Game over.

[furrypaws]

Any game (especially PSU) in which there are save points where you die, and you have to go back to a previous state. Now, going back to the beginning but at least keeping any weapons, items, or experience you get is just fine, but it's a huge pain in the bum to have that whole last half an hour wiped out. When you get hit by a cheapo Megid in story mode for the THIRD TIME, it grates your nerves a little. No, actually, a whole lot. I have no idea why I can't at least use scapes in story mode, that would fix everything.

Nnnngh...

[stukasa]

I know what you mean, I hate re-doing work too. I hate it so much that when I'm playing a game that lets me save whenever I want, I usually save about once every minute or two. :lol: When I'm typing something in MS Word I usually save after every paragraph I write. That way, if the power goes out or something, I don't have to worry about losing my work.

By the way, they don't let you keep what you got in story mode if you die?

[furrypaws]

In story mode, if you die, it says game over and takes you back to the last place you saved. Pretty much like a power outage.

I'm also incredibly frustrated since I tried to blow off some steam by playing a different mission. I got frozen in the room right before the boss and died. I am so ticked off right now...ugh. Don't get me wrong, it's not the difficulty I'm complaining about (I love tricky things) it's just when the game penalizes you for losing to such challenges. Hey, I worked hard to get there. Don't take that away from me.

[Kent]

Ah, one of the perpetual issues in game design: What to do about when a player loses.

On one hand, you could give them the ability to save anytime, anywhere... But that leads to things getting too easy, and people not thinking on their toes, and abusing quick save/load (like mapping them to the left and right mouse buttons). In some cases, it actually works pretty well without making things too easy (The Last Remnant, TWEWY, etc.).

On the other hand, if you don't let players save often enough, they get frustrated if they lose a lot of work (possibly even hours) should they die or game over somehow. However, spacing between save points can be an interesting way to curb difficulty levels (as evidenced in things such as Ninja Gaiden, where the real difficulty lies in lasting between save points, despite that they're somewhat generously-placed).

It is something that needs to be carefully-considered by people making games, but unfortunately, some designers brush it off a little too readily.

If I'm not mistaken, in Phantasy Star Universe, a death in story mode results in the title screen, and you lose all progress (including items acquired) since the last time you saved. Such a system isn't inherently bad on its own, but rather, it's just moronic when paired with enemies that spit a spell that inflicts instant death.

[furrypaws]

If I'm not mistaken, in Phantasy Star Universe, a death in story mode results in the title screen, and you lose all progress (including items acquired) since the last time you saved. Such a system isn't inherently bad on its own, but rather, it's just moronic when paired with enemies that spit a spell that inflicts instant death.

Exactly.

Just so we're clear, I'm not asking for the ability to save anywhere (although not having an autosave system for this game is foolish offline), just the ability to return to the lobby when I die similar to online mode. You know what? I can lose all of my progress in that stupid hour long mission. I just want those items and experience I got.

[amtalx]

You should try Steel Battalion. If you die, that's it. No checkpoints, no restarting the level, you go back to the first level with nothing. Even if you get all the way to the end of the game a die without ejecting, you have to start from the very beginning.

[Anduril]

You should try Steel Battalion. If you die, that's it. No checkpoints, no restarting the level, you go back to the first level with nothing. Even if you get all the way to the end of the game a die without ejecting, you have to start from the very beginning.
Is that the one with the really large extra hardware you can buy to increase the "reality" of the game? I had a friend who got that once and he told me that he died on the last level and in his fury of all the time wasted he threw all of the stuff in the garbage.

[Kylie]

At least they've gotten better about it through the years. I've even heard some people say that games have too many check points now, but I'm indifferent to it. It depends on the game and if the death was cheap.

[amtalx]

Is that the one with the really large extra hardware you can buy to increase the "reality" of the game? I had a friend who got that once and he told me that he died on the last level and in his fury of all the time wasted he threw all of the stuff in the garbage.

Indeed. Its the one with the massive 40-button controller and foot pedals. Fun game, and the sense of urgency really comes through.

[Weeaboolits]

When the only thing you're thinking while playing is "please let me save, please let me save, please let me save", there's something wrong.

Also another save related issue that most developers, but not all are fairly good at avoiding is letting you screw yourself over with a save, such as saving with no HP or recovery items before a big battle, or a shooter quicksaving during a firefight.

[Rust]

Also another save related issue that most developers, but not all are fairly good at avoiding is letting you screw yourself over with a save, such as saving with no HP or recovery items before a big battle, or a shooter quicksaving during a firefight.

I remember having done that on Shadow Warrior, once.
I quick saved after a tough fight and had barely any HP left.
The fun thing is that the fight wasn't actually at its end, as I didn't notice that dude on the side shooting a rocket at me as I was pressing the save key.
Everytime I was loading my save, I was taking the rocket straight in the face. No way I could evade it.
I ended up starting over the whole the game and being more careful about quick save frenzy. ;o

[Zarode]

Usually, when I make progress, and die before saving, it comes down to two choices:

Do I wanna do it again, or not?

BREAK TIME!

[furrypaws]

Steel Battalion sounds more like a home acrcade game than a console game. .-.

And, for the record, no, I wouldn't be able to stant that. I'd play the firs tmission, die, and never play the game for 10 years and then resell it for like 5000 dollars. =D

[Alnet]

Yes, that's bad, but did anyone here ever play Haunted Castle?

It's like the classic Castlevania games, but you die once, and you have to restart the game over again. And if you played those games, you know that:

1.) Belmont cannot run.
2.) Belmont cannot jump (it's more like bunny hopping, really).
3.) If Belmont jumps, Belmont cannot change direction in midair.
4.) Belmont has no HP. He will die in > or = 5 hits.
5.) The game sends nonstop waves of enemies at you.

THAT is difficulty. :wacko:

[Rust]

Yes, that's bad, but did anyone here ever play Haunted Castle?

It's like the classic Castlevania games, but you die once, and you have to restart the game over again. And if you played those games, you know that:

1.) Belmont cannot run.
2.) Belmont cannot jump (it's more like bunny hopping, really).
3.) If Belmont jumps, Belmont cannot change direction in midair.
4.) Belmont has no HP. He will die in > or = 5 hits.
5.) The game sends nonstop waves of enemies at you.

THAT is difficulty. :wacko:

What about BattleToads ?
The instant kill collapsing floors on 1st stage were so fucked up when you didn't know the game by heart. <_<

[SubstanceD]

Ah, one of the perpetual issues in game design: What to do about when a player loses.

On one hand, you could give them the ability to save anytime, anywhere... But that leads to things getting too easy, and people not thinking on their toes, and abusing quick save/load (like mapping them to the left and right mouse buttons). In some cases, it actually works pretty well without making things too easy (The Last Remnant, TWEWY, etc.).

On the other hand, if you don't let players save often enough, they get frustrated if they lose a lot of work (possibly even hours) should they die or game over somehow. However, spacing between save points can be an interesting way to curb difficulty levels (as evidenced in things such as Ninja Gaiden, where the real difficulty lies in lasting between save points, despite that they're somewhat generously-placed).

It is something that needs to be carefully-considered by people making games, but unfortunately, some designers brush it off a little too readily.

If I'm not mistaken, in Phantasy Star Universe, a death in story mode results in the title screen, and you lose all progress (including items acquired) since the last time you saved. Such a system isn't inherently bad on its own, but rather, it's just moronic when paired with enemies that spit a spell that inflicts instant death.

If there is one thing I have never liked about SO and PSU it is megid. Normally this problem is easily solved by arming yourself all the scapedolls you could possibly carry but as fuurypaws pointed out you can't always carry them in PSU. Being stuck playing PSU offline ( no broadband where I live ) I am very familliar with fuurypaws' plight. I don't mind dieing in game, losing all my progress and having to begin again rom my last save point as long as I feel as if I lost ( died ) fair and square, but when you are up against an instant death attack ( especiall on th elater difficulties where more and more enemies use it ) it's hard not to feel as if the game isn't being fare or it hasn't been designed very well.


When the only thing you're thinking while playing is "please let me save, please let me save, please let me save", there's something wrong.

Never a good sign in any game.


Also another save related issue that most developers, but not all are fairly good at avoiding is letting you screw yourself over with a save, such as saving with no HP or recovery items before a big battle, or a shooter quicksaving during a firefight.

Intersting that you would accidently bring up one of my pet peeves of the current generation of games, Auto-Saving. I don't like it, especially in games with rpg elements ( Fable 2 and Too Human spring to mind ). I have a bone to pick with Too Human in particular ( the game even auto saves when you exit your menu ): I am stuck on the last level, the game has me Auto saved right in front a ( seemingly never ending ) hoard of ememies and blob like guy in hover chair. My current armour is as good as useless ( too much damge ) and as such it only takes 1 or 2 attacks to kill me, I have no back up armour ( none at all, not even blue prints ) so I have to make do with dieing after every hit ( and watching that crappy Valkyrie animation ), there is no way to repair my armour in the middle of a level, I can't equip anything else and there is no option to leave the level and go back to headquarters to restock. So I am stuck dieing over and over and over again, sometimes I die as soon as Valkyrie drops me back into the level. I think this is an example of poor game design. The game has me trapped in this spot in what is more or less a hopeless situation. The only hope of me getting past here is to begin a new charcter and hope I don't repeat the same mistake of salveging off all my spare armour just because the stats arn't as high as what I have euipped.


What about BattleToads ?
The instant kill collapsing floors on 1st stage were so fucked up when you didn't know the game by heart. <_<

I still have nightmares about Battletoads. I read a article recently where they listed some of the most difficult games ever created and Battletoads ranks way up there on that list. I actually owned a copy of Battletoads, getting past the second level ranks as one of my greatest gaming accomlishments ( I am not kidding you ). I know/knew a guy who actually beat the game. I leant him my copy for a few weeks, legend has it he left his NES on for a few days, he never turned it off because he was afraid of having to go through all the levels again if he was forced to leave the game ( like when he had to go to bed or go to school ). It's easy to forget what gaming was like before save points. In some ways it has made games easier, in other ways it has just made games more complictaed ( see my mini rant on Too Human ).