Gunners superior to Melee Fighters?

[robinhood]

It seems like Ranged gunners are a whole lot more efficient than Melee attackers, with their ability to just keep shooting non-stop while strafing and dodging, never really taking damage. Me on the other hand as a Melee Hunter, I go up to enemies and swing my saber but keep getting hit and having to use monomates. I can do good damage when I DO hit my enemies, but what's the point if I just keep getting stunned and knocked down. I'm only level 11 right now, but I'm just wondering if there's any insight you guys can offer.

For example, the video of Sophia killing enemies and not getting hit once for a full 10 minutes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yhmNUam5dE

^ A Melee Class would get hit so many times and not be able to do something like that, so wouldn't you say Gunners are overall superior?

[ashley50]

Hunter/attackers are frontline classes...they're supposed to take damage

[Hulksmash]

gunners are highly superior

[SuperChoco]

Gunners are about equal to Fighters in the end game.
The way I look at it:
Hunters have Jabroga and Majarra, the main damage dealers.
Gunners have shotguns and rifles, but the shotgun requires to be close to the enemy to do a lot of damage and the rifle runs out of pp somewhat quickly.

[NOC G4ME v2]

rifle: 800-1000hp
shotgun: 400-1000
i love gunmaster!

[Tetsaru]

I've always found guns MUCH more efficient than melee, save for instances when you have to fight bullet-resistant enemies; and even then, gunners have access to stuff like Burn G and Virus G traps to inflict status effect damage, not to mention their elemental bullets can too, to varying degrees.

There are several distinct advantages that gunners have over fighters:

1 - superior range (obviously), which allows for more tactical use of your weapons. Taking out enemies with a rifle from a safe distance before a melee fighter can even run up to them has always made me snicker. :3

2 - much greater access to status effects, and at higher levels (GM gets Lv5 SE's once their rifle bullets get to Lv41+). Most melee fighters have to rely on specific weapons, like the Frying Pan, in order to cause SE's. Also, more status effects means more offensive support: keeping enemies frozen or silenced, for example, makes it a lot easier for the party to take them down, as well as survive in times of trouble.

3 - arguably better trap selection, depending on class. FG's are second only to PT's in terms of trap use; FF's can't use any.

4 - significantly more accuracy to ensure that damage is dealt in the first place, and at a more constant rate, since guns don't rely on flashy PA combos. After all, LOLBIGNUMBARZ don't mean jack crap if you're constantly missing or get knocked down before you get that last big swing in.

5 - this is situational, but still a perk: generally higher EVP compared to most melee classes not only allows for negating attacks easier, but since gunners don't rely on combos for damage, this also makes Just Counters much more effective, especially with shotguns.

6 - elemental %'s for weapons naturally go up as their linked PA's level up to each tier (at Lv. 11, 21, 31, & 41), and is only limited by the Bullet level cap of the class. Melee fighters have to constantly worry about synthing/finding weapons with a high % already bound to them, not to mention for every element too, which leads me to:

7 - the ability to switch elements for your guns WHENEVER YOU WANT, depending on what bullets you've learned. Techers can do this too (although not as effectively), and I'm sure melee people would kill to have this ability.

Cons of being a gunner:

1 - LEVELING YOUR BULLETS TAKES FOR-EV-ER. I've been playing for 2 years now, and I STILL have a lot of bullets that I haven't maxed yet. Of course, I don't exactly solo constantly to power-level them either... >_<

2 - Some people hate gunning because of its monotony; you're pressing the same button over and over most of the time. And on that note:

3 - Gunners can't use the PA button for some reason, unless you're wielding a non-gun weapon. Melee fighters use it for their PA's, and techers bind another tech to their weapons with it... but apparently, Segac couldn't come up with anything good for us gunners to use it for (other than SUV and traps, lol...).

4 - A lot of enemies are bullet-resistant, which can cut your damage output significantly.

5 - Most of the trade-in PA's for bullets just completely suck ass nowadays and aren't worth getting. Killer Shot and Boma Duranga are the only ones I still use.

If you decide to get into gunners more, just keep in mind that you'll get out of it what you put into it. It's very critical that you have all the elements covered with your PA's, and that you LEVEL THEM so they gain their useful perks. It's not for everyone, but I'd take a good rifle over a melee weapon any day. :3

[beatrixkiddo]

Dodging hits doesn't kill enemies. Doing damage to them does. Yes, Gunners are much better at dodging. But does this translate into better at killing? Not usually.

[Tsavo]

Just attack is your answer. Used in conjuction with leveled photon arts and weapons with even mediocre percents the fact is fighters do insane amounts of damage. Will you get hit dealing it? yeah. But everything around you will be dead in half a second. The braniacs over at ST decided to give fighters slicers too making them LOLRANGARZ and granting them the ability to kill an infinite number of mobs at any distance, through walls, and over cliffs. A fully leveled and well equiped gunner is a force to be reckoned with. A fighter with same amount of time put into them however is an outright monster. It's called Jabroken for a reason.

[Kadajenova]

There are NO superior type or classes. They are all good IF you use them PROPERLY. Gunners does have more Acc. but less Atp. , more evp but less dfp and HP... not to count that with melee you can have all your weapons at 46-50%, only lasers do that for gunners. Plus a dus majarras combo will kill faster (but risker if you get hit), guns kill slower (but much less risk). So to me different way to play doesnt mean that way is superior or not.

[amtalx]

It really depends on the run, but the gain that gunners got with GM is bigger than the gain fighters than FM. Small mobs bow to Laser Cannons faster than Jabroga now.

[San Anto]

surely not laser hit 1-2000 max whilst jabroga hits 5-6000 twice....

[Smidge204]

How many individual enemies for jabroga hit at once? Lasers can theoretically hit any number as long as they're in a rough line.

Also doesn't take forever and a day to fire (especially for Gunmasters). So by the time you've got one jabroga off a Gunmaster has easily fired 4 or 5 times with his laser.

Lasers don't scatter the enemies all over the place, either... Mayalee Prism the exception. Edit: Sorry, Mayalee prism has knockdown not knockaway. Even better!

And to say nothing of status effects...


Dodging hits doesn't kill enemies. Doing damage to them does. Yes, Gunners are much better at dodging. But does this translate into better at killing? Not usually.

I'd say dying puts a pretty significant dent in game play, especially for the "no-fail" missions.

=Smidge=
Disclaimer, of course: I have practically mastered the art of bastard gunnery so I'm a tad bias.

[amtalx]

surely not laser hit 1-2000 max whilst jabroga hits 5-6000 twice....

Ever bother to count how many times a beam passes your head while you're warming up that Jabroga? Guess not. :p Also, there is no need to hit small mob enemies with 12k in damage. There's no overkill bonus.

EDIT: Smidge got to it first. :D Also, unless they changed it, Mayalee Prism does have blowback. Its the same as a Grenade Launcher.

[kejen]

Do a hybrid class. Fighgunner maybe. Get S rank dual pistols and machine guns so can dodge and strafe when needed. A rank slicers which can rip through a group of mobs. Crossbows which can do decent SE. Also get plenty of S rank melee weapons.

Or check out acrofighter. Only get A rank dual pistols, but twin ruby is just about as good as battlestoppers, S rank slicers, S rank range mags, S rank pistols. The attack speed and evp are great too.

I solo a lot, so limiting myself to only melee is bad news. Able to pull out dual pistols when needed is nice. Or able to stand far away and throw a slicer and watch all 6 mobs die at the same time is nice too. And if I want to run up and beat them up with daggers, sabers, claws, or knuckles I can do that too.

Only shooting a gun would get boring fast. But the great thing about PSU is you can chance class any time you want. So try out a gunner and see if it suits you better.

[Darius_Drake]

Look at it this way, yes the fighter will take more damage just to do damage but that is why the fighter has higher defense and hp. Being forced to trade hits is the whole reason they have a boost in those stats. Unfortunately moving to Fighmaster pretty much gimps both of those stats so your not really a tank anymore. It also kills all your range options by not letting you use slicers or handguns. Yeah, Gunmaster is by far the most efficient master class.

[robinhood]

Thanks everyone for the replies. Very much appreciated.


Do a hybrid class. Fighgunner maybe. Get S rank dual pistols and machine guns so can dodge and strafe when needed. A rank slicers which can rip through a group of mobs. Crossbows which can do decent SE. Also get plenty of S rank melee weapons.

...

...



About that: is it even useful to use lots of different weapons like that? It seems like the most efficient killing route is to just spam one or two really powerful Photon Arts over and over. As one-sided and boring as that seems, I'm just wondering if that's essentially true.

[fayt6]

Thanks everyone for the replies. Very much appreciated.



About that: is it even useful to use lots of different weapons like that? It seems like the most efficient killing route is to just spam one or two really powerful Photon Arts over and over. As one-sided and boring as that seems, I'm just wondering if that's essentially true.

the most efficient killing route would be situational.
like say the mission is true darkness? yea fortefighters would be like BOOOM jabagora or HAZAAA majjara or shaZaaam chikki xD lol an thats awesome for them
however a fighgunner would be like shoopDAwoop an do something else....
yea i have no idea what im trying to say...OH SNAP back to point

efficient is killing faster and all classes have a diffrent way of killing faster .... its not always spam the same stuff over and over again its about finding ur balance ya feel me?

[robinhood]

Yeah yeah SKADOOOSH I got ya. That makes sense. I guess now what I want to know is which class has the most variety in play style? I don't really find spamming one attack over and over with the same weapon to be all that entertaining. I want something that requires me to actually use my brain and think situationally like you are saying.

[darkante]

Yeah yeah SKADOOOSH I got ya. That makes sense. I guess now what I want to know is which class has the most variety in play style? I don't really find spamming one attack over and over with the same weapon to be all that entertaining. I want something that requires me to actually use my brain and think situationally like you are saying.

Fighgunner - Mix with Guns & Swords..Not so fragile.

Protranser - They too requires some good thinking with a other kind of variety but..i don´t recommend it at start as they are very fragile. Very fun at higher level.

Guntecher & Wartecher - Mix with magic & weaponry..also fragile. More like support character.


I would recommend FighGunner as a start it is the least fragile of the bunch with a good amount of variety. =)

[Silvx]

I usually set up my PA's on certain elements of weapons, like if i'm going to Parum i'll throw Dus robabo on my spear instead of Degga because there's lots of group mob spawns there, but if i'm going to sleeping Warriors i'll throw Daggas back on etc. Keeps my using all PA's and swapping around instead of using the same one and getting bored.

I can't bouch for gunner classes, probably gonna try one soon myself. Using B'duki Boa on my fortefighter has become quite often lately <.<; I think it's because it sounds cool though ^^;

[robinhood]

I see, thanks guys. Another question: When mobs are melee-resistant, do Slicers count as "melee" weapons or are they considered "ranged?" And are slicers good weapons to use? I used them all the time on my HUcast in PSO and I'm just wondering if they're still used in PSU.

[Magus_84]

I see, thanks guys. Another question: When mobs are melee-resistant, do Slicers count as "melee" weapons or are they considered "ranged?" And are slicers good weapons to use? I used them all the time on my HUcast in PSO and I'm just wondering if they're still used in PSU.

Use this to see immunities:

http://www.amesani.org/psu/db/enemy/properties.php

If there's no icon in the weapon column, it's resistant to that. For example, a Vahra's resistant to nothing.

Slicers count as melee. Slicers have good PAs, but they're not quite at the level of brokenness that PSO slicers got to. Well, the "spam Berserk/Charge on a Slicer" levels. Still good though.

[Dark Emerald EXE]

There are NO superior type or classes. They are all good IF you use them PROPERLY. Gunners does have more Acc. but less Atp. , more evp but less dfp and HP... not to count that with melee you can have all your weapons at 46-50%, only lasers do that for gunners. Plus a dus majarras combo will kill faster (but risker if you get hit), guns kill slower (but much less risk). So to me different way to play doesnt mean that way is superior or not.

This.

[-Morgan-]

ok now...we all know that acrofighters the best class a range-mag with a slicer putting up about 3.4k with chikki and the mag doing around 900 per enemy or more with effects and penetrate is enough.=]

[joefro]

I'd say just play with a group. If you have a gunner knocking the enemies down with a rifle(or a techer with nos spells) then the fighter can get his jabroga off. I hate the people who are like "teh gunmaster r the only goooood master class!!!!1!!11." I'm not saying gunmaster are bad but some, *some* can be the biggest leetist in the game.(Mostly because they can't handle getting good pecent and good grinded fighmaster weapons.


ok now...we all know that acrofighters the best class a range-mag with a slicer putting up about 3.4k with chikki and the mag doing around 900 per enemy or more with effects and penetrate is enough.=]
lol

[amtalx]

Are those pre-nerf Chikki numbers?

[fayt6]

nope i do around 1.5k on the first hit and then 2.3k on the second so his numbers are off and thats w/o a range mag..lol

[amtalx]

Ohhh, I see what he meant. I thought he was trying to say he was hitting each target for 3.4k with a single hit. Laser Cannons still make Chikki damage look pedestrian though. :p

[Kylie]

There are situations that call for gunners and situations that call for fighters. I don't think the difference in efficiency is really significant overall though, and I think everyone should play the style they want to play. Personally, bullets bore me. I don't like standing at a distance and shooting things that never change in appearance, so I don't particularly care if it's slightly better. I'm not even putting gunners down. I think it's nice to have one in most parties.

[-Morgan-]

Ohhh, I see what he meant. I thought he was trying to say he was hitting each target for 3.4k with a single hit. Laser Cannons still make Chikki damage look pedestrian though. :p

actually thats exactly wut i was saying lol i have a slicer of 50% 9+ grinds of each element and 3.5 is easily achieved plus its affordable for most cuz AF gear is pretty cheap


Edit: o holy crap i just realized i said chikki in my other posts it was late last night i was outa it sorry my bad i meant choutou lol and yes this IS after the nerf i got my numbers from when i just did charged puzzle s

[amtalx]

I don't see much Slicer usage these days so I could be wrong, but I'm very skeptical of your numbers. However, well done if you can actually pull down that much damage.

[Akaimizu]

Well, that's the funny thing. Unless I solo, I don't really consider the ability to dodge the big helpful thing you do in the party. When you do that, you aren't attacking/stunning/silencing, etc. However, in ways, certain traps and/or mobile weapons do help in the ability to dodge and perform a gunner task at the same time. However, often at the cost of max damage per second. Still, this is usually the problem and the part of much debate in these forums. A lot of folks talk about DPS, but for gunners it's really subjective of the overall situation. The moment you have to spend dodging around more, the moment (very quickly) the mobile weapons catch up in the damage+(status effect, or mob control) department.

Rifles did change up the game with the love they got recently. In a way, they add to the arsenal of being a Melee attacker's best friend and companion. The more the fighter can simply concentrate on just beating the enemies with uninterrupted Just Attacks, the faster the fight is just plain over. A gunner with the bullets to offer good support (or strategic trap placement) can basically turn a fighter into an unstoppable constant heavy damage machine.

It's always cool when you see a good plan come together (steals cigar from Hannibal). However, there are still some of the times where a gunner kind of lays a Jabroga of their own. *cough level 41+ elemental lasers*. Still, with enough enemies that do make situations unsafe to put away that rifle and pull out the lasers...it brings it back to the good ol' "I pin em, you stomp em" mechanic. Though at times, I do hope that the top attacking force-types do gain a few devastating attack techs to closely match the fighters, at least for some situations. The way the game feels now, it's almost like in the attack realm, you have fighters and FT/MF going for damage, and gunners as the main support for attacking. I guess techers are the masters of support from a health standpoint. But for those stripped of support, like the Master Force... I'd probably expect a similar damage output given they're not set up for much support. Not a complaint mind you, but an observation given how the strategic aspects of the game seem.

However, gunners are secretly strong in the game. Part of it is because nobody has any idea how to calculate damage coming from multiple attacks at the same time. A factor that certain classes may have access to. For instance. A gunner with a rifle may seem like nothing particularly special when they move around with a rifle since it hits one enemy at a time. However, lets say the enemies take to fire damage. If the same person runs in with a burn trap (igniting all the enemies at once), then starts going crazy with a SE 5 burn rifle, how much damage are they really doing? Especially as some monsters start taking the SE 5, the player is distributing the SE 5 love, and at the same time (barely slows their attack rate). Or perhaps worse. Does that, and then switches to a Laser Cannon.

A similar hard to calculate case comes to a Guntecher using even a not-too-popular aspect of their abilities (let's say they're human or newman). Throwing down a trap to burn, switching to a Wand that lobs level 21+ rocks at folks for maybe (1800+ points of damage if Diga --- 3K+ if Nozdiga), all the while a triple fire fire Ranged Mag is firing at enemies, the whole time with a rather high rate of landing (or restarting the burn), plus tapping extra damage on its own. Case in point, it may be nothing compared to a Laser across non-bullet resistant enemies. However, reaching that with a shotgun alone is a hard thing to come by, for that class. When you fight, doing damage like 2 or 3 individuals....damage and/or helpful combined effects, kind of sneak up on you. To calculate true numbers, you really need to record it, and analyze it later. You'd have to be Rainman to catch all the details while playing.

This is where I think a lot of people get a bit lost. Maybe to the point where the amount of true balance issues is tricky to figure out. Especially since the optimal weapon for each type of scenario, for a gunner, changes a lot. And not all scenarios allow the gunner to do anywhere near their best damage.

[-Morgan-]

well an example of every class being as good as eachother is the bonus carnival mission u tend to do better with a gunner and a good melee char to save him if u have a fighmaster fighgunner or even acrofighter the TEAM is good gunners usually cast so they cant get hit alot but if they got an AF in the front blocking almost nonstop or a fighmaster tornado dancing they go good together it all also depends on the gear and the player id say

[Akaimizu]

True enough. Good balanced level design, particularly if kept so that each of those types have reason for people to run them, goes a long way. One can mess up that balance if the levels geared for too much of just one type are the only desirable levels to go through. For drop items found, for monetary, for experience, for drop rate of these items, and for great justice. (Ok, that last one not so much a balancer, but it's just great to say it.)

[Karazykid]

3 Fighmasters and a Protranser.

Ya got Jabroken and tornado dance spamming all over the place, ex traps exploding everywhere and lasers and grenades doing their thing.

[EMPYREAN]

3 Fighmasters and a Protranser.

Ya got Jabroken and tornado dance spamming all over the place, ex traps exploding everywhere and lasers and grenades doing their thing.

exept lazers and granades dont hit cuz jabogra and tornado tosses the enemys all over the place

[Spartan Law]

I don't see much Slicer usage these days so I could be wrong, but I'm very skeptical of your numbers. However, well done if you can actually pull down that much damage.

With his change of PA listed to Choutu that is EASILY possible. My m beast FF with a hikec/c (best A rank slicer imo) and an LKK I've been breaking 5.6k/5.7k on that last combo of Choutu (when it doesn't miss lol). 50% 10/10 9* probably out damage the PA damage boost a Hikec/c gets too so I wouldn't be astonised if people could break 6k. Choutu isn't the easiest PA to aim but that last hit packs a punch and a half and goes much further than it appears to aswell! :-)

[DarkEliteRico]

well an example of every class being as good as eachother is the bonus carnival mission u tend to do better with a gunner and a good melee char to save him if u have a fighmaster fighgunner or even acrofighter the TEAM is good gunners usually cast so they cant get hit alot but if they got an AF in the front blocking almost nonstop or a fighmaster tornado dancing they go good together it all also depends on the gear and the player id say

stop to take a breath once in a while, one long run on makes it quiet hard to fully understand your train of though.

[MSAksion]

If you turn it around - make the argument are hunters better than rangers the answer is YES in a way.

A Gun can not launch an enemy like 3 times the way RISING CRUSH can.
A Gun can't massively damage the same monster dozens of times in 3 seconds the way DUS MAJARRA or Anga Jabroken or Renzan can.
A Gun can't knock an enemy down as fast as Anga Dugredda.

Guns can't really do what a sharp stabby thing can do - high damage in a short time at HIGH risk to the Melee user.

What Guns REALLY are for and do a GREAT job of doing so are;

1) taking down squadrons of tinys (badira rats) - shotgun and laser work wonders.
2) Inflicting status on dangerous enemies quickly - nothing beats rifle in this.
3) picking off the straggler weaklnigs who break from their squadron.
4) helping a teammate by adding extra damage as they cut you shoot. Enemies die faster.
5) Setting traps. ppl forget about traps lately.

I think a hunter up front can deal with the big monsters and a ranger and a Force (YAY support artillery) can take on squadrons of tiny to medium size monsters.

Close Range - Hunter - Fights Jarba
Long Range - Ranger - picks off badiras
Medium Range - Force - healing and debuffing and annihliating everything with NOSDiga. its true - i spam it alot.

[Akaimizu]

Actually, Crossbows beat rifles in inflicting status effects for mid to smaller mobs. There's no weapon in the game that SEs faster than Crossbows (except traps). It's tough for a rifle to land SEs across an entire group, but crossbows do it with little effort. For example,. a crossbow can shut down a group of dangerous attack-upped Go Varas real quick, allowing everybody else full reign on them. (It's a near guarranteed group SE lander, if you don't have the traps for it, with a relatively decent amount of damage)

However, for big enemies requiring SE4 and above, the crossbows lose out, but that's what rifles are for. :) Well, except for cases where the mob has multiple hit locations and grenades/shotguns rule the day. (But using the rifle to stagger the mob for the fighter is just as good of a strategy. And for gunners who can only use shotguns and not grenades, perhaps a better one if you find that getting close with a shotgun is always getting you knocked away. Especially since shotguns are bad at pinning down enemies (for the ease of others to hit them), and are fairly poor at landing SE.) Traps are also great. However, you mainly use them only on levels where the monsters are tough enough to use them on. On the toughest runs, the traps are a great ally.