Weak Players: Seriously, they suck.

[Aorre]

It's happened to the best of players: a powerful player starts up a random game to hopefully draw in some players after soloing for a while, in hopes of earning a better clear time. Then a few significantly weaker players join and slow the party down, leeching off the strongest player(s) in the party. And it is leeching. The less you lower the clear time in a party, the more you are leeching. Unfortunately, however, it becomes difficult for the stronger player to break the ice to the weaker player, because the weaker player comes off saying irrational things like "But it looks cool!", "That's my character's theme, and she has to be like she is in the RP", or my favorite "You're an annoying elitist and you have no life!".

When I played PSO, I ran into several players who refused to use Charge Vulcans because "they're cheap". Well, excuse me for using a "cheap" weapon that actually costs money to use, idiot. This leads me to an advantage of PSO: no booting system. Joining parties and obliterating monsters with my HUcast using Charge weaponry, Vjaya, and being self-reliant on my own S-Red's Shifta was the highlight of my gameplay experience because there was nothing they could do to stop me. For added pleasure, I lured mobs closer to pathetic players to watch them get GANGRAPEDHARD.

Now, because there are boot functions, they play on emotion and hide under the guise of friendship. They talk about a certain item they desire, yet can't afford; all they need to do is improve their play style in order to increase the amount of Meseta made each hour (MPH?). Once they strive for the best, all these things can come to fruition. Too bad it's denied out of ignorance and willingness to create personal rules that hinder character growth. For their sake, I hope their friends are very generous with giveaways, because lord knows they don't deserve them!

Elitism brings about efficiency in all areas of life. Elitism is good because it is expertise. In case you haven't noticed, people appreciate expertise in any particular field. Efficient players are far more scarce than horrid ones, thereby making them more interesting people.

[Adriano]

When I played PSO, I ran into several players who refused to use Charge Vulcans because "they're cheap". Well, excuse me for using a "cheap" weapon that actually costs money to use, idiot. This leads me to an advantage of PSO: no booting system. Joining parties and obliterating monsters with my HUcast using Charge weaponry, Vjaya, and being self-reliant on my own S-Red's Shifta was the highlight of my gameplay experience because there was nothing they could do to stop me. For added pleasure, I lured mobs closer to pathetic players to watch them get GANGRAPEDHARD.


LOL AO!! A++ 10/10

[Aorre]

Thanks, heh.

I have to be somewhat appreciative of horrible players, otherwise I wouldn't be able to sell garbage like [B]Kubiri-hiken for so much...

[Darkly]

Now this is a mirror rant to the other topic but bottom line for me is that this is a game and you can play however you want and so can they.

Put a comment saying elitists only or something.

[Outrider]

Elitism brings about efficiency in all areas of life. Elitism is good because it is expertise. In case you haven't noticed, people appreciate expertise in any particular field. Efficient players are far more scarce than horrid ones, thereby making them more interesting people.

Not only are those ridiculously broad strokes, but uh, elitism does not automatically equal expertise.

You could be an elitist and be terrible at a game. Elitism is a matter of exclusion, not of experience.

Plus, shouldn't this be merged with the other topic or something along those lines? Why would we have competing rants?

[Aorre]

Now this is a mirror rant to the other topic but bottom line for me is that this is a game and you can play however you want and so can they.
I understand that people should play how they want, but the problem arises when inferior players bring that trash into parties that want to do better.

Put a comment saying elitists only or something.
Would that be a nice thing to do? I don't recall seeing a comment in the other topic. :p

You could be an elitist and be terrible at a game.
If anything, at least being in the right mentality is much better than refusing to change one's ways. The idea is to strive for improvement, not to fail. I'd much rather help someone who genuinely wants to improve.

Plus, shouldn't this be merged with the other topic or something along those lines?
It could, but this seemed fair too. Why let the other OP take all the credit?

Why would we have competing rants?
Because I decided to create this topic! HURRRRRRR ^_^

[Midicronica]

inb4shitstorm

Unfortunately, I'm going to sound like every sap who comes in here by saying that people can play however they want to. However, I agree with you to a certain extent about players who use absolutely terrible gear and contribute nothing to the party can be a little annoying. The absolute worse kind are the PA levelers who use same element bullets, technics, or spreading skills (Jabroga, Tordano Dance, etc). If they're actually under-leveled and die continuously then perhaps it's just not the right level for them and I'd probably tell them that they'd be better off playing a lower level but I won't go as far as to boot them. But just because they slowed down you're clear time? That's a bit much.

[Adriano]

ITT: Another Reason why I solo, most of the time I get annoyed if I don't know the person in my party and they are uneccessarily weak, or getting lost in Crater, or The routes of Ep4, and I also get annoyed at the elitist know it alls that join and just think they have to tell me everything statistical wise about the damn game, that I know already, So more than likely I'm the only one I can tolerate.

[amtalx]

I appreciate your...enthusiasm, but there is really no need for that. Not everyone can achieve such ethereal levels of awesome as you have, nor do they have the desire. Instead of mocking them, try to help them. If they don't want your help, leave and run with your friends, assuming you can keep any around with that attitude.

[Tessu]

How do I had fun at game?

There are the elites. Those are the people who have gotten as far in the game as possible, have optimized their build for efficient runs, obtained all the valuable equipment, and know how to play the game very well. Those are good. You need skilled players in a game, otherwise people don't know what the fuck they're doing.

There are the elitists. These aren't necessarily elites, and they don't necessarily need to know what they're doing or talking about. They're just people who think the best is the only, and the point of the game is to be better than the next person, and completely reject those who are playing for any reason other than to be the best. It's never "That weapon sucks", it's "You suck for using that weapon."

There's a difference between promoting being a good player and condemning being a bad one. Encouraging people to get better is fine. Discouraging people who have no desire to is annoying. Elitism doesn't help people, really. If the bad players bother you so much, then leave, go solo, and look for a new party or solo forever if no one is as good as you.

Now it's different if you tell them that you're aiming for speed runs and they continue to be a nuisance and slow things down. But I either missed that part of the rant or it wasn't there. :<

[Aorre]

inb4shitstorm
Comments like these usually encourage conflict. Thanks a lot...

However, I agree with you to a certain extent about players who use absolutely terrible gear and contribute nothing to the party can be a little annoying. The absolute worse kind are the PA levelers who use same element bullets, technics, or spreading skills (Jabroga, Tordano Dance, etc).
This is what I'm talking about. On the bright side, PSU's party comment system has created ways to lessen problems of misunderstanding, I think.

If they're actually under-leveled and die continuously then perhaps it's just not the right level for them and I'd probably tell them that they'd be better off playing a lower level but I won't go as far as to boot them. But just because they slowed down you're clear time? That's a bit much.
To each his own, right? Who's really being more inconsiderate here? At any rate, thanks for your comments, Midicronica (am I the only one who constantly reads that as "mitochondria"?).

I appreciate your...enthusiasm, but there is really no need for that.
Oh, but there's a need for them to consistently bash strong players?

Not everyone can achieve such ethereal levels of awesome as you have, nor do they have the desire. Instead of mocking them, try to help them. If they don't want your help, leave and run with your friends, assuming you can keep any around with that attitude.
This is the reason why being elite has such bad connotations. It is consistently associated with snobby attitudes and that may not always be the case. I refuse to waste time on people who can not benefit me, or themselves, in any way later on. It's like giving a drug dealer grocery money. There's someone for everyone, so why not run with those who are either the best or in a similar state of mind?

[Kylie]

Elitism is not experience like others have said, and it doesn't mean you're good.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/elitism (read: #2)

Like Outrider said, it's more about exclusion from people that think they're elite. I mean, I understand that some people might not want to be slowed down (I don't care as much), but the thing is that you can try to help someone to do their best without trying to force your opinion down their throat or be rude to them / refuse to play with them.


This is the reason why being elite has such bad connotations. It is consistently associated with snobby attitudes and that may not always be the case.But elitism is snobbery. *points to definition again*

[Rust]

So...
What about those who carry crappy gear because they can't bear spending money on loloverpriced items, nor getting stuff given out by other people for free ? :wacko:

[Aorre]

Elitism is not experience like others have said, and it doesn't mean you're good.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/elitism (read: #2)

Like Outrider said, it's more about exclusion from people that think they're elite. I mean, I understand that some people might not want to be slowed down (I don't care as much), but the thing is that you can try to help someone to do their best without trying to force your opinion down their throat or be rude to them / refuse to play with them.
Finally someone quoted the dictionary. If you look at my first post, you'll see that I also said elitism brings about efficiency before saying that it was expertise. There's a grey area here, and a word is not always defined by its textbook definition; it's about how context and how people use it. Dictionaries change all the time. Judging from the replies to this topic, it's safe to say that people have very mixed feelings about the word, so it's unreasonable to always shove the dictionary in people's faces.

So...
What about those who carry crappy gear because they can't bear spending money on loloverpriced items, nor getting stuff given out by other people for free ?
What about them? It's their fault that they cannot keep up. If they made more Meseta, faster, this would be less of a problem. And how does one achieve that? Oh right, re-read the topic.

[Kylie]

Well, I'll give you the context thing, but elitism has always meant snobbery to me.

I'm pretty sure Vanzazikon was going by that definition as well when he made his thread.

[Rust]

What about them? It's their fault that they cannot keep up. If they made more Meseta, faster, this would be less of a problem. And how does one achieve that? Oh right, re-read the topic.

Re-read my post and give it a related answer, thanks.

[Sayara]

uh he DID answer Rust.

If novice player A couldnt keep up with playing in the hot games then he should at least get his shit together to be a bit better.

I am for saying you're weak and you need to train but i do feel if they have potential at least help em out.
or something..

[Inazuma]

players who straight up refuse to improve annoy me the most. since psu is a team game, id like it if everyone in the party was working together, helping each other to succeed in the game. its one thing if a weaker player joins and doesnt improve the clear time at all, but as long as he is aware of it and desires to get better, its fine w/ me. sometimes ill make comments to others and give them advice on how to do something better. the ones who want to be good at the game will often be grateful and learn from it, but others may just get upset and insist on their way.

the thing is, i think these "poor players" arent really completely against being good at the game. in their eyes, they are playing the game right. but they have made up their own set of rules and its holding them back. they just arent fully aware of it.

some examples of poor players made up rules could be:

- dont run ahead. everyone needs to stay together. tornado dance is a big no no :P
- variety is very important even if it makes you much slower. its better to kill all monsters slow w/ many weapons than to quickly slaughter all monsters w/ only a few weapons.
- meseta doesnt matter
- looks are more important than stats
- spamming support techs is more helpful to the party than actually attacking.
- everyone needs to stand around and wait for the force to apply buffs.
- using the same powerful PA over and over is wrong.
- good players are cheaters and assholes and they should be avoided at all costs
- dont sell items for a lot of meseta in the player shops. its better to give them away for free.
- the more members there are in a party, the better.

ok, gonna stop here. but you get the idea. these made up rules are harmful to the player and those who play w/ them. even though others arent aware of them, they are expected to abide by them. having these made up rules lowers your enjoyment of the game. the players who are doing great at the highest levels of play are having much more fun than the poor players. if they could only become aware of this and start playing the game by its own set of rules only, they will have a lot more fun.

FM is way more fun than MF! (^_^)

[Tyreek]

To each his own, but for that to happen, the player base needs to be put under a single mindset of how to play. It's the same as life; there will always be someone or something that disrupts one's natural flow when they encounter.

[Rust]

uh he DID answer Rust.

Uh no, he didn't. What is the meseta having to do with that ?
Thinking an item is overpriced is different than not being able to afford it.

Yes, I don't have many S-ranks, and I have NPC'd the few I had been given out by friends.
I hate using anything I haven't found by myself, that also excludes buying anything from player shops.

And I very well know how a weak or bad player can bomb a party, I'm playing to another MMO where even the leetest stuff can't prevent you from being totally wiped if another member of the team can't manage to do what he's supposed to do properly (especially on Elite difficulty).

But on PSU ? Don't make me laugh.
I'm barely past lvl 100 and I have to join missions with mobs 25 or 30 levels above mine, as a beast FT with A-rank stuff and underleveled techs, in order to find anything challenging enough to keep my attention focused on the game.
I tell you, I'm really not looking forward hitting the cap with high-end gear, everything gonna be so blatantly boring by then...

[Aisha379]

I'm kind've a fence-sitter on this topic. I think everyone should be able to play the game how they want without being ridiculed, but at the same time, I'd be lying if I said I've never gotten annoyed by jumping into a random party only to see everyone acting like idiots and constantly dying.

First off though, PSU is absolutely the lowest difficulty MMO I have ever played, so being strict about complete time efficiency for the sake of it is retarded. However, it sounds like you were specifically trying to improve your time on missions, which kinda changes things a bit.

I certainly don't think you're actions on PSO (gathering monsters around weaker places to kill them) is winning you any points with the community here or karma in general, you're somewhat obsessive compulsive behavior and narcissism aside, I'd have to say I agree with your general core of beliefs. But hating on more casual players is certainly not a good way to go about it.

I can really see why people like you piss off other players as well - its not that either side is so much better at the game than the other, as their mentality and time investments are different.

In the end though, I think the best thing is for the two groups just to try and avoid each other. If you enter someone else's group that plays the opposite of your "style", either suck it up or be the bigger man in the situation and leave without belittling the fun for others.


Oh, and I find it worth mentioning again that PSU is a HELLUVA easy game, and I'm pretty sure thats one reason it attracts so many casual players, but I've also never played an MMO with so much bickering in it. And this is coming from a WoW player. You know, the game that intentionally tries to cause strife between factions, and has huge hours long dungeons that requires infinite more teamwork than PSU will EVER have?

I dunno. I just think its kinda sad, really.

[Lyrix]

I feel it should be mentioned that elitism and elitist thoughts are almost NEVER a good things, as they have lead to false senses of superiority due to race, religion, et cetera, in the past, and as shown by Inazuma's use of "poor players" as if they are a separate species, a false sense of superiority due to something as ridiculous as video game ability.

Just figured I would throw that little bit of logic out there.

[Aorre]

Uh no, he didn't. What is the meseta having to do with that ?
Thinking an item is overpriced is different than not being able to afford it.
Meseta has everything to do with PSU. The item doesn't seem so overpriced when a player is filthy rich now does it?


But on PSU ? Don't make me laugh.
I'm barely past lvl 100 and I have to join missions with mobs 25 or 30 levels above mine, as a beast FT with A-rank stuff and underleveled techs, in order to find anything challenging enough to keep my attention focused on the game.
I tell you, I'm really not looking forward hitting the cap with high-end gear, everything gonna be so blatantly boring by then...
That doesn't change the fact that hitting the cap will make your runs faster, resulting in more Meseta, faster. Should I make a chart for you? >_>

[Rust]

That doesn't change the fact that hitting the cap will make your runs faster, resulting in more Meseta, faster. Should I make a chart for you? >_>

Oh sorry, I didn't know the point of playing to video games was to make virtual money.

BRB, gonna buy Soccer Manager 2008 ASAP.

[amtalx]

This is the reason why being elite has such bad connotations. It is consistently associated with snobby attitudes and that may not always be the case. I refuse to waste time on people who can not benefit me, or themselves, in any way later on. It's like giving a drug dealer grocery money. There's someone for everyone, so why not run with those who are either the best or in a similar state of mind?

There's s difference between being elite, and being an elite asshole. If you don't want to help inexperienced players, that's fine, but don't look down on them. I consider myself (more so a year ago than now) among the upper echelon of players, but I still take out time to run with lower level players and show them the ropes. When I was still green on PSO, I ran into too many players unwilling to diplomatically point out what I was doing wrong. If you are as knowledgeable as you say you are, PSU as a whole will be better if you try to help the 'weak players'.

[Aisha379]

There's s difference between being elite, and being an elite asshole. If you don't want to help inexperienced players, that's fine, but don't look down on them. I consider myself (more so a year ago than now) among the upper echelon of players, but I still take out time to run with lower level players and show them the ropes. When I was still green on PSO, I ran into too many players unwilling to diplomatically point out what I was doing wrong. If you are as knowledgeable as you say you are, PSU as a whole will be better if you try to help the 'weak players'.

Very well said. Especially the last sentence.

[Aorre]

Oh sorry, I didn't know the point of playing to video games was to make virtual money.
For PSU, that's the deal.

There's s difference between being elite, and being an elite asshole.
You mean there's a difference between looking out for Number One, and flushing your efforts down the toilet for someone else.

If you don't want to help inexperienced players, that's fine, but don't look down on them.
I will do whatever I want as far as looking up or down on people. After all, they felt the need to make a topic to denigrate one side, so I should have just as much right to do the same.

I consider myself (more so a year ago than now) among the upper echelon of players, but I still take out time to run with lower level players and show them the ropes.
Humanitarian. How cute.

If you are as knowledgeable as you say you are, PSU as a whole will be better if you try to help the 'weak players'.
Hold on. How knowledgable have I claimed to be? There's like, nothing new to learn from me that can't be found on PSO-W or elsewhere. The most I've contributed was a few pictures of items currently not released on the US servers, which hardly counts as knowledge. I've tried to help weaker players before, but my efforts are in vain when I see him use a Human Fighgunner or something else that wouldn't benefit me directly. There's just no point in trying that anymore. It's better to watch them fail and quit forever than just be deadweight in parties. They deserve whatever horrible experience they have in-game if they don't want to blossom later on.

Aisha, I read your response and agree for the most part. PSO-W's new slogan might as well be changed to "Play how you want". ^^

[Inazuma]

I feel it should be mentioned that elitism and elitist thoughts are almost NEVER a good things, as they have lead to false senses of superiority due to race, religion, et cetera, in the past, and as shown by Inazuma's use of "poor players" as if they are a separate species, a false sense of superiority due to something as ridiculous as video game ability.

Just figured I would throw that little bit of logic out there.

if player A clears missions in 10 mins and player B clears missions in 20+ mins, and you compare the two, wouldnt it be correct to say player B is a poor player? especially if player B flat out rejects improvement and has no desire to become good at the game. if its possible to clear the mission in 10 mins, and it takes someone twice as long to do it, then obviously they arent playing the game as well as player A.

elitism is just a nice word to use to make someone feel better about sucking at something. you want to be able to suck at something and not have someone else point out the truth to you. if they do, you can throw that word on them. i bet you are the same type of person who thinks its wrong to call people fat, retarded, crippled, etc, even if its 100% true. how come its ok to call a thin person thin, or a pretty person pretty?

so anyone who tries hard, achieves greatness and is capable of seeing the reality around them is a horrible elitist asshole? hell, being an elitist sounds great to me. much better than failure, having your vision of reality clouded w/ BS, and hatred for those who worked hard to succeed at something. that sounds pretty miserable, dont you think?

tl;dr ver:
elitist = someone who does their best, succeeds at what they do, and who wants others to improve and join them.

non elitist = someone who doesnt desire improvement, doesnt mind failure, but they hate to see others doing well.

which is really better? hmmm...

[Shadowpawn]

Inazuma, I think you're confusing an elitist with a perfectionist. They are not the same thing.

[Aisha379]

tl;dr ver:
elitist = someone who does their best, succeeds at what they do, and who wants others to improve and join them.

non elitist = someone who doesnt desire improvement, doesnt mind failure, but they hate to see others doing well.

which is really better? hmmm...




I can really see why people like you piss off other players as well - its not that either side is so much better at the game than the other, as their mentality and time investments are different.



This may be hard for you to understand, Boogazuma, but unlike your flat-out admittance before, some people don't have either the time or desire to play PSU all day! *gasp*

[AweOfShe]

I'm on the fence in this one.

People who strive to be better than average, and people who strive to just have fun: Both cater to the different types people that play PSU. Teamwork and recreation are both emphasized with either viewpoint.

Elitism is just another one of those words that just gets tossed around whenever somebody is speaking to another person s/he doesn't like, and has lost all meaning once it was thrust upon the shithole that is the Internet. Honestly, there are only assholes, and people pretending to be assholes (typically people that label themselves as elitists, but in the end, amount to no better than your average player anyway). And it exists on both sides of the fence. Neither just don't care very much to admit it. :P

In any case, it's not as if I disagree with many of the points given.

[Tyreek]

That seems to make sense.

[Inazuma]

This may be hard for you to understand, Boogazuma, but unlike your flat-out admittance before, some people don't have either the time or desire to play PSU all day! *gasp*

someone who doesnt have that much time can still have the desire to improve. btw, psu is very casual friendly. you can raise a decent character in a short time. i just bought a full set of 42% spears for a little over 100m total. compare that to a full set of 50% +10s and it could easily be 50 times that. the power difference between the 2 sets of spears isnt that huge.

anyway, if someone sucks at something b/c they dont put in the time to get good at it, then they suck at it, b/c they dont put in the time to get good at it. pretty simple.

ive only played a little bit of baseball in my life. it would be nice to be a pro and make tons of money but i just dont have the time or desire to work hard at it. is it incorrect to say that i suck at baseball?

it must be interesting to view a world w/ nothing bad in it. in aisha's eyes, there is no "wrong" or "bad" in this world. everyone is good at everything.

[Tyreek]

As I mentioned before, there will always be someone or something that will always get one's way that disrupts their balance. In this case, one's way of playing. Describing Aisha's point of view Inazuma, doesn't so different from your point about people playing by the set rules of the game, instead of their own. They should all come to one conformity(hoping that's the right word) right? But the human mind isn't like that. As much as we wish to not be involved in the bad things.

[Xaeris]

ive only played a little bit of baseball in my life. it would be nice to be a pro and make tons of money but i just dont have the time or desire to work hard at it. is it incorrect to say that i suck at baseball?

No. It is, however, incorrect to say that the pros in the MLB enjoy playing more than the kids dicking around in the playground.

[CelestialBlade]

Why is there even conflict between elitists and casual players? Did I miss something here? If you strive to be BEST PLAYER EVAR and want to brag about your....meseta per second ratio or whatever, then find friends that share similar goals and give you a competitive interest, and leave it at that. If you're a casual player, do the same--just with people that are merely playing the game for fun.

If you go into a random party and are pissed off by how someone's playing, you have no right to complain because it's a random party. It is your obligation to accept what you are going into. It's about as stupid as walking in the middle of an Islam worship service and saying the Gregorian Chant. Don't disrespect others just because their way of life is different than yours.

Either learn to co-exist or agree to disagree and leave eachother the *fuck alone*. I'm tired of these threads. Was it not mentioned that PSU is a team game? Find friends with similar interests and stick with them if random parties piss you off that much.

[Inazuma]

No. It is, however, incorrect to say that the pros in the MLB enjoy playing more than the kids dicking around in the playground.

i disagree w/ you there. i bet the baseball pros are having much more fun than the kids.

wouldnt you love to do well in a pro baseball match, go home w/ millions of dollars, and then have sex w/ a perfect 10?

[Xaeris]

Sure. I don't see what that has to do with the discussion though, seeing as I can rather safely say no one here gets paid millions or beds supermodels for playing PSU.

[CelestialBlade]

i disagree w/ you there. i bet the baseball pros are having much more fun than the kids.

wouldnt you love to do well in a pro baseball match, go home w/ millions of dollars, and then have sex w/ a perfect 10?
See, this is your eternal misconception I've picked up about you from your post, not everyone strives for the exact same goals. Some people that pick up baseball aspire for fame and fortune, being seen on TV, having access to whatever chick they want their hands on. But not every kid that picks up a baseball bat necessarily wants to make a professional career out of it. Why can't someone aspire to be a police officer or a firefighter and join a little company baseball league? Imagine if every kid that ever shot a basketball wanted to play in the NBA. The draft would be completely, unbelievably swamped, agents wouldn't be able to keep up with anyone because there'd be 6th and 7th-string college players, and you certainly wouldn't see many working professions around because everyone would be too busy training for basketball. Clearly this isn't the case, so obviously, not everyone wants to "go pro" at everything in life.

"Fun" is at most relative to the individual, not a societal norm. Some people enjoy playing PSU with their fellow casual friends, just having fun, knowing that they don't have to be the best at everything to have a good time. Others see PSU as an opportunity to max out as much as possible and are driven by the competitive aspect. Nothing is wrong with either approach, but what IS wrong is when one group tries to impose their will on the other, saying that their way is the only way. It's how wars start and it's what holds us back as a species; our inability to just accept one another for who they are.

You have fun in your way, others will have fun in theirs. It's important that we all just accept that and move on.

[xBladeM6x]

Actually Elitism leads to being an ass hole. If you haven't noticed, how many elitists are nice to anyone "below" them? Hm? I would say about none. Let alone being elitist probably means that you don't actually care about the thing your trying to be elite at, but rather for the bragging rights and increasing your own self worth to show off.

But I do agree with you on the leeching part. Sometimes people really don't do anything to help a party and they are better off playing with people who are at their own level. Such as if I go to do Scarred Planet S2 in hopes of finding a Kaos Knight, I don't want someone hunting it with me who is going like 500-1000 damage a combo. >.>; Sure it might help them do more damage, or get better weapons, but we all had to be at that point too.

[Kent]

if player A clears missions in 10 mins and player B clears missions in 20+ mins, and you compare the two, wouldnt it be correct to say player B is a poor player? especially if player B flat out rejects improvement and has no desire to become good at the game. if its possible to clear the mission in 10 mins, and it takes someone twice as long to do it, then obviously they arent playing the game as well as player A.
Not quite. This argument is assuming that the skill of the player is the only variable here, which is basically never the case.

It's entirely possible that Player B is using a class that is not well-suited to that mission, is a significantly lower level, or is less well-equipped when compared to Player A. None of these factors indicate a "poor player," but all of them can cause this sort of situation to happen. Just examples.

There are plenty more variables than just skill going on here.

tl;dr ver:
elitist = someone who does their best, succeeds at what they do, and who wants others to improve and join them.

non elitist = someone who doesnt desire improvement, doesnt mind failure, but they hate to see others doing well.

which is really better? hmmm...
You've got your definition of elitist mixed-up, as it seems.

An elitist is someone who stops at nothing to be the best that they possibly can at what they do, and will never accept being anything but the best. At the same time, they are also someone that rejects the ideals of anyone with a lesser ambition than theirs - usually in a "passionate" or even violent manner - and looks down on those people are inferior. These are the people who play games and are driven not by the game itself being enjoyable, but the fact that they want to be better than everyone else. This is also where they get their reputation for bring absolute pricks from - the fact that they look down on people who aren't after the same thing.

Needless to say, you're completely wrong about non-elitists hating others that do well and having no desire for improvement. It's entirely possible to desire improvement while not shunning and beleaguering those that aren't among the elite in skill or ambition. Likewise, it's also possible for an anti-elitist to hate elitists, while at the same time desiring improvement, just as it's possible for someone to not hate elitists, while at the same time not striving for improvement.

[Aisha379]

it must be interesting to view a world w/ nothing bad in it. in aisha's eyes, there is no "wrong" or "bad" in this world. everyone is good at everything.


It must be interesting to view a world where you think your god, and you fail to realize how hysterically twisted most of your views are, with everyone constantly laughing at what a presumptuous laughable asshole you are, yet you are too blind to see it.

You are a complete fool. And you baffle me. Even though I don't like Aorre's attitude on some parts in this thread, I at least find myself respecting his opinion and the way he talks, but you are simply...beyond describable in words. And no, I don't mean that in a good way. At all.

[Inazuma]

i dont think im a god at all and my views are based on reality.

[Nitro Vordex]

http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/1601/yesft5.jpg

Now I know why I keep coming back here.
http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/3708/1221439908547hb7.gif

[Tyreek]

I take it your night has been made?

[Nitro Vordex]

Indeed.

[W0LB0T]

Sup Nitro

http://www.pso-world.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=66&pictureid=6625

[beatrixkiddo]

zomg Smilax ur eleetist D:

[Aorre]

zomg Smilax ur eleetist D:
The nice kind, mind you.
http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144850

[W0LB0T]

Being Elite is the whole point of MUMORPERGERS (MMO's). There is nothing else to do.

[beatrixkiddo]

The nice kind, mind you.
http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144850

But you gave the good stuff to non-me-people ;-;

[Powder Keg]

Efficiency =/= Elitism.

[beatrixkiddo]

Efficiency =/= Elitism.

You're wrong! I know this because when I ask why people are using Dark element axes to Jabroga Pannons in Seed Express, I get called an elitist.

[unicorn]

You play online with a couple thousand people. Can't expect everyone to play how you want them to. Its like real life, everyone has different goals.

And thats why you make friends. Start up your own little clique of leetists, shouldn't be hard. I know a couple on this site I can recommend you.

[Aorre]

"Get over it or get a life" is what you deleted? Good decision, because that line is such bull. Really now, look who's talking. Of course everyone isn't going to play the same; it's a community. And as a forum community we should feel safe and secure enough to express ourselves.

[Outrider]

Wow, this thread is high on face-palm value.

Again, just to point out, elitism does not mean efficiency. There is a Venn diagram waiting to be made in which we point out that there are elitist people and efficient people and there is an amount of overlap.

And no, just because you're using the word to mean something else does not mean that it's more valid. Yes, definitions change all the time, but in the context brought up in the previous thread as well as in the fact that you're referring to a a word that is not elitism means that we only have the ability to go off of the standard accepted definition.

Aorre is arguing that the most important thing is to be efficient and good at the game, and that it isn't up to you to have to cater to players who are not as good or who aren't at a high enough level/have good enough gear/etc.

That is efficiency.

Elitism is to then say that you are inherently better than these people because you are efficient.

The previous thread was complaining about people who look down on others for not being as dedicated or following the same path as them. They treat that kind of player as being a member of a lower class.

To be arguing that elitism is good, you're then saying that it is okay to treat players you consider below you in inappropriate ways.

I've pointed out before that lots of internetters have some obvious social deficiencies, but I think it's pretty safe to say that you've got much bigger issues if you're trying to argue that it's okay to mistreat other people because they don't care as much about a crappy online RPG as you do. It's like trying to argue that you have every right to treat somebody like crap because you make more money than them. There is no real logic there.

[Aorre]

Wow, this thread is high on face-palm value.

Again, just to point out, elitism does not mean efficiency. There is a Venn diagram waiting to be made in which we point out that there are elitist people and efficient people and there is an amount of overlap.
I did mention there being a grey area a few pages back, if you don't mind reading.

And no, just because you're using the word to mean something else does not mean that it's more valid. Yes, definitions change all the time, but in the context brought up in the previous thread as well as in the fact that you're referring to a a word that is not elitism means that we only have the ability to go off of the standard accepted definition.
Putting the big E's aside, the idea of consistent character upgrading as a positive still stands. Playing English teacher all year is never going to change that.

Aorre is arguing that the most important thing is to be efficient and good at the game, and that it isn't up to you to have to cater to players who are not as good or who aren't at a high enough level/have good enough gear/etc.
As far as video games go, wouldn't you prefer the stronger option? One can either play video games or play video games and outperform most other players. PSU's imbalance really helps just about anyone gain an early edge, but the problem is maintenance and gradual advancements. The people who don't realize this are better off ignored by the general population until they come to the correct realization.

To be arguing that elitism is good, you're then saying that it is okay to treat players you consider below you in inappropriate ways.
And what's your point? Besides, this community has zero run-ins with me in PSU since my relocation to the Japanese server (the new rare mission is nice, so keep that in mind whenever you get it). And the select few importers present on the forums...are rarely present on JP PSU, if ever.

I've pointed out before that lots of internetters have some obvious social deficiencies, but I think it's pretty safe to say that you've got much bigger issues if you're trying to argue that it's okay to mistreat other people because they don't care as much about a crappy online RPG as you do. It's like trying to argue that you have every right to treat somebody like crap because you make more money than them. There is no real logic there.
Saying it's not logical because you don't understand my end. Classic. It's not like I really care about the game as much as the people, because the people definitely make the game more enjoyable, as demonstrated in thousands of topics.

As a side note, I've spoken with many individuals about the absense of importers and none have pinned anything to "elitism" per se. But occasionally I receive hurtful mails like these:
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e391/pandawear/7.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e391/pandawear/8.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e391/pandawear/9.jpg
For those of you who blame others for menial inconveniences like these, open your eyes and do some research. There's a vast amount of friendly people here just waiting to give you their opinion and companionship.

[beatrixkiddo]

lol Sounomi

[Inazuma]

sounomi doesnt sound very friendly there. she refused to play w/ me just b/c i try my best in the game and now is doing the same for someone else just b/c they played w/ me. who exactly is the unfriendly one here? -_-

[Tyreek]

Try your best in what approach? This piqued my interest.

[Vanzazikon]

Judging inferiority because of non-conformity towards your ideas, guidelines or rules is beyond me. Your guidelines may be good; however, it's just an opinion meaning it isn't absolutely "best". There's no need to enforce your ideas on people and deem them as "weak" because they disagree with your methods or standard of thinking.

[Inazuma]

Try your best in what approach? This piqued my interest.
try my best, meaning im playing the game as best as i can, and not being held back by any personal rules. in other words, im raising a male cast FM, trying to max out everything, and clear missions as fast as possible. also, after i hit lv 170, i should try to keep my parties small and try to avoid playing w/ ppl who cant contribute anything to the party.

in psu, you raise a char, earn meseta and kill monsters. im trying to do all of those as good as possible.

[CelestialBlade]

sounomi doesnt sound very friendly there. she refused to play w/ me just b/c i try my best in the game and now is doing the same for someone else just b/c they played w/ me. who exactly is the unfriendly one here? -_-
Have you ever stopped to think that maybe, just maybe, your obsession with being the best in the game is driving people away from you? Can you think outside of that mentality long enough to consider that notion? It's good that you have your goals, but it's possible that you may be so caught up in achieving those that you don't realize that those same actions are hurting others.

[rogue_robot]

I have one thing to say (for both this and the other topic):


This kind of BS is exactly why so many games have been creating different "types" of servers (social and ranked, pvp and non-pvp, etc.)...

Both sides just have to learn to accept the others' play styles and get over themselves. Your way of doing it is not "correct" - I don't give two shits what you think the game was made for - and their way isn't "wrong."


Me? I actually mix it up a little. I strive to be good in games I play (and if I actually played PSU online, I'd work to be an asset to parties I joined, not a leech), but I try to keep a certain "feel" about the character at the same time.

Example: I've always wanted to run a FOcaseal. At the same time, though, I will admit that PSU - contrary to the ability to select that combination in game - just isn't the game to do it. So I settle with a (offline) HUcaseal that uses GiResta and the occasional - and rare - fire tech (actually, I also run a second copy of the character as a FOmarl, going all-out with the techs - even as a CAST, the character is supposed to look fairly close to human) - and were I online, I'd probably take that character and go either human WT (dropping the race), or CAST fF/FM (giving up the techs). As long as I can keep the general feel going, I'll be happy with it. However, I'm not about to throw out the character's style entirely for the sake of min-maxing, nor will I tolerate trash stats just to perfect "the look."

That's just how I play. Doesn't make me "correct," or anyone else "wrong." Fact is, I don't have fun if I'm not doing a little RP-ing when playing these kinds of games - after all, that's why you get to play around with you character's appearance, isn't it?



If this game was truely only about better stats and bigger numbers, wouldn't it make more sense to make all the weapons - from 1* to 15* - look the exact same? Less work on ST's part, at least, if that really was the only purpose of playing.

At the same time, if "the look" was all that mattered, wouldn't it make more sense to remove stats entirely? Make all enemies just take a certain number of hits, regardless of what you're using? Again, less work for ST; balancing the game would be a breeze.

[Outrider]

Etc, etc, etc

Really, I stopped worrying about dealing with your concerns a while ago. I'm trying to make things clear to everyone else chattering in this thread.

I would like to check about one point you made, though - it seems that you're arguing that doing the best is the sole point of the game. Am I correct in assuming that or did you mean something else?

'Cause that's a whole other fun topic to get into.

[Commodity]

Just for the record, berserk is more accurate than charge.

I can run around Seabed with 3 HP, so therefor you are slowing down the party using charge. Why would you slow down parties in PSO then condemn those who slow down yours in PSU?

[Zarode]

Plus, shouldn't this be merged with the other topic or something along those lines? Why would we have competing rants?

No no, this is too great to be merged.


I agree, weak players do suck. But being the kind of person I am, strong yet helpful, I cannot help but see either to aid them, or get lost (me, leaving). Sadly, I'm a rather compassionate individual, even in video games, so I take it under me to help the less fortunate.



With information.


Truly, information is man's strongest ally.




Also, Charge doesn't get you killed in Seabed. And don't give me that crap about HURR U SHULDNT DYE NE-WEIGHS

Screw you, I remember watching your pussy ass wallow on the ground because of a mil lily.

[Powder Keg]

Doesn't matter what anybody really says....my Neutral Kan Yu is the best weapon in this game.

[Cracka_J]

Guys, as idiotic as it sounds, you don't pay for everyone's account. If you did, you may have some say in how they play, but you don't, no matter how hard you try. Give it up.

Aorre, nothing against you personally. You've been a chill guy when we've chatted briefly, and I know it's irritating to play with people who are running around like chickens with their heads cut off. It sucks.

But that's why there's party lock options. There's only a handful of people I truly know I'll get good runs in with on PSU, and we play locked games when we do. I don't expect, nor do I demand everyone else to play on their level. I just expect to chill with people when I join random parties. So anything more then that is a "plus" in my book. They all pay their cash, let 'em play how they want.

Also, aren't you making the first mistake by creating an open random party? You already know, and have stated there's potential for bad players to join, right? Why not just play offline or solo if you know you'll output better #'s and time? I mean, you don't HAVE to play with the community, nobody is forcing you. You however, are the one trying to conform others to your gameplan. I can't agree with that.

[AlexCraig]

I think this has gone on long enough, and I believe any valid points have now been stated.