Gunmaster and Twin Handguns

[Midicronica]

I'm having trouble understanding where twin handguns would fall into place in a Gunmaster's palette. I'm just not seeing a reason why a Gunmaster would ever have to pull out twin handguns over a rifle or anything else in their palette. Perhaps, someone here can help me understand?

[Chris28]

i like the increased mobility you have when using twin handguns. youre not forced to stand still and shoot.

[amtalx]

As stated previously, mobility is nice sometimes. Also, the DPS difference between Twin Handguns and Rifles isn't as cavernous as some would have you believe.

[Pillan]

I don’t understand it either, to be honest. Mobility isn’t that important, rifle damage has been buffed to the point that it’s so close to twin handgun damage that it’s hard to argue it’s worth the range lose, SE drop, and lack of knockdown, and you’ll spend most of your time enjoying shotguns and laser cannons anyway since those do much more damage to much more enemies. It seems more like a style choice than a real necessity. I guess Sonic Team figured “well, we have to give them one GT weapon.”

[amtalx]

I agree on the SE point, but to play devils advocate, SE is rarely if ever necessary particularly if you have a PT in the mix.

The only time I even use my Xbows, the better of a fGs mobility weapons, is when I'm soloing. There are a couple enemies that like to ignore knockdown and run you down (Orcdillians come to mind.)

[Akaimizu]

Technically, it's pretty good mobile damage. It's easy to season and pepper a group with one. It's also kind of the mechgun of that Master Class since they otherwise, don't get a real one.

Especially, on these guys, it's pretty good (quickly spreading) damage on a weapon that takes no hit on speed of fire, when moving. As was said before, the damage difference isn't as cavernous as people like to make out to believe. A lot of damage hoopla is based on only a small bit of HP here and there, which makes little difference in our current late-game climate.

Level 31+ twin handgun bullets still hit like anvils in our current game. With high-speed firing, I wouldn't mind using those at all. Of course, a big thing is style points, and also to pick 4 weapons of various use. Rifles are godly, but they aren't everything everywhere. Especially when you consider the very limited weapon-choice of the GMs.

Still, Gunmaster, Twin Handguns, level 50 bullets....Tynselle is all over that. No need to do some big deep analysis of exactly what is the highest-DPS all the time, when all your selections kick copious amount of butt.

Of course, rifles always do get their use with their godly knockdown and SE, but would it be any kind of fun to just stick with one single weapon ST decided to raise above all else? Not so much. When you have the ability to make em dance with a ratta-tat-tat of high-speed dualing...why not have some fun with it?

It gives them 1 single mobile gun. And since they have no other 1-handed weapons, no need to give them machine guns. Might as well keep them all 2-handed. I guess they also didn't want the effect of having what seems like a single stream line of death, for the 2 seconds it last, if they ever decided to give them mech guns.

[stukasa]

I agree with Akaimizu 100%. I love Twin Handguns, they're one of my favorite weapons. And maybe it's just because I play in small parties more often but I always need to stay mobile, especially when I don't have access to (Gi)Resta. I'm definitely going to keep a pair of Twins in my palette at all times.

[Para]

I agree with Akaimizu 100%. I love Twin Handguns, they're one of my favorite weapons. And maybe it's just because I play in small parties more often but I always need to stay mobile, especially when I don't have access to (Gi)Resta. I'm definitely going to keep a pair of Twins in my palette at all times.

Small parties? more like duoing only.

[SolomonGrundy]

My guess is they got included so guntechers (you need rank 10 guntecher to complete this job), would not be so put out (having to give up thier cool looking twins).

[Golto]

I can't wait to finally use my Battlestoppers. If I am already doing 999 damage to lvl 155 monsters per hit, I bet with lvl 50 bullets and some decently + battlestoppers I can see that jump to 1100 per hit.

Here is one thing to consider though, at lvl 50 rifles will have 40% more atp% than twin handgun bullets. The damage gap widens as twins still only gain 1% atp per lvl 41-50.

[amtalx]

My guess is they got included so guntechers (you need rank 10 guntecher to complete this job), would not be so put out (having to give up thier cool looking twins).

That, and turbo speed Xbows would be serious hax. Shotguns are bad enough...

[mvffin]

I plan on using only the frag PA's for twins. Mostly just mayalee, for a quick debuff on enemies that buff themselves.

[Smidge204]

Here is one thing to consider though, at lvl 50 rifles will have 40% more atp% than twin handgun bullets. The damage gap widens as twins still only gain 1% atp per lvl 41-50.

Remember that Twin Handguns hit TWICE. So if they do half the damage per shot, ultimately they are equal to the rifle in terms of damage. If a rifle hits for 700 damage and a twin handgun hits for, say, 340 - that's actually 700 vs 680, which is comparable. Similar case with SEs - half the rate but twice the opportunity.
=Smidge=

[Genoa]

I think machinegun would have been amazing on Gunmaster, but we can't have a one handed weapon by itself apparently <_<
However, Twin Handguns are a type of weapon that are considerably better based of the players ATP. Weapons that fire multiple shots are most benefited by higher ATP. Also, things like machineguns are definitely only useful if you have high ATP.

Back at PSU's release, you could go through an entire machineguns PP and NOT killed more than 1 or 2 targets.
But now, I mean my 141 f-beast FG20 with a Drumline 10/10 does around 650+ per bullet using elemental weakness at 31+ w/Agitaride.
...
Really wish GM had machinegun D:

[amtalx]

Remember that Twin Handguns hit TWICE. So if they do half the damage per shot, ultimately they are equal to the rifle in terms of damage. If a rifle hits for 700 damage and a twin handgun hits for, say, 340 - that's actually 700 vs 680, which is comparable. Similar case with SEs - half the rate but twice the opportunity.
=Smidge=

Except that Rifles fire faster than Twin Handguns. :/

[Smidge204]

I'm not so sure. about that. It feels like Twins shoot faster when moving as opposed to standing still. I'll have to test it out to...

=Smidge=

[amtalx]

Rifles are 110 shots per minute, and Twin Handguns are 80. To be clear, that's 80 volleys, so 160 individual bullets.

[DreXxiN]

If a monster is almost dead, use twin handguns so you can strafe while proceeding to the next area. (This can be compared to anyone who TA's as a Fortefighter and decided to go near the door and chikki to save time as opposed to majarra).

For everything else there's Master Ca..err.. Rifles

[Golto]

Twins can hit twice but the dfp of target is also deducted from damage of each hit as well. Just once for rifles.

[Akaimizu]

Rifles fire faster only if you're standing still. Thus my comment before was very decisive in mentioning (while in motion). Rifle fire speeds drop considerably if you move during your shots, because well, you have to move before shooting again. Twins keep their speed as you're strafing around, making adjustments, etc. Still, the damage difference is too small to really matter that much. Not on these guys.

[Pillan]

Why are we just comparing twin handguns to rifles? What about the fact that it will take at least 3 volleys of twin handgun shots to kill a mob while it only takes up to two shotgun volleys? I’d say that outweighs the time that could be spent strafing and moving on with twin handguns. And you can’t argue that you’re really in danger being that close since people do it all the time with Fortegunner, Protranser, and Guntecher right now. How can it be a hassle with faster shotgun bullets?

I would only compare a twin handgun to a rifle if you’re fighting a large mob (in which case the stun lock is probably more useful to the team than your strafe dodging) or when fighting a high-flying mob or boss (in which case you would be standing still and rifle range is often favored on the boss). Outside of those two situations, I’d be using a shotgun or laser, depending on the enemy organization.

And that’s what makes it fairly easy to argue that they’re completely unnecessary.

[DreXxiN]

Why are we just comparing twin handguns to rifles? What about the fact that it will take at least 3 volleys of twin handgun shots to kill a mob while it only takes up to two shotgun volleys? I’d say that outweighs the time that could be spent strafing and moving on with twin handguns. And you can’t argue that you’re really in danger being that close since people do it all the time with Fortegunner, Protranser, and Guntecher right now. How can it be a hassle with faster shotgun bullets?

I would only compare a twin handgun to a rifle if you’re fighting a large mob (in which case the stun lock is probably more useful to the team than your strafe dodging) or when fighting a high-flying mob or boss (in which case you would be standing still and rifle range is often favored on the boss). Outside of those two situations, I’d be using a shotgun or laser, depending on the enemy organization.

And that’s what makes it fairly easy to argue that they’re completely unnecessary.

Because the thread is about Twin Handguns.

[Akaimizu]

Thus, it's really perhaps a question on what you want to do. If looking at a strict DPS equation, yes...you can really limit your arsenal. However, the bigger question is...do you really want to play a character that only uses 2 types of weapons at all? The variety is more for fun and variety of combat style. If you want to be a strict DPS tank, that's your choice.

Thing is, monsters die fast enough. They have to be a lot tougher for these decisions to make or break anything in this game. If you think that FFXI style of (only pick strongest DPS weapons/config) is needed in PSU, perhaps you're taking this a little too seriously.

If I was ever in an environment, with any Class in this game, where people would demand that I stick with fewer than 4 different weapons.....I'd probably never consider playing outside of my circle of already-established friends. Too boring.

And to tell you the truth. I actually still have cases where death is apparent if I choose to use shotguns instead, as a Guntecher. That's a class where there is still use in mobility.

As a GM, it's probably going to be mostly Shotgun and Laser Cannon, with rifles used for their awesome level 31+ abilities. Twins would normally come in last, but they are there.

[amtalx]

I think we were comparing them simply because that's what the OP asked about. If you include the entire GM arsenal, Rifles and Twin Handguns shouldn't see all that much use. Even as a fG, I use a Shotgun and a Laser Cannon almost all the time.

[Pillan]

When I asked “why are we just comparing twin handguns to rifles?” I was intending to ask “why aren’t we comparing twin handguns to all of Gunmaster’s options?” Sorry about that confusion. Between the other three, you can easily argue that twin handguns are entirely unnecessary, which has been my point the whole time.

(As a note, the orginal question was why you would use the twin handguns "over rifles or anything else.")

[Alia]

I feel it is to maintain dependency on other Master Classes. If, say, Grenade Launchers were used instead of Twin Handguns, which is probably what most people initially expected, that would make having a FM with Jabroga sort of useless. The Master classes seem specialized to the point that it would be well advised to have all 3 in one party.

[Sexy_Raine]

Twin Handguns were a shitty choice for GM. How did they make it over G.launchers is beyond me. Rifles are so much more useful. Hopefully this gets fixed in the future.

[Pillan]

It’s called balance. Sonic Team obviously left out grenades to give you an excuse to run back to Fortegunner if you really care to use them. Same thing with Fortefighter and its plethora of S ranks and Fortetecher and its ability to be useful to the party. Odds of anything changing in favor of a master class becoming more powerful are low.

[Sexy_Raine]

Yeah, that's why FM gets faster axes and spears right? Master-class system is hardly balanced so don't give me that! ST only caters to melee types. If FM didn't get axes then I'll gladly accept no grenades for GM.

[HiroChicken]

One thing that Gunmasters will be losing out on with S-Rank only Twin Handguns is that they have to give up their superior Twin Ruby Bullets which are easier to grind higher as well.

[Pillan]

Yes. Fighmaster gets those weapons and a slight damage increase over Fortefighter at the cost of weaker stats and lack of any range whatsoever. Gunmaster, on the other hand, gets a significant damage increase over Fortegunner at the cost of weaker stats and the lack of a boss slaying option like grenades or spears. Sounds pretty fair to me. Or, well, at least as fair as the current balances between the classes.

[Genoa]

If I'm going to run back to Grenades, it's going to be combined with traps.
I think a pretty nifty part would be something like...
Masterforce, Gunmaster, Fighmaster, Acrotecher, Protranser, (put whatever here).

[amtalx]

Yeah, that's why FM gets faster axes and spears right? Master-class system is hardly balanced so don't give me that! ST only caters to melee types. If FM didn't get axes then I'll gladly accept no grenades for GM.

GMs got the gunner power weapons (Shotguns and Laser Cannons) and got stuck with Twin Handguns. FM got stuck with Swords, which is almost as lackluster as Twin Handguns. Its fine the way it is. With only four weapons to choose from, I would rather have a mobility weapon. Grenades are easily one of the most situational weapons in a gunner's arsenal. Is killing dragons quickly really that important to you?

[DarkEliteRico]

GMs got the gunner power weapons (Shotguns and Laser Cannons) and got stuck with Twin Handguns. FM got stuck with Swords, which is almost as lackluster as Twin Handguns. Its fine the way it is. With only four weapons to choose from, I would rather have a mobility weapon. Grenades are easily one of the most situational weapons in a gunner's arsenal. Is killing dragons quickly really that important to you?
I've given up on grenades personally months ago, dragons drop quck enough with some nice shotguns. I personally feel that GM's got the best gear they could have: hard hitting rifles, high dps penetrating laser cannons, highly mobile twin pistols and multi targeting shotguns

[DreXxiN]

If I'm going to run back to Grenades, it's going to be combined with traps.
I think a pretty nifty part would be something like...
Fighmaster, Fighmaster, Fighmaster, Fighmaster, Fighmaster, Protranser.

Fix'd for the lols :)

[Billy Mitchell]

My god, the game is easy. Use what is fun. When it seems fun to use them, use them.

[Dark Emerald EXE]

I could be wrong but i coulda sworn a thread about rifles and twins have already been talked bout XD

[darkante]

I feel that Grenade Launcher should get more usefulness, everything can outdamage it easiely. Only good for the dragons?
W t f, if anything the rounds should explode upon touch and not by ground. <.<

[Sexy_Raine]

GMs got the gunner power weapons (Shotguns and Laser Cannons) and got stuck with Twin Handguns. FM got stuck with Swords, which is almost as lackluster as Twin Handguns. Its fine the way it is. With only four weapons to choose from, I would rather have a mobility weapon. Grenades are easily one of the most situational weapons in a gunner's arsenal. Is killing dragons quickly really that important to you?

Are swords really that inferior, considering how people go out of their way for the Agito? I'm not that experienced with melee, so I can't judge what the best melee weps are nor the best PAs.

True how Grenades aren't used that much, still sucks any leveled PAs get left behind though. Grenades are still a lot different from the rifle though unlike Twins. At least bows didn't make it thankfully.

[SolomonGrundy]

maybe they will dial back rifle element, which would favor twin handguns again.

I am too old school: I remember when rifle was more for status effect, than for damage. Except electric rifle, which annoyingly did not work on large mobs...

[Genoa]

Fix'd for the lols :)

No sir, that party would be called:
boring <_<
It also wouldn't work at all because everyone else would probably tornado dance to the next area, the PT would never get a chance to even trap enemies for the sake of fighters.

[SolomonGrundy]

Also, grenades are useful for something other than stun lock. SE3, and stunlock/stagger/blow away of annoying enemies.

I have earth grenades, and I'd MUCH rather blow away and oglemon swarm with that over running up with a shotty.

that being said I'm going to go try a B rank mission to see how viable shotgunning a boss really is...

[Hrith]

You could Youtube that (Japanese Gunmaster videos).

Killing dragons with shotguns is still very fast, on par with Anga Jabroga, I wonder about Dimmagolus/Onmagoug, though. It may be better to keep firing at the wings with the rifle, even while they are groundbound.

[Atomic646]

I agree with Akaimizu 100%. I love Twin Handguns, they're one of my favorite weapons. And maybe it's just because I play in small parties more often but I always need to stay mobile, especially when I don't have access to (Gi)Resta. I'm definitely going to keep a pair of Twins in my palette at all times.

Same here going to have 2 battlestoppers ^^