Proper usage of Cards with a human GT

[New_One]

I've leveled a couple card pa's to 11 for the 3rd bullet, but the only good use i've found with them is killing komazili (sp?). Being able to dodge their annoying insta-sleep balls of death while doing decent damage to them is good. But i can't think of any other times I would use them. Am i missing something with cards?

[Dymalos]

Machineguns will completely supplant the utility of Cards once you're at a higher level. Higher base ATP on your toon will make Machineguns your goto for single target DPS. Cards are pretty superfluous in a GT's arsenal, I'd rate them as only slightly better than a Handgun, about on Par with Twin Handguns in DPS.

[Hrith]

Machineguns are already more powerful than cards, so are crossbows and twin handguns. There's really no point in using cards on Guntecher at all.

[Magus_84]

I disagree that there's "no point" in using Cards on GT. But the entire utility of Cards is contingent on how good you are at doing the "lock-on, break" shuffle to throw more card bullets out there, while keeping them aimed at the same target.

Anyway. They're mainly useful against targets that you want to keep fire on without being in direct line-of-sight, and flying enemies. Zoonas/Shagreece, Komazli/Gaozoran, even the second stage of Maggas Magahna. If it's a situation where you can dodge easily using the other mentioned options...use those instead. If it's not, use Card.

They also mesh far better with a healing wand, as (with Har/Quick or /Smart), you cast fast enough that you can fire a two-shot (6 card) burst, switch to your healstick, heal whomever and switch back by the time you're ready to fire again. Minor tidbit, but occasionally useful.

Additionally, Light element cards are a "strong" element on Card, making them even better by comparison against Gaos.

I wouldn't suggest killing yourself to level all of them, though. All you'd really need are Ground/Light/Fire. Maaaybe Dark if you fight light-element Komazli a lot. Ice/Lightning are only really useful against Zoona and Shagreece, and they drop quickly to any sustained form of bullet damage, on-element or not. They're also sorta rare.

Or you could use Rifle with knockdown...but that's a pain if you've got more than one potential Rifle-user, like I do. GM needs the elemental spread of them more, and hell if I'm leveling two sets to 31/41.)

[New_One]

Thanks for the input, how exactly do you do the trick with cards then? Am I allowed to ask?
Guess i'll level my Machinegun bullets past 11 aswell, could help >_>

Oh yeah, another quick question, I've got Zagenga upto 21 aswell as zak banga. I was doing almost identical damage to ice creatures with both bullets while at full health. Is their any point as of until GT's get 50 bullets in using anything but zagenga? Thanks.

[Hrith]

I disagree that there's "no point" in using Cards on GT. But the entire utility of Cards is contingent on how good you are at doing the "lock-on, break" shuffle to throw more card bullets out there, while keeping them aimed at the same target.Even doing that, they are still weaker.


Anyway. They're mainly useful against targets that you want to keep fire on without being in direct line-of-sight, and flying enemies. Zoonas/Shagreece, Komazli/Gaozoran, even the second stage of Maggas Magahna. If it's a situation where you can dodge easily using the other mentioned options...use those instead. If it's not, use Card.Machineguns hit flying enemies. Cards suck against the second part of Magas Maggahna, you'll hit the arms most of the time; rifles have better DPS in that situation, anyway.


Additionally, Light element cards are a "strong" element on Card, making them even better by comparison against Gaos.Still weaker than Yak Yoga, Twin Rising or Rising Fury.


Or you could use Rifle with knockdown...but that's a pain if you've got more than one potential Rifle-user, like I do. GM needs the elemental spread of them more, and hell if I'm leveling two sets to 31/41.)Hopefully the longbow update will solve that issue.

[biggabertha]

Cards are probably the coolest looking left handed weapons for me after Handgun.

I really wish there was a way I could like Cards better but they're slow... oh-so-slow to fire. Crossbows are much better for damage (and if you use a Cubo Tuma, you can blind your friends (and yourself!)(I can't want for Cubo Simba!!)) and level incredibly quickly.

If Crossbows had splash damage like a Shotgun has then I would have a very difficult decision to make concerning what class I'd use to play... If ST made it so that Lv. 41+ Crossbow does splash damage then I would SO go for it..!

[Hiero_Glyph]

Machineguns hit flying enemies. Cards suck against the second part of Magas Maggahna, you'll hit the arms most of the time; rifles have better DPS in that situation, anyway.

Still weaker than Yak Yoga, Twin Rising or Rising Fury.

What you are missing is that Cards do not need to maintain a direct line to the target in order to deal damage. As such you can fire, fire, strafe to dodge, and quickly fire again without having to put yourself in the line of the object that you are dodging. Twins, Rifle and Machineguns only fire in a straight line however so you either have to dodge and reaim or wait for the object to clear before moving back into the lane. This makes Cards ideal for casters or enemies that move quickly as they auto-lock once fired allowing you to move more freely.

I do agree that Rifles are better in some situations, but not against multiple targets that require constant dodging. Also, once you calculate the time required to dodge into the DPS, Cards win over the rest due that that whole direct line issue. Don't forget that the targeting lock for Cards is much more forgiving than the rest so you can hit an enemy while not having them directly in front of your character.

Anyway, Cards are an acquired taste and require a certain finesse to use properly. As such they are not for everyone but they do indeed fill a role that blends dodging with sustained damage.

[that cast named kai]

like others have said already, cards tend to be a 'niche' weapon for a GT, it has its uses but often enough there may be a better option for the situation, not always but most times

i guess it simply because of the fact that the card is more a 'force' weapon (allows for pretty effective dodge and caste tactics) it shines with FT, AT, WT, along with AF (depending, still unsure why they got it, i suppose it is simply due to Fi getting all the other offhand range options)


i would not give up on them, just try incorporate their usage along with the other options for range likely with something of a pallet choice like this

longbow or rifle
wand or dagger /handgun or mechgun
wand/crossbow or cards
wand/crossbow or cards
twin handguns
wand / tech-mag or twin handguns

this is just a sample, don't have to follow, but it would let you cover the bases of most enemy types

any who, just experiment and see what works out for you best

[Magus_84]

Even doing that, they are still weaker.

Machineguns hit flying enemies. Cards suck against the second part of Magas Maggahna, you'll hit the arms most of the time; rifles have better DPS in that situation, anyway.

Machineguns do hit flying enemies. But Cards do it with less extra movement into their range. Of course, if you can pin one with a mechgun before it attacks, it's done for.

As for Maggas...disregard your feeble GT HP and rush forward to target his body. Throw two shots, then dodge to whichever side seems to offer a better chance of escape. Repeat til he dies. A rifle'd be more consistent (as it always is), but the Card thing's more interesting.


Still weaker than Yak Yoga, Twin Rising or Rising Fury.

Yes, but it allows indirect fire.


Hopefully the longbow update will solve that issue.

I sincerely hope so. Using my rifles on GM so heavily makes me feel weird about using GT without them.


Thanks for the input, how exactly do you do the trick with cards then?

Fire a card while strafing. Release, move slightly and fire another. You can do it the opposite way, too. What you're looking for is basically having two sets of cards in the air at once.

Speeds them up quite a bit. Firing the first at range and moving forward works sorta well, as does firing and moving backwards in the face of an advancing enemy.

If you practice you can manage it by kind of circle-strafing around the enemy, using the "move slightly" period to move to the left or right.

It's useful, but not entirely worth the effort.

[Hrith]

What you are missing is that Cards do not need to maintain a direct line to the target in order to deal damage. As such you can fire, fire, strafe to dodge, and quickly fire again without having to put yourself in the line of the object that you are dodging.But do you need that? I know I never do. I use cards a lot as Acrofighter, and a bit as Acrotecher, I really never need to stay out of the line of sight of anything...


Also, once you calculate the time required to dodge into the DPS, Cards win over the rest due that that whole direct line issue....especially using rifles or bows, since the range of the latters is greater than most (if not all) attacks monsters send your way.


they do indeed fill a role that blends dodging with sustained damage.The thing is, that damage is quite poor (below that of rifles or twin handguns), which is one of the reason I'd rather use something else.


Machineguns do hit flying enemies. But Cards do it with less extra movement into their range. Of course, if you can pin one with a mechgun before it attacks, it's done for.Well, when I play a ranged class, I'm either at rifle/bow range, completely out of harm's way, or in the monster's face using shotguns, crossbows, etc.


As for Maggas...disregard your feeble GT HP and rush forward to target his body. Throw two shots, then dodge to whichever side seems to offer a better chance of escape. Repeat til he dies. A rifle'd be more consistent (as it always is), but the Card thing's more interesting.Hmm, yeah, but why would you do that? Rifles have higher DPS, they allow you to hit that boss a lot easier (huge arena and that boss moves a lot, it's fast and likes to warp), giving another advantage to rifles (or even bows).


Yes, but it allows indirect fire.I really don't see how that can be of any use, but I guess that's me. If you're fighting, say, a Gaozoran, I just rush to it with a crossbow or machinegun =/


I sincerely hope so. Using my rifles on GM so heavily makes me feel weird about using GT without them.I'll still miss knockdown, but bows after the update do catch up, DPS-wise.


Fire a card while strafing. Release, move slightly and fire another. You can do it the opposite way, too. What you're looking for is basically having two sets of cards in the air at once.

Speeds them up quite a bit. Firing the first at range and moving forward works sorta well, as does firing and moving backwards in the face of an advancing enemy.

If you practice you can manage it by kind of circle-strafing around the enemy, using the "move slightly" period to move to the left or right.

It's useful, but not entirely worth the effort.Yeah, I'm sure that most players using cards extensively learned to do that, I do use them a lot on AF (no real choice, heh).

[Magus_84]

I'll still miss knockdown, but bows after the update do catch up, DPS-wise.



From what I can tell reading the JP wiki's comments, I think Masei-sou loses it's speed penalty, then gets the same speed boost that all bows get applied to it.

So it goes from "so slow as to be unusable" with knockdown and level 2 (maybe 3?) capped SE Stun with shotgun range to normal (sped-up) bow speed with knockdown and SE5 stun (at 41).

Rifle will still beat it in DPS I think, and wins in range. But if you, say, like me...have all your rifles on another class, it'd be a good stopgap for when you really need ranged knockdown.

And SE3 (like on Nosdiga) seems to proc pretty often. I think SE5 Stun might actually be good enough to be worth using.

Remains to be seen, though. I may be misinterpreting.

[Dymalos]

In my opinion, Guntechers have a pretty big sortie and not a lot of space for all of the PA discs to warrant making Cards one of my arsenal choices. But seeing as I play AT and AF as well, I do have them leveled, they just stay on the shelf when I'm Gunteching.

You can talk finesse all you want, I've done my share of zero hit runs, they're fun and challenging sure, but not really time effficient and what's more none of mine have involved cards.

And when it comes down to it, you guys who're pro-cards seem to be seriously overrating the usefulness of dodging. HP is not exactly a scarce resource, and that's especially true as GT, what with the standard complement of mates along with nigh unlimited Resta and the regenerative potential of Giresta. It's much quicker to use the best DPS option, and take a few hits, than to worry about dodging attacks.

[Hiero_Glyph]

In my opinion, Guntechers have a pretty big sortie and not a lot of space for all of the PA discs to warrant making Cards one of my arsenal choices. But seeing as I play AT and AF as well, I do have them leveled, they just stay on the shelf when I'm Gunteching.

You can talk finesse all you want, I've done my share of zero hit runs, they're fun and challenging sure, but not really time effficient and what's more none of mine have involved cards.

And when it comes down to it, you guys who're pro-cards seem to be seriously overrating the usefulness of dodging. HP is not exactly a scarce resource, and that's especially true as GT, what with the standard complement of mates along with nigh unlimited Resta and the regenerative potential of Giresta. It's much quicker to use the best DPS option, and take a few hits, than to worry about dodging attacks.

Don't misunderstand me, Cards are situational but when that situation happens they are your best option. For me they work especially well against casters, olgohmon (sp?), or anything else that requires a bit of dodging due to spawning in large numbers. Once you kill a majority of the group you can easily switch to machineguns to finish the last few off, but when you add in the time taken to dodge using a machinegun, Cards have better DPS initially.

As for having excessive healing items and Resta, well Resta takes a short period of time to cast. You could have just used Cards to dodge, kept up your DPS and not wasted the time to cast Resta entirely. Likewise when you get hit there is a small animation and this further wastes time or knocks you into another spell. It does all work out in the end to favor Cards. Again, I do not carry Cards on every mission but when I do carry them they serve a very specific purpose that cannot be replicated by another weapon type.