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Sinue_v2
Oct 12, 2009, 07:20 PM
TL:DR (VotP = My Voice. Reps don't work for you, and never have.)

I've heard the claim often that politicians in Washington have failed repeatedly to listen to the "Voice of the People". I understand the frustration, and recognize that there are major problems in the way our Government (in America) is handled. Contrasting the attitudes of representatives both sitting and after retirement reveals a striking discord. Bob Dole, for instance, fought vigorously against Healthcare Reform while he was in office... yet now he is working across party lines to encourage Republicans to work with the Democrats on coming to a viable compromise.

Our representatives are the slaves of two masters... the voter, and the lobbyist. Unfortunately, the poor discretion shown by voters who insist on voting strictly according to party loyalties or for whom bullshit plays a major role in their decision is partly to blame. According to a BBC broadcast on NPR I heard the other night, even Brittan's labor party in the upcoming parliamentary election is threatened by not only public desire for any sort of change - but by the all important bullshit factor. One pundit recalled hearing the opinion of a "man on the street" who's opinion was swayed by how well the candidate managed their home families. All well and good, but has bugger-all to do with qualifications. The panel lamented the "Americanizing" of the process.

Yet those politicians depend on lobbyist funds to buy their campaign slogans and run attack ads. Ron Paul in the 2008 primaries made record breaking headway with the grassroots donations and publicity, but which paled in comparison to corporate and special interest funding of his opponents. How can anyone expect their representatives to NOT be bought and sold, if we as a public are emboldening the process.

Yet, that is just one aspect of the problem. Were we to chase the lobbyists out of Capital Hill like the rats they are, I have a feeling that - to the vast majority of Americans, not much would appear to have changed. There seems to be an illusion that we have bought into over the years. A feel-good slogan which is accurate only in regards to how far outside of our prejudices we're willing to look. That is, that there is no voice of the people. The right to peacefully assemble and protest grievances was never intended to tell our politicians what they should be doing. The right to protest is there so as to help spark discussion and discourse among the American people. To inform EACH OTHER on our particular side of an issue. The voice the politicians should be hearing, is only counted on election day.

America is not a Democratic nation, and never has been. It is, and always has been, a Constitutional Republic. As John Adams put it, it is "A nation of laws, not men". Many of the founders endorsed a Republic over a Democracy, because Republics allow for the only guarantee that the minority will still have a voice to be heard. The minorities from whom dissidence and revolution ultimately always grow from. Democracies are little more than mob rule, and at best are soft dictatorships born from anarchy. They are internally corrosive, lacking the means to properly ensure the education of the public which is so vital to any hope of their success.

The Voice of the People, when heard beyond your particular group, is most resembling that of a loud discordant roar of 300 million different screams and demands for something different. There is simply no way to accommodate them all satisfactorily. Politicians don't even try. They simply do the best job they can, be it for the money, for their state, for the nation, or for concerns of re-election. They do whatever they want, whatever they can, and they'll lie about the rest come election day. That's how it was set up from the beginning. How it is meant to be. It is a system of checks and balances between the people/states, the constitution, the enforcement (police/military), and the government body.

Indeed, when you truly consider it, the "Will of the People" reflects the direct opposite of the spirit of individuality and freedom America has long supported. A single unified "Will of the People" is only possible with extreme censorship to opposition or by conformity to a greater whole. It is the enslaver of independent thought and speech for the sake of a greater good. It is intended to be this way, because for the greater majority of 300 million citizens (today) to come together to protest a grievance so profound that their voices find concordance - that would truly be the call to Revolution.

Today we hear the "Voice of the People" being thrown about nonchalantly in support of this, or that, or both but opposing stances. To those claiming to be behind the voice, that may well certainly seem to be the way of things. We can't help but assume such is the case often, because our self-confirming bias tends to shelter us to views and groups with opposing views to our own. Excepting perhaps as ridicule and ammunition fodder, but not to be taken seriously.

For instance, the latest calls to heed the "Voice of the People" often raised at the 9/12 rallies or Town Hall meetings. The recent march on Washington was seen by many in those groups to be a "wake up call" to the Government. A "Final Warning", before the slumbering giant awakens once more. The turnout was fairly impressive, depending on which network covered it. But is the weight of the American populace truly behind such a movement?

I will not venture my 5th grade math skills to try to break down the following numbers in comparative manners. If someone else would like to, that's fine. This is just a rough approximation of how strong the "Voice of the People" truly is by comparing it against a different voice. A slightly darker voice, and a slightly gayer voice.

While some claims of 1.7 million protesters have circulated, estimates done based on D.C. Metro Services and photographs have put the number closer to about 500,000 to 750,000 (being generous). 1/2 to 3/4 of a million Americans is no small number, considering how many could not attend the event. But consider these numbers as well...

African Americans make up about 13.4% of the American demographic. In 1995, the Million Man March on Washington was claimed to have over 1.5 million attendees... although actual numbers are estimated to be closer to about 800,000.

The recent National Equality March in Washington drew several thousands of marchers protesting for Gay and Lesbian rights. Though more low-key this year, previous events have drawn up to 500,000 attendees or more. On average, homosexuals make up about 10% of the American demographic. Some dubiously conservative sites peg the number at closer to (hah) 1%.

Whether or not the other marches were indeed larger, smaller, or similarly sized to the 9/12 marches, such an endeavor is not the goal of my posting here. The mere fact that even the roughest and most rounded comparisons put the 9/12 protests as only being roughly representative to about 10-15% of the American population. 10-15% is, thus, representative of the "Voice of the People"?

Lets try this another way. Let's say, there were 1 million people at the protests. Each protester represented 10 people who could not attend. That's... what... 2.5% of the American public? Even if one protester represented 100 who could attend, 1/3rd of Americans cannot claim to possess the "Voice of the People" without silencing the other 2/3rd of the American public. And of course, this isn't then breaking that demographic down into subdivisions on how to deal with issues individually. Many of the protesters in Washington were there with separate or loosely affiliated groups. There were Anarchists, Nationalists, Libertarians, Independents, Socialists, Communists, Democrats, Republicans, Religious, Atheists, and all manner of differences in opinion. I won't suggest which demographic was most strongly represented, but even in the movement claiming to carry the "Voice of the People", I cannot see unity beyond the most vague commonalities. Some clashed, some subverted, some allied.

Why then, do so many promote this fantasy propaganda which cannot exist in the form of government and society we wish to live? Are their positions so weak that they must appeal to our nature of enjoying and feeling comfort in groups, that they then present the very antithesis of freedom of speech as something to be revered? Do they truly think such a stifling and tyrannical bellow which is the "voice of the people" is truly what our representatives are obliged to follow?

I suppose this wasn't much of a rant, but I didn't know where else to put it. Though, at least, I'm sure it will inspire other rants in response to it. Politics always has a lovely way of turning into a category 5 shit storm.

KaFKa
Oct 12, 2009, 08:16 PM
Amen.

HAYABUSA-FMW-
Oct 12, 2009, 09:09 PM
The voice of the people, from this "information superhighway" is a little disturbing.

Beyond those special interest groups voicing for their people, online you get your freaks, geeks, fans, boys, fanboys, and all the rest.

As far as incorporating the internet in anything (I'm thinking progressively, why not, rather than another "billion dollar worth social network"), I just heard of Republicans using internet enabled "Smartphones" to Twitter links to already posted articles, just a hub pass through for other people's information. And they outnumbered the Democrats by a big diff, while the tv news report was basically saying this was another way of spending in the wrong place - phones paid for and work time used to pass along links rather than maybe more pressing info.

Do congress people, local govt. officials even use that fancy "electronic-mail" and get people's thoughts and concerns quickly? Or is it still snail mail?

Maybe in a few more decades, everything voting wise is done secure online on 128 bit encrypt. , or of course better as tech allows, and you may just get that every voice of every person.

KodiaX987
Oct 12, 2009, 11:53 PM
Quoth Yahtzee:



Fans are clingy, complaining dipshits who will never ever be grateful for any concession you make. The moment you shut out their shrilled tremulas of voices, the happier you'll be for it.

Gibdozer
Oct 13, 2009, 12:02 AM
-Bertrand Russell from "The Impact of Science on Society" 1953

"I think the subject which will be most important politically is mass psychology... Its importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda. Of these the most influential is what is called 'education'. Religion plays a part though a diminishing one; the press, the cinema, and the radio play an increasing part... It may be hoped that in time anybody will be able to persuade anybody of anything if he can catch the patient young and is provided by the state with money and equipment."

"Gradually, by selective breeding, the congenital differences between rulers and ruled will increase until they become almost different species. A revolt of the plebs would become as unthinkable as an organized insurrection of sheep against the practice of eating mutton."

The "Voice of the People" seems to become less relevant with each passing year. Every election we are presented with groups of identical men(wealthy, educated, connected) to represent us. In the end it makes little difference who gets the job because our reality remains the same, rule by the elite is irrefutable in this country.

Our rights have been reduced to privileges revocable at our masters whim under the guise of freedom and manufactured fear(The Patriot Act). Our government, media, and corporate entities have become united into a single design which has aspirations far removed from the well being of the people.

-Woodrow Wilson 1913(on the Federal Reserve )

"I have unwittingly ruined my own country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated in the hands of a few men.

We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated governments in the world...no longer a government of free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and duress of small groups of dominant men."

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912#
for the whole story on the federal reserve system and its enslavement of the American people

-Abraham Lincoln

"We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow men who pervert the Constitution."

-Samuel Adams

"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds."

I guess change has never really been about great numbers so much as great resolve in those who number as patriots.

HAYABUSA-FMW-
Oct 13, 2009, 12:06 AM
Its turning into quotes of other people about other people & their voices up in here.

I blame the smiley typo out of tl ; dr

Gunslinger-08
Oct 13, 2009, 12:58 AM
Well, a voice is only heard when someone speaks.

The voice of the people is only made up of those who choose to speak out. The majority is content to let things go on the way they are, simply because everyone has their own problems to worry about. Therefore, they remain silent and apart from the "voice."

So while I'd claim that there is, in fact, a voice of the people, I would also claim that the term is being grossly misused and whored to a point of no value by politicians who think the phrase still carries any weight.

AngelofEnders
Oct 13, 2009, 12:23 PM
The thing that's REALLY scary I think is that people in our generation are becoming increasingly jaded with the way this country is being run but because of how difficult it is to simply live due to college costs, how difficult it is to get good health care, how difficult it is to get your first home that by the time you're finished, you really don't have the time to make your voice heard unless you dedicate most of your free time towards doing that. It's pretty clear that many people are not going to take up that torch until things start to get really bad.

Waki Miko Syamemaru!
Oct 13, 2009, 12:33 PM
I heard somewhere that the American populace is actually ready to start some sorta Revolution. Better start up my "Mozeltov Cocktail" business!

Ketchup345
Oct 14, 2009, 12:45 PM
Salon.com (up to you whether to believe it) mentions ABC as saying the 9/12 protest in DC had 70,000 tops. Politifact's fact-check page says most major media topped in the "tens of thousands". The numbers from the WMTA also support just "tens of thousands", as the rail ridership was only up 140,000 from the week before, halve that to get the round trip, and 70,000, as it is likely buses would have been minimal (also no concrete bus data available).

Nice rant.
One other thing I'd like to add is people trying to mean the polls of Congress satisfaction mean anything. Congress might have horrible numbers as a whole, but the only thing that matters is individual numbers, which in many cases are higher. Many Republicans have low opinions of congress since the Democrats are in charge, many Democrats are annoyed with congress because Republicans are blocking things they want (or some Democratic representatives are seen as spineless).

I've also seen comments saying Fox is great because it has the best viewership. This may be true, but what happens when you combine all the competitors in the news segment (since Fox is usually seen as more conservative and the others more centrist or liberal; I don't have numbers to back it (very hard to find anything recent covering all major stations), but I'm guessing they'd be competitive or above Fox's)?


I heard somewhere that the American populace is actually ready to start some sorta Revolution. Better start up my "Mozeltov Cocktail" business!The populace? Not really.
Some crazy people? There's almost always some people (the far wing of the party out of power most notably, other groups might want it too, but they're usually not too powerful or cared about) who want it, it just happens that the far wing right now is loud and has some apparent encouragement on tv.


Due to unsure about the rest of the sites' content for appropriateness, I'll pm links on request.

CrimsomWolf
Oct 14, 2009, 01:30 PM
The democracy is basically like a buffet with a really big pie.

And everyone can have a free piece. Only, that the pie is not infinite, so some will inevitably not get their piece.

The problem of today is that *everyone* wants their own piece, but none are willing to accept the fact that they might not get it.

One might go from there, and suggest that if everyone will want their piece, some will forcefully take it from others, leading to fights and ultimately collapse of order and society. The problem with democracy (that is, in it's pure, unlimited form) is that if everyone will be allowed to have their way, nobody will get it, because the differences in human nature will lead to constant conflict in interests. At best, it would cause the country to stagnate (as nothing would ever get done), at worst we have anarchy and all-out civil war.

Machiavelli proposed that this will go on in circles: The authoritarian governments which originally existed to ensure that job gets done and nation survives (regardless if people like it or not) will, after a period of quiet divulge their power among favorites and lead to aristocracies (where few rule many). As more people access power, or when aristocracy is unable to control it's flow/is forced to give it up, democracy arises as pretty much everyone will get a saying in how to run things (the rule of many), but eventually so many people will want that pie that the government will collapse in chaos. At that point you get the individual(s) who steps in and forcefully assumes control and removes others from power in order to maintain order and ensure that nation will not collapse - basically you return to authoritarian rule (the one over many). And whole thing starts again.

Just my two cents.

HAYABUSA-FMW-
Oct 14, 2009, 08:46 PM
Originally Posted by Syamemaru! View Post
I heard somewhere that the American populace is actually ready to start some sorta Revolution. Better start up my "Mozeltov Cocktail" business!



The populace? Not really.
Some crazy people? There's almost always some people (the far wing of the party out of power most notably, other groups might want it too, but they're usually not too powerful or cared about) who want it, it just happens that the far wing right now is loud and has some apparent encouragement on tv.

Can you explain what a Mozeltov Cocktail is? How did someone miss that.

I've heard of Molotov as have the rest of everybody I'm sure.

AC9breaker
Oct 15, 2009, 08:51 AM
Can you explain what a Mozeltov Cocktail is? How did someone miss that.

I've heard of Molotov as have the rest of everybody I'm sure.

Sure, I'll do it for them. It's an ancient Jewish brew that dates back to Moses and his big boat thats been passed down generations to generations. It's usually handed out to individuals to celebrate great success or fortune. Birthdays, Parties, Weddings, and in this case anarchistic revolutionary takeover by the proletarian of the bourgeois controlled institutions of the country.

Gibdozer
Oct 16, 2009, 04:41 AM
I heard somewhere that the American populace is actually ready to start some sorta Revolution. Better start up my "Mozeltov Cocktail" business!

Well I don't think its just crazies who would like to see a little fear of the people put into American government. The major problem is that our founding fathers who gave us the right to bear arms in defense of liberty never saw a tank!

Taking a militant stance against this government would be suicide. Since the elections are a sham and the voice of the people is simply political propaganda, we are left with passive resistance. Mozeltov

Outrider
Oct 16, 2009, 09:42 AM
Well I don't think its just crazies who would like to see a little fear of the people put into American government. The major problem is that our founding fathers who gave us the right to bear arms in defense of liberty never saw a tank!

I would agree that we run into some issues with the fact that the founding fathers couldn't have known how the world would be in this day and age, but not at all for the reasons you're suggesting.

I would actually argue that there are some elements that were implemented that are as outdated these days as gender inequality is.