public health problems such as substance abuse and mental health problems. There are an estimated 104,000 child victims of sexual abuse per year (U.S. Department of Health and Human Services [USDHHS], 2000a), and the proportion of women in current relationships who are subject to sexual violence is estimated at eight percent (Coker et al, 2000). While it is estimated that only a relatively small proportion of rapes are reported (Koss et al, 1988), a major national study found that 22 percent of women and approximately two percent of men had been victims of a forced sexual act (Laumann et al, 1994).

Sexual orientation is usually determined by adolescence, if not earlier (Bell et al, 1981), and there is no valid scientific evidence that sexual orientation can be changed (Haldeman, 1994; APA, 2000). Nonetheless, our culture often stigmatizes homosexual behavior, identity and relationships (Herek, 1993). These anti-homosexual attitudes are associated with psychological distress for homosexual persons and may have a negative impact on mental health, including a greater incidence of depression and suicide, lower self-acceptance and a greater likelihood of hiding sexual orientation (Gonsiorek, 1982; Ross, 1985; Ross, 1990; Greene, 1997; Remafedi, 1998). Although the research is limited, transgendered persons are reported to experience similar problems. In their extreme form, these negative attitudes lead to antigay violence. Averaged over two dozen studies, 80 percent of gay men and lesbians had experienced verbal or physical harassment on the basis of their orientation, 45 percent had been threatened with violence, and 17 percent had experienced a physical attack (Berrill, 1992).

There are also persons who are challenged with developmental, physical or mental disabilities whose sexuality and sexual needs have often been ignored, or at worst, exploited and abused (Schover and Jensen, 1988; Hingsburger and Harber, 1998). Although appropriate assistance has been developed for these vulnerable populations, it is seriously underutilized (Acton, 1992; Sipski and Alexander, 1997). Additional materials and programs, as well as further research, are needed.

It is estimated that nearly one-half of all pregnancies in the U.S. are unintended (US.DHHS, 2000b). While women in all age, income, race and ethnicity categories experience unintended pregnancies, the highest rates occur among adolescents, lower-income women and Black women (IOM, 1995). Unintended pregnancy is medically costly in terms of the precluded opportunity for preconception care and counseling, as well as increased likelihood of late or no prenatal care, increased risk for low birthweight, and increased risk for infant mortality. It is also socially costly in terms of out-of-wedlock births, reduced educational attainment and employment opportunity, increased welfare dependency, and later child abuse and neglect--and economically in terms of health care costs (IOM, 1995).

An estimated 1,366,000 induced abortions occurred in the U.S. in 1996, a slight increase from the 1,364,000 in 1995, but a 15 percent decrease from the 1,609,000 in 1990. A similar pattern of decrease has been observed in abortion rates with 22.9 abortions per 1000 women aged 15-44 years in 1996 compared to 27.4 in 1990 (Ventura, 2000). Moreover, surveillance data indicate that for those States that report previous induced abortions, nearly 45 percent of abortions reported in 1996 were obtained by women who had already had at least one abortion (CDC, 1999b).

The belief that adolescents obtain the majority of abortions in the U.S. is inaccurate. Abortion rates are substantially higher for women in their twenties than for adolescents. Rates in 1996 were 50.7 abortions per 1000 for women aged 20-24 years and 33.6 per 1000 for women aged 25-29 years, compared with a rate of 29.2 abortions per 1000 women aged 15-19 years. Moreover, women over 20 years of age account for 80 percent of total induced abortions. Nonetheless, a higher proportion of adolescent pregnancies end in abortion (29 percent) than do pregnancies for women over 20 years of age (21 percent) (Ventura, 2000).

Significant differences of opinion exist regarding the morality of abortion. In general, U.S. courts have ruled that the procedure is legal and health care technology has made abortion relatively safe. However, there is broad accord that abortion should be a rare procedure and that improvements in sexual health and an emphasis on a reduction in the number of unintended pregnancies will clearly move this objective forward. The underpinning of the public health approach to this issue is to apply a variety of interventions at key points to prevent unintended pregnancy from occurring, and thus, ensure that all pregnancies are welcomed.


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IV. Risk and Protective Factors for Sexual Health

Human beings are sexual beings throughout their lives and human sexual development involves many other aspects of development- physical, behavioral, intellectual, emotional, and interpersonal. Human sexual development follows a progression that, within certain ranges, applies to most persons. The challenge of achieving sexual health begins early in life and continues throughout the lifespan. The actions communities and health care professionals must take to support healthy sexual development vary from one stage of development to the next. Children need stable environments, parenting that promotes healthy social and emotional development, and protection from abuse. Adolescents need education, skills training, self-esteem promoting experiences, and appropriate services related to sexuality, along with positive expectations and sound preparation for their future roles as partners in committed relationships and as parents. Adults need continuing education as they achieve sexual maturity--to learn to communicate effectively with their children and partners and to accept continued responsibility for their sexuality, as well as necessary sexual and reproductive health care services.

There are also a number of more variable risk and protective factors that shape human sexual behavior and can have an impact on sexual health and the practice of responsible sexual behavior. These include biological factors, parents and other family members, schools, friends, the community, the media, religion, health care professionals, the law, and the availability of reproductive and sexual health services.

Biological Factors

Although human sexuality has come to serve many functions in addition to reproduction, its biological basis remains fundamental to the sexual experience. Sexual response involves psychological processing of information, which is influenced by learning, physiological responses and brain mechanisms which link the information processing to the physiological response. Although there is much that is not well understood about this complex sequence, it is understood that individuals vary considerably in their capacity for physical sexual response. This variability can be explained only in part by cultural factors. The role of early learning or genetic factors, or an interaction between the two, remains to be determined by further research.

Reproductive hormones are clearly important. However, their role is best understood and most predictable for men-and much more complex for women. For example, apart from the fact that women may experience a variety of reproduction-related experiences--the menstrual cycle, pregnancy, lactation, the menopause, and hormonal contraception-all of which can influence their sexual lives, there does appear to be greater variability among women in the impact of reproductive hormones on their sexuality (Bancroft, 1987). In addition, variations in the onset of puberty and menstruation can represent special challenges for girls in some populations.

Parents and Other Family Members

A number of family factors are known to be associated with adolescent sexual behavior and the risk of pregnancy. Adolescents living with a single parent are more likely to have had sexual intercourse than those living with both biological parents (Miller, 1998). Having older siblings may also influence the risk of adolescent pregnancy, particularly if the older siblings have had sexual intercourse, and if an older sister has experienced an adolescent pregnancy or birth (East, 1996; Widmer, 1997). For girls, the experience of sexual abuse in the family as a child or adolescent is linked to increased risk of adolescent pregnancy (Browning, 1997; Roosa, 1997; Miller, 1998). In addition, adolescents whose parents have higher education and income are more likely both to postpone sexual intercourse and to use contraception if they do engage in sexual intercourse (Miller, 1998).

The quality of the parent-child relationship is also significant. Close, warm parent-child relationships are associated with both postponement of sexual intercourse and more consistent contraceptive use by sexually active adolescents (Jaccard, 1996; Resnick, 1997). Parental supervision and monitoring of children are also associated with adolescents postponing sexual activity or having fewer sexual partners if they are sexually active (Hogan and Kitagawa, 1985; Miller, 1998; Upchurch et al, 1999). However, parental control can be associated with negative effects if it is excessive or coercive (Miller, 1998).

Schools

Evidence suggests that school attendance reduces adolescent sexual risk-taking behavior. Around the world, as the percentage of girls completing elementary school has increased, adolescent birth rates have decreased. In the United States, youth who have dropped out of school are more likely to initiate sexual activity earlier, fail to use contraception, become pregnant, and give birth (Mauldon and Luker, 1996; Brewster et al, 1998, Manlove, 1998; Darroch et al, 1999). Among youth who are in school, greater involvement with school-including athletics for girls--is related to less sexual risk-taking, including later age of initiation of sex, and lower frequency of sex, pregnancy, and childbearing (Holden et al, 1993; Billy et al, 1994; Resnick et al, 1997).

Schools may have these effects on sexual risk-taking behavior for any of several reasons. Schools structure students' time; they create an environment which discourages unhealthy risk-taking--particularly by increasing interactions between youth and adults; and they affect selection of friends and larger peer groups. Schools can increase belief in the future and help youth plan for higher education and careers, and they can increase students' sense of competence, as well as their communication and refusal skills (Manlove, 1998; Moore et al, 1998).

Schools often have access to training and communications technology that is frequently not available to families or clergy. This is important because parents vary widely in their own knowledge about sexuality, as well as their emotional capacity to explain essential sexual health issues to their children. Schools also provide an opportunity for the kind of positive peer learning that can influence social norms.

The Community

Community can be defined in several ways: through its geographic boundaries; through the predominant racial or ethnic makeup of its members; or through the shared values and practices of its members. Most persons are part of several communities, including neighborhood, school or work, religious affiliation, social groups, or athletic teams. Whatever the definition, community influence on the sexual health of those who comprise it is considerable, as is its role in determining what responsible sexual behavior is, how it is practiced and how it is enforced.

The measurable physical characteristics of neighborhoods and communities, such as economic conditions, racial and ethnic composition, residential stability, level of social disorganization, and service availability have demonstrated associations with the sexual behavior of their residents-initiation of sexual activity, contraceptive use, out-of-wedlock childbearing and risk of STD infection (Billy and Moore, 1992; Brewster et al, 1993; Grady, 1993; Billy et al, 1994; Grady et al, 1998; Tanfer et al, 1999). An understanding of these characteristics and their impact on individuals is important in planning and developing services and other interventions to improve the sexual health and promote the responsible sexual behavior of community residents.

A shared culture, based either on heritage or on beliefs and practices, is another form of community. Each of these communities possesses norms and values about sexuality and these norms and values can influence the sexual health and sexual behavior of community members. For example, strong prohibitions against sex outside of marriage can have protective effects with respect to STD/HIV infection and adolescent pregnancy (Comas-Diaz, 1987; Kulig, 1994; Savage and Tchombe, 1994; Sudarkasa, 1997; Tiongson, 1997; Abraham, 1999; Amaro, 2001). On the other hand, undue emphasis on sexual restraint and modesty can inhibit family discussion about sexuality and perhaps contribute to reluctance to seek sexual and reproductive health care (Hiatt et al, 1996; Schuster et al, 1996; He et al, 1998; Tang et al, 1999). Gender roles that accord higher status and more permissiveness for males and passivity for females can have a negative impact on the sexual health of women if they are unable to protect themselves against unintended pregnancy or STD/HIV infection (Amaro and Raj, 2000; Bowleg et al, 2000; Castaneda, 2000).

When a community--defined by its culture--also has minority status, its members are potential objects of economic or social bias which can have a negative impact on sexual health. Economic inequities, in the form of reduced educational and employment opportunities, and the poverty that often results, has obvious implications for accessing and receiving necessary health education and care. In addition, a history of exploitation has, in some cases, led to distrust and suspicion of public health efforts in some minority communities (Tafoya, 1989; Thomas and Quinn, 1991; Wyatt, 1997).

The Media

The media--whether television, movies, music videos, video games, print, or the Internet-are pervasive in today's world and sexual talk and behavior are frequent and increasingly explicit. More than one-half of the programming on television has sexual content (Cope and Kunkel, in press). Significant proportions of music videos and Hollywood movies also portray sexuality or eroticism (Greenberg et al, 1993; DuRant et al, 1997). Among young people, 10-17 years of age, who regularly use the Internet, one-quarter had encountered unwanted pornography in the past year, and one-fifth had been exposed to unwanted sexual solicitations or approaches through the Internet (Finkelhor et al, 2000).

Media programming rarely depicts sexual behavior in the context of a long-term relationship, use of contraceptives, or the potentially negative consequences of sexual behavior. The media do, however, have the potential for providing sexuality information and education to the public. For example, more than one-half of the high school boys and girls in a national survey said they had learned about birth control, contraception, or preventing pregnancy from television; almost two-thirds of the girls and 40 percent of the boys said they had learned about these topics from magazines (Sutton et al, in press).

While the available research evidence shows a connection between media and information regarding sexuality, it is still inadequate to make the link between media and sexual behavior.

Religion

Simply being affiliated with a religion does not appear to have great effect on sexual behavior; however, the extent of an individual's commitment to a religion or affiliation with certain religious denominations does (Brewster et al, 1998). For example, an adolescent's frequent attendance at religious services is associated with less permissive attitudes about premarital sexual activity and a greater likelihood of abstinence (Ku et al, 1993; Billy et al, 1994; Werner-Wilson, 1998). On the other hand, for adolescents who are sexually active, frequency of attendance is also associated with decreased use of contraceptive methods among girls and increased use by boys (DuRant and Sanders, 1989; Ku et al, 1993).

Health Care Professionals

Physicians, nurses, pharmacists and other health care professionals, often the first point of contact for individuals with sexual health concerns or problems, can have great influence on the sexual health and behavior of their patients. Yet, both adolescents and adults frequently perceive that health care providers are uncomfortable when discussing sexuality and often lack adequate communication skills on this topic (Croft and Asmussen, 1993).

Health care providers typically do not receive adequate training in sexual aspects of health and disease and in taking sexual histories. Ideally, curriculum content should seek to decrease anxiety and personal difficulty with the sexual aspects of health care, increase knowledge, increase awareness of personal biases, and increase tolerance and understanding of the diversity of sexual expression. Although such training for physicians has increased-95 percent of North American medical schools offer curriculum material in sexuality-nearly one-third do not address important topics such as taking a sexual history (Dunn and Alarie, 1997).

The Law

In the United States, the law regulates sexual behavior in complicated ways through criminal, civil, and child welfare law and operates at local, state, and federal levels. Criminal law imposes penalties for certain kinds of sexual activities, considering factors such as age, consent of both parties, the actual act performed, and the location in which it takes place. Civil law complements criminal law and can extend the law's reach. Civil law, for example, provides individuals with protection from sexual harassment and allows legal redress for some victims of sexual violence (Levesque, 1998). It can also have an impact through regulation of relationships such as marriage, divorce, and child custody and support.

The law may also regulate some aspects of the community's influence on sexuality, including the family, schools, and media. While it generally protects parental rights (Levesque, 2000), the law also imposes limits. For example, it protects children from sexual victimization by a family member. The law also regulates access to sexual health services through mechanisms such as parental notification and waiting period requirements. With respect to schools, although states may set certain minimum standards, the law allows individual school systems to determine the content of curriculum, including sexuality education curriculum. In addition, the legal system provides schools with the power to develop and implement programs to address the prevention of sexual harassment, relationship violence, and rape.

Under protection of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, the media have great freedom in the choice of content they portray. At the same time, the law can impose certain restrictions on the media; for example, it may limit minors' access to sexually explicit materials.

Availability of Reproductive Health Services

In the United States, contraceptive and reproductive health services are provided to women and men by a wide range of health care professionals. These services are offered in a variety of settings-private practice offices, publicly funded family planning clinics, private clinics, military clinics, school-based health centers, college and university health centers, and private hospitals. Often, contraceptive services are integrated with other basic preventive health services such as pelvic examinations and pap tests, and screening for sexually transmitted infections (Frost and Bolzan, 1997). In addition to medical care, counseling or education related to sexual and reproductive health may be provided.

Barriers to obtaining these services can exist if providers are not conveniently located, are not available when needed, do not provide (or are thought not to provide) confidential, respectful, culturally sensitive care, or are not affordable (Forrest and Frost, 1996). Federally subsidized family planning services have been an important factor in helping many persons overcome these barriers and avoid an estimated 1.3 million unintended pregnancies per year (Forrest and Samara, 1996).


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V. Evidence-based Intervention Models

Substantial work has been done in the areas of sexual health and responsible sexual behavior, through public-private partnerships at the national as well as community level, by many researchers and organizations throughout the country. Many of these approaches and programs to improve sexual health have been evaluated and shown to be effective. They include: community based programs, school based programs, clinic based programs, and religion based programs.

Community Based Programs

Youth development programs, although they typically do not specifically address sexuality, have been shown to have a significant impact on sexual health and behavior. Programs that improve education and life options for adolescents have been demonstrated to reduce their pregnancy and birth rates (Olsen and Farkas, 1990; Allen et al, 1997; Melchior, 1998; Hawkins et al, 1999). These programs may increase attachment to school, improve opportunities for careers, increase belief in the future, increase interaction with adults, and structure young people's time.

The CDC has identified a number of effective STD and HIV prevention programs that are curriculum based and presented by peer and health educators in various community settings (CDC, 1999c). Other community interventions have involved changing community norms and the distribution of condoms to reduce unwanted pregnancies and STDs, including HIV. Such interventions have the advantages of reaching large numbers of people at a relatively low cost and engaging the active involvement of community members, including local opinion leaders. They have had considerable success in changing community norms about sexual behavior as evidenced by substantial increases in condom use (Arnold and Cogswell, 1971; Kelly et al, 1991; Grosskurth et al, 1995; Kegeles et al, 1996; Kelly et al, 1997). It is important to point out that although the correct and consistent use of condoms has been shown to be effective in reducing the risk of pregnancy, HIV infection, and some STDs, more research is needed on the level of effectiveness.

School Based Programs

A majority of Americans favor some form of sexuality education in the public schools and also believe that some sort of birth control information should be available to adolescents (Smith, 2000). School based sexuality education programs are generally of two types: abstinence-only programs that emphasize sexual abstinence as the most appropriate choice for young people; and sexuality and STD/HIV education programs that also cover abstinence but, in addition, include condoms and other methods of contraception to provide protection against STDs or pregnancy.

To date, there are only a few published evaluations of abstinence-only programs (Christopher and Roosa, 1990; St Pierre et al, 1995; Kirby et al, 1997; Kirby, 2001). Due to this limited number of studies it is too early to draw definite conclusions about this approach. Similarly, the value of these programs for adolescents who have initiated sexual activity is not yet understood. More research is clearly needed.

Programs that typically emphasize abstinence, but also cover condoms and other methods of contraception, have a larger body of evaluation evidence that indicates either no effect on initiation of sexual activity or, in some cases, a delay in the initiation of sexual activity (Kirby, 1999; Kirby, 2001). This evidence gives strong support to the conclusion that providing information about contraception does not increase adolescent sexual activity, either by hastening the onset of sexual intercourse, increasing the frequency of sexual intercourse, or increasing the number of sexual partners. In addition, some of these evaluated programs increased condom use or contraceptive use more generally for adolescents who were sexually active (Kirby et al, 1991; Rotheram-Borus et al, 1991; Jemmott et al, 1992; Walter and Vaughn, 1993; Magura et al, 1994; Main et al, 1994; St Lawrence et al, 1995; Hubbard et al, 1998; Jemmott et al, 1998; Coyle et al, 1999).

Despite the available evidence regarding the effectiveness of school-based sexuality education, it remains a controversial issue for many- in terms of whether schools are the most appropriate venue for such education, as well as curriculum content. Few would disagree that parents should be the primary sexuality educators of their children or that sexual abstinence until engaged in a committed and mutually monogamous relationship is an important component in any sexuality education program. It does seem clear, however, that providing sexuality education in the schools is a useful mechanism to ensure that this Nation's youth have a basic understanding of sexuality. Traditionally, schools have had a role in ensuring equity of access to information that is perhaps greater than most other institutions. In addition, given that one-half of adolescents in the United States are already sexually active-and at risk of unintended pregnancy and STD/HIV infection-it also seems clear that adolescents need accurate information about contraceptive methods so that they can reduce those risks.

Clinic Based Programs

Prevention programs based in health clinics that have an impact on sexual health and behavior are of three types: counseling and education; condom or contraceptive distribution; and STD/HIV screening. Successful counseling and education programs have several elements in common: they have a clear scientific basis for their design; they require a commitment of staff time and effort, as well as additional time from clients; they are tailored to the individual; and they include building clients' skills through, for example, exercises in negotiation. Even brief risk-reduction messages have been shown, in some studies, to lead to substantial increases in condom use (Cohen et al, 1991; Cohen et al, 1992; Mansfield et al, 1993; Kamb et al, 1998;) although other studies have shown little effect (Wenger et al, 1992; Clark et al, 1998). More extensive counseling, either individual or small group, can produce additional increases in consistent condom use (Boyer et al, 1997; Shain et al, 1999).

Most school clinic based condom and contraceptive availability programs include some form of abstinence or risk-reduction counseling to address the concern that increased condom availability could lead to increased sexual behavior (Kirby and Brown, 1996). The evidence indicates these programs, while still controversial in some communities, do not increase sexual behavior and that they are generally accepted by adolescents, parents, and school staff (Guttmacher et al, 1995; Wolk and Rosenbaum, 1995).

Because many STDs have no clear symptoms, STD/HIV screening promotes sexual health and responsible sexual behavior by detecting these diseases and preventing their unintentional spread. Routine screening in clinics has also been shown to reduce the incidence of some STDs, particularly chlamydia infection (Hillis et al, 1995; Scholes et al, 1996).

Religion Based Programs

Religion based sexuality education programs have been developed and cover a wide spectrum of different belief systems. Taken as a whole, they cover all age ranges, from early elementary school to adults, as well as youth with different sexual orientations and identities. Although it is reasonable to expect that religion based programs would have an impact on sexual behavior, the absence of scientific evaluations precludes arriving at a definitive conclusion on the effectiveness of these programs. More research is needed.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

VI. Vision for the Future

Strategies that cover three fundamental areas--increasing awareness, implementing and strengthening interventions, and expanding the research base-could help provide a foundation for promoting sexual health and responsible sexual behavior in a manner that is consistent with the best available science.

1. Increasing Public Awareness of Issues Relating to Sexual Health and Responsible Sexual Behavior

Begin a national dialogue on sexual health and responsible sexual behavior that is honest, mature and respectful, and has the ultimate goal of developing a national strategy that recognizes the need for common ground.
Encourage opinion leaders to address issues related to sexual health and responsible sexual behavior in ways that are informed by the best available science and that respect diversity.
Provide access to education about sexual health and responsible sexual behavior that is thorough, wide-ranging, begins early, and continues throughout the lifespan. Such education should:
recognize the special place that sexuality has in our lives;
stress the value and benefits of remaining abstinent until involved in a committed, enduring, and mutually monogamous relationship; but
assure awareness of optimal protection from sexually transmitted diseases and unintended pregnancy, for those who are sexually active, while also stressing that there are no infallible methods of protection, except abstinence, and that condoms cannot protect against some forms of STDs.
Recognize that sexuality education can be provided in a number of venues-homes, schools, churches, other community settings-but must always be developmentally and culturally appropriate.
Recognize that parents are the child's first educators and should help guide other sexuality education efforts so that they are consistent with their values and beliefs.
Recognize, also, that families differ in their level of knowledge, as well as their emotional capability to discuss sexuality issues. In moving toward equity of access to information for promoting sexual health and responsible sexual behavior, school sexuality education is a vital component of community responsibility.
2. Providing the Health and Social Interventions Necessary to Promote and Enhance Sexual Health and Responsible Sexual Behavior

Eliminate disparities in sexual health status that arise from social and economic disadvantage, diminished access to information and health care services, and stereotyping and discrimination.
Target interventions to the most socioeconomically vulnerable communities where community members have less access to health education and services and are, thus, likely to suffer most from sexual health problems.
Improve access to sexual health and reproductive health care services for all persons in all communities.
Provide adequate training in sexual health to all professionals who deal with sexual issues in their work, encourage them to use this training, and ensure that they are reflective of the populations they serve.
Encourage the implementation of health and social interventions to improve sexual health that have been adequately evaluated and shown to be effective.
Ensure the availability of programs that promote both awareness and prevention of sexual abuse and coercion.
Strengthen families, whatever their structure, by encouraging stable, committed, and enduring adult relationships, particularly marriage. Recognize, though, that there are times when the health interests of adults and children can be hurt within relationships with sexual health problems, and that sexual health problems within a family can be a concern in and of themselves.
3. Investing in Research Related to Sexual Health and Disseminating Findings Widely

Promote basic research in human sexual development, sexual health, and reproductive health, as well as social and behavioral research on risk and protective factors for sexual health.
Expand the research base to cover the entire human life span-children, adolescents, young adults, middle age adults, and the elderly.
Research, develop, disseminate, and evaluate educational materials and guidelines for sexuality education, covering the full continuum of human sexual development, for use by parents, clergy, teachers, and other community leaders.
Expand evaluation efforts for community, school and clinic based interventions that address sexual health and responsibility.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

VII. Advancing a National Dialogue

The primary purpose of this Surgeon General's Call to Action is to initiate a mature national dialogue on issues of sexuality, sexual health, and responsible sexual behavior. As stated so eloquently in the Institute of Medicine report, No Time to Lose (IOM, 2000):

"Society's reluctance to openly confront issues regarding sexuality results in a number of untoward effects. This social inhibition impedes the development and implementation of effective sexual health and HIV/STD education programs, and it stands in the way of communication between parents and children and between sex partners. It perpetuates misperceptions about individual risk and ignorance about the consequences of sexual activities and may encourage high-risk sexual practices. It also impacts the level of counseling training given to health care providers to assess sexual histories, as well as providers' comfort levels in conducting risk-behavior discussions with clients. In addition, the "code of silence" has resulted in missed opportunities to use the mass media (e.g., television, radio, printed media, and the Internet) to encourage healthy sexual behaviors."

The strategies set out above provide a point of reference for a national dialogue. How it will be implemented will be determined by individuals and families, communities, the media, and by government and non-government agencies, institutions, and foundations. We must all share in the responsibility for initiating this dialogue, working at every level of society to promote sexual health and responsible sexual behavior.

Individuals can begin the dialogue - adult with adult, adult with child - by developing their own personal knowledge, attitudes, and skills with respect to sexual health and responsible sexual behavior. Adults can communicate with other adults about their views on responsible sexual behavior, what it is, and how to promote it. Parents can educate their children about sexuality and responsibility, most importantly by being healthy and positive role models.

Communities must necessarily approach a dialogue on sexual health and responsible sexual behavior in different ways, according to their diverse composition and norms. But all must participate so that all voices are heard. This dialogue can be sponsored by local governments, businesses, churches, schools, youth-serving organizations and other community based organizations and should, at a minimum, include: emphasis on respect for diversity of perspective, opinion and values; assessment of community resources available for educating community members and delivering necessary services; attention to policies and programs that support and strengthen families; and assurance that systems are in place to promote equitable access and respect for all cultural, gender, age, and sexual orientation groups.

Media in all its forms can be engaged, by both public and private entities, in a national dialogue to promote sexual health and responsible sexual behavior. This dialogue should be a long-term effort and should treat sexuality issues responsibly, accurately, and positively. With respect to media programming, the portrayal of sexual relationships should be mature and honest, and responsible sexual behavior should be stressed. Finally, it is also important that young people, as well as adults, be educated to critically examine media messages.

Government, in partnership with foundations and other private organizations, can target support for the research, education, and services necessary to sustain a meaningful campaign to promote sexual health and responsible sexual behavior. Government should continue to develop objective and measurable indicators to monitor progress over time. It can also review policies and laws to ensure that they facilitate--rather than impede--the promotion of sexual health and responsible sexual behavior.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

VIII. Conclusion

Based on the scientific evidence, we face a serious public health challenge regarding the sexual health of our nation. Doing nothing is unacceptable. More than anyone, it is our children who will suffer the consequences of our failure to meet these responsibilities.

Solutions are complex but we do have evidence that we can promote sexual health and responsible sexual behavior. Given the diversity of attitudes, beliefs, values and opinions, finding common ground might not be easy but it is attainable. We are more likely to find this common ground through a national dialogue with honest and respectful communication. We need to appreciate and respect the diversity of our culture and be informed by the science that is available to us.

This is a call to all of society to respond to this challenge. These efforts will not only have an impact on the current health status of our nation, but lay the groundwork for a healthier society for future generations.

[Aisha379]

I don't know whats funnier, him posting that huge ass article following "Lazy people rejoice" - as if anyone lazy is going or even wants to read that, inability to quote multiple times in a single post, or his complete and utter inability to understand anything previously said by people.


I am just so amazed. The asshole in me wants to quote and break down arguments and spell things out, but he seems so incapable of basic reading comprehension and logic that its just going to be a waste of time for me...

Just...wow. I'm not going to bother replying to him anymore on this subject =S

[Shadowpawn]

Well, then homosexuality in animals, proves that it's instinctual in humans.

Because, if animals have no control over it, than humans don't either.

And, last time I checked, we are animals. Mammals.


You just completely missed the point. While it is true we are animals we have something other animals lack, the ability to reason and sound logic. Take this argument for example, many people here are on opposite sides of a debate. Some, like yourself, choose to believe in the notion people can't chose their sexually orientation, others do not. If we have that small degree of freedom the agree and disagree on the finer points of a topic then who is to say that people do not have any control over their sexual preference? If this were true and in fact people did not have any real control over this and it was a hardwired factor to an absolute degree then it would be very hard to apply this notion to a bisexual who on a whim can change what they may be attracted to.

You certainly can't say that bisexuals are not in control of their sexually if they pick and choose their mates. I think cultural influences and life experience are more of a factor in helping to determine a person's sexual preference (which may or may not say the same throughout their lives.)

[Zantra]

You just completely missed the point. While it is true we are animals we have something other animals lack, the ability to reason and sound logic. Take this argument for example, many people here are on opposite sides of a debate. Some, like yourself, choose to believe in the notion people can't chose their sexually orientation, others do not. If we have that small degree of freedom the agree and disagree on the finer points of a topic then who is to say that people do not have any control over their sexual preference? If this were true and in fact people did not have any real control over this and it was a hardwired factor to an absolute degree then it would be very hard to apply this notion to a bisexual who on a whim can change what they may be attracted to.

You certainly can't say that bisexuals are not in control of their sexually if they pick and choose their mates. I think cultural influences and life experience are more of a factor in helping to determine a person's sexual ORIENTATION (which may or may not say the same throughout their lives.)


Bisexuals can't change either, they'll always be attracted to men and women. Fix'd BTW.

[Zantra]

Sexual orientation is usually determined by adolescence, if not earlier (Bell et al, 1981), and there is no valid scientific evidence that sexual orientation can be changed (Haldeman, 1994; APA, 2000). Nonetheless, our culture often stigmatizes homosexual behavior, identity and relationships (Herek, 1993). These anti-homosexual attitudes are associated with psychological distress for homosexual persons and may have a negative impact on mental health, including a greater incidence of depression and suicide, lower self-acceptance and a greater likelihood of hiding sexual orientation (Gonsiorek, 1982; Ross, 1985; Ross, 1990; Greene, 1997; Remafedi, 199. Although the research is limited, transgendered persons are reported to experience similar problems. In their extreme form, these negative attitudes lead to antigay violence. Averaged over two dozen studies, 80 percent of gay men and lesbians had experienced verbal or physical harassment on the basis of their orientation, 45 percent had been threatened with violence, and 17 percent had experienced a physical attack (Berrill, 1992).

I'll keep posting it, until you Backwards Bible Loving Retards read it.

NOBODY HAS EVER CHANGED THEIR SEXUAL ORIENTATION.

Quit denying Science.

[Shadowpawn]

You do KNOW what orientation means, right?

It's the act of adjusting to one's surroundings or environment. Whatever it be internal or external. That can be changed. In terms of sexual orientation, does. Have you ever heard of stories where there are men, in their 30's or 40's, married with kids that decide that they want to change their sexual preference? It does happen. You won't find that reflected in any scientific study.

[Zantra]

Wow, I wonder when this thread will end up in FKL...

Anyway, i'm just defending what i believe, and what science has already proven.

I had nothing more to say on the subject, but you don't know me, and if you're not gay, than you don't have the right to assume that you know what causes it, unless you've done years of research on it, like I have.

Oh, and BTW, we don't have any kind of agenda, and we're not ruining marriage either.

Straight people ruined marriage, long before we got to.

[Zantra]

You do KNOW what orientation means, right?

It's the act of adjusting to one's surroundings or environment. Whatever it be internal or external. That can be changed. In terms of sexual orientation, does. Have you ever heard of stories where there are men, in their 30's or 40's, married with kids that decide that they want to change their sexual preference? It does happen. You won't find that reflected in any scientific study.

You mean the men that have always been gay, or bisexual. But have been so ashamed, because of how their community, and their church have made them feel. That they've stayed in the closet, and lived a lie, because of the corrupt and unsupportive society around them?

And, sexual orientation is different.

Please, educate yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_orientation

[Shadowpawn]

You mean the men that have always been gay, or bisexual. But have been so ashamed, because of how their community, and their church have made them feel. That they've stayed in the closet, and lived a lie, because of the corrupt and unsupportive society around them?


So their environment has therefore affected their sexual preference then, because that's what I said earlier. If they were truly not in control of who they can choose to be attracted then no amount of pressure could them to marry and have children in a loveless relationship. That should have never taken place. It is possible to be a closet homosexual and not enter a heterosexual affair.

[Zantra]

So their environment has therefore affected their sexual ORIENTATION then, because that's what I said earlier. If they were truly not in control of who they can choose to be attracted then no amount of pressure could them to marry and have children in a loveless relationship. That should have never taken place. It is possible to be a closet homosexual and not enter a heterosexual affair.

They are gay, they just hide who they are, for fear of being hurt, or being rejected by friends and loved ones. And, most of the men that have children, are Bisexual.

Plus, Gay men can have children through many different methods, what's to keep them from using invitro fertilization with a female friend, or adoption, and playing house, so that his famiy will never find out the truth about his sexual orientation.

Some people are ashamed of who they are, because society tells them that they are bad or wrong, and they start to believe it themselves, even if it isn't true.

[Shadowpawn]

That wouldn't make sense. Earlier in your arguments you called bisexuals lairs for not being able to stick with one sexual preference and now you're saying they are gay for the sake of a convenient argument. Also, what would be the point of an invitro fertilization if you're trying to convince the world you aren't gay, if anything that just makes the person more suspect to being accused of being as such by everyone close to you. I don't know about you but there aren't many people in the world who would pretend to be married to a person and have their children for the sake of keeping a secret that in no way affects their own life.

[Aisha379]

I'll keep posting it, until you Backwards Bible Loving Retards read it.

I'm sorry you're such a religious-phobe.

And a motherfucking thick one at that.

...Or would that be fatherfucking? Ah well.



Anyway, i'm just defending what i believe, and what science has already proven.

Theories != facts, my friend. Psychology and the developing mind are very complicated, even SCIENCE agrees with me on that one (le gasp) although I don't have a convinent Wikipedia page to link you to, sadly.

What people think may be the cause of homosexuality now may be discarded in the near future, our children may be sitting in history class reading what we think now, and laughing at it (much like we do to the people who thought the Earth was flat).



Straight people ruined marriage, long before we got to.

Well at least we can agree on something.


Seriously, I don't know what the hell your problem is. One of your first posts was "BAW BAW NO ONE WOULD EVER CHOOSE TO B DIS WAY SOB SOB", (which is what Meira was reffering to when asking why you thought your homosexuality was a problem - in case you haven't figured that out yet) but then you proceed to say how no one can change, and everyones lying, and blah blah bitch this bitch that.

Its almost like you tried to change, failed, and because of you being a failure in that you want to say everyone else is lying or something. I dunno. Whatever it is, its certainly odd.

You, my dear friend, seem frankly Psychotic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychotic Educated yourself, and get help.

[Nitro Vordex]

NOBODY HAS EVER CHANGED THEIR SEXUAL ORIENTATION.

i'm going to tell you what you've pretty much been telling everyone else.

Prove it.


Also, edit button, DO YOU USE IT? no

[Shadowpawn]

It's no use, he's just going to re-post the surgeon general's warning and rant some more. His argument involves a lot of circular logic

[Zantra]

That wouldn't make sense. Earlier in your arguments you called bisexuals lairs for not being able to stick with one sexual preference and now you're saying they are gay for the sake of a convenient argument. Also, what would be the point of an invitro fertilization if you're trying to convince the world you aren't gay, if anything that just makes the person more suspect to being accused of being as such by everyone close to you. I don't know about you but there aren't many people in the world who would pretend to be married to a person and have their children for the sake of keeping a secret that in no way affects their own life.

I never said Bisexuals were liars, you are misquoting me.

I said the only people who can have sex with both men and women, are either bisexuals, or they are lying about changing their orientation. Because you can't change your orientation.

Many straight men can't "do the deed" so they need invitro fertilization to give their wives a baby, it's not that uncommon.

You'd be suprised how many women just want to have children, and would even help out a gay friend, just so that they could have the joy of motherhood.

Plus, what about the women who had Michael Jackson's kids, or Clay Aiken's kid...

They used invitro.

[Zantra]

I'm sorry you're such a religious-phobe.

And a motherfucking thick one at that.

...Or would that be fatherfucking? Ah well.




Theories != facts, my friend. Psychology and the developing mind are very complicated, even SCIENCE agrees with me on that one (le gasp) although I don't have a convinent Wikipedia page to link you to, sadly.

What people think may be the cause of homosexuality now may be discarded in the near future, our children may be sitting in history class reading what we think now, and laughing at it (much like we do to the people who thought the Earth was flat).




Well at least we can agree on something.


Seriously, I don't know what the hell your problem is. One of your first posts was "BAW BAW NO ONE WOULD EVER CHOOSE TO B DIS WAY SOB SOB", (which is what Meira was reffering to when asking why you thought your homosexuality was a problem - in case you haven't figured that out yet) but then you proceed to say how no one can change, and everyones lying, and blah blah bitch this bitch that.

Its almost like you tried to change, failed, and because of you being a failure in that you want to say everyone else is lying or something. I dunno. Whatever it is, its certainly odd.

You, my dear friend, seem frankly Psychotic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychotic Educated yourself, and get help.

Ah... you don't know me.

:)

But, you are right about one thing.

I do hate religion.

It's the cause of almost all of the trouble in the world, frankly.

And, the main reason why you all think Homosexuality is a choice.

Because your Bible tells you so, and you can't think for yourselves.

[Nitro Vordex]

Ah... you don't know me.Same with everyone else.




And, the main reason why you all think Homosexuality is a choice.

Because your Bible tells you so, and you can't think for yourselves.

that doesn't make sense for the people who don't read the bible. (EX: me)

You do realize that most of this stuff you've posted, you've been TOLD, right?

So, you saying that we don't think for ourselves is invalid, becuase you're believing everything you're told.

To summerize this: STOP FUCKING TROLLING.

[Aisha379]

Ah... you don't know me.


Because your Bible tells you so, and you can't think for yourselves.

OH THE IRONY OF YOUR RETARDED MIND

Although I will just come out and say that I am a Christian (though not a very nice one, which I'm sure most people have realized by now.)


Seriously though, "You don't know me"? You're whole argument has been nothing but ASSUMING what other people are like and quoting Wikipedia pages.


I have to give you props though. I've known and got along with many people, of all different religious, political, and moral ideals. You are, without a doubt in my mind, the most hypocritical and downright stupidest person I have ever, and I honest to God mean EVER met.

I can only hope you are just trolling and intentionally acting this way...

But, whatever, enjoy being gay and never ever being able to change, or, whatever it exactly is you're fighting so hard for...@_@

[SpikeOtacon]

Alright fellas, let's take it down a notch with the circle jerk of flaming going on here and take a breath.

Also, this should probably be moved to rants. It is getting to serious for Off Topic in here.

[Aisha379]

Alright fellas, let's take it down a notch with the circle jerk of flaming going on here and take a breath.

Also, this should probably be moved to rants. It is getting to serious for Off Topic in here.

Or locked =X

[Zantra]

Yeah. It hasn't been on topic for the past 4 pages...

[Nitro Vordex]

Ah... you don't know me.

:)

But, you are right about one thing.

I do hate religion.

It's the cause of almost all of the trouble in the world, frankly.

And, the main reason why you all think Homosexuality is a choice.

Because your Bible tells you so, and you can't think for yourselves.

http://schwillz.com/stuff/total/pics/objection.gif
You're statement is invalid, please try again.

[SpikeOtacon]

Or locked =X

Well that is what I am hoping we can avoid. This topic is a very controversial and touchy subject but I believe we can handle the discussion of it without taking jabs at the other person. This is one of the most passionate threads I have seen in a while and I want to see it continue without becoming victim to a lock and a toss into the pits of FKL.

[Zantra]

You do realize that most of this stuff you've posted, you've been TOLD, right?

I could say the same for you, and I already have.

[Zantra]

The moral of this story, is that nobody likes to lose, and everyone thinks that they are right.

This is how most Wars start.

[Nitro Vordex]

Well that is what I am hoping we can avoid. This topic is a very controversial and touchy subject but I believe we can handle the discussion of it without taking jabs at the other person. This is one of the most passionate threads I have seen in a while and I want to see it continue without becoming victim to a lock and a toss into the pits of FKL.

Well, it's already severely off topic. I've already forgotten what this thread was originally discussing.

[Zantra]

Orson Scott Card is a homophobic tool.


http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2004-02-15-1.html

He also goes on to advocate anarchy and rebellion.

Okay, fine. But, let me ask, is so great about Ender's Game? As far as I can tell, it's the NSYNC of Scifi. Something you feel embarrassed about having read/listened in Middle-school.

Ah... this is what it was about... long ago.

[SpikeOtacon]

Well, it's already severely off topic. I've already forgotten what this thread was originally discussing.

Not really severely off-topic, it all started with Mr. Card's :disapprove: over homosexual marriage.

We're still kind of on the homosexual part.

[Zantra]

Not really severely off-topic, it all started with Mr. Card's :disapprove: over homosexual marriage.

We're still kind of on the homosexual part.

I think we've all agree'd to disagree.

[Alielle]

I'm just wondering how many of you straight people claiming that orientation is changeable "know" that you'll never be gay.

[Split]

Ender's Game was a great book.

[Solstis]

Well, it's already severely off topic. I've already forgotten what this thread was originally discussing.

I'm not sure why you thought that this post would help.

I guess that I can give the book a try, but it really does not sound special at all. Sounds like the sort of thing Kafka would have written (and done a better job of), if space travel were a more popular subject at the time. Still have a bunch of books to finish first, too.

[HUnewearl_Meira]

I don't regard it as a problem, but you seem to.

I challenge you to point out even once, where I stated outright that I have a problem with homosexuals.

[Aisha379]

I challenge you to point out even once, where I stated outright that I have a problem with homosexuals.

He was totally misinterpreting this:


Why do you regard your homosexuality as a problem?

Also, you've managed to do an incredible job of missing every point that Blitz made, and attack him, instead.

...yeah, I know...*shrug*...

[astuarlen]

I guess that I can give the book a try, but it really does not sound special at all. Sounds like the sort of thing Kafka would have written (and done a better job of), if space travel were a more popular subject at the time. Still have a bunch of books to finish first, too.

I've come to consume quite a bit of sci-fi in recent years, and IMO Ender's Game is not all that and a biscuit--not even that minus the all. Speaker for the Dead I found somewhat more interesting, but I still don't think Card's books (of those I've read) fare well compared to works by authors like Karl Schroeder (fascinating worldbuilding, to begin with), Ursula Le Guin, Roger Zelazny, Dan Simmons, John Wright (who also has an excellent scifi/fantasy/mythology hybrid series), and so on. For one, I found the main character of Ender's Game an unlikeable and maddeningly unlikely specimen. And judging from that article, I believe I might find Mr. Card himself to be similarly unpleasant--or at least that aspect of his personality.

[Nitro Vordex]

I'm not sure why you thought that this post would help.

I guess that I can give the book a try, but it really does not sound special at all. Sounds like the sort of thing Kafka would have written (and done a better job of), if space travel were a more popular subject at the time. Still have a bunch of books to finish first, too.

I could say the same about that sentence.

[Solstis]

I've come to consume quite a bit of sci-fi in recent years, and IMO Ender's Game is not all that and a biscuit--not even that minus the all. Speaker for the Dead I found somewhat more interesting, but I still don't think Card's books (of those I've read) fare well compared to works by authors like Karl Schroeder (fascinating worldbuilding, to begin with), Ursula Le Guin, Roger Zelazny, Dan Simmons, John Wright (who also has an excellent scifi/fantasy/mythology hybrid series), and so on. For one, I found the main character of Ender's Game an unlikeable and maddeningly unlikely specimen. And judging from that article, I believe I might find Mr. Card himself to be similarly unpleasant--or at least that aspect of his personality.

I am definitely giving Schroeder a try, considering that his first book is available for free on his website. I still might read Ender's Game, if just out of spite.

[Split]

Lots of adjectives come to my mind when I think of Ender, and unlikeable is not one of them (unlikely is, lol, i'll give you that). Also, his views on homosexuality don't exactly shine through in a book he wrote about the humanity's struggle against an alien race from a far away planet...

[astuarlen]

I am definitely giving Schroeder a try, considering that his first book is available for free on his website. I still might read Ender's Game, if just out of spite.

Haven't read Ventus yet--just Sun of Suns and Queen of Candesce, so far--but that one is certainly on my to-read list. I actually picked those up after seeing their cover illustrations in an artbook by one of my heroes, Stephan Martiniere (http://www.martiniere.com/).
Quite glad you pointed me to Schroeder's website, though, because the 3rd book of the Virga trilogy is set for release tomorrow.
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