In the next instalment of PSO...they need to give the enemie

[Annoy]

You should be able to taunt the enemies to get em off your teammates. And by taunting them, some will charge after you, roar, or maybe do the Hildebear chest pound.

Or maybe the enemies need to have attack formations, rather than heading straight for you so you can pick em off with a gun, they would weave in a figure-eight sort of pattern.

Also...as a new thought they need to have terrain advantages and disadvantages. Say you shoot a laser into a river, it should steam up and blind any enemies standing in the river. Or Shoot anything electric in it (or cast Zonde) and it should shock and/or damage them all.

Or be able to burn some brush that the enemies are standing in. And it flames up, damages em. Stuff lke that.

Or a form of sniper targeting that the Rangers can do. Kind of like the James Bond: Agent Under Fire, or Night Fire like targeting system for that.

I dunno...just a few thoughts while trying to raise my stupid mag. So uhh...feel free to post any of your ideas http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[thewiredknight]

While the more interactive atmosphere and sniping would be nice I think the enemy AI is nearly impossible. Consider that the game allready has to generate enemies randomly and VERY few games have enemy AI that can think that well. Not even first person shooters are capable of Enemy AI like that. Sure they duck behind crates but such is programmed that they just do so at random. The game allready serves as something requiring a HUGE processor, and to try to let the enemies think for themselves would require it to run faster, lag's bad enough as is.

[gallaugher]

I'd like to be able to make little 'folders' in my bank to better organize my items. It would also make muling much easier because you could set all your items aside that you want to give to a particular char.

[Annoy]

While the more interactive atmosphere and sniping would be nice I think the enemy AI is nearly impossible. Consider that the game allready has to generate enemies randomly and VERY few games have enemy AI that can think that well. Not even first person shooters are capable of Enemy AI like that. Sure they duck behind crates but such is programmed that they just do so at random. The game allready serves as something requiring a HUGE processor, and to try to let the enemies think for themselves would require it to run faster, lag's bad enough as is.

O_o Didn't think about that...anyway...I can think of a couple of games thay have fairly good enemy AI systems... (Wing Commander for one) and uhh....err...umm...okay so I can only think of one...anyway http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif It's just kinda annoying when the enemies are wandering towards you... and they do nothing different untill they reach you (except maybe run into each other and double back only to spin back around and come after you again) and attack. All the while, you're nailing em with a Slicer, Techs, or a Shot... o_o

Also...as an afterthought...they need new enemy deaths o.o tired of em just falling over, then sinking into the ground (where do they go anyway?).

Edit: Just realized I spelled Installment wrong o_o heh


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Annoy on 2003-02-25 15:45 ]</font>

[Blenjar]

Yea we know.....they all stupid and shit...we need better joints yo.

[IronKnight]

PSO needs a completely new combat system. It's current combat system is so limited because it was made with an exclusively narrowband structure in mind. Xbox Live is broadband only, Gamecube has the option for broadband... I really hope the next PSO gets a brand new combat system. Maybe something like Devil May Cry or Crimson Sea.

[thewiredknight]

Unfortunately that's the curse of the hack and slash game. I've come to the conclusion that any enemy in a game can be beaten by the pattern method. No matter how much programming goes into a game, everything follows patters, and with enemies they are often predictable patters. Be it the menaingless guard across from you who ducks behind barrles but always manages to place his head in the same spot when he stands up so you can peg him, or the boss who repeats the same three or four attacks in the same order, generally if you solve the pattern you've beaten the enemy. The only exception to this rule is racing games which randomly choose which characters or racers will be racing in the first few spots alongside you so you can never really predict who else will be with you up in front.

[Bloodberry]

That would be cool Iron, but I'm just happy that they've taken the step beyond 'Push A and sit still' O_o

[ALPHAM0F0]

the next pso need the story to get you involved much much more. more like a MMorpg. where its just one hugeass world, and you travel around looking for friends, rico, or the monster that destroyed ragol. and by doing this it has to be on anoher world. And would it kill them to add a snow level?

[PalRappies_go_splat]

I dunno about u guys but i need a more advanced button system... i onli get 6 hotkeys on GC and a force needs way more than that... 1 for normal atk 1 for a mate 1 for a fluid then that only leaves 2 for spells personally i find it annoying to go into the menu to cast shifta and deband every three minutes instead of making the Z button another menu button it should be a toggle button like R BTW i dunno wat this post has to do with enemy AI =P

[Bloodberry]

1 atk
1 mate
1 fluid

3 buttons left..

that's 3 spells http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif I always thought z button would rock to make a third menu, I don't even know what it does now.

[IronKnight]

Xbox has voice recognition technology... They should let u cast spells by saying their name. Although everyone in my house would think I was insane! O.o

[Celes152]

Z brings up the menu.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Celes152 on 2003-02-25 18:33 ]</font>

[Mumfo]

While the more interactive atmosphere and sniping would be nice I think the enemy AI is nearly impossible. Consider that the game allready has to generate enemies randomly and VERY few games have enemy AI that can think that well. Not even first person shooters are capable of Enemy AI like that. Sure they duck behind crates but such is programmed that they just do so at random. The game allready serves as something requiring a HUGE processor, and to try to let the enemies think for themselves would require it to run faster, lag's bad enough as is.

Uh halo has hecka good AI and it makes PSOs look like crap.

[TeamPhalanx]

Halo... isn't even in the same genre. The only games that have such great AI... well, it's not AI at all. It's online games like counter-strike and Unreal, where you play versus other individuals.

I've thought about this some time ago, and in order for better AI to be introduced, you'd have to alter the game engine itself. If the enemies get smarter, you'd need more options (side-step, jump, etc.)

In essence, you would be turning PSO into a non button-masher, and something closer to combat systems present in action-adventure games. While this may be a good idea, I think it may be too late. I mean, it'd be a risky/bold move, as ST would run the chance of losing its current audience.

All that said, complex AI require more programming and, well... You know.

[goaliedude10]

Great ideas, but I don't see them happening for another 15 years...

[Maelkith]

what do the enemies need AI for? thats why they have so many hitpoints. if i had to fight a bartle that could think, it would be like a boss fight. instead of a room with 18 enemies that generate at trigger points, the rooms would have 2 enemies that would require teamwork to take down. that sort of game would feel like the cave troll scene from LotR. the combat system needed to deal with that would also have to be more advanced. its the difference between checkers and chess.

that would be the greatest game ever played, so i think its a bit much to hope for. someday we will have games like that but i doubt sonic team will be the ones to bring it to us.

[IronKnight]

So true. Let's just hope we don't get too involved with games in the future. Wouldn't want to end up like some Matrix dudes with big headphone jacks in the back of our skulls!! XD

Side Note: You live in Illinois? I used to live up there... I miss the change of seasons. I lived over in Naperville, what part of IL you in?

[Blood_Dragoon]

First off to who ever said they assign a button for mates on a force. Dump the mate and hotkey resta. As for the AI. Yes for the most part the enemies are stupid. However they don't so much need an AI boost to make more of a challenge. I think the enemies all need multiple attack options available to them much like the Chaos Bringer, and Delbiter or blocking abilities like the Del Saber. If the monsters were more flexable it would make it alot more challenging to play the game. And having more monsters that use techs like the Chaos Sorceror wouldn't hurt either. And as for whoever mentioned people jacking into a game like on "The Matrix". It will probably never get that extreme however it is possible that people will be playing games via neuro visors as seen on the .hack series when people log onto "The World".

[EsperFlame]

I think the enemies need to be given a bit more agility. I'm not saying they should Move around so fast you couldn't target them, but look at Metroid Prime. Enemies in that game don't just stand still for you to shoot them. They dodge, take cover, and work together like a strategic team. The same could be said in Half-Life. The AI wasn't super or anything, but they programmed it to respond to players actions and to be somewhat defensive.

With PSO, the enemies virtually haveno true defensive maneuvers. They just come right at you and try to whack you. Thats it. No More. The enemies in PSO just need a couple defensive maneuversto spice things up. Imagine if a Booma say dug back underground where you can't shoot itand then repopped up behind to whacking you. That would be a good defensive tactic. Stuff like that would make PSO much harder, but also more challenging. For us Vet PSO'ers, we'd love even minute of that!

[Vhal]

I'd rather have ST work on a better battle system (something similar to Metroid/Zelda). That's something they could easily pull off, and it would make gameplay much more interesting. Monsters would just need to be faster/have at least two attacks in their arsenal to compensate. *drools at the idea of having his Racast perform sidesteps and dodge attacks*

[rena-ko]

actually... i like it as it is...

some of the enemies are stupid (boomas) and some are more tricky (delsabers) and some have pure power - and actually things like surrounding the player or being defensive and stuff like that is allready in the game - just for some of the enemies http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif

ST made a good job in differenting and balancing the enemies, imho.

[Asmoedean]

I want a unicorn that craps rainbows and turns enemies into pancakes with a thought, but we all can't get our wishes.

Sega will probably just keep milking the same core gameplay of PSO for a long while. And personally, I don't really want something akin to a first person shooter anyways. As long as they make shiny new weapons I'll be happy.

[Sinix]

I dont understand what making the enemies do weird patterns would accomplish... its not like it would make them harder to shoot or anything. Its a lockon, fire, game...

Anyway, fighting games usually have good AIs, no real visible patterns most of the time. But, I honestly dont think there is any way to really change the PSO battle aspects around..

[IceBurner]

The enemy AI (well, lack thereof) is a large part of why PSO is the way it is ... the difficulty lies entirely in how heavily the game is stacked against players.

Sega just tends to wimp out on the whole creative and challenging enemies deal and relies on cheapass patterned enemies and deliberately futzed player controls, though I don't believe anyone is more famous for that than Capcom. Capcom does it all the damn time. Who knows why their teams are unwilling or unable to program some decent enemies...all I know is that their games often feature feces controls or "perfect" CPU-controlled opposition and that's the only reason they're challenging. There's a few notable exceptions, I shouldn't have to name them.

Getting back to PSO, there's a reason it's a pain in the ass to target enemies with most weapons, but spreads and one of the Yasminkov's are magically able to aim for you. It's the same reason enemies only "stun" and players get knocked down, why monsters get "miss"ed and players stop to block, why players cool down after a combo and enemies string attacks faster than God/Battle, why there are zones by doors where you can't hit them but they can hit you ... they have no AI and simple patterns, if the game wasn't fighting you, you would notice the monsters sure as hell weren't.

Don't get me wrong, I like my PSO. I am however a harsh critic of games and for an action RPG, PSO's depth of combat is only a step above what was available on the NES. So why would I like this game? PSO has other aspects that are pretty good, namely the social aspect and overall style. Playing in a team feels good. Chatting with friends feels great. The heavily stylized "photon" nature of everything really appeals to me. If I want a deep fight, I look elsewhere. If I want to play a game because I know the odds are against me, I'll fire up Einhaender and revel in my death throes. If I want to play an RPG with some friends, I reach for PSO.

[HC82]

I think a taunt feature would be pretty usefull. it would be an effective way for hunters to control the flow of the enemies toward them and away from more vunerable classes. It shouldn't work 100%. That way all the enemies don't go toward one character, maybe like a 15% chance of the enemy heading toward you(an enemy can only be taunted once). Just something to use when a new wave spawns to make it easier for the rest of the team.

Anyway as for the AI, yea it's very simple. PSO is desinged to be simple.I think the enemies should be revamped a little bit, but not too much.

For example if the "fodder enemies" (booma, sharks, dimenian etc) could walk backwards or sides way at will. You swing your sword, and the fodder enemy steps back to avoid it, or you swing your saber and the enemy steps sideways to avoid it then attacks you directly after. Thats would be pretty cool...although since you can't cancel your attack during mid swing you'd be severly owned if alone(although it would be really cool online if some of them did that).

A Fo would laugh and nuke away. A RA would have a minorly tough time and a hunter would be pretty screwed(bots being the minor exception).

It would be a nice upgrade to the enemy AI, but you the hunter would need an upgrade as well.

Given the control options of your player if the enemy AI was really intense you'd be totally screwed. When it comes to melee your targeting system defines what you can and can't hit, even if the weapon swing touches the enemy, if the target system isn't locked on the attack does not register.

Your characters aren't that evasive in there movements or defensive tactics either. They can't run any faster and practically come to a full stop when you touch the side of a wall at anything greater then a 15' angle. You can't dictate the direction of your melee attack while in mid combo, nor can you alter locked on tech targets(*hint to ST: Z button to target 2nd nearest target*)

Let's imagine these enemies have amazing AI, you'd be screwed because of your lacking fighting/movement options. I think this was expressed early in the topic as well in another post.

Example:
Just on a basis of AI now, meaning the enemy chooses to attack you with what it's given in a "smart" manor.

Lets say you had to face 2 tech using enemies which nuke for low damage so you aren't knocked down when hit. The two tech users choose to time there tech casting so they nuke one after another. So when one enemy lets off a tech, the other enemy lets loose a tech inbetween the delay time of the other caster. I know I tend to do this when Iam coupled with another FO. The end result are two FOs casting techs so that it would be like one FO is casting techs at double their casting speed. The enemy can barely move since the techs are flying out one after another. If the enemy did this to you, you wouldn't be able to move. You just take hit after hit and die shortly there. Considering whenever your hit and try to move you don't run, but you walk for a bit then run. If the enemy aplied some actual intelligence on you the player...you'd be screwed.

Iam not advocating that the current enemy AI is good and shouldn't be changed, but you the player need more gameplay options as well if the enemies were REALLY suped up AI wise.

So the entire game would need to be revamped as well(which is a good thing).

Enhanced enemy AI = a good thing, but it would have to be done in a way that the player can still handle the situation with the control scheme given to them.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: HC82 on 2003-02-26 23:04 ]</font>

[polishedweasel]

Yeah I don't really like how the enemies are incredibly stupid either, but they are also incredible strong too. First of all they all have massive amounts of HP in Ultimate. Then they all have massive ATP too(with the exception of the forest monsters). Last, they all swarm the hell out of you sometimes. BTW, have you ever been hit by the Dark Bringers little(HUGE) cannon attack? Don't!!! 980 damage isn't a very healthy chunk of life to lose.

Have you ever been stuck in a group of Arlans with your deband on and the Zalure on them? It's not a very pretty situation. They all hit at the same time. You don't fall....well yeah you do but you wake up in the hospital. I hate that sometimes.

As far as the problems with the controls are concerned:
Tip #1:Use the quick menu to use Shifta, Deband, Grants, Fluids and Mates. (hold R then it Y, C-stick to scroll, and hit R again to change pages)
Tip #2: Set up your techs for the level that you're in. It's very important the you Forces know your enemy weaknesses.
Tip #3: This one is for the Fo's out there...Carry technique boosting wepons. Oh, I love my Hildebear Cane and my Mace Of Adaman. Very Useful against ULT Falz!!!!!

EDIT::::oops I forgot to mention that if you hit X on your Quick menu spells list you can Change the order of your spells...Also very, very useful!



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: polishedweasel on 2003-02-27 11:35 ]</font>

[RagMasterRappy]

The game wouldn't need too many adjustments if they forced you to manually target everything through a 3rd or 1st person perspective. A mouse and keyboard would go great with such a setup and would introduce a whole new feel to the game.

[Ryo_Hayasa]

well i think all these ideas are great but would take too much time.
though a jump or "custom combo" system would be nice you can create you own style of fighting as you and the character grow with the enemies on the other hand.
the AI is fine for now maybe a lil bit more that
"come in packs surround hack you to death"
if anything i think the enemies should maybe taut you when you die.
imagin
"Dark Falz killing you with a Swipe then Laughing at you turning away Bring you back to life as she mutters in Rico's voice "i thought you could do better Hunter"
Bah i'm just a dreamer but i think that would be nice

[Annoy]

Just thinking...after reading Net Force...imagine this game in Veeyar (VR)...all this would actually be possible... o.O Anyway...

As to the enemie AI thingy...a um...move/technique/special ability should be Duck and Roll for Human Hunters/Rangers...jet pack boost for the Bots...and maybe a teleport spell for the Forces... one that takes no time to cast (as with the Hunters...you roll when you're knocked down (or if you don't fall down maybe a play dead option where you flop on the ground then roll away) Then the jetpack would just be a jump and you can kind of direct it...but it only becomes available (all of these for that matter) when you're surrounded by 2 or more enemies (other wise for the Force, you couls just teleport, nuke em, then when you get charged again, just teleport...same with the other abilities), and the force would just be a sort of....mind trick? that takes no time to cast..)

Anyway...just a couple of thoughts...not much...but yeah...it would involve completley re-vamping the combat system..though about some of the memory problems....in every game out there for the Cube, the disks haven't fully been used...there's still gotta be quite a bit of space unused by the game in these disks.

Also..the idea about enemy taunts would be nice http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif If frustruating (I know I spelled that wrong...and if I didn't...well...I'm lucky)... but rather than the enemies taunting you with the same old phrase... they should randomly be picked from a list of taunts...

Uhh...anyway...keep those ideas coming...and I'll just keep raising this stupid mag...good thing I've got Mechwarrior 4 to keep me occupied while I'm doing this... other wise it'd never get done http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Toyzferall]

All I want to be able to do is jump. And have a first-person mode. *Shrug*

[Lman90245]

PSO needs a new freaking makeover... add a FPS option and WANTED posters to claim rewards for 'bad guys' like kireek etc...

[Malkavian]

Err... well afteral PSO is an action-RPG not an action-adventure game. And well zelda, metroid or Devil may cry combat system may be cooler but not deeper, more complex or with more customisation. I mean to learn how to fight good with all the weps and against all enemies in PSO you need tons of hours. In Devil may cry, zelda or metroid with a few hours you master it.
Is true the game need a whole revamp since in the core is the same as 2 years ago but with much more stuff and things to do. But the game is still very good for now. Look other action-rpg games they have worse and more simple combat systems.
And is very different a game made to be played one time and a game made for be replayed tons of times.They can't put a really hard challenge because once played 2-3 times we would be tired of clearing it. It must be fun, have more variety, still more customisation, more different weapon types, etc....

[Skuld_0]

On 2003-02-25 17:56, Mumfo wrote:


Uh halo has hecka good AI and it makes PSOs look like crap.



gggggggggaaahhhhhhh....... why..why do you relate fps to an online rpg... i think the AI in pso is pretty good.

[WrJuicyFruit]

Complaints, complaints! You people need to remember that this is the first internet game, so sega probably was kinda in a hurry, thats why episode two isnt all the great. (except for central control area)

But......thats just my opinion

[RagMasterRappy]

On 2003-02-28 07:19, Skuld_0 wrote:


On 2003-02-25 17:56, Mumfo wrote:


Uh halo has hecka good AI and it makes PSOs look like crap.



gggggggggaaahhhhhhh....... why..why do you relate fps to an online rpg... i think the AI in pso is pretty good.

It's ok, but for the majority of the monsters that you first see in Episode 1 the algorithm is:



while alive
Face player which is the strongest
Walk towards player
If not getting anywhere for x seconds:
- Turn half way around to the left
or
- Turn half way around to the right

if player is in close proximity
attack player


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: RagMasterRappy on 2003-02-28 07:45 ]</font>