FT vs Masterforces? (Honestly...)

[EienRozen]

TP (Based on Lvl 140 male newman, Lvl 20 *class*)
Fortetecher-2491
Masterforce-2162
_________________________________
Spell name: Fortetecher and Masterforce Damage (average)
Level 40 spell-damage percent at spell level
Level 50 spell-damage percent at spell level
Percent difference of 10 spell levels
_________________________________

Foie: FT-6975 MF-6486
Lv40-280
Lv50-300
20%

Megid: FT-4359 MF-4000
Lv40-175
Lv50-185
10%

Dambarta: FT-3487 MF-3459
Lv40-140
Lv50-160
20%

Damdiga: FT-3737 MF-3675
Lv40-150
Lv50-170
20%

Noszonde: FT-4732 MF-4756
Lv40-190
Lv50-220
30%

Regrant: FT-2989 MF-3243
Lv40-120
Lv50-150
30%

As we can plainly see, unless the percent difference (in the 10 extra spell levels) is ~30%+ Fortetecher does more raw damage.
Now 41+ Ra- spells hit one extra target, but so do the fortetechers Ra- spells anyways.
Masterforces use more PP per spell, and higher level spells cost even more,
and even with the very slight PP regeneration bonus, it is a far cry from the 20% less PP per cast the Fortetecher gets. VERY energy ineffecient.
As for the spell casting bonus speed the Masterforce gets, it is completely decimated by a Fortetecher with a Har/Quick, as they have more TP to start with. Sure this takes up your head slot (and a possible TP bonus for the Masterforce to compensate with), but why even cast faster if you can't keep stocked on Photon charges (10 max omg...)
Even with the Masterforces damage sometimes peaking over the Fortetechers in a very raw formula, it was done completely leaving out the +20% damage bonus from Rods that the Fortetechers get and the masterforces do not.

With all this said as a masterforce you will get:
Less Health
Less ATP
Less ATA
Less TP (Wtf?)
More DFP
Less EVP (literally half)
More MST
Less END (-2)
No bonus to Newmans, so no +3% :(
+10 Damage spell levels, in exchange for -30 Support skill levels.
and new spell effects/graphics (YAY!)

I don't get it.
I mean sure, your spells will look a little bit cooler,
but by comparison Masterforces suck.(In my personal opinion)
So why?
Why play a Masterforce?

[Wolfette]

it was done completely leaving out the +20% damage bonus from Rods that the Fortetechers get and the masterforces do not.

Rod does 20% bonus damage.
It's a weapon spec, not job spec.
In term of DPS, MF > FT coz' of casting speed.

thats all.
the damage / pp loss ratio is less good, however.

Actually, MF is pretty weak, as is FT, but FT can also have a role support.
With the future update, MF will have a true role of DD.

/topic.

[EienRozen]

Rod does 20% bonus damage.
It's a weapon spec, not job spec.


Uh ->http://psupedia.info/Fortetecher
For fortetechers, they get an ADDITIONAL +20% for damage spells from rods.

[Libram]

Couple questions:

1. Don't the quick units speed up Masterforce casting time as well?
2. Isn't the 20% TECH boost for just rods as a weapon, not Fortetecher exclusive?

[VetroDrago]

Yes my masterforce with har quick is really fast. Why do I play MF? Well besides the speed (fav part) and the 41+ techs, I love the challenge and I like playing types that are often frowned upon.

[EienRozen]

Yea the quicks speed up Masterforce too, but at the cost of -100 TP, which they already have less of. (That was my main point there.)
And I put in a link to psupedia that plainly states the %20 bonus to Rods is a seperate (possibly stackable?) bonus, different from the +12% bonus rods themselves get. Fortetecher only.

[Libram]

Har/Smart doesn't reduce PP, and since it gives a reduction in range you're less likely to overshoot a Ra TECH. With the insane range a MF gets with their Ras all you need to do is point it in a group's direction and hit everything, and as they're all flinching from the hit the MF can hit them again and not worry about the enemy suddenly breaking free.

I'm a little suspect about that link. I remember for the longest time people made sure to put that Rods, not FTs, would get a boost to any TECH cast from that weapon.

[Turb0]

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure that 20% rod bonus is talking about the rod power boost we got maybe a year ago. Rods didn't use to be that powerful and DPS-wise wands and tech mags were better so they gave all spells a 20% boost when cast with a rod. (Meaning force and masterforce would have it too)

[EienRozen]

Har/Smart doesn't reduce PP, and since it gives a reduction in range you're less likely to overshoot a Ra TECH. With the insane range a MF gets with their Ras all you need to do is point it in a group's direction and hit everything, and as they're all flinching from the hit the MF can hit them again and not worry about the enemy suddenly breaking free.

That is actually a good idea, I give you that. I was unaware of that item.
Still, the damage output would be around the same as a Fortetecher with the same items.


I'm a little suspect about that link. I remember for the longest time people made sure to put that Rods, not FTs, would get a boost to any TECH cast from that weapon.

I noticed the difference myself, though I'm not sure they stack.

Gotta sleep. Will reply to thread tomorrow.
'Night.

[stukasa]

IMO you need to take advantage of MF's speed to get the most out of the class. That means using a Har / Smart (or Quick) and tech-mags as your primary weapon. Now that we can get weapon badges at Innocent Girl you can get a few Pushans if you don't have some already. Save your rods for the "hold techs" (Nos- & Dam- techs, mainly). Use your tech-mags for everything else.

The level 50 techs, wider range, extra target, and casting speed are the main selling points of MF. You're right that their stats look worse on paper but I'm still killing enemies faster as a MF than I did as a FT.

[syouz]

my female newman fortetecher does 100 more damage whit ramegid than my friend masterforce he has a female newman too same lvl 150/20 but he hit 1 more mob..

and Honestly.. a masterforce whit a har /quick(smart) is just a noob for real masterforce don't need more speed try a orpa /force red force (never try a hizeri / concentrate that its just a bad joke from segac) and you will see the masterforce true potential...

[beatrixkiddo]

Rod bonus isn't class-specific, FT has no inherent Rod boost.

41+ Ra techs hit 5, Fortetechers can only hit up to 4 (31+).

And the speed boost makes MF worth it.

[Sazan]

At the moment MF is all about flashy techs. Some 41+ look really really nice.
But after the update that brings TP-boost and limitbreaks things will radically change.

[hunterseifer]

At the moment MF is all about flashy techs. Some 41+ look really really nice.
But after the update that brings TP-boost and limitbreaks things will radically change.

This :roll:

[Ezodagrom]

With all this said as a masterforce you will get:
Less Health
Less ATP
Less ATA
Less TP (Wtf?)
More DFP
Less EVP (literally half)
More MST
Less END (-2)
No bonus to Newmans, so no +3% :(
+10 Damage spell levels, in exchange for -30 Support skill levels.
and new spell effects/graphics (YAY!)

I don't get it.
I mean sure, your spells will look a little bit cooler,
but by comparison Masterforces suck.(In my personal opinion)
So why?
Why play a Masterforce?
After the supplemental update the JP version got, Masterforce has:
Less Health, but the difference between them is quite a bit smaller (MF has 100% HP mod instead of 85%, FT keeps a 112% HP mod).
Less ATP (useless for techers)
Less ATA (useless for techers)
More TP (MF got a TP boost from 152% to 175%, FT TP doesn't change, still 170%)
More DFP
More EVP (MF Evp got increased to 230%, FT EVP got increased to...210% >_>)
More MST
Less STA
Speed Boost
FT gets the costumization option to increase offensive techs to lvl 41+, but MF gets the limit breaks (10% boost for Barta, Zonde and Megid, extra targets for Foie and Diga) and also the option to get lvl 20 support techs.

In the end, I think the TP boost to Masterforce was too much, or FT should also have got a small increase in TP (15% at most, 170% to 185% TP).
In my opinion, since Fortefighter does more raw damage than Fighmaster (185% ATP for FF, 168% ATP for FM) and Fortegunner does more raw damage than Gunmaster (170% ATP for FG, 150% ATP for GM), Fortetecher should also do more raw damage than Masterforce (10% higher TP for FT compared to MF would be good enough, in my opinion).
MF doing an higher raw damage while being faster at the same time, is a bit unfair, right?...>_>;

[dexter_safe]

were masterforce much stronger than foretecher in the japan ps2/pc servers when they got that big update?

nvm im a slow typer >.>

[unicorn]

MF doing an higher raw damage while being faster at the same time, is a bit unfair, right?...>_>;

Yeah I agree with this. I didn't get why MF does more raw damage than FT after the supplemental update. Especially since FT does not have access to Limit Breaks (which is a big slap in the face since teching is what FTs do 95% of the time).

[DreXxiN]

MF has better DPS. Found this out easily with about a 5 minute test against non-element enemies and elemental enemies. Period.

Syouz please stop posting info about how to be a good masterforce. Forever.

[EienRozen]

Wow. All bases covered.
You guys sold me.
The speed really is enticing,
and I didn't know about har / smart before.
Not to mention, that JP patch brings out the "Master" in Masterforce.
I am so glad this thread didn't bring flaming,
or stupidity.

Thank you all for a very pleasant discussion,
and for knowing your stuff ^.^

[RemiusTA]

TP (Based on Lvl 140 male newman, Lvl 20 *class*)
Fortetecher-2491
Masterforce-2162
_________________________________
Spell name: Fortetecher and Masterforce Damage (average)
Level 40 spell-damage percent at spell level
Level 50 spell-damage percent at spell level
Percent difference of 10 spell levels
_________________________________

Foie: FT-6975 MF-6486
Lv40-280
Lv50-300
20%

Megid: FT-4359 MF-4000
Lv40-175
Lv50-185
10%

Dambarta: FT-3487 MF-3459
Lv40-140
Lv50-160
20%

Damdiga: FT-3737 MF-3675
Lv40-150
Lv50-170
20%

Noszonde: FT-4732 MF-4756
Lv40-190
Lv50-220
30%

Regrant: FT-2989 MF-3243
Lv40-120
Lv50-150
30%

As we can plainly see, unless the percent difference (in the 10 extra spell levels) is ~30%+ Fortetecher does more raw damage.
Now 41+ Ra- spells hit one extra target, but so do the fortetechers Ra- spells anyways.
Masterforces use more PP per spell, and higher level spells cost even more,
and even with the very slight PP regeneration bonus, it is a far cry from the 20% less PP per cast the Fortetecher gets. VERY energy ineffecient.
As for the spell casting bonus speed the Masterforce gets, it is completely decimated by a Fortetecher with a Har/Quick, as they have more TP to start with. Sure this takes up your head slot (and a possible TP bonus for the Masterforce to compensate with), but why even cast faster if you can't keep stocked on Photon charges (10 max omg...)
Even with the Masterforces damage sometimes peaking over the Fortetechers in a very raw formula, it was done completely leaving out the +20% damage bonus from Rods that the Fortetechers get and the masterforces do not.

With all this said as a masterforce you will get:
Less Health
Less ATP
Less ATA
Less TP (Wtf?)
More DFP
Less EVP (literally half)
More MST
Less END (-2)
No bonus to Newmans, so no +3% :(
+10 Damage spell levels, in exchange for -30 Support skill levels.
and new spell effects/graphics (YAY!)

I don't get it.
I mean sure, your spells will look a little bit cooler,
but by comparison Masterforces suck.(In my personal opinion)
So why?
Why play a Masterforce?

Flawed.

First off :

-The 10 levels of technic damage do more than raise elemental %, i believe. The base damage increases as well.

-The extra 1 level you get past 40 is about as equal for Technics as it is for the 1 level past 20 for Striking PAs. Almost all technics gain either
-lv5 SE (Burn, freeze, shock, incapaticate, serious business.)
-Extra target (Even more spread damage. Raises damage potental for every ra- technic you have far past fortetecher potental.)
-Foie and Diga get extra hitboxes (which means your Foie/Diga will instantly outdamage any number a fortetecher can produce)
- Range also gets a drastic increase in most cases.

And you're also leaving off one of the most important things
- speed increase for Masterforce technic casting.
- Also, 20% bonus on fortetecher is NOT fortetecher exclusive. Its Rod exclusive.
- LIMIT BREAKS. Also instantly increases damage potental far beyond fortetecher.
- EVP is definately HIGHER than fortetecher? Dont know where you got lower from. Increases block rate, since being a force gives crap HP anyway, might as well give greater ability to flatout negate damage.


Masterforce is FAR superior to Fortetecher in terms of damage. This is why its called a "MASTER" class -- noobs who know nothing about technics and being effective with them will not get very much out of it. They specifically raised the things that are important to techers. Nobody cares about 50-100 points of damage when they are hitting more targets / hitboxes than you.


Basically, bottom line is this.

FT, Rafoie lv 40, hitting group of enemies = 4 targets x 2500 dmg = 10,000 damage total.

MF, Rafoie lv 41, hitting group of enemies = 5 targes x 2200 dmg = 11,000 damage total.

or,

FT, Diga lv 40, group of enemies = 1 target, 3000 dmg.
MF, Diga lv 50, group of enemies = 2 targets, 2500 dmg = 5000 dmg.
(Extreme case. An FT will never outdamage an MF like this.)

Targets can easily turn 100-200 points of damage into thousands. Take into consideration that most masterforces dont do 200 less than fortetechers, and you have your answer.

[Thor131]

Another reason is that some people don’t like to buff so they play as MF for the attack spells.

[Segya]

@RemiusTA:
that was mentioned already, and you forgot to note that you are talking mostly about post supplemental update facts, while the person you quoted talked about pre supplemental update statistics.

And your bottom line is somewhat flawed in that way, because post update MF raw damage output will be higher than FT raw damage. (since MF will get more TP than FT)

[PhdChristmas]

TP (Based on Lvl 140 male newman, Lvl 20 *class*)
Fortetecher-2491
Masterforce-2162
_________________________________
Spell name: Fortetecher and Masterforce Damage (average)
Level 40 spell-damage percent at spell level
Level 50 spell-damage percent at spell level
Percent difference of 10 spell levels
_________________________________

Foie: FT-6975 MF-6486
Lv40-280
Lv50-300
20%

Megid: FT-4359 MF-4000
Lv40-175
Lv50-185
10%

Dambarta: FT-3487 MF-3459
Lv40-140
Lv50-160
20%

Damdiga: FT-3737 MF-3675
Lv40-150
Lv50-170
20%

Noszonde: FT-4732 MF-4756
Lv40-190
Lv50-220
30%

Regrant: FT-2989 MF-3243
Lv40-120
Lv50-150
30%

As we can plainly see, unless the percent difference (in the 10 extra spell levels) is ~30%+ Fortetecher does more raw damage.
Now 41+ Ra- spells hit one extra target, but so do the fortetechers Ra- spells anyways.
Masterforces use more PP per spell, and higher level spells cost even more,
and even with the very slight PP regeneration bonus, it is a far cry from the 20% less PP per cast the Fortetecher gets. VERY energy ineffecient.
As for the spell casting bonus speed the Masterforce gets, it is completely decimated by a Fortetecher with a Har/Quick, as they have more TP to start with. Sure this takes up your head slot (and a possible TP bonus for the Masterforce to compensate with), but why even cast faster if you can't keep stocked on Photon charges (10 max omg...)
Even with the Masterforces damage sometimes peaking over the Fortetechers in a very raw formula, it was done completely leaving out the +20% damage bonus from Rods that the Fortetechers get and the masterforces do not.

With all this said as a masterforce you will get:
Less Health
Less ATP
Less ATA
Less TP (Wtf?)
More DFP
Less EVP (literally half)
More MST
Less END (-2)
No bonus to Newmans, so no +3% :(
+10 Damage spell levels, in exchange for -30 Support skill levels.
and new spell effects/graphics (YAY!)

I don't get it.
I mean sure, your spells will look a little bit cooler,
but by comparison Masterforces suck.(In my personal opinion)
So why?
Why play a Masterforce?

this is all very intresting, and charming, but you forget being a MF is an excuse to not heal and buff.

FT has the edge when it comes to solo capability. You will do enough damage to defeat your enemies, in additon you have like 3x survivalbity over MF's. Not to mention access to A rank 44%+ armors straight up. Longbows too, using leveled long bow shots from a safe distance at a constant rate of fire is more damage vs dragon and aerial bosses than using diga.

I usually just get ont he char that can complete the mission solo most efficently (GM lol). However in event missions where i find myself trying to hunt and level chars at the same time i find myself switching from MF to FT, its just that much easier. I also use debuffs and buffs 31+ and its just plain golden when fighting sub-bosses like svaltus and those 4 legged things that drop Okanoh boards, its like im untouchable, in additon to the high rate of evasion taking all of the above into account, i can take advantage of the "spell cast > evade > spell cast > evade" situation when boxed into a corner by two sub-bosses. When afew Jarbas get in the way (sub bosses that halve magic damage), i just whip out my longbow and laugh as it just sits there staring at me from a distance.

[MT7218]

Simple: I'm playing Masterforce because I have already have Fortetecher capped, and I hate wasting MP.

[Genoa]

If you don't have Techs at 41+, you cannot say that FT is more proficient with attack techniques than MF.
Not to mention, if you look at how the last levels of techs go (41-50) they gain significantly higher damage outputs than their previous level patterns for most of the techniques.
So really you get to see the difference once your techs start getting 45+.

[Randomness]

Why is it that nobody has mentioned that Har/Quick can be equipped on MF yet?
S-rank restriction doesn't apply to units. (Thankfully)

While we're on the topic of MF... how does its casting speed compare to AT?

[Magus_84]

Why is it that nobody has mentioned that Har/Quick can be equipped on MF yet?
S-rank restriction doesn't apply to units. (Thankfully)

While we're on the topic of MF... how does its casting speed compare to AT?

For the same reason that people who make the "FT can use Har/Quick" argument don't seem to realize that the Har- speed boosts and the innate MF/AT speed boost are boosting two separate parts of the animation? >_>

And it's identical to AT on the weapons they can both equip (TCSM/Wand). No way to tell on Rod, as it's the only speed-boosted Rod user.