Keeping the RPG (stat system) simple.

[Ryosuke_Kura]

In many RPGs (Ex. PSU, Star Ocean 3 these two stick out prominently at the moment ^__^) the numbers on the status screen don't match the numbers that you do in game.
I've wondered quite a few times why developers do this.

Instead of having to factor in other numbers to figure out what you do in-game, I think developers should just keep it simple.

For example, the hero has 500 attack points and the enemy has 250 defense.
When the hero hits the enemy he deals 250 damage points.
Why, because the hero's attack points minus the enemy's defense equals 250 damage.

Another example for accuracy and evasion.
The hero has 100 accuracy and the enemy has 25 evasion.
Since the hero has 100 accuracy he has a 75% chance of hitting the enemy.
Why, because 25 is 25% of 100 which means the enemy has a 25% chance to dodge while the hero has a 75% chance to hit.

I just think it would make RPG stat calculation and gameplay (number wise) easier to understand, instead of wondering why your character is doing 55,000 with only 20 attack points (major exaggeration, I know). ^^

[Nitro Vordex]

This isn't Yugioh. It's much more complex than that. You should see the equations for damage dealing on PSO. A good amount of math is involved.

[Toadthroat]

In most RPGs those stats are arbitrary numbers. Your HP, Attack, and Magic Attack stats are the only ones that really matter.
Its more about who has the strongest weapon and whatnot.

[Blitzkommando]

To expand a bit on PSO/PSU you had enemy type and element resistances/weaknesses as well as weapon types. RPGs can be very complex in gameplay and what you are talking about are probably what you would see in much older games where such variables didn't yet exist.

[rogue_robot]

I have to pretty much agree with the OP. If they'd keep things simpler, they might find that it becomes a lot easier to balance things out - numerically, as opposed to the usual shotgun approach of what "feels" right (and inevitably isn't) - and when adjustments do need to be made, they won't be stuck freaking out about how many things making said change might also affect, as with everything being simpler, it's gonna be quite a good deal easier to tell.

Of course, it's hard to make an RPG's stat system simple without closing off a lot of potential creative aspects and ending up with something bland - and they just don't have the time for that, what with deadlines and all.

[Scrub]

In this vain, am I the only one that gets irked when RPGs have to have GIGANTIC NUMBERS all of the time.

I don't want to be hitting for thousands of damage at level 3. That means I'm going to have to be keeping track of way too many fucking zeros by level 30.

Paper Mario did that shit RIGHT.

[UnderscoreX]

Imagine fighting optional bosses like Yiazmat from FFXII who has over 50 million HP, your attack stat would either have to be in the 10's of thousands or you'd be there all week.

Not to say that particular fight takes less than an hour anyways... stupid Yiazmat.

[Weeaboolits]

Bust out with some Madou Monogatari


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_PP9tCZaOk

I don' need no numbers, never did me no good.

[Kent]

This isn't Yugioh. It's much more complex than that. You should see the equations for damage dealing on PSO. A good amount of math is involved.

You should see all of the calculations used in Final Fantasy XI.

Compared to it, things like PSO are pretty simple...

But if you want simplicity in your RPG's numbers, go play WoW. Seriously. It has one of the most straight-forward systems for calculating what goes on in battle. :/

[Ryosuke_Kura]

This isn't Yugioh. It's much more complex than that. You should see the equations for damage dealing on PSO. A good amount of math is involved.

Is it necessary though to have to factor in all those other numbers?



In most RPGs those stats are arbitrary numbers. Your HP, Attack, and Magic Attack stats are the only ones that really matter.
Its more about who has the strongest weapon and whatnot.

If they simplified the stat system it might bring about more challenge for the RPG, instead of having to rely on those stats. ^^;



To expand a bit on PSO/PSU you had enemy type and element resistances/weaknesses as well as weapon types. RPGs can be very complex in gameplay and what you are talking about are probably what you would see in much older games where such variables didn't yet exist.

I'm talking about base stats before any thing is added to them (buffs, weapon power, etc.).



Imagine fighting optional bosses like Yiazmat from FFXII who has over 50 million HP, your attack stat would either have to be in the 10's of thousands or you'd be there all week.

Not to say that particular fight takes less than an hour anyways... stupid Yiazmat.

Balance LOL, and see my post above.



You should see all of the calculations used in Final Fantasy XI.

Compared to it, things like PSO are pretty simple...

But if you want simplicity in your RPG's numbers, go play WoW. Seriously. It has one of the most straight-forward systems for calculating what goes on in battle. :/

I wasn't aware of that.

[Outrider]

You should try designing an RPG sometime. It's not really as easy as it might seem.

I've got nothing wrong with very simply stat systems, but that's an entirely different beast from the mega-calculated stats of the big epic rpgs. A simple system can work really well, but the more complex a game gets (and remember, lots of people like super-complex RPGs), the more likely the simple formula starts to become obsolete.

But hells yeah, Scrub. Paper Mario knew what it was doing.

[rogue_robot]

Anyone heard of the KISS rule? As in, "Keep it simple, stupid." 50 million Hp wouldn't be necessary to make a boss tough if attack power wasn't grinded through this uber-long equation just to determine damage. I don't mean to say that you shouldn't do any manipulations of the numbers to produce the results, I just don't think that it should take more than a couple of steps. If you're dividing, adding, multiplying, subtracting, dividing again, then adding again, then subtracting again, and finally multiplying one last time, and squaring or square-rooting something in there for good measure, you probably have more things in there affecting the results than you actually need.


For example: I've been working on a system of my own for quite some time, and the current damage formula, which I'm quite pleased with, is as follows:


[Damage/Potency] = ((0.4375 * [Energy Cost] + 1) * [Attack] - [Defense]) * [Hit Modifier]


That's it - four variables, and two constants. It doesn't matter whether the attacker is a PC or an NPC, it doesn't matter whether the attack is physical or magical - hell, it doesn't even matter whether it's an attack or a support ability.

Also: some may be wondering where element resistance comes into account. Just as there are separate "physical" and "magical" attack power stats, both of which are used as "attack" in this equation (depending on whether you're using physical abilities or magic), the defense stat is actually separated out into multiple defense scores - one for each of the six attributes I'm using (well, technically, the sixth is the "neutral" attribute, and your defense against that is always the average of the other five). (That I actually do for balance reasons more than anything - it's easy to balance one point of defense against one point of attack - in this case, five points of defense in any of the non-neutral attributes is equivalent to one point of attack - but not so easy to balance percent modifiers to a stat, unless every percent modifier is accompanied by a drawback.)


EDIT: There is one other component I'm using in the damage equation, but it involves the yet-incomplete accuracy and evasion equation. Basically, rather than randomly determining damage on a "hit," I use the value of how much your (random-modified) accuracy beat out their (random-modified) evasion to determine how much the damage value is "randomized." Basically, if you only barely surpass the target's evasion, you deal less damage than normal (a graze), with just how much less being determined by how close to missing you were. Alternatively, if your accuracy stepped on their evasion like a bug, you deal more damage than normal (a critical), with just how much more again being determined by how much you surpassed their evasion. I went ahead and added "hit modifier" above for clarity.

[Sord]

Anyone heard of the KISS rule? As in, "Keep it simple, stupid."

haven't heard that since 5th grade, about 7 years ago. Music teacher always used it.

anyways, agree that a lot of it is over overcomplicated. Though this is sometimmes due to creating a sense of realism though. If you hit somebody (in rl) you're not going to do the same amount of damage every time. There are dozens of factors effecting it, where you hit, how hard you hit, how resistant their body is, are they moving, did they go with the blow, etc. Which is kind of ironic in it's own way, because most RPG moves, if you hit somebody with, it would kill them almost instantly in reality.

[rogue_robot]

I understand the whole lethality thing - I intend for even the most basic attacks to kill in three hits tops. Everything misses more frequently, though (I'm balancing under the assumption of PvP, where I don't have to care about how random things get, unlike the usual PvE attitude of "randomization hurts the player" - fortunately, PvP systems can work quite well for PvE, even if the reverse isn't true).

[Solstis]

People that consider PSU to be complicated have never played EVE.

PSU: I need to stand close to hit the monster with my sword.
EVE: I need to watch my transversal velocity, otherwise my turrets won't track the target.

Not to say that EVE is more fun. It really isn't.

[Weeaboolits]

A lot of games end up doing weird calculations with the stats then throwing in damage variance and all else.

This game (http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/index.php?title=Status#Strength) for example has some instances of multiple stats influencing the same effect (both will and luck determine the critical rate), while other stats can effect the minimum and maximum damage as well as the damage variance. Furthermore it has two separate defensive stats, defense and protection, the former is simply subtractive, while the latter is percentage based reduction as well as lowering your enemy's critical hit rate.

Personally, I kinda think it's neat, it's not like I need to work it out myself on paper or anything.

[Ryosuke_Kura]

You should try designing an RPG sometime. It's not really as easy as it might seem.

I've got nothing wrong with very simply stat systems, but that's an entirely different beast from the mega-calculated stats of the big epic rpgs. A simple system can work really well, but the more complex a game gets (and remember, lots of people like super-complex RPGs), the more likely the simple formula starts to become obsolete.

But hells yeah, Scrub. Paper Mario knew what it was doing.

Do you mean complex as in how you play the game affecting how the stats work?

Also, that's a good idea, I'll check out the RPG Maker series.


Anyone heard of the KISS rule? As in, "Keep it simple, stupid." 50 million Hp wouldn't be necessary to make a boss tough if attack power wasn't grinded through this uber-long equation just to determine damage. I don't mean to say that you shouldn't do any manipulations of the numbers to produce the results, I just don't think that it should take more than a couple of steps. If you're dividing, adding, multiplying, subtracting, dividing again, then adding again, then subtracting again, and finally multiplying one last time, and squaring or square-rooting something in there for good measure, you probably have more things in there affecting the results than you actually need.


For example: I've been working on a system of my own for quite some time, and the current damage formula, which I'm quite pleased with, is as follows:


[Damage/Potency] = ((0.4375 * [Energy Cost] + 1) * [Attack] - [Defense]) * [Hit Modifier]

That's it - four variables, and two constants.

Yep, yep.



People that consider PSU to be complicated have never played EVE.

PSU: I need to stand close to hit the monster with my sword.
EVE: I need to watch my transversal velocity, otherwise my turrets won't track the target.

Not to say that EVE is more fun. It really isn't.

I'm saying how RPG stats should be simple and match in-game numbers, not that the gameplay is complex.

If you were referring to rogue and sords conversation then nevermind me. =P



A lot of games end up doing weird calculations with the stats then throwing in damage variance and all else.

This game (http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/index.php?title=Status#Strength) for example has some instances of multiple stats influencing the same effect (both will and luck determine the critical rate), while other stats can effect the minimum and maximum damage as well as the damage variance. Furthermore it has two separate defensive stats, defense and protection, the former is simply subtractive, while the latter is percentage based reduction as well as lowering your enemy's critical hit rate.

Personally, I kinda think it's neat, it's not like I need to work it out myself on paper or anything.

Yeah, it's not something I would need to know, but it would be cool to know why I was doing or taking a certain amount of damage.
Without having to factor in too many other things.

The same could be said if I wanted to increase a stat, I would like to know how much of a difference it would be making.

[Randomness]

Some RPGs, all you need to know about stats is that higher=better. (Final Fantasy, for instance)

Others, you really want to know EXACTLY whats going to happen. (I'm looking at you, Fire Emblem-though FE does give you a breakdown of the results of your stats if you want it)

[Split]

play castle crashers

[amtalx]

If you dumb down the stats too much it gets boring. Doing static damage and know exactly what will happen in every situation gets old FAST.

[Outrider]

Just thinking about this and I wanted to be clear that sometimes I really enjoy very simple games. I've come up with quite a few concepts for extremely simple RPGs with single and double digit stats and I think it can be pretty neat.

[thematesV2]

when it comes to larger numbers, it's quite often just that they offered a broader scope of detail. you could say that to hit 1589 would be to hit 1.589, but who would want decimals on the screen?

so people who want more detailed and varying stats in their game will make those games with more variables which combine to make up the final actual stats your character has. also... a lot of modern rpgs' stats are going more the way of strategy games than older rpgs. I mean look at all the zelda games, those have stayed with the hit 1 time and he's dead, or hit 10 times and he's head rule. granted, there are numbers behind that, but they don't show up on the screen..... and they are simple.

some people like to build more complex systems I guess..

(Edit) also... I forgot to add, alot of people get more exited to see bigger numbers on the screen, makes them feel more epic, so that might also be some of the reason some games end up with the systems they do... and I'm speaking about both the designers and the players. people tend to forget that the designers are obsessed too.....(Edit)

[Kent]

(Edit) also... I forgot to add, alot of people get more exited to see bigger numbers on the screen, makes them feel more epic, so that might also be some of the reason some games end up with the systems they do... and I'm speaking about both the designers and the players. people tend to forget that the designers are obsessed too.....(Edit)

Part of the design decision between putting ridiculous numbers on screen is to make players feel as if they did something truly awesome.

A good example would be in Final Fantasy X. Typically, your characters are capped at doing four digits of damage... And then you get Bahamut. If your heaviest-hitter can do 9999 damage at most... One would assume that most of the Aeons would have this similar cap, and treat it as a universal constant.

And the Bahamut lets out a Mega-Flare and hits everything for 99999. Suddenly, a summon becomes pants-wettingly epic.

This sort of thing also applies in strategy games, which typically dealt with numbers on a smaller scale. There could be, for example, large attacks that involve multiple characters, that has an increased damage cap to it. Something to make players think "Huh, that's super effective."

Though, I would love to see some sort of RPG that dealt with decimal points... Or all of its numbers were in hex. That'd be awesome. I think I'll do that sometime...

[Sharkyland]

You know I've been wondering about air juggling in fighting games as well (kinda the turn off for me in fighting games), but I have a sense of what you are saying. I'm adding like 50points to attack and it just raised my attack by 2 damage, wow, something's not right here.

[Kizeragi]

Though, I would love to see some sort of RPG that dealt with decimal points... Or all of its numbers were in hex. That'd be awesome. I think I'll do that sometime...

Seconded.

There's some RPG's out there that have so many calculations, it's just plain crazy. Even games like Final Fantasy, which tends to be max stats at 255 = win every battle, even with that fights such as VII's Emerald/Ruby Weapons (without the use of glitches) and X's Penance, your max stats mean NOTHING. I'll admit most of Final Fantasy involves no proper planning but when you go after creatures with huge amounts of HP/Attack etc, more strategy is invovled than you might think.

Simple game with RPG stat elements? Theres a few out there, the easiest by far is Runescape, but you really don't want to play that.

[Kent]

You know I've been wondering about air juggling in fighting games as well (kinda the turn off for me in fighting games), but I have a sense of what you are saying. I'm adding like 50points to attack and it just raised my attack by 2 damage, wow, something's not right here.
Assuming you're talking about a combo (like an air juggle), most fighting games, especially Capcom ones, institute an effect of diminishing returns on longer chains of attacks, for balance reasons - usually to make slow, powerful characters more viable in the face of faster characters that can chain together huge combos.

Which makes sense... That's one way to do things, without making said fast character too weapon per-hit, just make the hits get weaker, the longer the combo gets, until all of the attacks are eventually just shaving off extra bits of health. I don't doubt that some RPGs that allow combo attacks to be chained together (such as Valkyrie Profile - though I don't remember this being the case here) apply diminishing returns to some extent, but probably not as extreme as in some fighting games.

[Zorafim]

I kind of liked FFIVDS's calculations. From what I could tell, Strength was subtraced with target vitality, then the number was multiplied by the weapon strength. The amount of damage you did was also dependent on how quickly you attacked, making speed an important stat as well. Though I did kind of feel that speed was underpowered, since I could barely tell the difference between my 60 speed Edge and my 40 speed Cecil...

I agree though, I think the calculations should be simple enough for the player to understand what's going on. I like how, in WoW, I know exactly which piece of gear is better on me, since I can see the difference, or calculate it in my head. But at the same time, it should be complicated enough to be able to account for a variety of different factors. I dislike how the guy swinging around a huge sword outdamages the guy dancing around with the small one, despite how common sense would tell you that the smaller sword would be more combat viable.

[Toadthroat]

I dislike how the guy swinging around a huge sword outdamages the guy dancing around with the small one, despite how common sense would tell you that the smaller sword would be more combat viable.

uhm...Thats debatable. Lets not get into real world sword battles, but common vidya gaem logic is this: Bigger weapons are slower, but do more damage. Smaller weapons are faster, do less damage.

This is pretty much universal throughout all games and I see no reason why it should be changed.

[thematesV2]

true, I mean, look at a little sword, it's quick and can be placed very precicely and do sharp damage, but why was the bastard sword invented? it was brought about to break plate armor or bypass the armor and break the body inside, which a little/medium sword (in the hands of an average soldier) can do little about. same with war hammers.

I'm all about small swords or daggers in the hands of a fiery lithe assasin warrior, but I'll hand it to them, the guys with the bastard swords can deal out the damage.

[ForceOfBrokenGlass]

Well, the old German Zweihanders (Claymores?) were designed for combating pikes. If you want to take a D&D approach to it yeah, tinier weapons do less damage, This is where you have your little finesse fighter tack on the feats like Weapon Finesse and Improved Critical, to up their damage. It's not automatic, and is much more intuitive vs the Barbarian with the Greataxe who's doing so much damage in a single strike.

I think D&D 3.5 had a good idea on static stats and variable effects too.

[Kent]

Typically, the idea is that larger weapons pack a lot of brute force, and smaller weapons have some other added benefit to them, such as higher critical hit rate, or sheer number of attacks to make up the difference.

In many cases (games-wise), one-handed weapons are always inferior to two-handed weapons... So, to compensate, you can use a one-handed weapon in each hand, or you're allowed a shield of some sort in your other hand, to allow you to sacrifice offense for defense.

There is one thing that's missing here, however, and that's the idea of using a one-handed weapon, and keeping the other hand free. It's one thing that's rarely ever addressed in games. I'd like to see some sort of bonus to this - such as "hand-and-a-half" functionality on certain weapons, or an accuracy/expertise bonus to fighting in that way... Or even additional grappling or unarmed attacks allowed from it.

Something that would make it equally as viable as using a two-hander, dual-wielding, or using a one-hander and shield, but serve a different enough of a purpose to justify its existance.

[Solstis]

There is one thing that's missing here, however, and that's the idea of using a one-handed weapon, and keeping the other hand free. It's one thing that's rarely ever addressed in games. I'd like to see some sort of bonus to this - such as "hand-and-a-half" functionality on certain weapons, or an accuracy/expertise bonus to fighting in that way... Or even additional grappling or unarmed attacks allowed from it.

Something that would make it equally as viable as using a two-hander, dual-wielding, or using a one-hander and shield, but serve a different enough of a purpose to justify its existance.

That's an amazing idea, Kent. A person with a free hand would be able to interact with their environment to much greater degree than they could otherwise.

Might be a bit complicated, though.

[Toadthroat]

I think D&D and all its variations have a feat that gives bonuses for wielding a light handed weapon in one hand and not using anything else.

Also in KotoR, there is a feat for bonuses for wielding a single lightsaber.
But thats the only two examples I can think of.

[ForceOfBrokenGlass]

My friend has most of the 3.5 books, but I remember there's a whole slew of feats and classes in the expanded sets that grant you bonuses for carrying just one weapon in one hand and keeping the other free. I think most of them if tuned properly made you particularly difficult to hit though. There was also a casting class or two that made it easier to melee and cast at the same time if you had one hand free.

[thematesV2]

that makes sense, as D&D seems to be one of the most developed and intelligent structures on earth.. (I don't play at all, but look at how many brilliant people have been obsessed with it for decades.... all those revisions and updates, beats the hell out of PSU' balancing updates!!!! :) )

anyhow, What about skills involving capes as weapons? i'm not talking like superhero style, I'm speaking matador/general/knight style, capes are used in history as a decoy/cover item in place of a weapon. they are used to cover one's movement from an experienced enemy, or to confuse inexperienced enemies.

also, heavy cloaks/capes were used as stalling tools in battles, to make your opponent fumble, or throw off their balance,

just an idea. they would have to be updated to fit into PSU, but they would still be sweet.

that could be a empty hand bonus...your empty hand could use something on you or around you to confuse/distract enemy.