Poisoning the minds of youth.

[Tessu]

You have got to be kidding me.

So, my family has carpooled with another family, the Courtneys, for a while now. Since I was at least in 6th grade, they've driven me and my sister to school (until I got out of middle school of course, but anyway.) So apparently the woman who drives (Khaila's mother, let's call her) would continuously impose conservative views on my sister (Alicia) and my sister was NOT allowed to argue back, which made her feel very disrespected. So I said to Alicia "If they say something you don't agree with and are pushing it on you, don't hesitate to argue, they don't have the right to do that." So recently, when they were on the way to school, Alicia mentioned something about a woman who got a divorce, moved down to California and married another woman.

Khaila said "That's, um, abnormal," and Alicia explained that she didn't think it was abnormal and why.

Then Khaila's mom comes in. Oh boy oh boy. Things are about to get juicy.

According to Khaila's mother, gay children are the result of mothers who cannot naturally have children artificially creating them and giving them life, and because the mother was going against God's will he is punishing the child by making it gay. Then she ended it with "Gay children are the children who were supposed to die."

......

I've raged so much about this that, at this point, I am speechless.

I always hated the woman and my mom always defended her. This time, she didn't.

EDIT: Now I mentioned earlier that she imposed "conservative views" on my little sister. I'm not trying to say that this is a conservative view, for those of you who get offended by every post I make. I'm saying that this is a fucking stupid view.

[TheOneHero]

Khaila's mom is something that should have been swallowed.

Err, I don't like that woman.

Can't you guys drive yourself or carpool with someone else? Neither of you should have to deal with that, especially your sister when she's at the age of being very impressionable...to certain respects.

[KodiaX987]

According to Khaila's mother, gay children are the result of mothers who cannot naturally have children artificially creating them and giving them life, and because the mother was going against God's will he is punishing the child by making it gay. Then she ended it with "Gay children are the children who were supposed to die."

"Oh hey, you got artificially inseminated, so rather than smiting you with my almighty wrath, I'll turn your kid into a homosexual so that he gets picked on and mentally abused all the way through elementary school while I'll leave you alone like nothing happened. Damn, I am so perfect and cunning."

"Oh hi kid. I'm proud to announce to you that you are gay! Hey, you haven't done nothing wrong, but because your mother was being an ungrateful bitch, I'll make you suffer instead of her just because you happened to be passing by at the moment. Enjoy your life!"

Well then, God must be a pretty stupid person to use that sort of rulebook.

[CelestialBlade]

Great example of someone who's only lived in their own closed mind their entire life. Wait till they get to whatever's after death and realize just how horribly wrong they are.

Apparently GOD LOVES EVERYONE is really, really selective.

[unicorn]

I love it how you can kill someone, take drugs, rape people, and its all fine if you genuinely feel sorry for it and believe in God.

Yet you're screwed for being gay.

Ah well. I think I'll have more fun in hell anyway.

[Chuck_Norris]

I'd make some long post about how laughable that woman's state of mind is, but I'll skip all that, since I'm sure it'll be said several times by others. :wacko:

[Vanzazikon]

Where the hell do these people get their stupid religious ideas from? I don't think thats something a priest would say.

[Majarra]

Brick. Strong,precise arm. Death. No problems with your sister. Dance on grave. Live happily evar after.

[xBladeM6x]

Wow, she's a bitch. Oh and she's ignorant. She OBVIOUSLY doesn't even understand her own religion. In Christianity, it says that you will go to hell for being gay. The -adopted- children have nothing to do with their sinning.

Please don't call me a religious nut, I'm just pointing out how the mom was wrong. =.=; Then again, religious ignorance will always exist. It's okay to be religious, but saying things about it that aren't true is just plain lazy and ignorant.

[Aisha379]

Where the hell do these people get their stupid religious ideas from? I don't think thats something a priest would say.

This is what I'm wondering. I'm a Christian and have been to a fair number of different churches in my life and heard a lot of people preach, but I've never heard anything like this.

Granted I do not support homosexuality, but any idiot can look around and see gay children have been born normally from heterosexual parents who have been married for years.

[CrimsomWolf]

Are you serious Tessu?

Wholly crap, I thought the last of those people were on this world in XIV century... y'know like times of Inquisition?

Such narrow-minded, xenophobic maniacs are precisely the reason why people are less and less religious (at least here in Europe).

Sometimes, I think that today's Christianity is anything but what God wanted it to be (whenever you believe or don't believe in God)...
It's sad to watch really.

[Kylie]

I'd normally tell you to just ignore her, but thst's pretty bad. :lol: I don't think that hatred can be tolerated... So talk to your mom about it and see if maybe you can get a new carpool going; perhaps with a lady that's less insane.

[afterthoughtz]

This is what I'm wondering. I'm a Christian and have been to a fair number of different churches in my life and heard a lot of people preach, but I've never heard anything like this.

Granted I do not support homosexuality, but any idiot can look around and see gay children have been born normally from heterosexual parents who have been married for years.
Agreed, i to am a christian and i also do not support gays and very outspoken about it, but i have never heard thoes views before, AT ALL!

[Gunslinger-08]

This is what I'm wondering. I'm a Christian and have been to a fair number of different churches in my life and heard a lot of people preach, but I've never heard anything like this.

Granted I do not support homosexuality, but any idiot can look around and see gay children have been born normally from heterosexual parents who have been married for years.

Yep. The problem is that people like this kid's mother are the ones who get heard the most. As Christians, we are not called to be God-like in the authoritative, judging sense. I don't support homosexuality, but part of God's love is the freedom to live however you want.

We're called to be Christ-like, which isn't about telling someone they're going to hell. It's about having compassion, "sitting with sinners," so to speak, etc. The hypocrisy is everywhere, and on both sides. I just wish it was the hypocrites who were content to sit back and keep their mouths shut.

I'd love to personally find this mother and beat her over the head with a Bible. I can't stand that kind of ignorance.

[Aisha379]

The problem is that people like this kid's mother are the ones who get heard the most.

Seriously. I don't like being grouped with people like her D=

I agree with your whole post though.

[MetaZedlen]

Oh Tessu, if only you were my size so you could throw a few fists at that, well, I can't even think of a deragitory name for someone THAT stupid...

If I could, I would let loose in an instant, but I don't want to offend anybody here, so I'll keep it tame: This is a very good example as to why I really don't study or practice religion, because it makes the idiots like this come out with their stupidity in full force, and I'm pretty sure that this "genious" might have been thinking afterwards "oh wait, does the bible really say that?"

Religion just causes too many problems, but I will say that it HAS successfully imposed a few good moral standards.

Sidenote: I'm not sure if I'm the only one seeing this, and it is a bit off topic, but I can GUARANTEE all of you this woman is one of those hypocrites that says WE are going to be the failures that are going to run this world... (and I hate it when adults say that, it really shows a lot of disrespect to the younger generations)

[BlaizeYES]

lol... yea, i'm not big into religion. the fanatics are always the ones that i'm concerned with... they are just creepy and weird. for some reason, the middle-aged overly christain women look the same way... an unattractive chubby female face, normally overweight with short hair, a pair of glasses and very pale skin, pudgy little fingers. you talk to them, everything sounds overly-enthusiastic and happy, regardless of what words come out of your mouth. even if you are clearly feeding them bullshit, they will keep going "wow, thats great!" and other supportive comments to butter you up... they have a fake, almost empty face being shielded with this false front of happiness with a hint of burning RAGE AND HATRED deep within. when they feel that they have blown enough smoke up your ass "conversing" with you, they'll begin talking about "the lord," and then you already see it going wrong. if you actually allow them to continue talking, you'll want to feed the fire and act like you're interested, or prod at their beliefs and have them get defensive, because after either approach, they will feel that it is time to "unleash the prophecies upon this heathen" and talk about repenting and getting baptised.

if the lady is talking about all this shit that is wrong, just keep poking at the foundation, that stubborn wall of religion is near impossible to topple... challenging anyones beliefs will cause them to get defensive. you want to keep giving smug, articulate answers to conflict with their beliefs. the best is when they will start reciting bible passages, thats when it gets fun

[TheOneHero]

It's not exactly religion that makes them that way, Zed and Blaize, it's more of their interpretation of said religion. (Y'know, taking it how they want, to feel better about themselves.)

[Leviathan]

I don't think punching someone would solve anything...
Religion is not "lol root of evil" Just that person is someone who takes it a bit far.
There are MANY kinds of religions. Buddhism, Taoism, etc that focus more on other things.

Ahem. That's very off-topic, so here's my post.
There a tons of those people around. I remember around election time some little kid [About 9 years-old] was handing out pamphlets on something, and when you opened it up it showed a aborted fetus, along with some riff-raff about other things that were considered big no no's [Gay people are the scum of earth, are bad bad people. Obama=Anti-christ. Chicago's area code being 60606 or 666 and how it's not a coincedence.]

Yeah. Whole lot of ignorance around.

[CelestialBlade]

"What Would Jesus Do" is no longer a tool used for self-improvement, it's a tool used for people to tell others what to do anymore. It's amazing how much religion has been twisted over the millenia, and how much different groups hate eachother despite the fact that every religion in the world pretty much spawned from the same exact things. Hell, many values Christianity were founded upon are now values that it frowns upon.

Religion isn't the problem, humans are the problem. It's always been that way.

[BlaizeYES]

basically, thats what it is. most of the overzealous ones have the same thing. it comes from loneliness or inferiority, or both, and it turns to anger and rage. so they start asking questions of "what would make this world better, what would we need to get rid of?" they find a religion that they can gather around so they can feel as if they belong, they feel they are a part of something, and promote a religious idealism. they become more concerned about imposing their beliefs of a utopian society onto others than actually just working to improve themselves. they get consumed with the thought that others are the problem, not them, and the problems in their life will go away when they iron out the problems of others. so they reach for certain guidelines that allow them to hate that falls within the existing structure of that religion, and as soon as they find others that agree and encourage it, they just allow themselves to keep diving deeper into that RAGE that burns deep within.

i was watching something on the biography channel a week or so ago, and this lady was holding a christain "retreat," trying to act like your generic overly happy camp counselor, encouraging children to attend the retreat. well, they go, and it starts out light for a few minutes, somewhat happy... and then she begins talking about "sin" being a "lion," as soon as this happens, i already called what would happen when watching it... she was about to succumb to her RAGE. within seconds, she is denouncing harry potter, and yelling at the kids to "CLEANSE THEMSELVES OF THEIR SIN" by getting waterbottles of hers poured on the little 9 year olds. i couldnt help but laugh as she was yelling, "YOU KNOW THAT WHEN YOU'RE IN SCHOOL, YOU LAUGH AT THE CHURCH, MAKE FUN OF GOD, ACT FAKE WITH ALL YOUR LITTLE FRIENDS. YOU ARE ALL FAKE SINNERS AND YOU NEED FORGIVENESS." at this point, the kids are literally broken, crying to no end, having this random middle-aged unmarried woman yelling at them, pouring water on their heads, and just causing massive amounts of embarrassment as she continues the psychological beatdown on a bunch of children. and i couldnt stop laughing, it was absolutely pathetic. a legal bootcamp for kids to completely brainwash them, to listen to this weird lady just force-feeding all her own values and beliefs into their little heads.


thats something i've thought about a few times whenever someone brings up "hitler as a monster," especially now that tom cruise movie brings the man back into conversation... how far off is anyone from what hitler did if they achieved that level of power?

[lainofthewired]

What has yet to be brought up is the fact that PBS aired a documentary on a Doctor in Canada who basically proved that a lack of (boys), or excess amount (girls) testosterone in the womb caused people to become gay.

Also The Bible says not to be gay, but the apostle Paul says never to judge those who are gay. Basically to let them be the way they choose to be.

[Gunslinger-08]

@BlaizeYES

While I'm not particularly appreciative of your tone on religion (probably just me), I will agree that situations like those you've mentioned do in fact happen. There are bitter, angry Christians, but there are also angry, bitter atheists.

However, that's not the norm. Grouping Christians all into a group and labeling them as Bible-swinging, angry, hellfire-and-brimstone preachers is no more fair than someone coming along and saying that all atheists are a bunch of unhappy people who get off on bullying Christians.

[Sinue_v2]

She sounds like someone who would send their kids to Jesus Camp. If you haven't seen the flick yet, watch it. If you have a 360 and Netflix, stream it over. It's seriously one of the most disturbing films I've watched in quite a while, and it's a disturbing expose of fanatical evangelical christian America, produced and directed (I believe) by moderate Christians.

What they put those children through amounts to no less than cultish brainwashing and child abuse of the highest magnitude - by killing their minds with fanaticism and literalism before they even have a chance to form their own unique identity or ask the sorts of questions which lead to personal and spiritual growth. All in order to push a right-wing religious agenda which should frighten even most right wing conservatives. One child even professed to being "born again" at age 5 because he wasn't satisfied with his life and needed "more purpose".

[Tessu]

I guess it's time for me to leave some more insights...

Well, okay. Personally, I don't find it any better when people say that "it's women like her who make me hate religion(and/or religious people)!" ... It's almost like saying "It's people like him that make me hate blacks!"

Now, I'm not particularly religious myself, but I don't like to hear people diss religion because I've grown up with it all around me, and it hasn't ever once taught me bad. (Probably because I've been taught by professionals and not fanatics.) I learned all my morals, tolerance, patience, everything from what I was taught in Religion class, and when I look back sometimes I think without it I'd have totally lost hope by now.

What should be being said is "It's misinterpretations like that which cause me to hate misinterpreting" or something.

[BlaizeYES]

She sounds like someone who would send their kids to Jesus Camp.


hahahahah YES! that was it! JESUS CAMP, thats what i was watching. you heard the lady when the kid said that parent-fed line about wanting god in his life at 5 because he felt everything in his life was unfulfilling... she was trying so hard to mask her doubt in that kids claim at wanting god at 5, all she wanted was that kid to come to that camp so she could just mentally abuse the fuck out of him.





and no, i dont consider all christains to be bible thumpers. i know lots of people from many different faiths, and typically most of them never bring up the topic, but there are also the few that will... but it only takes a minute to see if they actually believe and want to better themselves using the religion, or if they are using the religion as a machine to feed their already-existing anger and keep that unjustified arrogance for believing in a faith. telling themselves after dealing with a difficult person "they are going to hell and justice will be served" isnt going to repair their damaged ego... and all its doing is putting more support on an unstable foundation. but all religions have their own forms of meditation, have their own forms of peace, self-satisfaction, and enlightenment. if they use a specific religion as a surfboard to RIDE THE WAVE TO EMINENCE, then to each his own

[Nitro Vordex]

It's not exactly religion that makes them that way, Zed and Blaize, it's more of their interpretation of said religion. (Y'know, taking it how they want, to feel better about themselves.)
The case of hearing what they want to hear, huh? Makes a lot of sense to me.

I can't really be religious, because I'd have way too many questions and I'd piss off pastors and things.

[lainofthewired]

I saw parts of "Jesus Camp". The part that disturbed me the most was when they were reaching out to a card board cut out of bush. Being told something like he was a prophet of God. They were all in tears.

[MetaZedlen]

It's not exactly religion that makes them that way, Zed and Blaize, it's more of their interpretation of said religion. (Y'know, taking it how they want, to feel better about themselves.)

I know what you are saying here, and the misinterpretation thing was what I was trying to get at, I just couldn't think of how to explain it properly ;)

I don't have anything negative against those of you and anybody else that studies religion (if I may say so, I wouldn't mind promoting it, well, having a belief, because I do know that it does make people feel secure and fulfilling), but the sad thing is that I have also noticed that people won't believe what they want to believe, they will just go along with someone else's bullshit views (like the one mentioned).

[KaFKa]

Religion isn't the problem, humans are the problem. It's always been that way.

Quoted for truth, I couldn't have said it better myself.

Everyone shuold read the above quote and think on it for a moment. Then, with that thought in your mind, read the OP again.

You will find that, no matter your religious or political preference, great truth is to be found in the words; Humans are the problem, not the symbols they choose to attach their ideas and ideals to.

[Sinue_v2]

Humans are the problem... seems like a lazy answer to me. It's like asking, why is my router not working? Because it's the router. Yeah, Linksys might make some pretty cheap crap - but that doesn't solve my issue. Unfortunately, we don't have the luxury of switching out to a new race which can avoid these pitfalls - so we have to deal with the problem as it is.

Thankfully, others have taken it upon themselves to identify and address the problems surrounding fundamentalism, be it religious, political, social, or otherwise. If you want to read up on it, check out The Fundamentalism Project (http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Complete/Series/FP.html). I haven't read it myself, yet, but be warned - it makes for more than just a little "light reading". It's a five volume comprehensive study.

[SStrikerR]

Humans are the problem... seems like a lazy answer to me. It's like asking, why is my router not working? Because it's the router. Yeah, Linksys might make some pretty cheap crap - but that doesn't solve my issue. Unfortunately, we don't have the luxury of switching out to a new race which can avoid these pitfalls - so we have to deal with the problem as it is.

Thankfully, others have taken it upon themselves to identify and address the problems surrounding fundamentalism, be it religious, political, social, or otherwise. If you want to read up on it, check out The Fundamentalism Project (http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Complete/Series/FP.html). I haven't read it myself, yet, but be warned - it makes for more than just a little "light reading". It's a five volume comprehensive study.

If the people made a better router in the first place you wouldn't even have a problem to begin with, now would you?

[Aisha379]

If the people made a better router in the first place you wouldn't even have a problem to begin with, now would you?

Yeah - until people started misreading the manual and incorrectly installing the router.

[SStrikerR]

So again, it's humans. We suck D=

[BlaizeYES]

Yeah - until people started misreading the manual and incorrectly installing the router.


hahahah, what the hell? yea, this discussion has been shot out of orbit

[Aisha379]

Obvious Metaphors can do that I'm afraid. =(

[Sinue_v2]

I simply see no reason to harsh on humanity. We are simply a natural product of a natural system, warts and all. I highly doubt that any other species put in our position would have fared any better by whatever standards they are judged against.

Apologizing for being human? Ashamed of being human? Humanity sucks? That kind of shit is one of the main purviews of religion, and it's one of the factors that drove me away from it.

[lainofthewired]

Christianity's point is to strive to be a better person. Not all people can undrstand that, so they get crazy and go off on ego trips.

It is not to put people down for being human.

[Sinue_v2]

Incorrect. The very core tenant of Christianity is the acceptance of Christ as your savior in order to remove the stigma of original sin - which all mankind has inherited since "the fall" and the subsequent expulsion from Eden. This is why creationists do not want to accept anything which contradicts the literal interpretation of the Genesis accounts. Not because it's somehow "demeaning" to think that we are merely animals, and that we descended from - and still are - apes. It's because without the fall of humanity, there is no need for a redeemer. There is no purpose for Christ. In their view, at least.

So, no. The crux of Christianity is the belief that you are damned to hellfire from the moment of inception for the sins of the fathers, for being the progeny of the original human who defied god and ate of the tree of knowledge. You are damned, for simply being created human. You were born unclean, and only through Christ can you be washed of this stigma and be allowed entrance into heaven.

(Ok, well perhaps not from inception. You still bear the mark of original sin, but God apparently makes special caveats for kids under the age of, I think, seven - which is the age of reason according to my parent's church. However, it should be noted that traditionally it was the Augustinian view that children - no matter how young - automatically went to hell upon death unless first baptized. This is why baptizims are still preformed so early.)

I don't believe the point of Christianity was ever to strive to be a better person, although it can certainly be used in that aspect provided some secular and humanistic temperance. Sadly, I feel that the bible is no moral guide, at least not taken as a whole, as it contains just as many endorsements for atrocities as it does good and noble teachings which ennoble humanity. The whole thing is written so vaguely that it can be interpreted to justify any action the reader wishes it to. (Remember, Christianity is OT PLUS NT, not just NT)

Also, OT, but something I've been ruminating on recently. To put the crucifixion in a light you might not have seen it as before - consider this. Once you strip away the romanticism, Christ was nothing short of a human blood sacrifice to appease an angry god, which is why he's referred to as the "Lamb" of God. The question I have is, were Christ created via immaculate conception, and the trinitarian view correct in that Christ was god in the flesh, then he would not bear the stigma of original sin. However, the whole purpose of becoming human and dying was to free us of this sin. If Christ did not bear this sin, then just what was the purpose of his death? Why would god need to take on human flesh to enter hell and free the saints, and break open the doors to paradise? As an omnipotent being, could he not have done that at any time should he have chosen to grant leinency to humanity?

Is this all just an elaborate scheme to try and save face in front of his worshipers?

[lainofthewired]

It was not God that crucified Christ it was man. He wasn't crucified to appease God. He was crucified because of jealousy.

Christainity was not the cause of pain and suffering, but those that claimed to be holier then thou. They did it under the guise of being christains to aleviate their contious.

[Sinue_v2]

I'm curious as to your denomination, as to my knowledge there isn't a single sect which doesn't accept that Christ was sent to Earth to die for our sins and for the sake of our salvation. That was his main purpose. Christ.... wasn't simply a martyr who happened to piss off the wrong people through righteous teachings. His execution was pre-ordained and he apparently had foreknowledge of it even well before traveling to Jerusalem for passover.

[lainofthewired]

Yes it is true that Christ did have foreordained knowledge of his demise, but that does not mean he had to die. The people who killed him were envious of him plain and simple.

[Thalui89]

I cant stand people who are so narrow minded. Especially religious fanatics who are opposed to pretty much everything that isnt deemed as 'normal'. people like that are weak willed and allow themselves to be lead imo. As for the woman preaching all that crap, hopefully she herself will not be walking this earth soon- people like her have no right to exist in my view as people who openly spread hate and rejection should have no place in this world. I dont see what the problem is with people choosing to be Bisexual and homosexual so long as they arent hurting anyone. Everyone is entitled to what they want to do and IF there is a god who is so loving towards the human race then I'm sure they would allow it. Its examples like this that truely remind me how flawed our race is.

Formal religion breeds chaos.

[lainofthewired]

Agreed. Even though I consider myself a christian, I don't believe in organized religion. It just creates a class system that should have never existed in the first place. Jesus said he who seeks to be first shall be last, and he who is last first.

[Thalui89]

Apologizing for being human? Ashamed of being human? Humanity sucks? That kind of shit is one of the main purviews of religion, and it's one of the factors that drove me away from it.


A few points on that:

1) Apologizing for being human- Whilst the characteristics to be 'bad' and 'hateful' are clearly built into us we should still try to contain it inside of ourselves (and before anyone says I am not religious) in order to better our race. So i think its actually ok to apologise for being human because essentially you are apolgising for failing to better yourself.

2) Ashamed of being human- I'm ashamed of my own race. Whats so bad about being ashamed of my own race? I'd quite frankly like my own race to be as 'considerate' to each other as much as possible rather than try controlling each other through religion, politics, intelligence and brute force. When i see the suffering that humans inflict on each other I'm ashamed of being human because its a disgrace that such an advanced species still acts so primitive.

3) Humanity sucks- It does. Whilst we are brilliant in certain aspects of life we are also flawed in other aspects, and sadly, the majority of the time the negatives out weigh the positives.

[Sinue_v2]

It seems to me that you consider Christ as far more of a philosopher than a savior. In that context, I wouldn't consider you a part of the Christian faith at all. I really don't want to get into a scripture throwing match (bible fight!), but I will link you to a .pdf pamphlet I found (http://www.rbc.org/uploadedfiles/Bible_Study/Discovery_Series/PDF/why_did_christ_have_to_die.pdf). First one that popped up on a google search to browse if you wish.

I simply find it ironic that you would criticize a fanatic for misinterpreting the meaning of Christanity, when it seems you do not have even a tentative grasp of the subject yourself.

Believe what you wish. Worship Christ, or whoever, as you wish. Just try to be accurate in your statements when concerning established religion/religions, rather than confusing it with your personal views.


A few points on that:

1) Apologizing for being human- Whilst the characteristics to be 'bad' and 'hateful' are clearly built into us

Are they? What is "Bad"? By who's measure? I think we can all agree that murder is "bad", but what about sensuality? Is an exposed bellybutton and low-cut top on a woman bad? That would depend on who you ask. A fundamentalist Muslim, a moderate Christian, and a secularist would all have very different opinions on the matter. I don't think being "evil" is built into us, so much as we have evolved a morality to guide us in a social society away from selfish acts which harm that society. What we're basically dealing with is a conflict between self-gratification and group dynamics.

I don't believe that "Good" and "Evil" are intrinsic properties of the universe. I think they are very much relative terms.


So i think its actually ok to apologise for being human because essentially you are apolgising for failing to better yourself.

Would this then suggest that those who do manage to better themselves are no longer human? That they are above and beyond what you would consider human? Bettering one's self (also a relative concept) is a noble pursuit, and one that we should all strive for. One which, I think, humanity as a whole HAS done over the centuries via the introduction of education, freedom of speech, personal liberty, etc. Perhaps the progress is not as fast as you'd like, but hey... we are only human. I still don't see it as anything to apologize for.


I'd quite frankly like my own race to be as 'considerate' to each other as much as possible rather than try controlling each other through religion, politics, intelligence and brute force.

The concept of control is fairly deeply ingrained. I'm not sure as to the group dynamics of Australopithecus, but I feel it's fairly safe to say that the instinct for "Alpha Males", Matriarchs, and territorial disputes is fairly well ingrained into our thought process. Looking at our primate cousins, I'd say we have at LEAST 10 million years of behavioral adaptations that we need to address. Perhaps much moreso. The important part is that we can identify them, and I don't think this will ever happen if we hold onto antiquated ideas of elemental good and evil such as at the root of many religions - or hold to closely to the precept that we are separate and somehow "different" than other animals. We are not so much "better" than other species, just differently adapted.


When i see the suffering that humans inflict on each other I'm ashamed of being human because its a disgrace that such an advanced species still acts so primitive.

Are we truly that much more advanced? Certainly our technology and thinking process is, but that process is filtered through a brain that has evolved for millions upon millions of years to accommodate the primitive environments and social groups our ancestors lived in. Changing that won't be easy, and it won't be a fast process - no matter how complex the thought process. While I may share in the dismay at some of the acts humans have shown themselves capable of, I do not feel ashamed for being of the same species.

As said, can you honestly name one other species that you think (granted the gift of our level of intelligence) that could do any better? Certainly the subconcious behavior tendencies of a solitary herbivorous animal would be much different than ours, but would they not also have their own failings as a species to contend with?


Whilst we are brilliant in certain aspects of life we are also flawed in other aspects, and sadly, the majority of the time the negatives out weigh the positives.

Addressed a bit in my above response. Just wanted to point out that the negatives outweighing the positive is only a matter a personal perception. Indeed, the negatives may seem to be so numerous only because the positives are so overwhelming that they are taken for granted - and are only appreciated when marred or taken away. Life is quite complex and multifaceted. Negative actions can have positive results in the long run, and vice versa. War, for example, is a travesty - but to a certain degree it is necessary to spurn innovation by providing a desperate necessity. War is what created the first computers and the internet, which have saved - and will continue to save - countless lives in it's many applications from advanced medical research, wireless telecommunications, to street light signal management.

[Thalui89]

Are they? What is "Bad"? By who's measure? I think we can all agree that murder is "bad", but what about sensuality? Is an exposed bellybutton and low-cut top on a woman bad? That would depend on who you ask. A fundamentalist Muslim, a moderate Christian, and a secularist would all have very different opinions on the matter. I don't think being "evil" is built into us, so much as we have evolved a morality to guide us in a social society away from selfish acts which harm that society. What we're basically dealing with is a conflict between self-gratification and group dynamics.

I don't believe that "Good" and "Evil" are intrinsic properties of the universe. I think they are very much relative terms.



Would this then suggest that those who do manage to better themselves are no longer human? That they are above and beyond what you would consider human? Bettering one's self (also a relative concept) is a noble pursuit, and one that we should all strive for. One which, I think, humanity as a whole HAS done over the centuries via the introduction of education, freedom of speech, personal liberty, etc. Perhaps the progress is not as fast as you'd like, but hey... we are only human. I still don't see it as anything to apologize for.



The concept of control is fairly deeply ingrained. I'm not sure as to the group dynamics of Australopithecus, but I feel it's fairly safe to say that the instinct for "Alpha Males", Matriarchs, and territorial disputes is fairly well ingrained into our thought process. Looking at our primate cousins, I'd say we have at LEAST 10 million years of behavioral adaptations that we need to address. Perhaps much moreso. The important part is that we can identify them, and I don't think this will ever happen if we hold onto antiquated ideas of elemental good and evil such as at the root of many religions - or hold to closely to the precept that we are separate and somehow "different" than other animals. We are not so much "better" than other species, just differently adapted.



Are we truly that much more advanced? Certainly our technology and thinking process is, but that process is filtered through a brain that has evolved for millions upon millions of years to accommodate the primitive environments and social groups our ancestors lived in. Changing that won't be easy, and it won't be a fast process - no matter how complex the thought process. While I may share in the dismay at some of the acts humans have shown themselves capable of, I do not feel ashamed for being of the same species.

As said, can you honestly name one other species that you think (granted the gift of our level of intelligence) that could do any better? Certainly the subconcious behavior tendencies of a solitary herbivorous animal would be much different than ours, but would they not also have their own failings as a species to contend with?



Addressed a bit in my above response. Just wanted to point out that the negatives outweighing the positive is only a matter a personal perception. Indeed, the negatives may seem to be so numerous only because the positives are so overwhelming that they are taken for granted - and are only appreciated when marred or taken away. Life is quite complex and multifaceted. Negative actions can have positive results in the long run, and vice versa. War, for example, is a travesty - but to a certain degree it is necessary to spurn innovation by providing a desperate necessity. War is what created the first computers and the internet, which have saved - and will continue to save - countless lives in it's many applications from advanced medical research, wireless telecommunications, to street light signal management.

1)Societies view the concept of 'good' and 'bad' differently however I was simply trying to use the example of aggressive actions. Most of the world does not agree 'serious' aggressive acts such as war and mass murder.

2) People who seek to better themselves are still human, they are simply just more refined and less barbaric and in a sense more evolved. For instance in society containing emotions such as anger can prove to be beneficial as it will allow the indivudal to socialise much more easily than if they simply allowed their aggressive outbursts to control them. Therefore by refining ones emotions one can is essentially adapting to the lifestyle that a large amount Humans now live. If they used their primitive urges they would likely be less successful in a typical modern lifestyle. This is evident in studies of aggressive criminals. Their failure to control their innate emotions has resulted in them being in a sense, outcast from society, something which could potentially prove troublesome for them should they be released (e.g difficulty in getting high paid jobs which would make the individual more financially stable in life.)

3) There will always be leaders amongst our race for without them there would be more chaos in our society (although this is dependant upon the type of leader). By having a leader our own race is able to have some level of order in which we can thrive and further advance our race. Humans are also in a sense superior to other species in that our superior intelligence has allowed our race to flourish rather than just merely survive as many animals do. Our intelligence has allowed our race to gain a level of understanding that places us 1 step closer to god hood (something which is desired by many people) than other species of the animal kingdom. However it is notable that in many respects Humans are no better than animals in that some of our base responses to situations are innate (e.g humans learn to fear things in order to make sure they come to no harm- animals also become afraid for similar reasons). Our intelligence has also allowed us overcome flaws in our own bodies designs. For instance our nails are considerably weaker than that of many other species however due to a superior level of intelligence our race has developed things such as blades in order to compensate.

4) IF there was another race on our planet with a similar level of intelligence to us then it is likely that they too would be faced with similar problems that Humans are confronted with today. However we should not assume that they would not be capable of overcoming them as fast as us. Individuals in our history have played a major role in how our race has developed for instance without some leaders certain actions may not have been taken (meaning technology may not have been acquired). Our race is full of indivudals who have their own individual thoughts therefore ideas on how to proceed could therefore be different in another species. This therefore means that another species could theoretically overcome obstacles faced by humans today. However the process would obviously take time.

5) Not all wars have created positive results. For instance israel and palestines constant disputes have merely drained medical resources which could have been spent elsewhere. There is also the matter that just because a technology was create dduring warfare doesnt enccessarily mean it would neevr have been invented without the war.


Apologies for any typoes that may be in that but its 1:30am where i am so im abit sleepy :wacko:

[lainofthewired]

I both love and worship CHrist as my saviour. I just think the things he said should be more important than the things he did.

[Sinue_v2]

I both love and worship CHrist as my saviour. I just think the things he said should be more important than the things he did.

The below video essay sort of reminded me of this discussion, so I thought I'd dip in for a quick revisit. The question which sparks the debate leading to this question is "Why do we wish our gods to die a bloody death"? Which is quite poinient when you stop to think of just how much of an emphasis (perhaps not you), but the majority orthodox Christians place upon the crucifixion and sacrificial nature of Christ. However the non-orthodox Christians tend to focus more on his life, which may betray a fundamental disconnect in how the two sides of the same faith view their teachings.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QIglmZ8C24
The video doesn't seem to be embedding properly on my side, however it is accessible by clicking the YouTube link at the top of the viewing screen. I assure it is still available.

The question it brought to my mind, is the faith you hold more reminiscent of a Comedy or a Tragedy? Is it sought for understanding, or escapism? This isn't to say that there aren't good and moral lessons to be taken from Jesus's words, but is this a true reflection of faith in his message and purpose as a whole? You don't have to answer me, specifically. I just throw it out there as something to ponder.

[Randomness]

From my understanding of the gospels, Christ's life was devoted to teaching, and his death to atonement. He spent his life showing people the path to salvation, and gave his life to make it possible.

Essentially, without his death, the path he showed his followers would be fruitless, but without his life, there would be no path.

Back to the original topic of the thread... Makes me glad to be attending a catholic university. Theology 101 does wonders as far as what is and isn't actually in the bible.

[Zarode]

Apparently GOD LOVES EVERYONE is really, really selective.

It comes down to "I love you! But...I don't love what you do." v:)v


And after glancing at this thread, yeah, religion does breed some..."things." That's fo' sho'.

[Solstis]

It comes down to "I love you! But...I don't love what you do." v:)v


That is pretty condescending. I'd rather believe that God loved everyone and everything rather than being particularly disdainful of things He never really commented on (sorry, Bible is pretty awful as a legitimate text).

[Zarode]

That is pretty condescending. I'd rather believe that God loved everyone and everything rather than being particularly disdainful of things He never really commented on (sorry, Bible is pretty awful as a legitimate text).

Your parents love you, right?


But then, you do things they don't like, right?

[Kent]

Poisoning the minds of the youth?

Isn't that what the minds of the eld have been doing, this entire time?

Your parents love you, right?


But then, you do things they don't like, right?
It'd be funny if the answer to both of those was "no."

[Solstis]

Your parents love you, right?


But then, you do things they don't like, right?

Oops! Sorry! Went Off-Topic!

Pretend I said something snarky in response.

Anyway, isn't poisoning the minds of the youth the only real privilege of the old?

[Gunslinger-08]

Oops! Sorry! Went Off-Topic!

Pretend I said something snarky in response.

Anyway, isn't poisoning the minds of the youth the only real privilege of the old?

No. When you're old, your privileges include being the neighborhood cop, calling in codes when your neighbor has a blade of grass in their back yard that's too tall, taking care of 3 dozen cats by yourself, spoiling grandchildren, and generally not having to work anymore. There are more, but I see no reason to list them. (mini rant about some of my former neighbors)

The kinds of people who "poison the minds of youth," like the mother in the original post... well, let me put it this way:

Most people who feel the need to preach like that are the ones who are dealing with the most conflict and guilt in their own heart. Rather than reveal any sort of weakness, they put themselves up on the pulpit (lol) to hide their internal conflict or distress.

[Zarode]

Oops! Sorry! Went Off-Topic!

Pretend I said something snarky in response.

Like hell I am letting you off free.

I want my answer. And "no and no" are not applicable. Emo babies.

[Solstis]

Like hell I am letting you off free.

I want my answer. And "no and no" are not applicable. Emo babies.

You don't really have a choice, do ya?

Suffice it to say, my answer had something to do with the relationship between my parents and God being two different things. As far as I can tell, my parents aren't omniscient, yuh? Your example was just as flawed as my original remark.

Not really much to discuss. I already did a thought experiment on the nature of God a few months back (in the Rants forum), and that ended up being a mess. You can go read, or re-read that if it makes you feel better.

Oh, and pretty sure all babies are Emo. Cry a lot, and have a pre-mirror stage belief that only they exist. Well, maybe it's more of an assertion. Not sure how big infants are when it comes to the whole belief thing.