A few Gunner Questions

[AnimeBoy33]

1.Which one is better to use Twin Handgun or Rifle?

2.Whats good to carry as a GunMaster(Was thinking of x2,Rifles/Twin Handgun,Shotgun,and Laser Cannons

[Tetsaru]

Rifle, hands down. Better range, higher power, higher elemental %'s, higher accuracy, stronger status effects, AND knockdown at high levels.

Many people get fooled into thinking twin handguns are useful because you can strafe with them... but what's the point if you can negate your enemies' movements with knockdown in the first place?

Finally, if you use twin handguns to evade enemy attacks, DON'T. You can move and see a lot easier when you don't have the camera locked behind you, and you aren't restricted to firing in a straight line (not being able to rotate while strafing is just more dumbassery on Segac's part imo). Find a sniping point and go to town with your rifle from afar, or if the enemies are close, rush them like you would with a melee character and blast away with your shotgun at point-blank range. These methods are a lot faster and more effective than twin handguns imo, but everyone has their own playing style.

As far as my GM pallete goes, I use two rifles, two shotguns, and two laser cannons, adjusting bullet PA's as necessary.

[Hiero_Glyph]

Twin Handguns serve one purpose, to help transition from Rifle range to Shotgun range. Their damage is higher than Rifles, however, so they can be useful against certain bosses where Shotguns are not effective (De Rol Le while the raft approaches, Mother Brain's head, etc.). They easily rank last in terms of a Gunmaster's arsenal.

[hyperacute]

Twin handguns are basically the only GM wep that give you some mobility but I find them the least useful weapon of the 4 you can use. Rifle not only has range but the bullets will stunlock enemies once they hit level 31+ and can eventually inflict level 5 status effects. Never underestimate the damage a level 5 burn will do on larger creatures (over 7k per tick on the S Rank SEED-Magashi things in the carnival mission for example).

My GM palette is usually a variation on 2 shotguns, 2 rifles, a laser and a set of twin handguns. Will sometimes swap the laser out for a 3rd rifle if I feel like it. More often than not, the twin handguns are for using Twin Mayalee (for what it's worth!) when the party lacks a techer.

[Hrith]

Twin Handguns serve one purpose, to help transition from Rifle range to Shotgun range.I fail to see this as a purpose at all.


Their damage is higher than Rifleslol, it has been proven countless times twin handguns are weaker than rifles; they are on Fortegunner, and even more on Gunmaster.

The mobility twin handguns offer is pointless, not only because of the knockdown effect rifles offer after Lv31, as the posters above pointed out, but also -- and that is an even better reason -- because if you are at rifle range and using first-person view, you can do an even better job than strafing would have allowed you to.

Combine the two (rifle-range FPS and knockdown), and you have a weapon which obliterates twin handguns in every possible way.

I have every twin handgun elemental bullet at Lv50, and Twin Mayalee at Lv50, too, and it's very clear they are all useless.

My GM palette is, 99% of the time: rifle x2, laser x2, shotgun x2; and I can't see things getting better than that, and twin handguns factually make GM weaker.


Of course, this topic is "which do you prefer?", not "which is better?", so we're off-topic, or at least I am >_>;

[darkante]

Rifle in all situation i can make use of it without needing to run around too much.
You don´t wanna stand still when several techniques gets thrown at your face.

1-2 is easy with Rifle, more is just asking to get your ass beaten down.
Especially if it´s a little room and the enemies is a bit too lethal to mow down close range. Not too often it happens, but it can.

I see Twin Handgun as only a back-up weapon, but a fun one at that.

[Magician]

1.Which one is better to use Twin Handgun or Rifle?

2.Whats good to carry as a GunMaster(Was thinking of x2,Rifles/Twin Handgun,Shotgun,and Laser Cannons

1. Rifles are better because of the knockdown bonus when bullets hit 31+, allowing you to control small to medium mobs and stun-lock a number of large mobs. They also received the biggest cooldown/speed increase when gunmaster was released, making their dps slightly better than twin handguns. Twin Handguns, on the other hand, received the worst cooldown/speed increase. Of the four weapons available to a gunmaster, twin handguns have the worst dps.

2. 2x Shotgun, 2x Laser Cannon and 1x Rifle is the standard as most missions have enemies of two elements and one large enemy. Basic strategy is to use the laser cannon on mobs of three enemies or more and then the shotgun with two enemies or fewer remaining, and use the rifle to knockdown tech-using mobs or stun-lock large enemies. Having a third shotgun in your inventory for missions containing enemies with three elements, or a third laser cannon for mayalee prism (to blowback large mobs that cannot be knocked down by rifles, e.g. gainezeros) is also a common practice.

[stukasa]

1.Which one is better to use Twin Handgun or Rifle?

2.Whats good to carry as a GunMaster(Was thinking of x2,Rifles/Twin Handgun,Shotgun,and Laser Cannons
1. I *prefer* Twin Handguns (they're more fun to use and I like the mobility) but if you only care about being practical, Rifles are more useful (once you get them to 31+).

2. Rifle x2, Laser x2, Shotgun x1, Twin Handgun x1. It depends on the mission (sometimes you may want 2 Shotguns and 1 Laser, for example), but I think that's a pretty well-rounded palette.

[Darius_Drake]

I can't help but bring up the point about the abilities the rifle bullets gain at level 31. Before you get your rifle bullet to 31 it can be a tough decision, but once your rifle bullet hits 31 the rifle will then become your best friend if it wasn't already. The first time you stun lock a large creature it will be over. The decision will be officially made.

[Smidge204]

The only time twins are really, truly useful is when up against a group of mobile enemies that have ranged attacks. For example: Deljaban (Megid) or Vanda Orga (Foie).

I very much prefer the aforementioned "sniper" style of play, and if there is a safe spot to stand I'll definitely use it. But! Sometimes you're in a small room with a half dozen Deljaban and a rifle just isn't the safest thing.

This is why my Twin Rising is at level 50 and all my other Twin skill are between 20 and 30. :D

As for palette, Mine is currently optimized for bullet leveling: Three rifles, three shotguns. Normally I'd have two rifles, two shotguns and two laser cannons (with a spare rifle and shotgun in inventory). The Twins stay in storage unless I think I'll actually need them.
=Smidge=

[Hiero_Glyph]

I fail to see this as a purpose at all.

lol, it has been proven countless times twin handguns are weaker than rifles; they are on Fortegunner, and even more on Gunmaster.

The mobility twin handguns offer is pointless, not only because of the knockdown effect rifles offer after Lv31, as the posters above pointed out, but also -- and that is an even better reason -- because if you are at rifle range and using first-person view, you can do an even better job than strafing would have allowed you to.

Combine the two (rifle-range FPS and knockdown), and you have a weapon which obliterates twin handguns in every possible way.

I have every twin handgun elemental bullet at Lv50, and Twin Mayalee at Lv50, too, and it's very clear they are all useless.

My GM palette is, 99% of the time: rifle x2, laser x2, shotgun x2; and I can't see things getting better than that, and twin handguns factually make GM weaker.


Of course, this topic is "which do you prefer?", not "which is better?", so we're off-topic, or at least I am >_>;

The purpose is for time attacks as it will save you a few seconds.

As for the rifles, were these tests done when we knew that level 41 rifle bullets fire slower than 31, which fire slower than 21, which fire slower than 11, which fire slower than 1? Also note that there is no decrease in firing rate for twin handguns.

As I clearly stated in my post the usefulness is against bosses as they cannot be status effected or knocked down. As a result, if you are unable to shotgun the boss effectively, the twins are indeed superior to rifles in terms of damage. I would love to see your tests disprove this as it is numerically impossible.

A rifle does the job well, but twins are superior in a few very specific situations. I am not discounting the overall effectiveness of a rifle and if you note the results of the poll, not a single vote has been cast for twins, including my own. I just want to make sure that players are aware of the function of twins and when they do serve a purpose.

If you want to try and disprove my points then by all means try but we both know that I am correct when it comes to these situations.

[biggabertha]

As I clearly stated in my post the usefulness is against bosses as they cannot be status effected or knocked down. As a result, if you are unable to shotgun the boss effectively, the twins are indeed superior to rifles in terms of damage. I would love to see your tests disprove this as it is numerically impossible.

Hmmm.....

How fast can you kill the Dimmagolus with Twin Handguns?

How much faster can you do it with a Rifle?

What about Maggas Maggahna and Adahna Degahna?

All three with a Gunmaster, of course, since Fortegunner can use a Spear for the bosses when they collapse and a Guntecher can use a Saber of some... sort...


The only time I see Twin Handguns beating out a Rifle is against worm bosses because your area to run around in, is fairly cramped.

But since Rifles has a higher DPS than Twin Handguns, I'd still go for using a Rifle on those Worm bosses - besides, I can stand on the opposite end of the platform and even shoot it's "legs" when it closes in from waaaaay far away until it comes into Shotgun range.

I dunno... Twin Handguns just seem to look cool now and maybe do the Matrix effect of dual wielding, people like them.

Besides, if you're at full Rifle range, you can see whatever's being thrown at you and have lots of time to get out of the way. Wether or not you have the reaction time to do so, is another matter altogether...

[jmm22msu]

I personally like twin handguns, at level 30 I hit for 700 plus twice can dodge pretty much everything. Rifles are better at 31+ but I enjoy the look of twin handguns most of all

[Hiero_Glyph]

Hmmm.....

How fast can you kill the Dimmagolus with Twin Handguns?

How much faster can you do it with a Rifle?

What about Maggas Maggahna and Adahna Degahna?

All three with a Gunmaster, of course, since Fortegunner can use a Spear for the bosses when they collapse and a Guntecher can use a Saber of some... sort...


The only time I see Twin Handguns beating out a Rifle is against worm bosses because your area to run around in, is fairly cramped.

But since Rifles has a higher DPS than Twin Handguns, I'd still go for using a Rifle on those Worm bosses - besides, I can stand on the opposite end of the platform and even shoot it's "legs" when it closes in from waaaaay far away until it comes into Shotgun range.

I dunno... Twin Handguns just seem to look cool now and maybe do the Matrix effect of dual wielding, people like them.

Besides, if you're at full Rifle range, you can see whatever's being thrown at you and have lots of time to get out of the way. Wether or not you have the reaction time to do so, is another matter altogether...

Does it really take that long to swap weapons when an enemy comes within twin handgun range? Just as I previously noted about the raft when fighting De Rol Le, the twins have an advantage in terms of damage in certain situations. I rarely use them to be honest, but there are situations where they will increase your damage over using a rifle. Don't misunderstand me, I am not saying to use twins all of the time, simply that there are situations where twins can deal superior damage to rifles as range is negligible.

It should be noted that if you are at full rifle range and you need to relocate you must stop firing to do so; twins do not suffer this sort of penalty. So although their range is less, you can keep firing even while you dodge. Again, twins are not for the majority of situations, but there are times when using twins instead of a rifle is an actual advantage for a Gunmaster.

Twins rank last in a gunmaster's arsenal but they still have their uses. Maybe once we get some S-ranks that are substantially better than A-rank twins handguns they will have a more defined role.

EDIT: I'm curious how you all think that Rifles have a higher DPS than Twins if range is not a factor?

[Skyly]

Can anyone explain what DPS is?

[Magician]

Can anyone explain what DPS is?

Damage per second.

[LeynasMoon]

My vote would be pretty biased and lopsided. I have several rifle bullets that are beyond level 31+, but not 1 Twin Handgun bullet just at level 30.
Maybe that speaks for itself? To be more precise, Rifles are almost like a support weapon that I use for my party's safety. The long range, high elemental percentage, high status effect rate, and stun locking of a bullet in the 31+ level area are my way of keeping my party safe from enemies of all shapes, fighting styles, elements, etc, save for the big bosses. Ideally, a rifler can keep some of the worst enemies out there from doing very much damage to your team, if any damage to your team at all. It feels very good to stun lock and burn a Kagajibara to the point where it dies without having performed a single attack on anyone. That's how I know I did my job well as a gunner cuz I felt all warm and tingly in my heart.

Twin Handguns seem to be more of a defensive weapon for the gunner, allowing you to keep your distance from the enemy while continuously pumping them with gunfire. This offers very little support for your team, however, when compared to the several positive abilities of rifle bullets. It could be a way of repositioning yourself to a safe area without losing the ability to fire while moving, which a rifle won't allow us to do, and then you can take the rifle out and put the real pressure on the foe(s). This is a way of drawing aggro to you and away from the other players, so that is a supportive factor of the twins. Albeit a minute one.

Maybe there's something I just don't understand about Twin Handguns yet, but Rifles are much better for gunners to use, in my opinion. I would have liked to have kept Grenade Launchers instead of Twin Handguns as a Gumaster but that's a whole other subject entirely.

[Kylie]

Even in appearance, I think rifles are better. I mean, I love twin handguns because they remind me of Lara Croft (see: sig), but I love the way rifles are held. >_> Rifles are also superior in combat as far as I've seen.

[Hrith]

The purpose is for time attacks as it will save you a few seconds.Not really, twin handguns are weaker than rifles.
Even a Guld & Milla 10/10 was weaker when compared to Rattlesnac 10/10 (and Japanese players have Killer Elite, too). So your Battlestopper 10/10 (I'd assume that's what you're using) stands no chance.

Even if twin handguns had a damage advantage, the range and accuracy advantages rifles have would still put them on top.


If you want to try and disprove my points then by all means try but we both know that I am correct when it comes to these situations.And yet I did, easily.

I don't know to which extent rifles fire slower every 10 levels, since I have always had all eight PAs capped with every PA update, but Gunmaster does fire Lv50 rifles faster than Fortegunner does Lv40 ones nevertheless, 132 vs 111.

As for twin handguns, it's 80(x2) on Fortegunner vs 100(x2) on Gunmaster.

The increase is proportionally higher for twin handguns, that is true, but seeing how rifles gained much more ATP and element % between Lv40 and 50, these remain ahead of twin handguns, and actually even moreso than on Fortegunner.

Guld & Milla will shrink the gap, for sure, but even this overpowered set of twin handguns is not enough to put the latters on top, in terms of DPS.

To conclude, I think the example you have chosen to defend twin handguns speaks against them; the only strong point (and a null one, IMO) of twin handguns is mobility, namely strafing, but against monsters such as Dimmagolus, Magas Maggahna, De Rol Le, etc. strafing is useless, and range (i.e. not wasting time running after the boss until you are in range) is the key to shorter fights.

[Hiero_Glyph]

Not really, twin handguns are weaker than rifles.
Even a Guld & Milla 10/10 was weaker when compared to Rattlesnac 10/10 (and Japanese players have Killer Elite, too). So your Battlestopper 10/10 (I'd assume that's what you're using) stands no chance.

Even if twin handguns had a damage advantage, the range and accuracy advantages rifles have would still put them on top.

And yet I did, easily.

I don't know to which extent rifles fire slower every 10 levels, since I have always had all eight PAs capped with every PA update, but Gunmaster does fire Lv50 rifles faster than Fortegunner does Lv40 ones nevertheless, 132 vs 111.

As for twin handguns, it's 80(x2) on Fortegunner vs 100(x2) on Gunmaster.

The increase is proportionally higher for twin handguns, that is true, but seeing how rifles gained much more ATP and element % between Lv40 and 50, these remain ahead of twin handguns, and actually even moreso than on Fortegunner.

Guld & Milla will shrink the gap, for sure, but even this overpowered set of twin handguns is not enough to put the latters on top, in terms of DPS.

To conclude, I think the example you have chosen to defend twin handguns speaks against them; the only strong point (and a null one, IMO) of twin handguns is mobility, namely strafing, but against monsters such as Dimmagolus, Magas Maggahna, De Rol Le, etc. strafing is useless, and range (i.e. not wasting time running after the boss until you are in range) is the key to shorter fights.

Check out this thread: http://boards2.sega.com/psu_board/viewtopic.php?t=98478

If you look at the damage numbers, twins are dealing 1,500+ per shot while rifles deal 2,200+ per shot. Now when you double the shots of the twin handguns, the twins are ahead by 800 per shot. Per your own numbers this translates to 132 shots per minute * 2,200+ damage or 290,400+ total damage for rifles, versus 100 shots per minute * 2 * 1,500+ damage or 300,000+ damage for twins.

I'm still not sure how you proved that rifles deal more damage than twins, but whatever. I will admit that the margin is closer than I thought and eventually rifles may overtake twins, but as of yet they do not. Concerning time trials, if you use rifles you will be in the same position or be forced to relocate while being unable to fire; twins allow you to do both. I would not discount twins entirely just yet as they still provide something that no other Gunmaster weapon offers, movement.

[thunder-ray]

So what everybody saying is that lvling twin handguns is a waste of time? If so then that sucks cuz im wasting my time lvling twin handguns :(

[Hrith]

[...]Heh, this example you quoted is accurate, but irrelevant. It was tested against very low-level enemies, so unless you like playing C missions with your 150/20 character, it's 100% irrelevant.

Low-DFP monsters favour low-ATP weapons, since they lose less of the damage done, and high-ATP weapons gain less of the damage done (simple maths, obviously).

How much do you deal with each weapon?

I gave back the Battlestoppers I had borrowed, so the only ones I have left are at 0/10, since I'm not going to use grinders on a useless weapon, and I don't have a low-grind Rattlesnake.

So I tried with unground weapons, I dealt 1020 damage with twin handguns, and 1640 with rifles (Lightning Beasts S2 Distova with cast GM Lv150/11, Lumirus / Kaos Knight, Megistaride, Twin Grav Lv50 and Grav Shot Lv50, Blackbull 0/10 and Battlestopper 0/10).

200x1020 = 204,000
132x1640 = 216,480

Clear rifle advantage, and that's 10* rifle vs 12* twin handgun.

[Magician]

So what everybody saying is that lvling twin handguns is a waste of time? If so then that sucks cuz im wasting my time lvling twin handguns :(

It's not a complete waste of time, if you're playing for fun. The twin handguns are the fourth best dps on a class with four weapon choices. It's only a waste of time if you intend to 1337 it up as a time-attack racer and plan on doing missions at optimum efficiency and time. However, if you're a community player or a role-player and like the twins because of their style, then level those bullets and rock them all you want.

[kejen]

When soloing, twin handguns are nice sometimes. For example, the last room in white beasts S2 before the boss. 2 ubraka (roach looking things), and 4 bears may spawn all throwing a projectile at you. There is no way you can handle all of them with a rifle, you will get hit too many times. With twin handguns I can make it past that part without even getting hit at times. Even if there were only 2 ubraka I cant seem to keep them both locked with 31+ rifle.

Depends on the situation. I prefer a rifle in general though to answer the question.

[darkante]

Twin Handgun are inferior to Rifle, but as long people can accept that.
Who cares? It´s just a freaking game. You pay to have fun.
If you enjoyment are those Twin Handgun, then that´s cool.
I sure love using them.

It´s not like we pay for anyone else to play anyway

[stukasa]

One thing I don't understand is why everyone uses the number of bullets fired in a minute to calculate DPS. I mean, how many enemies take an entire minute to kill? Most of the small/medium ones probably take less than 10 seconds, in which case the DPS gap is much smaller.

Example:
200/6 = 33.3 x 1020 = 34,000
132/6 = 22 x 1640 = 36,080

That's a 2,080 gap, or about one extra twin handgun shot (x2 bullets), which is hardly what I'd call a huge difference. The gap doesn't get big until you extend the time longer than it actually takes to kill an enemy. You might be saying, "But enemies usually spawn more than one at a time!" True, but that's still only about one extra twin shot each. The difference is even less noticeable when you're in a party and enemies are dying in a couple seconds. I'm not saying twins are better, I'm just saying they're not as far behind as some people make it seem.

[Volcompat321]

i use 3 shotguns, 1 rifle and 2 twin handguns. i disagree with most of the people's outlook on twin handguns. Twinhandguns on FG are a waste, somewhat on GM cause i dont really see the speed that GM offers, they just use a little more pp....either way, i use them regularly no matter the pp cost, or how fast i run out of pp. they are strong, i hit 1k(each bullet) with agteride and the right bullet of course. so thats 2k a push of a button. im lvl 131 right now, they can only get stronger as i level up. when in tight situations, or if you like moving around, i suggest twins :D