DpS: Twin Handguns vs Rifle

[MoorePSO]

I've heard and seen some calculations claiming that Rifles out-damage Handguns in the DpS race, so I decided to test it for myself.

For my testing, I compared what I have at hand:


Rattlesnake 4/4 [Att.: 665] with Rising Shot 35 [Att. 185%]
Twin Varista 5/9 [Att.: 248] with Twin Rising 33 [Att. 158%]


Method:


First I determined Rate of Fire (RoF ; the number of shots per minute). To do this, I counted the number of "attacks" (total volley per button press rather than actual bullets fired) I could perform in ten seconds five times with each weapon. I averaged the totals from all five trials and multiplied by 6.
Second I determied the Average Damage per Shot (aD/S). To do this, I tested against a neutral enemy -- SEED-Guardian (Kn), level 90 -- killing an entire spawn of four (with each gun) noting the minimum damage (excluding zeros) and maximum damage (excluding criticals) per bullet. Then I added the minimum and maximum and divided by 2. (Note: That is an average per bullet. Consequently, the average per attack for the twin handguns is approximately double the aD/S.)
Next, I calculated the Damage per Minute (DpM) by multiplying the RoF times the aD/S (multiplying by 2 again for the Twins).
Finally, I calculated the Damage per Second (DpS) by dividing the DpM by 60. (No adjustment was made for the Twins since the DpM is already adjusted.)


Considerations:


This test does not take elemental bonuses/penalties into account.
This test does not take misses, zeros, and criticals into account.
Numbers are approximations.


Results:

Rattlesnake:
- RoF. = ~102 [average of 17 shots per ten seconds]
- aD/S = ~756 [min. 734; max. 778]
- DpM. = ~77,112 [756 x 60)
- DpS. = ~1,285 [DpM / 60]

Twin Varista:
- RoF. = ~78 [average of 13 shots per ten seconds]
- aD/S = ~501 [min. 494; max. 508]
- DpM. = ~78,156 [(501 x 60) x 2]
- DpS. = ~1,302 [DpM / 60]


Conclusion:

Even with almost 220 Att. less than the Rattlesnake, and a 27% lower attack modifier, my Twin Varista out-DpS's my Rattlesnake by about 1.3%. A better pair (more Att.) of Twin Hanguns would show a greater DpS gap.

So assuming that my methodology is not entirely FUBAR'd and I didn't miss any details, it seems to me that Twin Handguns are every bit as solid a weapon as Rifles in the appropropriate situations.

[Astarin]

I'll have another look at this later, but omitting elemental bonuses/penalties seems to be a rather large oversight. They can alter your damage numbers significantly.

[MoorePSO]

I thought of that, but the elemental difference is only 4% at 31+ & 41+. That 4% increase for Rifles (against opposite elements) isn't that substantial, is it?

Even taking that into consideration, Twins still appear to be on par with Rifles and, thus, "are every bit as solid a weapon ... in the appropropriate situations."


Thanks for the feedback!

[Alastor_Haven]

Pretty

Hrith will be here to obviously counter

[Gen2000]

This should be entertaining for a few days. The challenger seems strong.

[Umberger]

Only problem is that rifles are more of a utility than they are a (primary) source of damage, and twin handguns are way too situational to be good. Rifles are meant for knockdown and flying bosses/enemies if you really want. Twin handguns are good if you're facing Sen/Orcdillans, and they're charging at you, but you won't be able to knock them down with a rifle, and your shotgun would not hit with all of its bullets...there's other situations, of course...but they are few and far between.

Not to be hating on the comparison or anything, by all means I think it's pretty neat to see figures like this, good job on the numbar crunching. =p

[Golto]

Try lvl 150+ monsters, their higher dfp will make the difference even smaller because its deducted twice for twins.

[Dakkon]

Also, as you compared 35 and 33 bullets, you should keep in mind Twin Handguns bullets grow at a 1% damage modifier increase per level from 30 to 50 while Rifles growth is 2% per bullet level, broadening at 40, and even more at 50, not to mention the rifle's knock down and a factor incalculable;

Damage availability:
The time lost during the application of the DPS between the targets, a Rifle can dominate one big room nonstop while the Twin Handguns shorter range requires movement (even despite strafing constant firing) and or repositionment, this is aggravated in cases such as Mechgun VS Crossbow where it does seem the Crossbow wins on paper, but pointblanking or ensuring the three bolts to connect at range wastes time, specially when not soloing, where you don't get all the mobs' attention.

Other factors to mention influencing the DPS formula, luckily without much application in the current Rifle VS T. Handguns case, is the Damage Exceed, as when you you blast 9k HP enemies with your Shotgun that does 800x5 (4000 dmg) and you need a third shot just for 1k remaining HP, "wasting" 3000 damage stopping for 3 blast at every enemy, or every two depending on your expertise at Shotgun pointblanking, which is a must, but well, whatever, one more shot almost wasted, 33% of your time, a pretty sensitive chunk of time in some solo runs where certain Fortegunners use the Shotgun almost from start to finish. This is only noticeable in Shotties and Xbows, and to a lesser extent Twin Handguns.

[MoorePSO]

Thanks for the feedback, folks!


Also, as you compared 35 and 33 bullets, you should keep in mind Twin Handguns bullets grow at a 1% damage modifier increase per level from 30 to 50 while Rifles growth is 2% per bullet level, broadening at 40, and even more at 50...
Excellent point! Thanks!

As it stands, the variance between my two bullets (at levels 33 & 35) is 27%. However, level 50 Rising Shot has an Att. modifier of 215% while Twin Rising's is 175% (based upon data from the PSO-World item database). At level 50, the variance will be 40%, which I'm sure will make a noticeable difference.

Nevermind.

Twin Tornado +5 only has 18 more Att. than Twin Varista +5 and Hyper Viper +5 only has 1 more Att. What this tells me is that my tests are actually as about as close of a comparison as I can get (without testing Battlestopper or Guld & Milla).

Considering that the Att. modifier variance opens up to 30% at level 40, giving Rifles a slight edge, on average, and increasing beyond level 40, I am forced to conclude that Rifles, in the end (Level 40+), will, indeed, out-DpS Twin Handguns. I think the margin, however, will be small enough to warrant keeping a pair of Twins on my pallet as GM.


Thanks, everyone, for helping me hash this out, if even in my own benefit.

[biggabertha]

Ignoring accuracy or the misses that you get isn't so good I don't think.

Twin Handguns have less accuracy than Rifles and less range as well as shoot more times than a Rifle over one minute.

So in theory, Twin Handguns may work out to be stronger than Rifles but Rifles can afford to miss more often than Twin Handguns and still keep the damage on par. If Twin Handguns miss out several shots at a time, then using a Rifle seems to be better.

I think you do need to try this experiment again with Lv. 40 bullets though. Element is going to matter a lot too, the numbers are going to be pretty different when you go along with those parameters.

Nice work though. I think a lot of people use Twin Handguns on a Fortegunner just because of their looks though but that's just me. They're cool, I'll admit but I've been a Protranser for too long and after using a Longbow for so long, the fast firing rate of a Rifle's just too good to pass up on if I have access to it.

[amtalx]

Rifles are still better. SE5 + knockdown can't be beat, and you really can't ignore 0s and elemental damage considering that both are in favor of Rifles.

*waits for Hrith propaganda*

[Hrith]

Those figures are off, not worth reading.

Let's compare a 50% Bragnoh to a 10% Ank Zagza. Oh, the Bragnoh is better, incredible!

[fay]

i actually prefer twin handguns.....

not to mention i actually find rifles to be one of my least favorite guns lol
i think i must have one of the weirdest tastes of weapons ever. everyone seems to disagree with my melee weapons of choice also. (that being axes are the worst weapon in the game etc lol)

[MoorePSO]

Those figures are off, not worth reading.

Let's compare a 50% Bragnoh to a 10% Ank Zagza. Oh, the Bragnoh is better, incredible!
Condescending & Dismissive. Not an opinion worth considering or caring about.


If you have anything substantive and constructive to add, then by all means, please, share your superior wisdom with us. Otherwise, STFU & GTFO.

[Alastor_Haven]

Those figures are off, not worth reading.

Let's compare a 50% Bragnoh to a 10% Ank Zagza. Oh, the Bragnoh is better, incredible!

This doesn't even REMOTELY have to do anything with the subject

And without YOUR so called ''Math''

I find it hard to believe that your in denial of facts

Instead you create made up garbage

Rather yet

Ignore the subject off hand

Done

[Syl]

Condescending & Dismissive. Not an opinion worth considering or caring about.


If you have anything substantive and constructive to add, then by all means, please, share your superior wisdom with us. Otherwise, STFU & GTFO.

Don't worry about it too much, Hrithalus isn't understood by anyone but Hrith so there's no point in asking for his numbers >_>

[Dark Emerald EXE]

This doesn't even REMOTELY have to do anything with the subject

And without YOUR so called ''Math''

I find it hard to believe that your in denial of facts

Instead you create made up garbage

Rather yet

Ignore the subject off hand

Done

Alastor Wins!!!!

[Hrith]

(...)Just because you're too stupid to understand does not mean everyone else is.



(absolute lack of argument)Yes, I know it's hard to face the hard facts.

Your figures are off, how can I contribute any further?
Even if you calculations are correct, they don't mean anything with erroneous figures.

Secondly, you're comparing weapons in a situation which is only relevant if 1/ your bullet has no element (who the fuck uses Twin Mayalee and Mayalee Shot?) or 2/ you're fighting neutral monsters, in which case you might have a point if there was not much better weapons to fight those neutral monsters, whether you're Fortegunner or Gunmaster.

Also, let me repeat, your figures are WAY off.

If you had read other recent topics before blindly starting yours, you could have noticed what I have already calculated (ages ago, too) about this, and not ridicule yourself so much.

What you just did is as good as comparing, as stated above, a 50% 9* melee weapon and a 10% 11* melee weapon, remarking that the 9* deals more damage, and concluding that the 9* version is therefore mathematically a better weapon. That's how relevant the information you posted is.

In case it's still not clear, your figures are WAY off.

[Alastor_Haven]

If I'm the one whos stupid and CAN NOT understand?

Then why can't you give US YOUR numbers?
Then why can't you give us YOUR SO CALLED MATH?

It's easy right?

Instead of ignoring the OP's numbers?

I mean really

You just proved your ignoring everything offhand man

IT'S OFF IT'S OFF IT'S OFF

Without proof

You lose

Sir



Cmon haha

[Dark Emerald EXE]

Wow all this over some numbers......smh

[Dakkon]

Thanks for the feedback, folks!


I am forced to conclude that Rifles, in the end (Level 40+), will, indeed, out-DpS Twin Handguns. I think the margin, however, will be small enough to warrant keeping a pair of Twins on my pallet as GM.


Thanks, everyone, for helping me hash this out, if even in my own benefit.


He just politely conceded and concluded that Rifles are superior, and just made his personal note about how he will keep using his Twin Handguns because he likes the weapon.

What's the point for further discussion?

The OP himself courteusly surrended, stop the bashing, there is nothing left here to argue. Try to show the same education as he did.

[MoorePSO]

(absolute lack of argument)
This from the original "absolute lack of argument" in this thread.

Yeah, "Those figures are off, not worth reading," is so substantive! /sarcasm

ROTFLMAO!




Your figures are off, how can I contribute any further?
Simple. By elaborating upon your initial premise, "Those figures are off". Which you still haven't done.



Even if you calculations are correct, they don't mean anything with erroneous figures.
Your "rebuttal" means nothing without subtantiation. None of which have you bothered to offer in your condescending dismissal.



Secondly, you're comparing weapons in a situation which is only relevant if 1/ your bullet has no element... or 2/ you're fighting neutral monsters, in which case you might have a point...
Yup. I was looking at a "baseline". The fact is, not everyone uses opposite element bullets in every situation. Ground can be very handy to shut-down Gaozorans even though Light will do more damage. In that case it is the same net effect (in terms of damage calculations) as using a neutral bullet or fighting a neutral enemy.


And, if you'd bothered to read past your ego, I conceded in Post #9 that elemental percentages would ultimately put rifles past twins.



... if there was not much better weapons to fight those neutral monsters, whether you're Fortegunner or Gunmaster.
Since I was only comparing DpS between Rifles and Twin Handguns, whether there is anything better is completely irrelevant to the topic.



Also, let me repeat, your figures are WAY off.
Statements without evidence or argument are meaningless.



If you had read other recent topics before blindly starting yours, you could have noticed what I have already calculated (ages ago, too) about this...
Yup. And rather than take them at face value, and just trust some pompous, self-professed expert at his word, I decided to attempt to verify it for myself through actual testing.



What you just did is as good as comparing, as stated above, a 50% 9* melee weapon and a 10% 11* melee weapon, remarking that the 9* deals more damage, and concluding that the 9* version is therefore mathematically a better weapon.
In otherwords, there's too much of a discrepancy between Att. and/or elemental percentages to make it a valid comparison. Fair enough.

But in that case, comparing a Rifle with exactly twice the Acc. (to level the per-attack Att.) as the Twin Handguns and using bullets of the exact same elemental percentage and damage modifier, the Twins would come out farther ahead.

Since you haven't shown that my methodology was flawed -- Hint: Claiming I'm wrong is not demonstrating that I'm wrong -- I can only conclude that my methodology was sound. So, since...


I tested twins with less than half the Att. of the rifle; and



I testing using bullets with a 3% elemental difference and a 27% difference in damage modifier...

... and the Twins showed a slightly better rate of DpS, "leveling" the Att., Elemental Percentage, and Bullet Att. Modifier would put the twins even farther ahead.




In case it's still not clear, your figures are WAY off.
In case it's still not clear, just claiming it doesn't make it so. Statements without substantiation are meaningless.



Now, you obviously have nothing of substance, constructive or otherwise, to contribute to this discussion, so STFU & GTFO.

[MoorePSO]

The OP himself courteusly surrended, stop the bashing, there is nothing left here to argue. Try to show the same education as he did.

Thank you, Dakkon. If I had bothered to read past Hrith's (non)rebuttal to me, far enough to read this ^, then I might not have taken the bait...

[Genoa]

I never understood why people compare classes, weapons, races, etc... against each other when all the combinations are situational.

In comparison to EACH OTHER:
Twin Handguns:
Mobility to strafe and fire
Less range in comparison
Lvl.2 status effects
Fires 2 shots (however the ATP difference combined with elemental difference and accuracy difference still doesn't over-damage a Rifle)
Same PP cost, but less PP than rifles

Rifles:
Knockdown at 31+
Longer range
Lvl.5 status effects
Fires 1 shot with considerably higher ATP combined with more elemental % and accuracy.
Same PP cost, more PP than Twin handguns

The firing rate isn't much different, however, it really comes down to either:
Your need for mobility, range, knockdown, status effect sticking, OR (God forbid) playing preference.

[dc534]

Alright I am not going to go into to many details but here is what my FiG can hit with his Dual pistols:

2 shots x ~1030per/shot with lvl 4 buffs
or ~880 with lvl 2 megistride.

Either way as far as dps is concerned I can see how someone can argue the dualies can out dps a rifle, especially with the ease of movement.

This argument I thought was over dps not dps at certain ranges. I would just say take a rifle in best circumstance, and the dualies and I believe you can clearly see both can be used in different circumstances

[mvffin]

dualies are not for dodging enemies, they are for chasing enemies who like to move around.

[Astarin]

dualies are not for dodging enemies, they are for chasing enemies who like to move around.

Thank you! For some reason, this keeps getting overlooked, even though it's probably the most unique advantage of twin handguns. It seems some people would rather brow-beat the same points into the ground.

[Genoa]

dualies are not for dodging enemies, they are for chasing enemies who like to move around.

Well... enemies moving around can be shot down with a rifle (and by shot down... I mean it literally) and besides, the range on rifle makes it where you don't HAVE to chase down enemies. But if other targets get in front of your shots... but then again, what would be wrong with shooting down a target that crosses into your current target? =/

[Tycho]

As others have stated, the weapons are used for different purposes.
I share Hrith's opinion of Twin Handguns' DPS potential being underestimated here. Ofcourse an obvious argument for this would be the awkward comparison of a 11* Rifle to 7* Twin Handguns, but I believe another argument should be added in favour of Twins.
Fieldwork is nice and all, but as stated above, it is situational for experiments like this, and therefore not very fit to draw universal conclusions from.
The obvious flaw here is that Twin Handguns get most of their DPS from their firing rate rather than from their ATP, as Rifles do. Now, as characters get more ATP by themselves, the balance will shift in favour of Twin Handguns (hence a lot of people eventually ended up using fast weapons like Mechguns on PSO for similar reasons).

In short, the game is still balanced, because eventually Twin Handguns still have more damage potential, while Rifles still have other uses (SE, knockback, range). .. As most people already knew.

[Hrith]

Thank you, Dakkon. If I had bothered to read past Hrith's (non)rebuttal to me, far enough to read this ^, then I might not have taken the bait...I love people who cannot face being proven so totally wrong, cannot even show decency towards their own persona.

[GreenArcher]

Protip: use both :wacko:

[R2D6battlebot]

Yup. I was looking at a "baseline". The fact is, not everyone uses opposite element bullets in every situation. Ground can be very handy to shut-down Gaozorans even though Light will do more damage. In that case it is the same net effect (in terms of damage calculations) as using a neutral bullet or fighting a neutral enemy.

You're testing DPS, this argument is meaningless, seeing as to get the best DPS it is obvious to use opposing elements on creatures. Either way, this argument totally fails because the opposite element to a Gaozoran (light) inflicts Confusion, which is every bit as good at shutting down their techniques as Silence is, while the bullet hits for considerably more damage.




Yup. And rather than take them at face value, and just trust some pompous, self-professed expert at his word, I decided to attempt to verify it for myself through actual testing.

So rather than read what other people have already done, to compare the possible flaws in their tests and hopefully correct them with your own, you just ignore it all and throw numbers together in the hope that people will blindly follow your opinions? Fail.

Look, I can throw simple numbers together too, while ignoring other uses.

1. Rifles get approximately 3 bullets fired for every 4 bullets from a Twin Handgun (3 Rifle Attacks / 2 Twin Handguns, this is using your test from page 1).

2. Rifles hit for around 750 damage per shot. Twin Handguns hit for approximately 500 damage per shot. So, using the information from point number 1, we have a basic formula to input numbers onto!

Rifle - 750+750+750 = 2250 damage
Twin Handgun - 500+500+500+500 = 2000 damage

So, it seems like even using your own numbers, the edge is still given to Rifles given the right amount of time. Your numbers fail, too many factors are not included (elemental percentage, accuracy, knockdown, range, mobility, and the one nobody seems to have noticed, DAMAGE FROM STATUS EFFECTS). A rifle with just level 4 SE will cause 5% (whereas Twin Burn will only be 3% per tick) of the creatures total HP per tick (2 seconds per tick for SE4 Burn, 4 seconds per tick for SE4 Virus), so again, there is almost no situation where a Twin Handgun will be the best choice for a GM (and even moreso for a Fortegunner who can use lvl20 Majarra on Sen/Orcdillans).

My logic is undeniable. Fail argument biased towards Twin Handguns from the start fails.

[BIGGIEstyle]

You're testing DPS, this argument is meaningless, seeing as to get the best DPS it is obvious to use opposing elements on creatures. Either way, this argument totally fails because the opposite element to a Gaozoran (light) inflicts Confusion, which is every bit as good at shutting down their techniques as Silence is, while the bullet hits for considerably more damage.


Please explain to me how a SE that makes an enemy not attack you 20% of the time (confused enemies almost ALWAYS still hit ME) is just as good at shutting down techs as an SE that makes it impossible to use them.

[FOnewearl-Lina]

Please explain to me how a SE that makes an enemy not attack you 20% of the time (confused enemies almost ALWAYS still hit ME) is just as good at shutting down techs as an SE that makes it impossible to use them.

He said Gaozoran, confusion causes enemy techs to hit other enemies instead of players.
Not that it matters seeing as the rifle would down them anyway, unless they were in the middle of an attack.

With everything maxed GM does around 1300(x2) with Guld Milla+10 and 2000 with Killer Elite+10.

[MoorePSO]

WARNING: tl;dr



Yup. I was looking at a "baseline". The fact is, not everyone uses opposite element bullets in every situation. Ground can be very handy to shut-down Gaozorans even though Light will do more damage. In that case it is the same net effect (in terms of damage calculations) as using a neutral bullet or fighting a neutral enemy.
You're testing DPS, this argument is meaningless, seeing as to get the best DPS it is obvious to use opposing elements on creatures.
Not all creatures are Elemental (erego, no opposite element), not every mash of the button is an opposite element attack (sometimes it's even the same element), and not every weapon/bullet is elemental. Therefore, you cannot statistically test and compare DpS based solely upon opposite element attacks. Therefore, a non-elemental test seems to be a reasonable baseline to start from.

Regardless, if you had bothered to read past Hrith's ego, you would have noticed that I conceded the opposing Elemental advantage in post #9.



Either way, this argument totally fails because the opposite element to a Gaozoran (light) inflicts Confusion, which is every bit as good at shutting down their techniques as Silence is, while the bullet hits for considerably more damage.
This argument totally fails because what you quoted (re: Ground/Silence vs. Gaozoran) was not an argument. It was an illustration (i.e.: anecdotal evidence) to show that not every attack is necessarily of the opposite element.




Yup. And rather than take them at face value, and just trust some pompous, self-professed expert at his word, I decided to attempt to verify it for myself through actual testing.
So rather than read what other people have already done, to compare the possible flaws in their tests and hopefully correct them with your own, you just ignore it all and throw numbers together in the hope that people will blindly follow your opinions? Fail.
I've not been able to find any other posts discussing the methodology others used for their tests. I've only seen numbers and equations.

So, yes. Rather than just take their numbers at face value, I attempted my own testing. And even if I had found posts noting methods, test results, and calculations, I would have tried to follow their methodology. It's called "independent verification".


And no, I never "hope[d] that people will blindly follow [my] opinions". Instead, I posted my methodology. I clearly outlined how I calculated RoF as well as aD/S and I clearly described my equations for calculating DpM and DpS. I could have simply kept it all to myself, but instead, I posted it here for "peer review" -- to allow others to give me feedback and either validate my methodology and findings or to correct them.

So far, the only valid objections to my methodology have been that (a) I did not incorporate opposite and same elemental tests and (b) I did not include misses (zeros) and criticals in my average damage per shot testing and calculations.

And no, Hrith's, unsubstantiated, dismissive assertions don't count. They neither prove nor demonstrate anything.



Look, I can throw simple numbers together too, while ignoring other uses.

/snip

So, it seems like even using your own numbers, the edge is still given to Rifles given the right amount of time.
False. Since I gave my numbers in the original post, including the equations, you can do the math yourself.

Rifles - 102 average shots per minute * ~756 damage per per bullet = ~77,112 damage per minute

Twins - 78 average shots per minute * ~501 damage per bullet * 2 ('cause, you know, twins shoot two bullets per shot) = ~78,156 damage per minute

The last time I checked, 77,112 < 78,156.


Your numbers fail, too many factors are not included (elemental percentage, accuracy, knockdown, range, mobility, and the one nobody seems to have noticed, DAMAGE FROM STATUS EFFECTS)
Re: Elemental Percentage
Fair enough. However, again, Elemental bonuses are not the end-all/be-all of DpS since (a) not all creatures are elemental, (b) not every attack will be with an opposite element bullet, and (c) not all bullets are elemental.

Elemental percentages are utterly meaningless when the target is neutral or when using a mixed-element (e.g.: Ground vs. Ice) and the higher elemental percentage of Rifle Bullets work against them against the same element.

Re: Accuracy
Also fair enough. The Acc. of the Rattlesnake is 251 and the Twin Varista is 139. The difference is 112 points. And the bullets? Since I was testing with Rising Hit and Twin Rising, let's see: At level 30 - 50, Rising Shot has an 85% Acc. modifier and Twin Rising has 75%, 85%, and 95% at levels 30, 40, and 50 respectively.

The difference in the miss rate is nominal (Ata. doesn't matter, right? :-P), and at 41+ Twin Bullets are (generally) more accurate than Rifle Bullets.

And countering accuracy, however, are Critical Hits.

Re: Knockdown, Range, & Mobility
These are irrelevant. The topic is comparing DpS not which is better.

Re: DoT SE's
Again, irrelevant. Only two Rifle and Twin bullets deliver damage over time SE's and have no place in determining the general/average DpS of the two weapons.



so again, there is almost no situation where a Twin Handgun will be the best choice...
Epic fail!

The topic is not about which is better. It is only about comparing the damage potential (DpS) of Twin Handguns and Rifles.


My logic is undeniable...ROTFLMAO!

I denied quite a bit of it and disregard another bit 'cause it's off-topic, but at least you r arrogance is backed up with substance ^^

[R2D6battlebot]

I would have to say that both Knockdown AND Range would significantly help a rifle in its' DPS, seeing as with Twins you would have to waste time both chasing after enemies AND dodging/getting hit by their attacks. Saying that a Twin Handgun shoots X shots per minute versus a Rifle shooting X shots per minute isn't really viable, as its MUCH more likely that a Rifle will actually shoot and hit all those shots in a minute versus the Twin, as you waste a lot of that minute chasing.

And I can't get over the fact that with a DPS test you just disregard Accuracy and Elemental percentage, the VAST majority of people use opposite elements in the VAST majority of scenarios, this game is way too easy mode to sit there hoping to proc Silence on an enemy when you could just kill it in 5 shots with opposing elements.

[mll]

Its completely and utterly impossible to calculate the effect of knockdown and range on DPS though, which is why you calculate each weapons potential damage. The ability of the weapon to reach that potential is debatable and immeasurable. He's already conceded the point on elemental advantage and calculating accuracy is an incredibly long laborious task which would give you very different results depending on enemies your fighting, enemy level, character level, character race, character class, class level, weapon etc, etc, etc ...
There's so many variables with accuracy it takes forever to measure.
DPS isn't a very good means of calculating damage in this game anyway. I find a much easier test would be to pick up a rifle, do a run, check how long it took then do the same run with twins. It'll give you a fairly accurate comparison of their damage unless the run is heavily geared in one weapons favour.

[biggabertha]

False. Since I gave my numbers in the original post, including the equations, you can do the math yourself.

Rifles - 102 average shots per minute * ~756 damage per per bullet = ~77,112 damage per minute

Twins - 78 average shots per minute * ~501 damage per bullet * 2 ('cause, you know, twins shoot two bullets per shot) = ~78,156 damage per minute

The last time I checked, 77,112 < 78,156.

Rifles shoot 111 times a minute.

Twin Handguns shoot 80 times a minute (160 shots).

The only reason you have less shots down, is because you calculated the shots taken over 10 seconds then multiplied it by six.

That's not the best way to record how many shots are taken over one minute, is it?

What you should have done is counted how many shots are taken in one minute with each weapon. You have enough enthusiasm to record an average over 10 seconds several times, why didn't you do it over one minute?

That was one of the reasons why Hrith said your figures are way off because you were neglecting nine bullets from a Rifle and four bullets from Twin Handguns.

Redoing your own calculations again:

Rifle, 111 shots a minute, 756 damage a shot so:

756 x 111 = 83,916

Twin Handguns, 80 shots a minute, 501 damage a shot so:

501 x 80 x 2 = 80,160


Just to clarify,

Rifle deals 83,916 damage in one minute with your average damage numbers
Twin Handguns deal 80,160 damage in one minute with your average damage numbers

"The last time I checked, 83,916 > 80,160"


That is why Hrith said your figures are off.

[Tetsaru]

If I may add in my 2 cents...

First of all, the number of shots per minute for each weapon you use CAN and WILL vary. Sure, there's average figures, but how often are you going to be CONSTANTLY shooting that long, at that rate? Unless you've got godlike timing, or some turbo function set up to your keys that can pinpoint the exact nanosecond after the in-between shot cooldown time, your rate of fire isn't going to stay constant ALL THE TIME, and thus, neither will your damage. Also, keep in mind things like lag and slowdown also put a hamper on this.

Personally, I don't know if these figures are correct or not. I'm not a number-cruncher; I try to rely on using the correct weapon for the situation I'm in to maximize my damage, other than the equipment I use and the buffs I get. But if it's only a matter of a few thousand damage per minute or so, is it really that big a deal??

I think what people should be more worried about is how many hits it takes to actually KILL the enemy you're up against. If an enemy has 1,000 HP, and you can kill it in 2 hits, technically you could do 500 damage at the lowest 2 times to kill it. If you were doing 999 damage per hit instead, it'd still take 2 hits to kill it regardless. See my point?

And just for the record, I feel that, when leveled sufficiently, rifles and twin handguns can do roughly the same damage, but I feel that rifles are tactically more effective due to their better range, status effect levels, and knockdown ability. Furthermore, twin handguns tend to be overshadowed by crossbows anyway, since they both can be fired while strafing, but crossbows fire in 3 directions, making them easier to aim with while on the move, and also useful for dealing spike damage up close, like shotguns do... not to mention the higher status effect level, and the ability to use another one-handed weapon along with them simultaneously (saber, dagger, claw, wand, etc. depending on what class you are). Of course, if you go GM later on, you won't have the option of using crossbows over twin handguns, so you'll be stuck with them as your mobility weapon.

Once again, it all boils down to personal preference, and using the right weapon for the situation at hand. People should stop worrying so much about BIG NUMBARZ and use what works best for them. =P

[Genoa]

Once again, it all boils down to personal preference, and using the right weapon for the situation at hand. People should stop worrying so much about BIG NUMBARZ and use what works best for them. =P
Amen <_>

[thunder-ray]

To be honest I happen to like both rifles and twin handguns. I dont really care which of the two do more dmg. They both look nice and do decent dmg so im happy with both of them. ^^

[Dark Emerald EXE]

To be honest I happen to like both rifles and twin handguns. I dont really care which of the two do more dmg. They both look nice and do decent dmg so im happy with both of them. ^^

I second this

[Dark Emerald EXE]

With everything maxed GM does around 1300(x2) with Guld Milla+10 and 2000 with Killer Elite+10.


Unless i over looked something we dont get guld until shread of darkness :-o and the killer elite....im not sure where you can get that......so its gonna be awhile until we see that :P

[FOnewearl-Lina]

Unless i over looked something we dont get guld until shread of darkness :-o and the killer elite....im not sure where you can get that......so its gonna be awhile until we see that :P

Perhaps you overlooked the fact that I'm on JP servers :P

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y274/FoLina/PSU/1024/psu20081025_141231_000.jpg

The one with the highest DPS should be a no brainer really...

[Dark Emerald EXE]

Perhaps you overlooked the fact that I'm on JP servers :P

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y274/FoLina/PSU/1024/psu20081025_141231_000.jpg

The one with the highest DPS should be a no brainer really...
lol i figure that b4 :P but thanks for the visual

i was just stating as far as US being able to use them

[unicorn]

Um. Twins betta in most sitautions.