Duping vs. Stealing

[Mun-KEE]

So... this was going on over in the trade forum, and I thought it belonged here... also I am very curious on your guys opinions.

Somebody had said something about duping an item. And everyone jumped down his throat saying that duping is the lowest of the low, etc. I agree until this next statement.

Duping is worse than stealing.

What?!?!? So I post a reply stating that I felt stealing is much worse than duping ever could be.

So, if the item that I traded a hard earned item turns out to be a dupe, does that HURT me? No! It is still hard earned (for me) as the methods that I used to get it were legit and difficult. If the duper still has his/her item, and that is what gives him/her their jollies, then more power to em. I got what I wanted. And I am happy. But... if then someone then STOLE the item that I just earned, thus depriving me of it, depriving me of MY FUN and HARD EARNED stuff, I think I would be a tad bit more pissed. At least when someone else dupes it doesnt affect my game that much.

The argument that people were using to say duping is worse doesnt make sense to me. They say that it ruins the rarity of an item. This is true, but it hasnt really been a huge impact (I think). I am sure that spread needles are pretty duped by now, but you know what? I can still count on one hand the number of people I have seen use one. That still seems pretty rare to me.

And another thing... people always seem to assume that a low level (20 and up) guy w/ a rare item is a duper. This is not true. I just gave my RAcast a stag cutlery I got last night. Why did I give it to him? Cuz the force I have will never be able to use it. And the ranger can. So why should I just get rid of it? Heck, I usually give "rares" like db sabers and Varistas (or crush bullets, etc.) To new guys just to be nice... tells them saves em the trouble of having to find it later. And if they dont want it, wanna find it on their own, a) GREAT! More power to ya!, and b) I dont get offended or anything. If there is a low level guy w/ a weapon to big for their britches, and it pisses you off that they are just too strong... then go play in another game. Its not like games are hard to find, much less open slots in them.

In the end, this is just my opinion, and I think that as long as what someone else does doesnt deprive me of my fun, I can look elsewhere. It sucks that it is happening, but what can we do about it? Nothing. I mean, geeze, I cant even tell if an item I trade for is duped. And in the end? I decided that I dont care. As long as someone isnt duping right in front of my face, I wont know, and I dont want to know. This game is a blast. If it comes down to it, I will play password only games w/ my trusted friends.

[Ambrai]

Yes it does hurt everyone. Duping floods the market with that perticular item and therefore reduces the value of it. Some people would love to see that. It's the old druid motto: Phat l33t, no work.

[ScaraB]

Yep. Duping affects everyone that cares about rare items - which is a large percentage of players. Sure you may not see a lot of spread needles or the like now, but every week there will be more and more.

Stealing? This may sound harsh but if you get an item stolen its usually your own damn fault, either through trading with someone you don't know, or playing in a high risk environment - again, a game where you don't know people and you're not strong enough to avoid getting killed. Duping affects everyone no matter what they do, aside from playing and trading only within a select group of people dedicated to playing the game fairly. Which is pretty much what I try to do. I haven't played a game with strangers in a long time.

[Draekkan]

What happens when you dupe items? They appear everywhere, and sometimes that is not good.

A few weeks ago, while playing some online games, I was having a blast with the teams that would join up. Then, some lvl 35 char appears with a Spread Needle. He managed to kill every monster in the room before any of us touched them. So where did the fun of the game go? Out as soon as that kid joined. And does it hurt? Yes, because for those moments (before I left) I wasn't getting ANY XP. I was wasting my time, and my only function was to open the door to the next room. Sometimes they will put the gun down when told it cheapens the game, sometimes they don't. And why did he get such a rare gun in the first place? Most likely someone duped it a hundred fold and started giving them out.

So I left the room and created another. Guess what? Some other kid does the exact same thing. I wish Sega would have scrapped that gun completely.

[Mun-KEE]

Okay -

I see your point and concede that duping is bad and in a roundabout way does hurt me. But the way that I look at it is this. I do have an option for the dupe stuff. Dont play w/ them. Use passwords. Play w/ people you know are legit (like the ones on this board). But if you are stolen from, what options do I have?

None. Or sinking to their level and duping myself. Neither of those are attractive options.

ScaraB I agree w/ you on most points. You do have the ability to not be stolen from. I usually play in passworded games w/ people I trust. But last night I didnt. And man was I nervous. A friend and I were in a game, and people would jump in and out. I am lv 80 friend 94. funny enough, most joiners to the game were lv 100. They would come in, and first ask if we have rare items for trade (actually was I want an Egg Blaster! or Spread Needle or something of the like), then beat one boss w/ us and leave. At this point I unequiped my Soul Eater +35... I know that it is not crazy rare, but would sure be upset to lose it. Luckily I am a force so I can fight weaponless... but my friend is a Racaseal. She was only using Crush Bullet of which she has a fair number. So I know how to avoid being stolen from, and I have yet to be stolen from.

Anyway, I think you guys missed the point I was asking. I am curious if you guys think that Duping is WORSE than stealing. That is the point I debating. They are both bad, and both can lower the quality of my gaming expirience. But, I feel that I have more control of duping, since if a lamer w/ duped spread needles comes in and kills everything, I can leave. If someone steals my stuff, I am SOL. Since I cant use that item anymore, there is no way to fix it.

Please, post your replies... and remember, this is just all opinion. If everyone just agrees w/ what I said, it would make it a very boring post... which is why I hope you guys have some cool facts/theories that may swing my opinion to match yours...

[ScaraB]

I guess I wasn't too clear in my post - yes I do think duping is FAR worse than stealing.

I think, you may find this crazy, that stealing in a way adds to the game. I like the fact that when dealing with people you can be basically a "bad guy" if you so choose. To me, it makes the game more interesting. The fact that you have the freedom of expression to make your character either a sneaky rascal, or a generous do-gooder. Sure it sucks to get something stolen - I did one time when I was lower level, I traded with a guy I didn't know and he ran off with my stuff. I learned my lesson, hehe, thats for sure. But isn't it cool when you find people that are helpful, and resurrect and heal you, and offer you weapons or items they can't use? To me, it makes the good guys more real, because the option exists to be a jerk. If no one could steal, if there was a failsafe trading system and you dropped nothing when you die - well, then everyone would be honorable by default, not out of choice.

Maybe you don't agree, but I think stealing from dead bodies and ripping people off in trades makes the game more interesting - like you said, you were playing with people you didn't know - and you were NERVOUS - it almost makes your items more valuable to you if you know there's a chance they could be stolen if you die - it makes you more careful. It gives an heightened edge to trading if you don't quite trust someone - to me, anything that heightens your emotional attachment to a game is good.

I think I explained before why duping is not so fun. Part of the fun for high level characters is of course looking for those really rare items. You put in the time, and eventually you are rewarded. Duping negates the time and effort and value of rare items by flooding the 'market' so to speak with way more copies of certain weapons than were ever intended. Staying within a circle of non-dupers mitigates the problem a little, but still you shouldn't have to isolate yourself from the world just to keep rare items rare.

[rekonstruct]

Well like most of you, I think they are both bad. But If I were to have to make a choice as to which one I would rather be effected by it would be duping. I would rather come away from a trade with a duped item, than be a victim of a thief.

Still, I wouldn't want trade with a duper, and be aware of it. Simply for the fact that its really an uneven trade, and that my item that the duper probably needs would be cloned and spread around, therefore unearned.

As to your assertion that stealing is worse than duping.... I can see your point. As I said, I would rather be duped than stolen from, because at least I come out with something. Dont get me wrong though, duping does harm the game as well as my enjoyment of it. I just think of the times I join games with my lv100 (with standard rare items), and everyone at half my level has spreadneedles and stag cutlerys, I do feel somewhat effected by that... think of it in terms of this analogy: You work somewhere for 20 years to earn your gold watch, then in the following year, the company issues gold watches to everyone. Maybe its not the best analogy, but you get the idea. I mean you can still enjoy the fact the you earned your watch, but knowing that everyone has the same watch that they didnt work 20 years for has got to make you just a tad bitter.

Everytime I see one of those trade lists with some crazy stuff (ie. super rare stuff) I pretty much brand them dupers, for 2 reasons.

1) I cant really see any 1 person finding that many rare items alone.. ever. (what with the section ID thing)

2) If they did earn them (ie Find them), I dont think they would be that eager to trade them off. Its unlikely that they have found duplicates too. C'mon, which legitimate person do you know with 2 Holy Rays, or 2 Chaos Bringers? Heck, I havent even run across 1 mag cell, much less 2. And I'll bet its the same for many of the legitimate gamers as well.

A note about #1: If they did find some of the rares (likely) and they are willing to trade them for more rares, they are obviously trading a duped item. How else do you build up a collection? If you trade the only Stag you have for an Agito, you wouldnt have the Stag anymore. So you keep your collection by trading dupes. Thats how they build up these ultra trade lists. I dont like the idea of trading away something I worked for and was fortunate enough to find, to someone who wont really be giving anything in return (ex: the duper still keeps his Stag, while I lose an Agito).

Thats pretty much how I feel on the whole thing. I hope this reflects at least some of your views on this whole thing. Or am I in the minority?

[Ratsmack]

Duping...WORSE than cheating? Wow. That's...wrong in so many ways. Mun-kee, I agree with everything you've said so far. Now, duping may in some small, small, SMALL way decrease the value of an item, but you'd have to have many, many copies of that item on one person. Making one copy doesn't decrease the economy by a cent. And, hell, if they want to make Meseta worth crap, I'd rather have the weapon's value decreased than have it gone. Just because a weapon is worth much less than before doesn't mean its damage is any less, it doesn't mean the Boomas look at how expensive your weapon is and adjust their stats accordingly. I've been using every grinder I can find on my rare machine gun, costing me both money and time to boost it up. Someone steals it...whoop, all that work for nothing. Someone makes it worth less...oh, dear god no! That means I won't be able to sell or trade the weapon I have every intention of using! Plus, you're forgetting something. If the value of, say, a Soul Eater decreases because some dimwit decides "Oooh, fun, many copies" then there's going to be a bunch of other dimwits who say "Oooh, fun, many copies" to other items. Hence, EVERYTHING the damned dupers can get their hands on decreases in value. As for stealing, as Mun-kee said, the item you worked so hard on and the apple of your eye is *poof* gone. Dupers may decrease the value, but they don't take a weapon away or decrease its stats. And Scarab? I ask you, what were you smoking when you wrote that reply? "Stealing makes the game more interesting"!?!? What!? Oh, yes, it's SOOO much fun to keep your best weapon fearfully tucked away while you go out with a weapon you can afford to lose. Oh, yes, it's SOOO much fun to see the weapon you got used to and grinded up just whisked away. Seriously, Scarab, lay off the drugs.

[Manifest]

wow scarab. you just totally changed my opinion, a feat that is not simple to accomplish. I totally had the idea that duping was cool (I dont do it, but who cares if others do right?) but you have a good point about rarity and actually feeling like your items have real value. cool.

[segagameplay]

let me say to the previous opinin i stand and aplaud you! I couldnt agree more. I find dupping worse as in fact stealing is in fact a vital part of the game. It was intended for people to be able to steal. It was not intended to dup.

[Aylia]

I totally agree with duping being worse than stealing. I've had things stolen from me before and sure I was pissed but I just kept playing the game. Now with all the duping that's going on I've been starting to think about dropping the whole game altogether. My thinking is why am I trying to hard to get something that's so hard to find when there's no meaning to it because there are so many people that are getting the item at a whim. I'd like to find a group of people that had the same non-duping ideals that I do that I could trade and play without having to worry about getting a duped items.

[Acel]

Duping not good. But hey, thats how it is in online games. People will always try to do stuffs like that. Same goes for stealing but then one major difference.

Try stealing from me in real life and I'll make you eat my shoes...
(goes out to all those that have stolen from me before, esp Magnus/Gizmo/ISIS/Athena)

Ps: I hate those who steal and have no freaking guts to own up. "Noooo~~" they will always say(man, really makes me itch for my bicycle chain)

[segagameplay]

any one tries to steal from me in real life would meet mr 45 magnum.

[DRKdragon]

guys stealing is SO much worser then duping cuz being theft is BS i mean yeah duping it bad for the enviroment blah blah blah but... why would u give a rats butt about other people those people can be a guy playing with no pants,or a one-legged monkey thats types. really are u thinking that those are the people you wanna care for??Of course friends are important.. comrades,warbuds,buttbuddys.. but strangers or the other MILLION people u will never get to know about personally??? yeah sure but thieving is a bad lesson to teach.

[Josh]

I vote: Duping worse than stealing.
I'm proud of my 2,342,823.76 db sabers because at least i know i earned them. I dont wanna take some item thats been copied and given to other people, even if im sick of finding no good weapons.. duping lowers the value of the rare item a lot. instead of only a lucky few having the item, a bunch of greedy people have it. That's what ruined Diablo 1, and I don;t want it ruining PSO.

[dev1nsan]

I think both are bad but how can you people say that duping is worse than stealing. Yea duping does bring down the value of rare items but it's not like your gonna find a duped item breaking one of those blue boxes in ruins. What I'm trying to say is if you don't want duped items than don't take any and it won't affect your game, except for a little bitterness towards that level 25 with the needle spread.
But you can't help it if you get your shit jacked. Sure you can play with your little circle of freinds, but who wants to have a strict schedule on when to meet just to play videogames. I mean the point of online gaming means to play and interect with the whole world not just find 3 good buddeis and set up a schedule to play whenever you want to go online.

[Ukyou]

When someone steals an item, you personally are being messed with and are SOL.

When someone dupes an item that's not supposed to be easily accessed, the entire PSO community is SOL.

While getting stolen from is really annoying, I'd rather have my experience ruined instead of everyones.

Duping is FAR FAR worse in my opinion.

[Ne0]

I agree with Mun-KEE but then again i agree with Ambrai. I think its 50/50 lol Duping can be good for u if ur a nwbie u wont give A poop. But stealing can seriously hurt u, because say u got a, umm, twin brand or dbl saber, and ur fighting with these guys and u die they jump on u and take it then run otu of the game? What next? You wanna kill some1 rite? rite. Say ur in a trade and u RLLY want a dbl saber and ur payin all the hard earned money uve saved up lets say... 900k. You stand on different sides of a room. U drop all he money and he drops a orange box u run over he runs over and u see that its a cane? What then? After writeing this i think its 70/30 because stealing can seriously make u mad and mybe u will even crack the disk in half... waste of 55$ Also my advice to u ppl afraid of getting something stolen is do NOT stand on seperate sides of ANY room unless ur 100% possitive this guy/girl wont cheat u. Also i would ask to see the item first and then just look at it on ground not pick it up. If he says no that will nto prove hes thief cuz wouldnt u say no? Third maybe ghet a riend to get both items then give to both u and him/her. Thats all i have time to writ now.

-Ne0

[UnclearHorizon]

duping is worse...stealing isnt cheating...its just downrite mean

[Lenneth]

Well, here's one way to look at it, I suppose:

Morally speaking, stealing is far worse than duplication. Ultimately, you are making a concious decision to screw someone over for your own gain. I've heard a lot of people try to justify stealing by saying, "it's only a game...". The things you steal don't even exist, which can't bode well for your own morals if you toss your honor out the window for an imaginary weapon. It's also not like there's an option to pk or steal from someone during normal gameplay, either... so the arguement that "it adds to the fun of the game" seems to be rather convenient if you're the one doing all the stealing.

However...
From a game balance/logistical viewpoint, duplication absolutely RUINS games. It's hard to understand unless you've experienced it yourself; in Diablo I "Godly Plate of the Whale" littered the ground like weeds, it was getting so bad. What duplication does, ultimately, is ruin the seeking process that a lot of people play these games for. It's not morally clean, either; if you understand that you're helping to ruin other people's playing experience for your own gain, but do it anyways... you are being selfish.

Really, though... why are you guys arguing which is worse? NEITHER of them are acceptable. I'll sure as hell try to blacklist you if I find out someone is a thief or a duper, or a rampant gamesharker for that matter. After all, it's not like there aren't plenty of other people to play with that haven't forgotten what honor is.

Pax, Lenneth

[Star_Angel]

I'm with the majority in here... Duping is worse than stealing... Rare Items lose thier meaning, and people don't need to work as hard for them anymore. Rekonstruct, The point you made about about not 1 person finding many rare items... of course not many people have found many rares... that would defeat the purpose, and you don't nessecarly need EVERY rare item in the game stashed in the bank. If I was able to find a rare, I'd be extatic... er... I would have been... Now I just look at it as something everyone else has now because it was duped back into normal pruduction.
All I hope is that in the end of all this cheating, sega is finding ways to prevent it from happening in PSO2 (I'm sure there has to be someway to keep Gameshark from doing what it does http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/icon_frown.gif ).

[Shoryu]

I think stealing is far worse than duping. 'Course, I havent played Diablo, so I'm not qualified there, but even as a semi-newbie (level 24) when I had my Riot Buster +9 that I grinded up with hard earned monogrinders, I was VERY VERY pissed.. when I found out something I traded away I got a dupe in return, I was not as mad.

[ScaraB]

It seems like most of the people here who think stealing is worse are mad because they lost something.

Well I'm mad because I lost something too - my enjoyment of PSO. Down the toilet because there is no point to hunting for ultra rares anymore. BECAUSE THEY ARENT RARE ANYMORE.

To whoever asked what I was smoking when I said stealing makes PSO more interesting, I already explained that in detail. I think I made a good case on how it DOES make the game more interesting.

I think it comes down to these two facts:

* The ability to steal was how the game was purposefully designed.

* The ability to dupe is a CHEAT and was definitely not how the game was purposefully designed.

[ShenLong21]

i really don't care about stealing or duping. cuz when you don't trust someone just go play by yourself instead play with ppl and you worry your damn weapon lose. than just put the weapon +15 something, it still good kicking ass. by the way what about the money you have just buy it from someone but the weapon is dup that you not luck. Man. this is just damn game anyway. or don't go online play. for me i just have the sbeatblade=25 and it good i don't need anymore weapon. if i want more rare i just want to see how is power and or good looking.

[onexero]

This isn't that hard a decision. If somebody steals my weapon, I am directly hurt; I no longer have said weapon. Duping just makes people FEEL that their stuff is worth less. I'm sure it's been said before but my gun will be just as strong if there are only 100 of them in the game or 10k.

It's all psychological with duping, and if you really feel your sense of accomplishment is diminished by a duped version, you're forgetting the fact that you EARNED yours, and in your head that makes it better.

If duping affects you so badly as to make you want to quit the game, then I suggest you stop playing or taking part in any competitive activities, as there will always be a cheater in those. You also probably shouldn't go outside much, cause there are bad people out there too.

To whoever said that stealing was MEANT to be in the game and that it adds a touch of realism in that you hold real value over your items, in a word, HUH? Sega would lose a lot of my respect if they actually DID deliberatly leave a trade system out of the game. Saying that being able to steal makes the game more realistic or puts value on your items is ridiculous. It just makes you fear the loss of a weapon, and makes you stop using it. In real life sure there are people that steal, but people that do that are subject to consequences, physical, legal, etc. Until there are PSO police that catch theives or I can physically stop another player from taking my stuff (IE shoot them, block them from the tele, etc) then having theft be a "feature" of the makes for a pretty imbalanced system.

Quite the essay, huh? I guess the gist of it is that stealing hurts you in teh pocket, duping hurts you in the mind. My rifle +2 getting stolen when i was like lvl 5 hurt me a ton more than seeing some guy with Visk just like mine and knowing that he didn't earn it. Big whoop, It's none of my business anyway.

[ScaraB]

Obviously the game was designed with the ability for someone to steal your weapon if you die! This is obvious.

* If you item is stolen its your own fault. YOUR OWN FAULT and it could have been avoided. If you trade with someone you don't know its your fault if he steals your weapon and runs. If you die in a game full of strangers, ITS YOUR OWN FAULT. You should have been more careful, played a lower difficulty, or played only with people you trust.

* Items being duped affects their rarity REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU DO. There is nothing anyone can personally do to prevent say the Spread Needle becoming COMMON due to dupers. Sure you can play offline only but whats the point?

Two MORE reasons that duping is far worse than stealing.

[MunKEE]

Wow-
Go away for a weekend, and the whole world replies =-)

Anyway, I am glad to see that everyone feels quite strongly about this. I would like to add this to the pile:

I do think that duping and stealing are very bad and wish I didnt have to deal with either. I still think that stealing is worse than duping. A friend of mine almost lost her spread needle this weekend. She had just gotten up to lv 100. She let someone she trusted check it out. All of the sudden he dissapeared. We were both quite pissed. Luckily, it was a misunderstanding, and he came back on (he said he was booted) and returned the item. But man did that almost ruin our day.

I traded almost everything I had for a SOUL BANISH this weekend (which I couldnt use! LOL man was I unhappy!), and then later traded it for a Holy Ray and a Chain Sawd. I gave the chain sawd to a friend and kept the ray. Were these duped? Most likely. Am I still happy w/ them? Yes. I traded almost everything I found in the game for 85 levels, for that Soul Banish. And then that for a holy ray and chain sawd? Anyone want to tell me that I didnt earn those? Even if the guy that traded em to me duped em? No. I STILL think that they are rare. Maybe I have been playing in the wrong games, but not only have I seen few of them, but people STILL join my game to ask if I have a holy ray or an egg blaster (man alot of people asked for these this weekend).

I have yet to have anything stolen. But hearing accounts of other people stealing bothers me greatly.

As to the statement that stealing is good, and even intentional, ... Whoa. That I just cant swallow. I work in the game industry, and I refuse to believe that someone consciesly decided to not only allow this to happen, but even go so far as saying that it is an intended FEATURE. Wow. I dont want people to have the ability to be a jerk online. I have a friend that had a bad experience online for his first time logging on. Guess who doesnt ever play online anymore? I bet he is glad that people are allowed to be jerks online. I deal w/ enough of those in real life. PSO strives to make everything very teamwork oriented. They TRIED to make it so that you cant be a jerk. I mean, you cant swear, you cant hurt your teamates, and you cant even get passed Caves 1 w/o a teamate. That sounds like they want you to RELY on other people, not screw them. So, to reiterate, I refuse to believe that is intentional. You know why I think they left this feature in? If you die in an area, you SHOULD be punished. I would rather drop my gear, then say loose xp (like in MUDS and Evercrack). So I think that dropping weapons and money is a suitable punishment. Maybe you cant get back to the area you died in, cuz it is just too high level for you. So your buddy picks up the weapon and gives it back to you.

Actually, it is probably even more simple than that. Probably just a design flaw. There is obviously no item IDs (as shown by rampant duping), and so there is no way to say that said item is a specific characters. So it is free game once dropped. Who knows?

I must say that I am very surprised at the responses to this post. I really didnt expect the volume of people that think duping is worse to be as huge as it is... heh, I am in the minority it seems.

Oh, I used to complain about never finding rares (I still almost never do). But you know what? I realized. I dont play this game for the rares. I play it for the character advancement. If someone joins up using a duped spread needle, and they refuse to not use it... I just leave. or ask them too. The fun of the game is not the loot u find. It is the act of playing w/ other people (non-jerks) and advancing my character to become the all powerful lv 100. As has been stated many times before, the best items in the game are not the ultra rares... they are the normal items with high percents vs. monsters.

Eek Eek!

[ScaraB]

Come on man. Think about it for just one second. Do you think Sonic Team made you drop your weapon when you die, BUT NEVER ONCE THOUGHT "OH ANOTHER PLAYER COULD TAKE THIS" Come on, you're being totally naive. OF COURSE Sonic Team knew someone could steal your weapon when you die. OF COURSE Sonic Team knew that trading was not secure.

To argue otherwise shows your unwillingness to accept the OBVIOUS.

Regardless of how you feel about stealing, Sonic Team did knowingly create the game this way.

[Heero_Yuy]

Here is my view.
Duping> drops rarity of items makes people feel like their Frying Pan they worked to get is not worth as much and they slightly mad.
Stealing> depending on the rarity of the weapon u were using depends on how pissed u are at the person
One effects the entire PSO community little at a time so for now duping is not a prob but as more and more of these "rare" items are created i will get increasingly mad.
The other brings an immediate bad day most of the time and send you raring off to find them and yell at them.
I for now am more concerned with thieves raiding my items than someone making an extra agito to give to friends.

[JohnnyStealz]

Duping and Stealing are both wrong. Stealing is wrong because you put trust in the guy your trading with. Duping is wrong because if everyone has it, why bother trading at all? Yet, I have to agree wit Scarab.
Stealing is your choice. I love being tense when I die and hoping someone will just revive me instead of rob me. But if u dupe, and everyone and their Grampz has the same weapon that you've spent 40+ hours tryin' to find, then you just feel empty... I hope in PSO2, they find some way to stop the duping.

[QVirus89]

I would have to say Duping is worse. It gets good hard-work-earned weapons around to a bunch of whiners who won't work for what they want. Stealing was part of the original design of the game, and you have to watch out if you play with strangers. However, I feel that Sega should have made some type of reputation system, and reputation could be lowered by looting off a dead corpse. Somehow. I'm not sure on the specifics though. Maybe like in Diablo II, instead of just dropping stuff, it's part of your corpse. and picking up other's corpses would lower reputation? Just a side thought. Duping lowers the economy, but also spoils the fun of games, especially when you're playing with random strangers, and making new friends online. But I denounce both of them, and say they're both bad.

[onexero]

Sonic Team probably knew about the theiving problem, their original testers most likely didn't even like it. I think it's less a matter that they thought this was a GOOD thing that they just didn't get around to fixing it, kinda like they just kinda didn't get around to giving offical support for BBA in US.

Scarab: so basically you're saying that the game, through this "feature" allowing you to steal, basically makes you have to be wary of strangers. What the hell kind of ass-backwards thinking is this?

So they're thinking "whoo! let's make an ONLINE game, but practically FORCE players to only play with friends, cause we have set it up so that you have to automatically distrust other players." This is a COOPERATIVE game, not a competition. You shouldn't have to worry about other players in a videogame if you are meant to team up with them. If you say yeah you can also play with online people you trust, then that means you had to play with them as a stranger at some point. This may make the whole thing more like real life, but people want to play a game to HAVE FUN. I don't think anybody out there would think somebody ganking their gun off their freaking body or dicking them over in a trade is fun. This stealing crap is just a big headache, I think a player can show he's an asshole in this game in a number of ways and not have to be able to steal.

Nobody on the duping side has yet said yet exactly WHY duping is so bad. Sure it lowers to rarity of weapons but so what? YOU still earned it, so be happy in that. If some guy duped it that doesn't lower your accomplishment at all. DON'T LET IT BOTHER YOU. Theiving is something thrust on you, it hurts you in a very real way. Duping just kinda is like "man, I'm no better than these other punks, cause they all got Spread Needles too!" It's all in your head. Who cares?

What stealing does is make people take fewer risks, trust people less, and not use the cool weapons they've found COOLER weapons that they can now hide for fear of being stolen. I don't see any advantage at all to it, other than if you really wanna be a prick then you can be one pretty easily. I don't remember anybody on EQ complaining about how Verant FORCES them to play fair with a trade system. This is cause the majority of players don't want to be stolen from. I remember a bug in trade system that let somebody switch an item for another before the trade went through. Guess how long that bug stayed in before it got fixed? And NOBODY bitched about how this wasn't realistic or it wouldn't let people act the way they want to.

Duping sucks, but only for the guy that is also probably lvl 100 via Gameshark and will get tired of the game within a couple days. Anybody else that is bothered by this is just letting themself get upset.

I apologize for any offensive language, but this topic just seems so damn obvious to me and yet people seem to rather be stolen from then see someone have a gun that MAY have not been earned.

[Acel]

First of all, PSO is NOT just a game about finding rares and flaunting them Online when you reach lvl 100. If you think that TOO MANY rares ruin the game then STOP PLAYING FOR YOUR OWN GOODNESS SAKE!
Japanese players know that Americans are cheating, but DO THEY whine & complain like you Scarab? If somebody wants to dupe, let him be! Does it REALLY affect your game so much? Or is there actually some PRIDE problem here? IS IT NECESSARY to be "recognised" with a HARD EARNED "super rare" in your posession(collecting dust maybe even when you own it) that others can only dream of(because they cant have it to dupe it), in order to enjoy the game online? Im sorry, Phantasy Star Online is definitely much more that that.

So what if those cheaters duped 1 million Stag Cutlery(watever)? Ok, "Market" value drops and you get all that crap. Well, YOU CAN CHOOSE not to trade with them anyway if you think that can stop them! Get your own Rare at your own pace then...300++ hrs, clear all quests lvl 100 Skyly char blah blah blah yada yada yada. Who's stopping you? Oh, of course we all know its because you guys that are whining are the ones that are all green with envy to start of with. For 2 cts, I'm sure there are many players out there like me who CANT BE BOTHERED with rares. WHO CARES IF THAT LVL 21 HUMAR HAS A DOUBLE SABER?!? To tell you the truth, IT WILL DEFINITELY NOT MAKE THE GAME ANY LESS FUN if there were NO rares or when the servers are flooded with 1 million Magical Pieces and Pan Arms Blade. And lets say(I know someone will point this out eventually)if people starts popping up with a Spread Needle, what are you going you do? Simply ask them to stop, POLITELY. And if not, just leave the game with the current bunch of players and remake a new game with "No Spread Needle Pls" as your game name! Make a password and mail it to the rest of the group if you have to(esp if you want to stop the incident from reoccuring). Im sure there's a way, if you think HARD enough.

One main thing here, when you go online with a game like PSO, it isnt just about playing a game anymore. There are many things you have to observe esp when you socialise. Stealing is definitely the number 1 Nonos if you really want to make some "true" friends. So puuleaze~! Nobody come and tell me all those crap about making the game more exciting if you can steal... Do you know its exciting to break someone's nose too? Try it. Really.

To make this post relevant to the Original topic...
Imagine one of these two senarios happened in the future, tell me which one you guys feel is worse(and that would be my answer):

1. Months after the offical launch, thieves are lurking everywhere. At the Japanese servers, nobody wants to play with a "stranger/gaijin" anymore. Nobody is willing to make friends online. Everyone in your game has to be your cousin/your next door neighbour/your brother's friend/your girlfriends brother or your Father's other long lost illegitimate child etc. Every game needs a password. And if a Japanese happened to loose his stuff to a Gaijin, he'll simply infiltrate another game in the US servers and steal some goodies back from another unsuspecting victim. Hooray.
This is not revenge in their eyes, it is justice. GaijinChuBatsuGumi is officially formed. Then in retaliation, the Americans came up with the "Japanese sucks this" and the "Japanese sucks that" game names and the Europeans joined in thinking that its SO cool. Soon, the whole world goes to war in 2002 after a verbal confrontation broke out, as one of the Japanese generals got robbed by the Secretary of the White House and a German general took sides...

2. A year has passed. Duplication went unstopped, Gladiator Spike is now considered a common rare. Every Tom,Dick and Harry has it, even a level 1 Newbie Humar. Scape doll? What for? Why bother to pick up a Magical Piece from a corpse when you have a dozen in your bank already? And Why trade even when you can just get anything from everyone and anyone when you ask for it. Who would mind giving away rares when it means nothing now? Remember those times when you have to go through those stupid procedures just to get the deal done? My, Im sure everyone had a good laugh. 3 Cheers to the thieves! And what about Spread Needle? "3 sec kill" Players-for-hire have became a trend...


Ps: scarab, your life must have been pretty sad not being able to trust people other than your small circle of friends...and yeah I hope you carry on stealing with the rest of your life if you wanna be the "bad guy", I mean if that is what makes you happy...(which is of course the most important thing)

[Heero_Yuy]

Well Acel i must say i agree with well everything you said. I do realize that i do keep rares with me that i barely use and now i know why.TY for showing us all how vain we r now off to drop some items.

[segagameplay]

i have to again point out if sonic team didnt want stealing to be possible they would not have included 10,000 lines of code to include it.

[SuperSubZero]

I was always under the impression that the characters in the PSO universe were a little more noble and honest. People who willingly play as theives apparently didn't bother to read the backstory; the idea that Pioneer2 doesn't have the resources to continue looking for a new planet, and it will take cooperation to defeat the evil on Ragol to make it a suitable relocation spot.

I mentioned once before that in many cases the personality one portrays in the game tends to reflect a player's real personality. If you play honorably, heal and revive teammates, protect weaker characters, and dive in front of a Force to protect them from a Delsaber, that is one reflection. If you act like a prick and steal and item whore and spam for trades and dupe items and annoy everyone.. well, that may just be another reflection. I tend to play the former.

-SSZ

[ScaraB]

People! People!

Did you guys even really read my posts in this thread? All of them?

DID I EVER SAY I STEAL? LOL, I've never stolen anything, sorry.

I think I explained my opinions very well. But I guess I can offer a recap.

* Stealing - Like it or not Sonic Team designed the game this way. Dismissing it as a "bug they didn't have time to fix" is ludicrous.

Again, I like the fact that weapons can be stolen in CERTAIN SITUATIONS that are usually avoidable. Like I already said, I personally think it adds a little flavor to the game. I think it makes the dynamic between players a little different. Look if no one could steal, then everyone is a good guy by default. It becomes meaningless. SINCE THE POSSIBILITY TO STEAL IS THERE, NOT STEALING WHEN YOU COULD HAVE BECOMES SO MUCH MORE SIGNIFICANT.

Feel free of course to disagree, but at least think about what I'm saying.

Like the old saying goes, you can't have the good without the bad. Of course theivery only leads to a bad reputation, but to me it adds more spice to the mix to know that theiving scoundrels are out there.

AGAIN:
Theft can be avoided.

Theft was deliberately made possible by Sonic Team.

IMO, it broadens the options, makes things more interesting, and makes being a "good guy" actually mean something because you have the choice.

* Duping.
I'm sorry but once you've put in a lot of hours, I have over 200, looking for and finding rares is the main thing that keeps you coming back to PSO. Well, my opinion anyway.

There's nothing you can do about duping, its consequences are unavoidable.

RARE ITEMS BECOME MORE COMMON THROUGH DUPING. Okay, we can all agree on that right? Its a simple fact.

What makes rare items special? THEIR RARITY!! Yes! Duping takes this away.

Sooo you say, "don't trade then!". Well, THAT SUCKS. Sonic Team obviously made the game to encourage trading. Trading for legit items is (was) fun! So because of CHEATERS I should just not trade, and BE HAPPY ABOUT IT? That's utterly ridiculous.

Duping has ruined Trading

Duping has devalued Rarity

Duping IS SIMPLY NOT HOW THE GAME WAS MEANT TO BE PLAYED. IT IS CHEATING.

I really don't know what else I could say. This post and my first couple really explain my position well, I feel, If you read them thoroughly and consider what I'm saying.

Just my opinions, take em or leave em. But at least bother to read them if you're going to make comments directed at me (cough* Acel * cough).

[Cowboybebop]

I feel Stealing is worse than Duping but I feel duping has a bigger negative effect on the game than stealing. With stealing you could just make it known this guy is a thief (sephiroth lvl 100 is a thief silquid is a thief) but with duping you have no control over what that person does, only sega has control and it's time for them to step in. I have acquired a lot of good weapons and at first I was excited, but when I started hearing all of this duping and gameshark stuff it made me fell stupid because when I actually found something rare and traded it thinking I got a good deal I probably just contributed to someone duping. And all of these items I got are probably duped, but it's kind of silly I can take on dark faultz and win because have strong weapons weapons I probably wouldnt have if it wasnt for dupers. This kills the game somewhat for me because I like a challenge, and to feel like I earned something

[NikoN]

* Stealing... supposed to be in PSO

* Duping.... NOT supposed to be in PSO

...'nuff said

[Ratsmack]

Congratulate me, I read every post on this. Has my opinion changed? Ha ha ha ha ha...NO. Basically, most of the arguments made that duping is worse is that Sonic Team WANTED people to steal. OF COURSE NOT. Here, let me tell you something. You know when you die? Ya see, that can be avoided. It is YOUR mistake when you die. YOU messed up, YOU deserve to be punished. Therefore, Sonic Team said "Well, let's make them lose something for it." The money went without saying. Now, you needed to lose an item. It would be cruel to have you lose your armor, because then you'd probably have to lose your add-ons with it. That's a possible FIVE items lost. Eek. So, Sonic Team said "How about the MAG?" No way! People could have painstakingly earned enough money to buy the best items for it, only to have it go *poof?* No, no, no! The shield? Well, even the Celestial Shield isn't worth much. It wouldn't be ENOUGH to lose. Then, some genius in the team said "The weapon!" And so it was done. Now, even if this is not exactly what happened, you HAVE to realize the goal of a company is NOT to make a game that pisses people off utterly. They didn't WANT people to be stolen from, they just found it an unfortunate side-effect of having to lose something due to your error in getting yourself killed. Scarab, do you think Sonic Team bent over the programming console and said "Muhahaha! Let's make it so people can be stolen from! Muhahaha! Then we'll piss off enough people to have them quit and advise others to not buy our game! Muhahaha!" Ho boy...you're one smart cookie, then. Now, as for you duping very very bad, cheating...eh.... people, there was another argument made. It ruins the game...it effects every player. *raises hand* I don't give shit. I'm sure there's others that don't, either. *Poof* one argument down the drain. Now, I'd like to ask, HOW does it ruin the game? If I'm running around with my Spread Needle and shooting down baddies with a smile on my face, if someone comes in and tells me: "WHAT?! Spread Needles are worth shit!" Does my attack power go down? Do the enemies just yawn and ignore me? NO. I KEEP ON killing them with a smile on my face. The fun of destroying the baddy is still there. The fun of collecting items is too. COLLECT THEM. Then tell yourself "Wow, I collected them!" And be happy. Just because someone else duped himself all the items within an hour doesn't mean he collected them. It means he GOT them. YOU collected them. Just because they're of lesser value doesn't mean they just suddenly jump out of your hands and say "Ha, ha, hundreds of people already have me!" The game goes on, you can still kill monsters with a weapon of lesser value. You can still collect weapons and items of lesser value. NOTHING changes. JUST the economy. Personally, I never use meseta for anything but buying stuff at the stores. And, Sonic Team didn't want people to get pissed at their game. That's a very baaaaad thing to do. In fact, they added the extra challenge of having to retrieve your weapon so people wouldn't get pissed at how dying doesn't hurt you at all. Stealing leaves you with no weapon. Duping leaves you with the weapon, just a lower price tag on it. Get real, people.

[onexero]

Stealing - Makes it so you can't use your cool weapon anymore.

Duping - Makes it so EVERYBODY has the same cool weapon that you have.

I guess this argument rests on which of these scenarios you think is worse. I'm thinking that if I had a brand new Benz and somebody stole it, I'd be a helluva lot more pissed than if everybody on my block suddenly had a Benz after I just got one. But hey I guess some of you actually think there is value to the "braggin' rights" you apparently get when you have a super rare weapon. Wait, I forgot, nobody will SEE that weapon cause you're too afraid somebody will steal it if you die because Sega wanted it that way. Ugh.

[ScaraB]

I'm certainly not expecting to change anyone's opinion. Ratsmack we'll just have to agree to disagree. We can sit here and argue about Sonic Team's "intentions" until the cows come home, but for me it all comes down to the FACT that they ultimately did design the game this way. Enough said on that.

I still just don't think stealing is that big a problem. The games I've played with strangers, everyone has been really cool. And if a weapon gets stolen from you? Oh well man, its certainly not the end of the world. You really think people are going to be "Oh boo hoo my weapon was stolen! I hate this game! I hate Sonic Team! I'm never playing again!" If anyone gets THAT upset over a stolen weapon in a videogame they shouldn't be playing in the first place.

You apparently don't see much harm from duping, because you just see the game differently than I do. You have different priorities, great. For me, finding a weapon that is actually rare is (was) important and fun for me. Knowing that a weapon is no longer rare means it is NO LONGER THAT SPECIAL TO ME. So what if OBVIOUSLY it kills enemies the same? So what if I earned the weapon and someone else was just given it? Nothing changes the fact that the weapon isn't the rare, hard to find item it used to be - and to ME, that is detrimental to the game.

[Ratsmack]

Thanks for the peaceful reply, Scarab, I was worried I'd get flamed by everyone that disagreed with me. Well, anyways, first of all, I don't think I was too clear on the people quitting after being stolen from thing. It pisses people off to have their time stolen from them. Yes, I say TIME, because it took them some amount of that to get that weapon or grind that weapon up or whatever. Some might get pissed enough to just quit there and then or just play online very infrequently, and if that's a crybaby thing to do, then that's a crybaby thing to do. Maybe they SHOULDN'T be playing games if they react that way, but the fact remains that they ARE. They're part of the gaming public no matter how stupid they are. And you're right in your second point. If everyone just wants these rares for bragging rights, the right to hold their rarest weapons over people of higher levels than them and say "Haw haw, look at my rare rare rare weapons!!", then they would be very pissed at duping. I couldn't care less, personally, I just want to use those weapons, not brag with them. Second, if you wanted to be special and stand out a bit, why not use some different equipment? Hell, why not use a cool-arsh mag! Me? I have a Madhu, a cutesy little purple bug thing. I have not once seen another Ranger with one, and I've only seen one force with one. I feel kind of special, and better than I would if I had those twin long-nosed skeleton things that EVERYBODY has.

[ScaraB]

"twin long nose skeleton things" LOL, I had that mag for a while and hated it, right about when the mag guide came out here at PSO world. I took charge of that bastard and evolved it into a different form .. its now a Varaha (sp?), which kind of looks like a cross between a flattened out jet engine and insect-like wing covers (maybe I just think that cause my character's name hehe). Anyway I certainly appreciate your point about having weapons just to use em and flatten hordes of beasts. Its not that I want to lord over low level players and brag and flaunt an ultra rare weapon ... it's more a symbol of your dedication to the game, a reward that for playing so long you finally got something special, and sure there's a little pride involved. It is a game of community after all, and it seems only right that those with the most dedication and time put in should get the best stuff. Thats what I feel has been ruined .... and it really does make me a little sad because this was an aspect of the game I really enjoyed.

Anyway, if all youre concerned about is dealing damage, a common rare like a Varista, Visk, Crush Bullet, etc or even high level regular guns like lasers with a high percentage is usually your best bet anyway. Some dude came into a game in the mines with the egg blaster for example, and he's dealing around a hundred points per hit, whereas my Varista with 60% machine is tearing the droids apart for 250 to 400 per hit.

[Daminite]

I think stealing is worse, but hell its just a game. Some people just dupe items that there afraid of loosing.

[Pneophen]

I would be on the stealing is worse side but something that happened to me changed that opinion.

ive never really cared about duping at all. what changed it was that i was in a game that had people jumping in and out of it.what was a real bummer is that within a 30 minute period 3 different people that had been on the team i was on happened to have a heaven punishment. very annoying

[Lash]

First of all, Stealing and duping are both bad, in my opinion, and I never plan to do either. That said, duping is worse, and I'll get to why in a minute.

But as for stealing, you people have been making the unfortunate mistake of grouping stealing into one category, there are in fact 2 very distinct types of cheating.

One type, picking weapons off rotting corpses while their owners stare at a rediculous red screen and wet their pants, is supposed to be there, Sonic Team put it there. About a week ago somebody took the oppurtunity of my untimely death to gorge himself on my Chain Sawd+30(legit), and sure, my first reaction was to be mad, but then I just said hey, I have other weapons. This form of stealing is not, in it's purest form, bad in the slightest. I think grave robbery adds a certain element of risk to the game, and that's how Sonic Team meant it to be. But here's what pisses me off, after perloining your shiny weapon off of your corpse, 99.99% of thieves choose that moment to leave the game. They finish the day with their appropriate fill of PSO, and then sign on to this message board or others like it. And in strings such as this one, they argue that there's nothing wrong with stealing, because Sonic Team meant it to be there. WHAT... THE... FUCK???(Pardon my French) If there's nothing wrong with grave robbery, than why do you get the hell out of Dodge as soon as you pilfer your shiny new item? Hmm? Thieves out there? (Silence) I thought so... All thieves who say stealing isn't wrong, it's just bulshit posturing, they know it's wrong, or else they'd stay and play after they took your item, and then maybe more people would be okay with it.

The second type of stealing, is NOT meant to happen by Sonic Team, but obviously when they didn't incorporate a trading system, they knew it would happen. This is jacking people during a trade. And this I absolutely despise, because of how underhanded it is. Thieves in PSO are just as bad as any sort of criminal, except their crimes have no real effect. Saying you will trade a Stag Cutlery +15 for a Delsabers Buster+9, and then dropping a Wand +2 is not exactly the most humane thing to do. I have seen people post that thieves rule PSO, and I have to take a long minute out of my day to have a good laugh at their expense. Hey guys, PSO is a "Global Online COMMUNITY" there are those of us who don't give jack shit about you. I have met some very good people online who share my common passion for this game and will continue to play it whether or not you "Rule PSO." I have a mental image of some 26 year old living in his mom's basement(Don't be offended if it's you, but just take it to heart) running up and grabbing a [line of code] from someone and then running away screaming "Sucker!"([also a line of code]) Then this John Doe would have a good chuckle to himself, have a nice stroke session to the latest hit from Porntown USA(Or taped Ally McBeal episodes if you're "that type of guy") Then come on here and actually have the nerve to brag about their exploits! Wow, what is the world coming to?

So to sum up the stealing part of my post:
Graverobbing-Ok, but stick around and play for a while if there's nothing wrong with it.

Trade fraud- I'm disgusted, you people should be shot or atleast forced to wear clean underwear.

Now if you thought my rant about stealing was harsh, remember I think duping is WORSE.
(This is identical to a post on another board, but it goes with this, so I hope nobody finds out I quoted myself word for word. Oops...)

Duping pisses me off so bad, because most everyone is either duping or is getting duped items, and most of the time they know it. I am a lvl75, and I have to watch people 20,30 levels lower than me walking around with Lavis cannons to spare and lvl 999 opa opa's or chao. And I have to feel like an idiot with my lvl200 Soniti that I spent hours and hours raising, and then spent time finding a cell, and then fed it to him. I felt an overwhelming sense of accomplishment when I reached 200, and then an even greater one when I celled it, but then I took a look around. What the fuck? In the last two days, two of my closest PSO friends with levels in their 40s were "given" lvl999 chaos, and I have to sit there and listen as they spout about how they can equip their heavens punishment now. And then they give me their power materials, because poor little me 30 levels higher hasn't maxed his stats out yet(What a loser... What planet has he been living on?) What, because I believe in a pure gaming experience... I have been playing RPGs for the better part of my natural life, and this is one of the finest I have ever played, but heede my warnings when I say dupers will ruin this game. Not only does it flood the game with rares, and make low level characters far more powerful than they should be, it puts us honest folks at a disadvantage. When I want to trade with someone, and so does someone else, what are they going to take? My Double Saber or the other guys's Lavis Cannon? Hmm... So honest guys like me get stuck right where the sun don't shine by people trying to "enhance their gaming experience" Jesus Christ people, it's not fucking LSD here, why can't you just enjoy the game for the game, and not ruin it for the rest of us? Capeesh? And then I have to make my friends listen to my tirade about how duping steals the game. And they say, "But how can you be sure my lvl999 mag is duped, the guys said it wasn't"!!! Wake up and smell the fucking folgers! It's not like lvl999 chaos grow on trees, so anyone with an honest penny to his name is not going to give it away, especially not to you. To summarize my whole point, PEOPLE WHO SAY DUPING ONLY EFFECTS YOU IF YOU LET IT SHOULD BE SHOT. It effects you if you are honest, and you ever want to make a trade, you just can't do it. So unless you want to spend your time playing offline, or just in sealed games with friends you know don't dupe, then DUPING DOES RUIN THE GAME FOR EVERYONE!

My conclusion: The only form of cheating that is not completely backwards and low is Grave Robbing, because it was meant to be there. What is worse? Duping.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lash
SKYLY
HUmar
LvL75
www.geocities.com/hardcorebh/home.html

Resistance
Is
Futile


<font size=1>[ This message was edited by: Lash on 2001-03-14 01:22 ]</font>

[Vegeetz]

Everyone needs to chill for a second...

If you say dupin is wrong that is fine, cause it is to a certain extent. If you dont want to have duped items in your collection of goodies, then dont trade at all. Cause 80 percent of the items on PSO are duped and hacked. If you don't like people strolling in to your game with a level 30 character and holding a spread needle. Don't join public games. Go create an Hunters Guild with respectable people or friends at school. Thats if you do have a social life and actual friends at school. And if your friends from school sport around Opa Opas at level 999, and you dont have one, maybe you should stop thinking about PSO, and think about who your friends really are. If I was your friend, Id find you a opa opa, or atleast ask you if you need or want to try one out.

Simple solutions to simple questions no?

And please dont say, " I never cheated "

Cause that is PURELY bullshit,

Do you brush your teeth twice a day everyday for 4 minutes?
If not you are just cheating yourself out of healthy teeth.

Heh.

Cheating has been around for a long time, YES even before PSO!!! Back in the days of Diablo and the infamous dupe trick.

And who ever wrote about that 26 year old living in the basement, that is golden.

I would imagine a 10~12 year old using a game shark that "mommy" bought for him last chirstman. With the game shark, they can go around with nick names liek " Dark Phaton, or Evil Warriror ( not to name any names hehe ) and pretend they own the PSO community cause the dupe and hack. I can tell these guys will never get "bon3d" by ANY living being.

And for the people that steal, you are whats wrong with society. I too fucking pay taxes, and its people liek you that keep jacking that shit in to the air.

And when you "steal my shit" don't think that anonimity will save you. Your just another lamer that finds himself in the shadows of others in life. ANd you magically change into someone that is no passive on PSO.

If you use a gameshark keep your shit in your own yard, dont bring it to mine. PERIOD.

If you steal, go steal shit that is actually worth something, just cause you dont have an outdoor life doesnt mean you have to sit on pso servers claiming to make trades and run off with the items. Go rob a liquor store get some cash and buy them ripped off items that are selling on ebay. Lol.

And for the grave robbers, you make the dupers look good. Noone likes an item whore ( people that run grabbing all the items in the ruins ) or grave robbers.

But seriously guys and gals.

Leave the dupers and stealers alone...

They have been punished already...

I mean. . . who wants to look like a lamer with pimples growing out of his face and have boney bodies. And wears underwear that has his name written on it.

Lol.

Everyone happy now??

Thats what I thought..

Just wait for PSO 2, Sega will fix all the boo boos..

[Lash]

Haha dupers of the world, just haha.

The latest news is that Sega will now be cracking down on dupers by detecting Gameshark and XPloder codes, and by detecting an old version of your character. And what will happen when you get caught? From what I've heard, those using codes will simply have their ID numbers banned. Which is much worse than the other consequence, but the other is far more fitting. From what I've heard, people trying to dupe with copies of their character will now have their inventories deleted, and replaced with the basic equipment for their class. That means you'll end up with a lvl5 mag, a few mates and fluids, and either a saber/handgun/or wand. Now this is just cruel, but amusing at the same time, and if Sega actually does this, I will have to tip my hat to them for coming up with the best possible punishment for an item duper.
When and if Sega does this I hope to see losers who dupe popping up on these message boards, saying how Sega sucks for deleting all their items. Well, if you hadn't been duping in the first place, you'd still have some items wouldn't you? Maybe not every item in the game, and a spare of each, but atleast you'd have a mag that wasn't(insane cackling)level5!LOL...
Hopefully Sega will enact these new programs to stop cheating, and I hope as soon as possible for the good of all humanity.

As for Vegeetz, who presented his own image of the gameshark loser, you are absolutely right man and I salute you for bringing it up. I was in my local gaming store the other day (true story) and a woman in probably her mid-40s came in and asked for a Dreamcast Gameshark for her son(probably about 10~12), now the clerk, whom I had been having a conversation with, casually asked what game it was for, and can you guess her response? I bet you can... Anyways, the clerk tried to convince her that letting her son cheat on PSO was a bad idea, because Sega was going to be cracking down on people who use it. But this lady would have nothing of it, she said her son had told her he wanted to be the best PSO player out there(no joke) and to do that he needed to get every item and be level 100. Now, the clerk reluctantly sold her the Gameshark and once she was gone we had a good chuckle at the kid's expense.
"He'll regret that later"
"I hope he doesn't plan to sign online"
So Vegeetz, you are absolutely right with your portrait of the typical duper. However, my chilling portralay of the 26-year old with the soild drawers living in his mom's basement was supposed to represent the typical thief. Either way, all dupers should be rounded up, placed in a confined area and massacred (or have their PSO IDs deleted if you prefer a more conservative approach). That's just my feelings on the issue, stealing and dupind both ruin this game.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lash
SKYLY
HUmar
LvL75
www.geocities.com/hardcorebh/home.html

Resistance
Is
Futile

[cbwing0]

Whoa! Looks like someone is bitter! Thank you for the amusing portaits of what you hope most cheaters and thieves really look like, but let's try to be serious (or at least mature) for a second. It seems that there are basically two types of players who are complaing about 2 different problems here:

The first is the guy who lost his best weapon when someone looted his corpse and ran, then immediately logged on the PSO World to put in his 2 cents about how stealing is worse than duping. While I agree that stealing is worse than duping, stealing isn't really that bad, whether you lost your item trading or just by playing carelessly. Remember, there is no point in comparing stealing i the real world to stealing in a game such as PSO. Both do hurt others, both are cruel and selfish, and both are frowned upon by most upstanding citizens/gamers. Stealing in PSO, however, carries no real consequences, so it isn't nearly as horrible. The only thing that will be hurt if someone steals your precious heaven punishment is your bragging rights for having a nice weapon. You won't lost your house, and you won't go to jail, and, more importantly, there is nothing anyone can do to FORCE you to give it back. A few days ago is was playing with some mid-level (40's and 60's) with my level 87 HUmar in the ruins of v-hard. We were all having fun and playing honorably, until a Japanese player joined and stole someone's spread needle. That player was only level 54 and the sneedle was their best weapon, so they were really pissed, but they couldn't ask the other guy to give it back, because he didn't speak english (If Sega really intended stealing to be such a major part of the game, then why didn't they include a pre-set phrase such as, "please return my item," or, "Give it back?") The Japanese player didn't leave the game, and when we went back to town, he waited until the player he stole from was watching, and quickly dropped and picked up the item several times, said "thank you" and left. I'm sure there are countless horror stories similar to this one, but the point is that stealing is only fun for a thief.

Duping, on the other hand, can actually be beneficial. Another player (this time somone that I knew from before PSO) fell victim to the infamous BSOD, and lost all of his items, as wel as his save file. He had played for close to 100 hours, and had acquired several choice weapons. Feeling sorry for him, I duped some of my items to give to him so that he could have a little help in the cruel, cruel, world of PSO. Was he pissed? Did he yell at me for taking value away from the item? Of course not! As it was said in another post, new players usually don't care if they get duped items, only that they had a little help from another player.

If you trade duped items, they that may be just a little more unethical. Trading a duped item for someone else's legit item isn't fair (but who said life was fair, lol) and this is almost worse than stealing, although, in a way, it is stealing. You get to keep your item while the other player loses whatever he traded (unless he had legit copies), and got a valueless item. Why, then, is this not worse than stealing? When you steal, such as by trading a momomate that was supposedly a mag cell for an orotiagito, then you have given something to a player that has little or no value to them, whereas a duped item is still just powerful, and looks exactly the same as an original. Duping may hurt the level 90 player who wasted 300+ hours looking for rares, but it doesn't hurt the "community". After 48 other posts saying the same thing in one form or another, I think it is time to put this issue to rest, because no one is going to change their mind, dupers will keep duping (until Sega stops them, which won't happen, no matter how much propaganda they release to scare cheaters), and thieves will still be item whores.

If you want to play with an honest player who wont't steal from you or screw you with bad trades, then look for my character:
Mega Man
level 89, Blue HUmar
I usually play in Ariel or Ophelia, and I am always willing to help new players get started or take a level 1 person to see Dark Falz for the first time.

[Troll]

Duping is not good. But cheating is worse. I condone duping in certain circumstances - if you got something stolen, or if you had bsod for example. Lets say you were at lvl 80 and had all of the top of the line stuff and got bsod. If you used gs to get back up there i dont personally mind unless you make your character a super lvl 80 guy with 10000 HP and perfect everything. Sega is going too far with banning serial #'s. If they ban my number for any reason (although i havent done anything wrong unless someone traded me a dupe) then i'd just go to my local video store and 'borrow' their code as most video stores dont give you the access key (mine dont at least).

[zanza]

WHEN I FIRST STARTED PLAYING PSO
I WAS HELPED BY SHARKERS/HACKERS.
I NEVER REALLY KNEW WHAT THE HELL ALL
THE HOOPLA WAS ABOUT THE SO CALLED "ECONOMY" THING.
(AFTER ALL ITS A GAME.)
AS MY HRS PILED AND MY EXPERIENCE GREW
I WAS STARTING TO REALIZE WHAT
ALL THE NOISE WAS ABOUT.
(IM A SURVIVOR OF BSOD AND NOW AT LVL83
WITH ALL LEGIT ITEMS. AS FAR AS I KNOW...)
IT WAS JUST CRAZY GOING INTO A TEAM
TO HELP MY BUDDY OUT WHEN A LVL27 WITH
A SPREAD-NEEDLE COMES IN AND STARTS SHOOTING UP THE PLACE!
TO TOP IT OFF HE HAD A SONITI MAG,
THE SAME AS MINE! WHAT THE HELL!?!!?
LVL27 WITH UBER RARES!?!?!
THE LITTLE BASTERD WAS EVEN CHALLENGING
ME, SAYING HE WAS STRONGER AND COULD WHOOP ME!!!
THAT WAS MEMORABLE......
BUT THE ONE MEMORY THAT STILL AND ALWAYS WILL STICK IN MY HEAD IS WHEN
MY EGGBLASTER WAS STOLEN FROM ME.....
NO, I WASNT A CORPSE.
IT WAS DURING A TRADE. I WAS A NEWBIE.
I "TRUSTED" PEOPLE. I WAS BURNED.
IT CHANGED MY WHOLE VIEW OF PSO.
I ACTUALLY STARTED TO FEEL WHAT I'VE NEVER FELT FOR ANY GAME.
"RAGE" UNCONTROLLED ANGER!
MY GAMING EXPERIENCE HAS BEEN HARDENED.
AND I HAVEN'T PLAYED A PUBLIC GAME SINCE....

[zanza]

(OFF-TOPIC)
KNOW WHAT'S FUNNY? IT'S HOW SEGA HIRES PEOPLE TO GATHER "BIASED" OPINIONS INSTEAD OF HAVING THE GENERAL PUBLIC PUT IN THEIR REMARKS ABOUT ALL THIS CRAP THATS BEEN HAPPENING..... SEGA SURE KNOWS HOW TO RUN A BUSINESS...OOPS. I MEAN FORMER BUSINESS....

(BACK TO TOPIC)
THIEVES SUCK ASS CRACK...WHY?
IF YOU GET JACKED,
YOU ARE DIRECTLY AFFECTED.]
DUPERS? THEY AFFECT THE SO-CALLED
"VIRTUAL MARKET"(ahem...lame...)
ITS BAD. BUT IT DOESN'T HURT YOUR PROGRESS IN THE GAME.
EX: OH NO! A DUPE!
{WARNING SIGN POPS UP: A DUPE!}
WILL THE MONSTER KNOW THAT HE'S BEING DESTROYED BY A DUPE?..."sigh"....
I SAY GET RID OF THE DUPE
(LIKE I DID) AND GET ON WITH ASSKICKING
IF YOU FEEL SO SCREWED ABOUT IT!

[Alan]

what happens if you get caught with a duped item as my friend is going to trade me a duped item but i am gonna say no and get him to get a legit one! i just wana be safe, and can pallasch's go up tp +25?

[Omege12]

im not saying duping is a good thing, but all it does is decrease the value of an item, that's it. stealing is totally different. too take something away from another person, to take their possesion, and then call it yours. that is stealing. it is horrible to say duping is worse that stealing!

[Stixxx]

i dup muchfor the same reasons troll outlined... hey sega made a game thet could wipe you for no reason whatsoever... whens the last time your skies of arcadia file got corupted... and wiped itself clean??

iv invested over 450hours on this game.. i'll be damed if i get wiped i wont be back in it w/ in an hour or 2

most of the dupin talk has been of weapons... but what about materias..

my buddy D lost his lvl 80+ char/ not sure how.. the whole file was gone... anyways w/in an hour we had his new lvl 1 hunter's ata maxed out and gave him a spread needle and some of the backup weps we have..(lvl 1's used for storage) he used the spread to lvl.. and sticks to himself.. he wants to get back to 80.. then hes ditchin the needle... and he'll be back to where he was.. (think hes lvl 50 + now)

now i havnt affected anyones game what so ever.. just his.. and he wanted me to...

but some dupers who sell on ebay n stuff like that.. that kinda makes me mad... but who am i to jugde.. for i am just like them... for i am a cheater.. and i have cheated....

stealin is waaay worse in my mind... heck i had a double saber i found.. had a neg % against abeast.. so i decided to go to a rare trade room and see what i could get for it...

all they had was varistas and db's .. so i decided to give it to one of them..as a gift..

i set it on the ground.. and said here a present... but b4 i could hit the enter key.. one person who thought i was tradin... ran up.. took it and started runnin...

he said sumpthin stoopid like HAHAHAH i fooled you!!

my reply was.. to bad you took it... now you dont get the chain sawd..

cheaters are cheaters.. but theives are immoral a$sholes...

[AK404]

An argument here.

Duping makes rare items less rare, correct? Then what's the problem? There is a "wealth of items" to be found in the world of PSO, and this supply of rares and uniques is not static or shrinking, but increasing, exponentially, every day. It's not as if we have a limited supply of these things, OK?

Somewhere out there, someone's found another Spread Needle, another Lavis Cannon, another D-Parts. Dupers are simply making this treasure trove of items grow faster. It doesn't matter if it's duped or legit, what matters is that so long as it falls within the parameters of "legal item" (like 9K God/HP++ for example), it exists. What makes the items unique are their affinities, slots, and slight differences due to photons, but otherwise, dupers are really doing nothing to the game that time and chance would have done already.

Theives, on the other hand, well...when's the last time stealing was a moral thing? All crimes, felonies, and misdemeanors are based around the principle that some form of dishonesty has been inflicted upon the victim.

It's not worse than duping: dupers cheat the system and themselves out of a more satisfying gameplay experience, and neither feel as if they're worse off for it (because if they did feel badly about it, then they wouldn't do it all the time), but theives hurt other players. Nobody feels as if their night's been shot if they get a duped Spread Needle dropped at their feet, but man, you get on of your items stolen, legit or not, that just hurts, simply because of the pure principle of the thing. The first time I was robbed, that just about ruined the gameplay experience for me. I can't play with anyone but friends and people referred to me by my friends, legits and dupers alike. Wanna trust your next stranger after your weapon's been stolen? Think you can look at any player you don't know in the same way again? That's what stealing does to your game. Duping's just an annoyance.

[NewTsumetai]

ive said it once...and ill say it again..stealers make me laugh...and dupers are the reason for this...say for example i get a spread needle stolen...i laugh instead of pout...cause i know for a fact that there r dupers..like my friends..and i...that can get me another one...its NOT the end of the world if yer jacked...just come see me and ill hook u up..my chars names are New Tsumetai lvl 100...and Akurei lvl 30...

[AK404]

Do me a big ol' favor, Tsu. Hook me up with some D-Parts; I'm sick of looking/getting cheated for them. The slotted kind. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/icon_biggrin.gif

[NewTsumetai]

If i can get my hands on some...u bet...anythin for a fellow michigander....lol

[cbwing0]

Stealing is worse than duping, but neither are really that bad. Duping really doesn't affect anybody, and stealing is an important aspect of the game. Duping is good sometimes, because it keeps players from having to spend 300+ hours hunting for rares, and allows them to spend more time playing, which is what the whole purpose of a GAME. Stealing was put into the game intentionally by Sega to provide some penalty for death/stupidity. Here's an example: My friend created a character called IB Stealin'. The whole purpose of this character was to see how other players would react, and, suprisingly, many people still trusted such a character. Anyone who trust a character named IB Stealin' is a total dumbass who deserves to have their items stolen. The only way that you can be stolen from is if you are overconfident (trying to fight dark falz at level 5) , or stupid (trusting other player who seem suspicious). Now, this may take some credibility away from my arguements in the eyes of some, but I want to advertise my Thieves' Guild. Just contact [email protected] for more info.