% vs ATP

[Razelchen]

I really need your help and insight. I am not a number cruncher so I have a hard time to figure out what to use.

I have Twin DB Sword grinded to 7+ (Att. 461) with 24 % dark element and a Heavy Twin (not grinded yet with (Att. 338) with 42 % dark element. Which is the better one vs dark enemies? And when does + Att. outweight %s? I have no idea how to figure it out.

I just replaced my low % S-Rank Palette on my Fortefighter (mainly 10 - 20%) with higher % A-Rank weapons (9 Stars, mainly 36% - 46%). Was this a mistake?

Thanks for your help.

Raz

[Arada]

To compare 2 weapons of the same time, there's a simple formula:

ATP * (1 + <element>) were element is a value between 0 and 1 (ex: 30% = 0.30)

So for your weapons:

DB Sword: 431 * (1 + 0.24) = 461 * 1.24 = 571.64
Heavy Twins: 338 * (1 + 0.42) = 479.96

The higher, the better. You got your answer.

And replacing S ranks by A ranks with higher attributes is certainly a good idea. But not all the time so be careful.

[Magician]

I really need your help and insight. I am not a number cruncher so I have a hard time to figure out what to use.

I have Twin DB Sword grinded to 7+ (Att. 461) with 24 % dark element and a Heavy Twin (not grinded yet with (Att. 338) with 42 % dark element. Which is the better one vs dark enemies? And when does + Att. outweight %s? I have no idea how to figure it out.

I just replaced my low % S-Rank Palette on my Fortefighter (mainly 10 - 20%) with higher % A-Rank weapons (9 Stars, mainly 36% - 46%). Was this a mistake?

Thanks for your help.

Raz

DB Sword: 461 x .24 = 110 + 461 = 571
Heavy Twin: 338 x .42 = 141 + 338 = 479

The math says that the DB Sword should be doing more damage against all but dark enemies.

Try them out in a c-rank mission and test it out.

[kejen]

But there is also the atp of your character, not just the atp of the sword. 1500 base atp let say. Then we have a sword with 600 atp 24%, and then a sword 500 atp 42%.

(1500+600) * 1.24 = 2604
(1500+500) * 1.42 = 2840

Then there is also more multipliers with the photon arts.

Higher percent weapons are just about always better. You did a smart move. The only thing is the A ranks have lower acc and PP, but the extra damage you will be doing is worth it.

[Razelchen]

Thank you guys, that was really helpfull.
My char is a 150 Female Beast FF (20) btw.

[Magician]

But there is also the atp of your character, not just the atp of the sword. 1500 base atp let say. Then we have a sword with 600 atp 24%, and then a sword 500 atp 42%.

(1500+600) * 1.24 = 2604
(1500+500) * 1.42 = 2840

Then there is also more multipliers with the photon arts.

Higher percent weapons are just about always better. You did a smart move. The only thing is the A ranks have lower acc and PP, but the extra damage you will be doing is worth it.

For as long as I've been playing psu, that's the one thing I never tested.

Is the elemental percentage of a weapon added to the weapon's base att or the total atp of your character? If the elemental percentage is added to only the weapon then the DB Sword should be doing more damage. However, if it's added to the total atp, then yes the Twin Heavy should do more damage.

Test them both out, Razelchen, and post the results.

[Arada]

But there is also the atp of your character, not just the atp of the sword. 1500 base atp let say. Then we have a sword with 600 atp 24%, and then a sword 500 atp 42%.

(1500+600) * 1.24 = 2604
(1500+500) * 1.42 = 2840

Then there is also more multipliers with the photon arts.

Higher percent weapons are just about always better. You did a smart move. The only thing is the A ranks have lower acc and PP, but the extra damage you will be doing is worth it.

I know the ATP of the character is added to make actual damage. But I just gave him a simple formula to be able to compare 2 weapons.

The actual formula to calculate damage just isn't the same and is more complex. As he said he wasn't a number crunsher, I just gave the simpliest way to compare.

[Razelchen]

Thanks guys, I am just depressed that the DBs with so low % are actually better than weapons with 40%+

Maybe I try my luck grinding those Heavy Twins.

[San Anto]

ignore all the above, % is faaarr more important than atp thats how okanohs out damage bil de axe and ank buti so easily my god atp is mostly useless almost negligible.

[mvffin]

The only situation where weapon ATP would significantly overpower elemental % is with Agito Repcas, because every grind really does matter. OR if you're fighting neutral enemies, where ele % doesn't matter at all (but how many neutral enemies do you fight on a daily basis?)

For the most part, you're always better off with higher ele % than you are with higher atp.

[Razelchen]

Yeah but when does that kick in? 30%+ or 40%+?
Well I guess I am just going for 40%+ to be safe.

[FOnewearl-Lina]

The ATP listed for a weapon is only it's max value, some weapons for example Bil De Axe have high ATP variance whereas element % is static.

[Razelchen]

Oh true FOnewearl-Lina, I forgot about that.

[valleycat]

So,, what is the actual formula?

[Razelchen]

I did another test yesterday:

Melton's Skillet Set 328 Att. 36 % Ground vs Heavy Twins 338 Att. 46 % Ground

Field: Lightning Beast S
Me: 150 Beast Fortefighter 19

Difference in dmg was a whooping ~ 40

Really dissapointing, I mean the Heavy Twins have 10 Att and 10% more element. Not sure if it's really worth to spend the extra money on 40%+ weapons :(

Am I missing here something?

[valleycat]

I did another test yesterday:

Melton's Skillet Set 328 Att. 36 % Ground vs Heavy Twins 338 Att. 46 % Ground

Field: Lightning Beast S
Me: 150 Beast Fortefighter 19

Difference in dmg was a whooping ~ 40

Really dissapointing, I mean the Heavy Twins have 10 Att and 10% more element. Not sure if it's really worth to spend the extra money on 40%+ weapons :(

Am I missing here something?
it sounds like you not hitting lightning monsters

[Magician]

it sounds like you not hitting lightning monsters

[OT] That's the funniest thing I've read all day, thank you.

Back on topic.

Razelchen, if the damage difference between both weapons is only fourty damage then it appears that elemental percentages do only affect a weapon's attack power and is not calculated with a character's overall atp.

[Arada]

Oh, yes, overall ATP (Character + Weapon + Armor ATP Bonus if applicable + Unit ATP bonus if applicable) are affected by weapon attribute rate.

I'll just use the Attack formula to show with a character with 1200 ATP against an enemy with 500 DFP with a basic attack (against lightning enemies)

Melton stuff: ((1500 + 328 ) * (1+ (0.75 * 0.36)) - 500) / 5 = (1828 * 1.27 - 500) / 5 = 364
Heavy twins: ((1500 + 338 ) * (1+ (0.75 * 0.46)) - 500) / 5 = (1838 * 1.345 - 500) / 5 = 394

Difference: 30

The difference is higher if you add the PA modifiers but you will not get a much larger gap. Also keep in mind that there is variance not taken into account here.

[Libram]

You guys should disable smilies in your posts. It's getting a bit confusing.

[Razelchen]

Ok I understand that, thanks for the input. But basically this means 36 % is nearly as good as 46 %, right? And on top of that much cheaper.

I wonder if I should've sticked to my Twin DB's sword (7/10 with 20%).....

And here I was and thought more % is always better, especially when it's a gap of +10%.

[Razelchen]

Another test

4/10 Heavy Twin, 353 Att. 46% fire vs 7/10 Twin DB Sabers, 461 Att. 20%
(Event Ice Blast Stage)

The Heavy Twin has clearly the upper hand here though the att of the DBs are much higher.

I remember that Sega said something about weapon % bonus for Weapons over 30%, but can't remember what they said excactly. So might be that the differences over 30% aren't as big as I expected but are if under 30%.....

[mll]

They changed the % at the end of v1 so that all % are 3/4 the shown number.
IE
10% = 7.5%
50% = 37.5%
So it affects higher percentages a lot more than lower percentages but it affects all %'s.

Also re your earlier test 40 damage a hit every hit will add up fast, particularly with a weapon like twin sabers that has lots and lots of low damage hits. Cross Hurricane hits 25 times total over the course of the combo so thats a 1000 extra damage each combo. Its not a huge difference but it'll add up over the course of a run.
Grab an axe or a weapon with high atp if you can and you'll start seeing a much bigger difference in each individual hit.
(Also Twin DB's sabers have godly ATP for a-rank sabers, its one of the few weapons whose ATP will start offsetting other sabers attribute advantage - its the exception to the rule).

[Libram]

The percentage calculations were changed a while back when AOI was released as well as character stats. A 50% weapon is relatively as strong as it was pre-AOI, but low percent and neutral weapons are a bit more effective.

That being said, my 34% :light: Raikasobrac does more damage against dark creatures than my 16% :light: Rucar.

[shookems]

or you could just test both weapons and see which does more damage.

[Razelchen]

That's what I did (see my post). In that case the Heavy Twins were better than the Twin DB Swords.

[kejen]

Are you testing just with a normal hit? With PA's you will see more since a 200% PA that 40 will turn into 80. And a 5 hit combo that 80 is now 400 over the course of a few seconds. Then across the complete level you're doing 1000's and 1000's more damage.

Higher % is always better. But use common sense. A 50% C rank won't be better than a 32% S rank.

[DreXxiN]

Are you testing just with a normal hit? With PA's you will see more since a 200% PA that 40 will turn into 80. And a 5 hit combo that 80 is now 400 over the course of a few seconds. Then across the complete level you're doing 1000's and 1000's more damage.

Higher % is always better. But use common sense. A 50% C rank won't be better than a 32% S rank.

Actually....

[Razelchen]

Are you testing just with a normal hit? With PA's you will see more since a 200% PA that 40 will turn into 80. And a 5 hit combo that 80 is now 400 over the course of a few seconds. Then across the complete level you're doing 1000's and 1000's more damage.

Higher % is always better. But use common sense. A 50% C rank won't be better than a 32% S rank.

True just trying to find out the "sweet spot" for S vs A Rank Weapons.
Thanks for all the input guys.

[Hiero_Glyph]

Are you testing just with a normal hit? With PA's you will see more since a 200% PA that 40 will turn into 80. And a 5 hit combo that 80 is now 400 over the course of a few seconds. Then across the complete level you're doing 1000's and 1000's more damage.

Higher % is always better. But use common sense. A 50% C rank won't be better than a 32% S rank.

I'm fairly certain a 10/10 Rappy Tip (3*, 300 Att, 50% Light) will out damage a 10/10 Deva-zashi (10*, 479 Att, 32% Light). So much for common sense.

[mvffin]

quick, someone who has both of those weapons take screenies. I want to see how much difference it is. = 0

[Hiero_Glyph]

quick, someone who has both of those weapons take screenies. I want to see how much difference it is. = 0

I guess you could always substitute a 8/9 grinded (473/483 Att) Blumier for the Deva-zashi as long as the % was correct. It would make for a very interesting test as I doubt an 18% element advantage is simply negated by ~180 Att.

[Arada]

Well the Blumier/Deva-Zashi remains stronger, if you use the maths.

In that case, the gap is very wide and the Rappy Tip wouldn't even beat the blumier/deva-zashi if it was neutral (still per the maths).

And I'm still not taking variance or PAs into account.

[Hiero_Glyph]

Well the Blumier/Deva-Zashi remains stronger, if you use the maths.

In that case, the gap is very wide and the Rappy Tip wouldn't even beat the blumier/deva-zashi if it was neutral (still per the maths).

And I'm still not taking variance or PAs into account.

Huh? The comparison was a 50% C-rank versus a 32% S-rank, where did you get neutral from? I noted the possible comparison and I am curious to see the in-game results. I doubt that 18% is beaten by 180 attack due to the damage multiplier and the high base ATP value. I'm still not sure what 'math' you are utilizing but I would love to see you explain your numbers (that you did not provide). In any case, let us see your math including the formula you used to calculate the damage.

[Arada]

I made a guide (http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151382) with all the formulas and the stats.

I'm using the formulas in that guide. Note that I should probably really work on presentation.

I have done the maths again I seems I was wrong earlier. I just don't know what happened. Strictly using the formulas again, here's the result:

============

In the exemples from the guide, I use a Male Beast (lvl 140) ForteFighter (lvl 20) with a base ATP of 2204. Eventhough ForteFighter can't use S rank Daggers, I'll just use that for my exemple 'cause I can't find the stats of a beast FighGunner.

I'll just input some exemples with the Rappy Tip 10/10 and the Deva-Zashi 10/10 with the stats above (Rappy Tip 50%, 300ATP and Deva-Zashi 32%, 479ATP). I'll do it on an random dark enemy with 220 DFP (DFP doesn't really matter anyway).

Normal attacks (PA mod = 100%):

RT: (((2204 + 300) * 1) * (1 + 0.75 * 0.5) - 220) / 5 = (2504 * 1.375 - 220) / 5 = 644.6
DZ: (((2204 + 479) * 1) * (1 + 0.75 * 0.32) - 220) / 5 = (2683 * 1.24 - 220) / 5 = 621.384

=> Rappy Tip is stronger.

I'll now use Shunbu Shuren-Zan as the dagger PA (PA mod: 200% at first combo, 400% at second combo, using a lvl 40 PA taken from the PA stat comparison on PSO-World):

Note: Yes I took the strongest of the Dagger PA, it strikes people more when the gap is even bigger ;)

1st combo:

RT: (((2204 + 300) * 2) * (1 + 0.75 * 0.5) - 220) / 5 = (5008 * 1.375 - 220) / 5 = 1333.2
DZ: (((2204 + 479) * 2) * (1 + 0.75 * 0.32) - 220) / 5 = (5366 * 1.24 - 220) / 5 = 1286.768

2nd combo:

RT: (((2204 + 300) * 4) * (1 + 0.75 * 0.5) - 220) / 5 = (10016 * 1.375 - 220) / 5 = 2710.4
DZ: (((2204 + 479) * 4) * (1 + 0.75 * 0.32) - 220) / 5 = (10732 * 1.24 - 220) / 5 = 2617.536

So the Rappy Tip is making that much more damage.

Note that variance is still not taken into account.

==================================

And thanks to Hiero_Glyph who forced me to redo the maths and correct myself.

[Hiero_Glyph]

It should also be noted that you did not include any ATP from an arm unit or possibly armor. Both of these get added into the total ATP as well. What this will do is decrease the overall effect of the additional 179 attack of the S-rank as now both of them have a higher base ATP that will be multiplied by the elemental % as well as the PA's attack modifier.

Another note is that if the base ATP is low enough, the S-rank will deal more damage simply because its extra attack will become a larger factor as it is multipled. I'm not sure how low the total ATP value needs to be in order to accomplish this, but at lower levels (or total base ATP) the weapon's ATP becomes a much larger factor.

Nice job on the equations, I just wanted to make sure that you were running the numbers entirely before jumping to any conclusions.

[Arada]

Actually seeing the low difference (~13) on the normal attack, I think it wouldn't take that much lower base ATP to have the Deva-Zashi deal higher damage (and I'm talking about the normal attack only).

I believe that if I take a Beast FighGunner with the same levels, I would get a different result (but if you add a Lumirus/Kaos Knight in there it might shift again).

Anyway, you're basically right, at lower levels, the S rank would make higher damage.

[Zael]

Here's an excerpt from a guide I once wrote.

First of all, "base damage" means the damage calculate before enemy's DFP modifies the actual damage taken. Enemy DFP reduces your damage by their DFP/5. Also, base damage assumes your weapon hits for the highest possible damage in it's variable ATP range.

Okay, first you take your character's base ATP and add it to your weapon's ATP and add them up.

For example, I'll use a Female Cast Fortefighter and a Muktrand.

Female Cast FF 130/20 ATP: 1798
Muktrand ATP: 676

Total ATP (game calls it ATT) = 2474

Damage is equal to total ATP / 5. So that means a single hit from a neutral Muktrand would hit for 495 damage to an enemy with 0 DFP.

Now let's throw in percents. The actual percent modifier is the percent shown on the weapon, multiplied by 3/4.
This is proven in my video here: http://youtube.com/watch?v=R6Txz7Z0X38
(The formulas are on the video description on the actual youtube site)

So you take the percent and multiply it by .75 to get the modifier. The modifier applies to your Total ATP, not just the weapon's ATP. That means your character's ATP is also taken into account.

Let's assume the same scenario as above, but that spear is 50% vs. an enemy weak to it.

Total ATP w/ Neutral Spear = 2474
50% * .75 = .375 (50% weapon is actually 37.5%)
2474 * 1.375 = 3402 Total ATP of 50% Muktrand vs. opposite element.