Acrotechers- Whips, debuffs, support

[Seority]

Guess everyone forgot that Debuffs are auto-tags.

:-?

And please DO NOT PLAY MAIN SUPPORT CLASSES and expect them to be able to solo well or do anything great WITHOUT A PARTY TO SUPPORT.

[SolomonGrundy]

Pillian wronte: Level 150 Caseal, AT 20, 42-50% whips, Lumirus/Kaos Knight. Average damage to mobs in the current GBR S2 missions is 2400-2500 per hit, depending on the whip.

And, as I said, it’s not win-win, it’s lose-lose. Burning things sucks because burn does less damage than opposite element now. If you increase enemy DFP so that burning things becomes more viable, you’re slowing the ranger down significantly and taking away their real advantage. You’re just hurting ranger to the point that they start burning things because they have no other choice.

Debuffs themselves are fine and Zalure is the only one that has a problem. However, you could easily fix Zalure by giving it the same effect as Deband, which decreases enemy ATP rather than increasing your DFP. Zalure should increase your ATP and there would be no problem. And how can you not see use for Zodeel while fighting level 165 Deljaban with the boot buff?

ohhh, now I see! Because you chose an AT that is focused on melee damage, and have the highest ATP unit currently in the game, and high % whips, you think that this is 'the standard' for the type of damage that AT do.

no.

a lot of players have average %s, are human (or newman), and don't have the higher end Knight unit. They are also not level 150. I see plenty of 130s

I agree that Mobs should die quickly. If you played PSO, the booma-class enemies typically did not last beyond a Hard-Hard-Hard combo from your typical HUmar/HUcast. This is the same situation for enemies like badira/ageeta, and to a lesser extent distova/olaka/and those humped back enemies in moatoob

But there SHOULD be slow enemies that require cooperation. And not cheesy enemies, like that idiotic body slam, self buffing, barta using dark idiot in mother brain. I mean enemies like jarba (hard to melee, high hp, resistant to tech, and dangerous with the megid). Enemies like these screamed "GUNNER," and "TRAPS"

Bees screamed "DEBUFF" and "TECHER"

Kogg Nads were a nightmare for non fighter types (well, to be honest, they weren't much fun to fighter types either).


and you want to make the argument that debuffs are so usefull? Then why do so few people use them? And with regard to rangers getting "nerfed" by increasing DFP? The point to rangers was the consistent application of SEs. Inreasing DFP to the point where SE damage matters again is the way the game was originally designed! It also makes the guntecher job more appealing (with zalure available).

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

Guess everyone forgot that Debuffs are auto-tags.
Except for when they decide not to stick, which is alarmingly often (and dependent on enemy STA, just like any other SE).

Oh, and they're useless.

Just tag with whips, daggers, and twin handguns.

[Pillan]

On whip damage:

I do 1700 neutral, which drops to around 1500 neutral without the unit. It seriously makes me doubt that a Newman would be doing under 1000 with the second part of Vivi Danga. But, that being said, if someone was to increase enemy DFP, they would drop to 400s or so with Just Attack on a neutral (which is still about the same as where the ranger would be with opposite element shotguns at that point).


On debuffs being useful:

The reason I say Zodeel and Jellen are useful is because they make a significant difference. Jellen can cut the damage you receive from enemies in half (with high element gear) and Zodeel does wonders on the constant misses that everyone who’s not using Jabroga receives against buffed Deljaban. The reason no one uses them is because, you know, you can play the numbers game. If I’m killing faster than the enemies are hitting and Giresta is taking care of the occasional hit that does get in, why should I bother significantly reducing their damage? If there are six of us and we’re only missing 20% of the time, the enemy is still dead by the time I finish my first combo, so why Zodeel?

This is essentially the same reason why people like the master classes, even though their trading everything for a reasonable probability of killing faster. No one cares about archaic ideas like “survivability” and “versatility” and “accuracy.”

And, honestly, I’ve never seen debuffs miss until you start dealing with shield enemies. I don’t think they can miss anything with less than 31 STA. (The bullet debuffs seem to miss more often.) However, a single debuff can only land on six targets, so it will completely ignore targets (and not count as tagging) if you’ve already debuffed six. To make matters worse, it tries to target the six closest, so if those aren’t the six you tagged, no debuff EXP for you. And, remember, the six targets is the max per party, not per person.


On “what x was meant to be”:

Tell me, did you email Yuji Naka and ask him what he envisioned the ranger class to be? How about the new staff since he quit to make his own company?

But, no, you can’t really expect to hold a strong argument by saying “because rangers used to suck at damage and had to depend on traps, they should be forced back into that role.” If anything, it’s easier to argue from the constant attack power buffs and bullet buffs that they were never meant to fill that role and ended up doing it anyway.

I also find it funny how you remember rangers being so weak and dependent on SE in general. If I recall correctly, I remember rangers being that class which sucked until getting photon arts to 21 and then elemental damage dominated every advantage that SE had outside of the case of certain high HP large mobs, which would quickly be trapped because nothing could land the SE fast enough to merit its use. And I also recall rifles being the only weapon that could reasonably land an SE on a large mob (with only burn, freeze, and infection working at all), and crossbows being the only reasonable one for medium mobs (with a level 21 requirement on both, of course). Combined with the 5 G trap limit, it’s kind of obvious to me that status effects were never the largest part of ranger.

I’ve always thought of rangers as the class focused on ranged damage. You know, one that could opt to do less damage from afar in order to kill an enemy without fear of being killed themselves. I know it’s a novel idea, but it just kind of made sense to me. (Sorry, I couldn’t resist.)


That really brings us back to the original topic of this post, doesn’t it? Just because the class isn’t what you wanted it to be doesn’t mean you should change it for everyone else. I don’t know about you, but I kind of enjoy doing damage and not having to fill up the six slots on my item pallet with traps.

However, once again, it would be a good idea to ask for a reduced power class that can equip a lot of guns and specializes in traps. That sounds strangely familiar for some reason…

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

And, honestly, I’ve never seen debuffs miss until you start dealing with shield enemies. I don’t think they can miss anything with less than 31 STA.
I wouldn't really know; I never bothered to take them past level 11.

[panzer_unit]

On whip damage:

I do 1700 neutral, which drops to around 1500 neutral without the unit. It seriously makes me doubt that a Newman would be doing under 1000 with the second part of Vivi Danga. But, that being said, if someone was to increase enemy DFP, they would drop to 400s or so with Just Attack on a neutral (which is still about the same as where the ranger would be with opposite element shotguns at that point)

... keep in mind that DFP is totally static. Whatever amount of DFP works to put GunMaster shotguns on a short leash is going to murder Protransers by turning that few-hundred less damage they do into the majority of their damage gone ... meanwhile it probably won't make a difference to laser cannons, and it's going to be absolutely meaningless for high-ATP melee skills. And then the level cap goes up by 30 or we get some better weapons one day and the extra ATP brings all the old problems back.

I wouldn't mind seeing SOME enemies with completely disproportionate DFP levels where you need debuffs or a fighter spamming Gravity Break to deal damage at all, but it's not a game mechanic that can possibly improve overall balance of the game. That can only come from fixing each class' damage output relative to eachother or maybe on the basis of "<this class> can kill <this size of monster> with <this many attacks> from the most suitable PA combo / ranged weapon / attack tech"


However, once again, it would be a good idea to ask for a reduced power class that can equip a lot of guns and specializes in traps. That sounds strangely familiar for some reason…

They'd have to make traps with a reasonable stack limit and a significant status effect of some sort, fight-winners or close to it, if there's going to be some kind of trap-specialist. The G's we're stuck with today really don't make a dent in a mission unless every gunner in the party is carrying and using appropriate types.

[SolomonGrundy]

The reason I say Zodeel and Jellen are useful is because they make a significant difference. Jellen can cut the damage you receive from enemies in half (with high element gear) and Zodeel does wonders on the constant misses that everyone who’s not using Jabroga receives against buffed Deljaban. The reason no one uses them is because, you know, you can play the numbers game. If I’m killing faster than the enemies are hitting and Giresta is taking care of the occasional hit that does get in, why should I bother significantly reducing their damage? If there are six of us and we’re only missing 20% of the time, the enemy is still dead by the time I finish my first combo, so why Zodeel?

This is exactly the reason one should increase DFP -becasue then debuffing it would truly make the missoin go faster. Your Cast Acrotecher would still do his damage, he'd just have to drop a zalure to do it.

Melee types would be impacted as well, but not to the same level, since melee weapons have the high ATP. It might make wartechers more useful, and I think no one is unhappy about that.

I think jellen does work pretty well now. Again, the only improvent here might be to have it affect all techs from enemies except the "true" spellcasters

I recall rangers using virus crossbow, and fire cross bow, fire rfile, and virus rifle at level 60, 70, 80, 90 -I can't quite recall if post AOI it was still in heavy rotation. I think once level 40 bullets were released DoT stopped being as large a factor.

On the Protranser comment: PTs have access to elemental bullets, and with the SE nerf, you can land SE2 on large enemies. They also have access to heavy weaponry and while thier ATP isn't great, if # of traps were increased (and Fire trap DoT was fixed so that things could burn while the fire was stll going off) they would come into thier own, I suspect. Stun traps currently make impossible rooms a cake walk.

Gunmasters would suffer a bit. I admit it - but only solo. Though... it WOULD give them a reason to use twin handguns (zalure bullets) Fortegunners can use spears, sabers, and daggers if they encounter enemies that they don't want to DoT. Last I checked majarra works pretty well for them.

[DreXxiN]

Debuffs are useless for tagging? LOLOLFDJSKFDHSJKFLHDSJKFHDSJKLFHDSJKLFHD

*Dies*


They don't work "ALARMINGLY" often but I haven't leveled them past 11..

Oh man..I'm sorry dude, you can flame me back for that one but that was just humor XD.

Oh and for everyone who thinks debuffs are useless..Magashi loves the Jellen, try your fresh new 41's on him! Trust me, it helps ;P

[Seority]

I remember when that one female techer had too magic defense so my buffs never stuck to her either. x3

[DreXxiN]

I remember when that one female techer had too magic defense so my buffs never stuck to her either. x3

You mean STA. Yeah talk about taking off those stamina units to receive buffs.

But yeah, in the history of PS, nothing of monsters had anything to do with debuffing. Nothing prevented it with the exception of in PSO where if their shifta were higher you couldn't debuff them.

EDIT: Forgot about King and Sheilded enemies in PSU, that's about it really.

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

Debuffs are useless for tagging? LOLOLFDJSKFDHSJKFLHDSJKFHDSJKLFHDSJKLFHD

*Dies*
Considering smacking everything with a whip is more beneficial to the party in the long run and causes the enemies to die faster, yes debuffs are useless for tagging.

Oh, and debuffs missing any more than 0% of the time is alarmingly high; they're bad enough as is, no reason to make it a crapshoot whether or not they even stick.

But sure, you go ahead and keep debuffing everything. I'm sure your party will thank you for the extra ten damage per hit they can do.

[Seority]

My party prefers it when it's main supporter is busy whiping up Vanda's while they are getting mammed by them and being stunned while I bliskfully help my party by running away and becoming a pro ForteWhipper.

:wacko:

(Debuffs JUST LIKE BUFFS will hit the target. PERIOD. Casting a buff will always be faster and the best way to TAG and HELP a party as a MAIN SUPPORT CLASS.)

-face palms-

[DreXxiN]

Considering smacking everything with a whip is more beneficial to the party in the long run and causes the enemies to die faster, yes debuffs are useless for tagging.

Oh, and debuffs missing any more than 0% of the time is alarmingly high; they're bad enough as is, no reason to make it a crapshoot whether or not they even stick.

But sure, you go ahead and keep debuffing everything. I'm sure your party will thank you for the extra ten damage per hit they can do.

Er..

If your debuffs suck...

I'm sorry but the difference between my broga with Seo's Shifta/Zalure is a pretty fat 600-700 difference...

I'll try to get screenies. The whip argument isn't necessarily true considering the PA's have a long cooldown and senselessly long animation that makes AT's fall behind, even worse if they are on PS2. (Fall behind on supporting your team with heals/buffs? Might as well just have another DPS class in the team if this is the case)

Though I wouldn't bother with them until SE3 or so.

Even if it only does 50 more a strike with Majarra, it casts in less than 1 second, so +100 damage to everyone's majarra Will add to about an additonally 2000 every second. I won't argue if you disagree, but it's true if you at least go test it.

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

Even if it only does 50 more a strike with Majarra, it casts in less than 1 second, so +100 damage to everyone's majarra Will add to about an additonally 2000 every second. I won't argue if you disagree, but it's true if you at least go test it.And my Vivi Danga does over 2000 damage to each enemy each second. Thanks for playing.

[DreXxiN]

And my Vivi Danga does over 2000 damage to each enemy each second. Thanks for playing.

Did you just completely ignore the rest of my post? lol.

Sure the fighters love the knockback too =/

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

What knockback? Oh, you mean in parties where everything isn't dead by the time the combo finishes.

[DreXxiN]

What knockback? Oh, you mean in parties where everything isn't dead by the time the combo finishes.

..*Sigh*.. Why are you AT if you are just going to contribute with a whip? Are you one of those that only buff at the beginning of blocks because it's convenient for YOU? And if you are EVER arguing numbers you do to monsters with YOUR weapons...you'll do more damage as any other fighter/gunner class really.. I mean seriously you will..so switch classes.

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

lol

I can't say anything about your ability, since I've never played with you, but I can say that I play better support than 95% of the ATs in this game. If you can't be obsessive about support and aggressive about attacking at the same time, then you're not playing the type right. It isn't that hard to do.


Anyway, I tire of this pointless argument. There's nothing wrong with using debuffs, just don't act like they're so helpful, because they really aren't.

[Seority]

Sorry but I put healing the party over whipping to tag anyday.
(I'd think people want that more out of an AT ;) )

Debuffs can be VERY useful, but they are BEST to TAG with as a SUPPORT TECHER.

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

Sorry but I put healing the party over whipping to tag anyday.
Hey me too.


But unless your party utterly blows, you should have more than enough time to do both.

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

More beneficial than debuffing, not more beneficial than healing.

[Seority]

That's situational.

[Magus_84]

I'm sorry but the difference between my broga with Seo's Shifta/Zalure is a pretty fat 600-700 difference...

Probably right, but the difference between your Jabroga with just Shifta and your Jabroga with Shifta/Zalure will probably be around 30 points. The Shifta's adding far more than the Zalure.

Based on testing with a friend (both guns and melee, JA'ed and not on the melee, opposite element), even 31+ Zalure only increases damage by 20-40 points. That's on both a Human Male AT 140/20 and a Beast Female FF 140/20.

With my understanding of the way DFP works, ATP increases have far more of an effect on your damage than enemy DFP decreases. Instead of increasing your damage by a percentage, it seems to tend more to a static decrease regardless of the enemy. That's mainly because DFP scales so horribly point for point, so even knocking off a hundred DFP or more ends up only adding about 20 damage. At 800 DFP (which I'm not sure any enemies can get yet in US PSU), a level 41+ Zalure would increase your damage by about 40 points. The damage increase drops drastically as enemy DFP drops.

With that said, I still use debuffs. But mainly Zoldeel, as it really helps AT's survivability. Of course, then the melee get antsy. >_> I reserve Jellen for things that Shifta themselves, and I don't even have my (32) Zalure on my PA list. It's not worth the pallette space, time and PP it consumes.

Deband's the same way, unless it pushes you past the threshold of getting knocked around, or drops damage taken to 0. But if you're wanting to reduce damage taken, Jellen has a far more dramatic impact. At the cost of less convenience.

Funnily enough, I usually cast Zoldeel and then attack with JC'ed Vivi Danga or Hikai on mobs of small stuff. Unless you're on a slow PC or a PS2, it's entirely possible to keep your team healed while attacking, without ever having to debuff tag.

I agree with whipping something generally being a better use of PP, pallette space and time than casting Zalure. Not so much with Zoldeel. And in the situations when it's good, Jellen's even better. In the situations when it's not, it's nearly worthless.

Zalure would be so much more useful if it could break enemy damage resistance (1/2 damage) to melee or bullets. But that'd be borderline overpowered.

[SolomonGrundy]

lol

Anyway, I tire of this pointless argument. There's nothing wrong with using debuffs, just don't act like they're so helpful, because they really aren't.

This has got to be one of the sillier things I have read today:
How can there be nothing wrong with them if they really are not helpful? We are talking about a types whose main claim to fame is support techs.

[Gen2000]

Don't see why there is such a big deal between using whips (or any other proper weapon for the situation) and supporting, it's not that hard to do both even on PS2 unless you're bad at AT.

Having all Debuffs lv.31-40, Jellen and Zoldeel are the only ones that that seems to make a noticeable difference but not so much that I feel every single mob needs to be debuffed. Zalure may be worthwhile at lv.41+ but I dunno since most players have upgraded in power that even the almighty Parum Aoti S2 mobs dies in like 1-2 combo now.

For tagging yeah, lv.31 debuffs wins for that alone because the effect range is huuuuge but if you're still having problems just tagging enemies for exp you got more issues to deal with. You actually gain more exp, level faster from using Danga/Hikai and getting that killshot anyways.

[SolomonGrundy]

I'm sorry but the difference between my broga with Seo's Shifta/Zalure is a pretty fat 600-700 difference...

Probably right, but the difference between your Jabroga with just Shifta and your Jabroga with Shifta/Zalure will probably be around 30 points. The Shifta's adding far more than the Zalure.

Based on testing with a friend (both guns and melee, JA'ed and not on the melee, opposite element), even 31+ Zalure only increases damage by 20-40 points. That's on both a Human Male AT 140/20 and a Beast Female FF 140/20.

With my understanding of the way DFP works, ATP increases have far more of an effect on your damage than enemy DFP decreases. Instead of increasing your damage by a percentage, it seems to tend more to a static decrease regardless of the enemy. That's mainly because DFP scales so horribly point for point, so even knocking off a hundred DFP or more ends up only adding about 20 damage. At 800 DFP (which I'm not sure any enemies can get yet in US PSU), a level 41+ Zalure would increase your damage by about 40 points. The damage increase drops drastically as enemy DFP drops.

With that said, I still use debuffs. But mainly Zoldeel, as it really helps AT's survivability. Of course, then the melee get antsy. >_> I reserve Jellen for things that Shifta themselves, and I don't even have my (32) Zalure on my PA list. It's not worth the pallette space, time and PP it consumes.

Deband's the same way, unless it pushes you past the threshold of getting knocked around, or drops damage taken to 0. But if you're wanting to reduce damage taken, Jellen has a far more dramatic impact. At the cost of less convenience.

Funnily enough, I usually cast Zoldeel and then attack with JC'ed Vivi Danga or Hikai on mobs of small stuff. Unless you're on a slow PC or a PS2, it's entirely possible to keep your team healed while attacking, without ever having to debuff tag.

I agree with whipping something generally being a better use of PP, pallette space and time than casting Zalure. Not so much with Zoldeel. And in the situations when it's good, Jellen's even better. In the situations when it's not, it's nearly worthless.

Zalure would be so much more useful if it could break enemy damage resistance (1/2 damage) to melee or bullets. But that'd be borderline overpowered.

I agree with this: zodeel helps when I am soloing, but it draws unpleasant looks when used in a group game. using jellen in a group game means a wee bit less resta.

Someone suggested level 5 debuffs affecting bosses. That would be worthy
:-)

[Hiero_Glyph]

*yawn* I leave this forum for a while and when I return the topics are always the same regarding AT's. Good to see that the whiptechers are still talking about their B1G NuMB3Rz. At 140/20 players tend to miss more often while at 150/20 this is less of an issue. Debuffs are a waste of time given the current hit formula. The one exception in this case is the replacement of Zodial with Zoldeel in order to avoid increasing the player's EVP. Also note that the added damage from debuffs only matters if the PA can kill in one less Just Attack. Otherwise who cares about an added 1-200 damage as the damage is meaningless if the mob will die at the end of the PA regardless of damage.

The time required for an AT to cast a debuff is not a huge issue. Instead it is that the time spent casting the debuff negates the AT from dealing additional damage or keeping your party healed and free of status effects. So what does more, adding 1-200 damage per hit to the enemy or dealing an additional 2,000 damage on your own? Last time I checked Hikai deals well over 2,000 damage for just the first part.

As for whips they are situational weapons, end of story. Anyone claiming otherwise is just as bad as an AT that uses technics exclusively. Whips have the potential to deal more damage than any other weapon that the AT can wield. Likewise they can also slow down a party if used improperly and take longer to execute than a dagger with Hikai.

[Pillan]

Eh, I’d say it’s fairly easy to argue there aren’t many situations where an Acrotecher shouldn’t be using a whip at this point. I can’t think of any situations where there aren’t four or more enemies in whip range or 2 or 3 enemies that can all be hit with a weapon other than a whip. There are a few situations with a couple large mobs where I’d rather use a dagger or ranged weapon, depending on immunities, but even those are few and far between. But it obviously depends on the mission you’re running.

And I have to agree entirely with Ffuzzy-Logik. If you can’t heal, buff, and deal damage as Acrotecher, you really should change classes. There’s even less of an excuse now that buffs last 6 minutes and Giresta adds auto-recovery 4.

[thunder-ray]

Ive never used debuffs before however ive seen some decent AT's use them and they seem very usefull to me. They cut the crap out of the mobs stats while their getting exp and supporting the party at the same time. If i ever try AT ill defently lvl debuffs I just wish we had a debuff that lowers enemys TP >_<.

[Hiero_Glyph]

Ive never used debuffs before however ive seen some decent AT's use them and they seem very usefull to me. They cut the crap out of the mobs stats while their getting exp and supporting the party at the same time. If i ever try AT ill defently lvl debuffs I just wish we had a debuff that lowers enemys TP >_<.

Given the enemy stats at higher levels (reference this chart (http://psupedia.info/Enemies)) and the fact that debuffs reduce the enemies' total stats by a fixed percentage, the most effective debuffs would be the ones that reduce the largest total values. In the case of these high level enemies the order goes ATP, TP (no available debuff), EVP, DFP is tied with MST (no available debuff), and ATA. As a result Jellen (ATP down) would be the most effective debuff followed by Zoldeel (ATA/EVP down) and finally Zalure (DFP down).

As I noted previously, Zoldeel actually reduces two statistics and has the added effect of allowing players to hit enemies more easily without having to rely upon an increase in both their ATA and EVP, which most fighters try to avoid, from Zoldial. I was hoping to find a % that shows how effective a level 41+ debuff is at reducing the enemies' stat value but I cannot find one that is confirmed (the one on psupedia is not accurate to my knowledge).

If the debuff reduces the value of the enemy by a larger value than the buff increases the player's values then there might be cause to use debuffs. As players have larger values in general for their own statistics and level 41+ buffs last for 5 minutes (41+ Giresta only lasts for 4 minutes) or until a player dies, the need to recast is much lower allowing the AT to focus on combat and healing. In some cases a debuff may be useful but as most enemies die in under 30 seconds the need to recast is much greater (~10 times more casting is required) and the overall benefit is reduced. Also note that each debuff assigned takes the place of another technic or weapon slot.

Overall debuffs are not as effective as buffs. There are cases where debuffs can be augmented in place of buffs (Zoldeel instead of Zoldial for example) but these situations are rare. It is possible that against certain enemies a debuff could become useful (the Gainozeros on Lightning Beasts come to mind) but as the debuff that would directly increase your damage has the smallest effect I still do not see a need for it. The bottom line is that unless most enemies can survive for longer than 30 seconds the need for debuffs is not required.

[Seority]

...
Wait, when did I start this thread? ;>>
(I thought I was repling to another thread for the first post.)

Someone ninja'd this in here! D:

I guess I can just state that everything in this game can be useful. It's all about the situation. Enimes, buffed, defenses, numbers, knock-back. Many things play into it all.
Best case scenario is that the AT keeps everyone up with all the buffs, debuffs when needed, and doesn't attack unless everyone is at 100% hp.

Is it more important that you whip around 1k to enimies, or debuff them so everyone does 500 more damage to them? As I said, situational =) Also with debuffs, you arn't stuck in a PA movement so you can be ready for heals faster. Yes, some monsters don't get debuffed the first time you cast it. Heaven forbid you may have to cast it twice! Lol.

[tirith]

actually on my AT i don't use whips except to break traps, relyin on spells for tagging as they don't have long cast animation like the whip pa has.

[DreXxiN]

*pats head* Good AT. :)

*Passes 1 mil*

[SolomonGrundy]

Given the enemy stats at higher levels (reference this chart (http://psupedia.info/Enemies)) and the fact that debuffs reduce the enemies' total stats by a fixed percentage, the most effective debuffs would be the ones that reduce the largest total values. In the case of these high level enemies the order goes ATP, TP (no available debuff), EVP, DFP is tied with MST (no available debuff), and ATA. As a result Jellen (ATP down) would be the most effective debuff followed by Zoldeel (ATA/EVP down) and finally Zalure (DFP down).

As I noted previously, Zoldeel actually reduces two statistics and has the added effect of allowing players to hit enemies more easily without having to rely upon an increase in both their ATA and EVP, which most fighters try to avoid, from Zoldial. I was hoping to find a % that shows how effective a level 41+ debuff is at reducing the enemies' stat value but I cannot find one that is confirmed (the one on psupedia is not accurate to my knowledge).

If the debuff reduces the value of the enemy by a larger value than the buff increases the player's values then there might be cause to use debuffs. As players have larger values in general for their own statistics and level 41+ buffs last for 5 minutes (41+ Giresta only lasts for 4 minutes) or until a player dies, the need to recast is much lower allowing the AT to focus on combat and healing. In some cases a debuff may be useful but as most enemies die in under 30 seconds the need to recast is much greater (~10 times more casting is required) and the overall benefit is reduced. Also note that each debuff assigned takes the place of another technic or weapon slot.

Overall debuffs are not as effective as buffs. There are cases where debuffs can be augmented in place of buffs (Zoldeel instead of Zoldial for example) but these situations are rare. It is possible that against certain enemies a debuff could become useful (the Gainozeros on Lightning Beasts come to mind) but as the debuff that would directly increase your damage has the smallest effect I still do not see a need for it. The bottom line is that unless most enemies can survive for longer than 30 seconds the need for debuffs is not required.

which is why I said DFP needs to be cranked.
it would make DoT more useful
it would make zalure more useful (and thus make acrotecher, guntecher, and wartecher more useful)

[Night SSc7]

maybe just raise the debuff's se levels and reduction %'s
over looking the simplest solution here, that or just don't use them

[Magician]

As a guide to people who're new to PSU, using debuffs while the newcomer does all the killing in c-rank missions is a good reason to have debuffs at a high level. Otherwise I agree with those who say debuffs have little to no place in PSU's endgame. As an acrotecher, I find it easier to tag with a whip.

[Deja]

I use debuffs and I'll tell you why:

First of all, I know they are pointless and do little to enhance the situation. Or should I say dehance the situation...wait that isn't a word. Cupcake is a word and I would like one at this moment. Anyways, I hold on to the slim hope that debuffs will be useful one day...that maybe s3 and s4 will hold a good challenge that jellen and zoldeel will keep the monsters at bay...at Michael Bay.

Secondly, debuffs tag every monster (most of the time). A whip does that also, but that flings the monsters all over the place and makes it difficult for the other members of the party to finish all of the monsters off. The whip is good for giant monsters that only fall down when hit, and helps for multiple hits on said monster. I'm an AT for support, not for Indiana Jones type shinanagins.

Lastly, I believe that the 2nd amendment should be enjoyed by all, and that every parent should own a Battlestopper or two to keep their family safe.

[DreXxiN]

I use debuffs and I'll tell you why:

First of all, I know they are pointless and do little to enhance the situation. Or should I say dehance the situation...wait that isn't a word. Cupcake is a word and I would like one at this moment. Anyways, I hold on to the slim hope that debuffs will be useful one day...that maybe s3 and s4 will hold a good challenge that jellen and zoldeel will keep the monsters at bay...at Michael Bay.

Secondly, debuffs tag every monster (most of the time). A whip does that also, but that flings the monsters all over the place and makes it difficult for the other members of the party to finish all of the monsters off. The whip is good for giant monsters that only fall down when hit, and helps for multiple hits on said monster. I'm an AT for support, not for Indiana Jones type shinanagins.

Lastly, I believe that the 2nd amendment should be enjoyed by all, and that every parent should own a Battlestopper or two to keep their family safe.

Deja won this thread COMPLETELY.

No need to debate anymore, lock please =]

[Magician]

I use debuffs and I'll tell you why:

First of all, I know they are pointless and do little to enhance the situation. Or should I say dehance the situation...wait that isn't a word. Cupcake is a word and I would like one at this moment. Anyways, I hold on to the slim hope that debuffs will be useful one day...that maybe s3 and s4 will hold a good challenge that jellen and zoldeel will keep the monsters at bay...at Michael Bay.

Secondly, debuffs tag every monster (most of the time). A whip does that also, but that flings the monsters all over the place and makes it difficult for the other members of the party to finish all of the monsters off. The whip is good for giant monsters that only fall down when hit, and helps for multiple hits on said monster. I'm an AT for support, not for Indiana Jones type shinanagins.

Lastly, I believe that the 2nd amendment should be enjoyed by all, and that every parent should own a Battlestopper or two to keep their family safe.

Now how do I argue against this? Well...I can't.

Epic post, sir.

[PS]Do you have those custom beats you use for your youtube adventures available for download at ocremix.org or somewhere else perhaps? I really dig the eastern peril remix you use at the beginning of episode two.

[Deja]

Magician, I plan on coming out with one more massive episode, then putting out my songs for download. I got a simple CD planned, so I'll have more details soon. Christmas season is out of control right now for me to do anything lol.

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

Is it more important that you whip around 1k to enimies, or debuff them so everyone does 500 more damage to them?
You're kidding, right? I don't think there's a single enemy in PSU currently where you would do 50 extra damage due to a debuff, let alone 500.

And only 1000 for a whip? Maybe for the first combo of Vivi Danga on a low percent whip and a Human or Newman AT. But even then, it still hits them four times. With good equipment, you can easily do over 2000 per hit with the second part of Vivi. Then there's Hikai, where you can do well over 1000 per hit. And don't forget Spinning Strike; I can hit over 4000 per hit on the second part.

[Magus_84]

You're kidding, right? I don't think there's a single enemy in PSU currently where you would do 50 extra damage due to a debuff, let alone 500.

And only 1000 for a whip? Maybe for the first combo of Vivi Danga on a low percent whip and a Human or Newman AT. But even then, it still hits them four times. With good equipment, you can easily do over 2000 per hit with the second part of Vivi. Then there's Hikai, where you can do well over 1000 per hit. And don't forget Spinning Strike; I can hit over 4000 per hit on the second part.

This, unless you're counting the rare lack of a miss from Zoldeel. Which on stuff like Deljabans, almost makes an appreciable difference.

Zalure sucks, though. Hard. So does Deband, for that matter. Unless it's the difference between taking damage and not taking damage. Which will only be a rare thing that happens when you're doing missions you're too high-leveled for.

Anyway. I don't quite understand why people always associate whips with "knock around". The first part of Vivi Danga works quite well, without knockback. And between Zodial/Zoldeel and AT's high EVP, you can Just Counter it quite often. Since it's pretty fast, being locked into the "long animation" so often presented as a reason to not use whips doesn't happen.

As a human male with a SPS and some middling-percent whips (20-30), I do around 800-900 per hit. 4 hits, on 5 enemies, with greater range than a dagger. Hit that a few times, then use the last step of the combo as a finishing move. Works great for me.

And yet I'm still able to heal and buff. It's not really that hard (as in requiring "skill"), but it can be nearly impossible if your hardware doesn't cooperate.

[Pillan]

Let’s say your whips only do 1000 per hit on the first hit. And let’s say debuffs add 50 damage per hit. That still means the party needs to take 20 hits or greater to kill each creature for Zalure to make up for the damage you could have done with a whip. And it only takes me 10 hits max to kill a mob as an Acrotecher, so it’s hard to imagine it would take longer with more ATP.

But, sure, Zodeel is nice for buffed Deljaban, Zalure is decent for enemies that use Megistar, and Jellen works for general use. The general issue remains that they’re by no means necessary and it’s tough to argue that the single hit of a whip combo that could be used in that time doesn’t add more to the party’s overall performance.

And if the enemy is living long enough for you to finish a whip combo in a team of 4 or more, you’re doing something wrong. That combo takes too long and the party does too much damage for the knockback to even come up.

I don’t see what anyone’s arguing about at this point though. If you like debuffing and you think their utility outweighs the loss in damage, use them. If you don’t, then don’t. If you like whips and you think their damage outweighs the loss in utility, use them. If you don’t, then don’t.

[Gen2000]

Zalure adding 500 damage? lol, I wish.

[Seority]

Was just an example. Nothing specific.
:disapprove:

[Talise]

Am I the only one who thinks ATs can use offense technics? Well... if you use a whip right, you can stun lock things, if you use technics, you can also stunlock things...without whip cooldown, meaning you can heal too. Also, you're tagging the enemy and actually dealing dmg with to it too...probably more than you're doing with a debuff. I dun know wth's going on if you have to stand there and heal every second or wait on some1 to get hurt so you can heal them, so... ya, what's this about not using a whip? Anywayyy....buffing/healing = support. Slowing down or attracting the enemy's attention away from danger or for mobbing also=support.

[Seority]

If you are a newman AT then yes you should use techs. Even as a human one as well. But for CAST/beast AT, you should only use your melee.

[thunder-ray]

If you are a newman AT then yes you should use techs. Even as a human one as well. But for CAST/beast AT, you should only use your melee.I secound this

[Pillan]

Using attack techs really isn’t so much a question of race so much as it is of situation. For instance, regardless of race, Diga will be your best damage to Mother Brain’s arms. And, likewise regardless of race, a high earth whip will be your will be your best damage to Mother Brain’s body. Once again, it comes down to versatility versus damage in either case. However, if you don’t want to invest spam synthing to gain high element melee, techs will be your better option.