A Glass Cannon is fine too.

[SquashDemon]

Now, I'm not saying that FO's don't outdamage the other classes severely, or that they can't heal for their full hp, These are true, this is why people are saying they're overpowered, but honestly, I don't see them that way, mind you this is my opinion, so before we start callin' ol' Squash "the idiot" here and make him wear the Dunce cap, I'd like if you could hear me out on this.

I don't really believe forces are that Overpowered, I think it's more the player that makes it that way, with dismal HP and pitiable defensive stats, you can only ever throw spells from afar, it's kind of a force's only strength after all. Thing is, if you're an idiot, and -that's all you do- You'll still wind up a pile of loosely-sorted organs at the hands of any boss or group of enemies you failed to anticipate and/or notice.

Unlike with other classes, Forces have to be especially sure to avoid enemies, Yes, because their HP is so incredibly low, they CAN full heal, but people seem to glaze over the fact that they can also be flinchlocked, and oneshot, with relative ease at that.

A good force (one considered Overpowered) has to balance avoiding/anticipating enemy attacks, keeping an eye on the minimap and the top screen to make sure nothing's sneaking up on them, Keeping your partners alive (if you're online), making sure not to waste your techs by casting from too far away, (why has no one mentioned tech range is a lot shorter this time around?) When to charge a tech, and when NOT to.

It's a lot more to do than say a Ranger

Stand far away.
Shoot.
???????
PROFIT!

or a Hunter

Ey! Go beat the shit outta those things! and don't let them beat you up! here's a dodgeroll!
OKAY!
*runs up to usanny*
HEY YOU!
*Slashes the hell out of it*
RISING BACKSIDE WHIRL!
*sees Hildegigas winding up for the charge*
ARE YOU OKAY?!
*dodgeroll*

That randomness aside, I really think that the Force actually suits it's role quite nicely, after all, shouldn't it be the -player- who determines if a class is overpowered? I mean, this isn't RO where you can follow a build to a T, spam one move and be a champion of all everything forever.
At least in this game to survive you have to be skilled enough to know your range, limits, and what risks you can afford.

Eh, that's just my opinion though. Feel free to begin dousing me with flames....Now.

Just be forewarned, I HAVE already said rar at you.

...rar.

[Justyn_Darkcrest]

Well said ^.-b

[Ceresa]

Enter room, charge jellen, Aljellen the spawns, enjoy 80-90% evasion rate if you're using Ancient Robe or better. Charge again when the last one dies and hit the next wave. Stand up close and spam whatever.

Pretty easy...

[Akaimizu]

It's true, to a degree. Except the main creatures, in this game, that actually are dangerous have most of the attacks meant to hit people no matter where they're standing. Standing far away, for a ranger, is generally a strategy when facing normal folks. Which usually aren't dangerous to anybody. Against most bosses, or the highly dangerous creatures, the main time you worry about attacks that kill you, is their stuff which are designed to hit at a distance from them. Or something designed for them to quickly (above player movement speed) get them to attack the next target.

And you can't stand so far away, in this game. You generally have to stand where you're in direct attack angle from stuff unless you like to see anything you shoot at do the *block* *block* thing, for no damage.

Though I think the general theory, of this topic, is pretty good. Just that it could be executed better. There are little aspects of this engine, which could be changed to support this theory better. But as it stands, those little niggles are extra things that help the Force tip the balance more.

[King_Yoshi42]

I'd say RAcasts are overpowered, but that's just me. If they had Resta or some other tech besides the attacking ones, then they would just win at EVERYTHING!

New quote in sig.

[SquashDemon]

Enter room, charge jellen, Aljellen the spawns, enjoy 80-90% evasion rate if you're using Ancient Robe or better. Charge again when the last one dies and hit the next wave. Stand up close and spam whatever.

Pretty easy...

Yet it requires both intelligent thought into battle strategy, and an appreciation of an offensive maneuver that accounts for your strengths and weaknesses. an idiot force would do this

Stand in one corner
spam grants and use difluids.
wonder when the hell that zerro got behind you.
turn around to face that.
get slaughtered by that Phobos you weren't paying attention to because you don't know the definition of the words "mini map"
spam rez plz incessantly.
repeat ad infinitum.

[SammaeltheDark]

It's a lot more to do than say a Ranger

Stand far away.
Shoot.
???????
PROFIT!

where ???????? is "have your attack be negated by GUARD because you accidentally shot over a wall, boundary, or something while a FO is safely throwing a Slicer over the same boundary and hitting"



or a Hunter

Ey! Go beat the shit outta those things! and don't let them beat you up! here's a dodgeroll!
OKAY!
*runs up to usanny*
HEY YOU!
*Slashes the hell out of it*
RISING BACKSIDE WHIRL!
*sees Hildegigas winding up for the charge*
ARE YOU OKAY?!
*dodgeroll*

C'MON C'MON, GET SHERIOUS!
WOOO!

[SquashDemon]

where ???????? is "have your attack be negated by GUARD because you accidentally shot over a wall, boundary, or something while a FO is safely throwing a Slicer over the same boundary and hitting"rar, Fair enough, but shooting within boundaries is still not a spectacular feat, says I.



C'MON C'MON, GET SHERIOUS!
WOOO!THISH BATTOL IZ ABOUT TO ESPLODE!

[Weeaboolits]

Slower ranger weapons have a tendency to get sidestepped if used from too far away as well, especially in Arca Plant where nothing knows how to sit fucking still.

[Niered]

The reason that Forces are overpowered is the same reason that magic user's in so many other games are overpowered. Unlimited tech blasting.

Y'see, you have that PP bar for a reason, its supposed to limit you in your usage of techniques. You shouldn't necessarily be blasting enemies with gizonde or megid every second, you should be, to a certain extent, using those attacks only for tough mobs, or for large groups of mobs. Otherwise you oughtta be making the best use of your weapons.

But, Sega (and virtually every other Action RPG developer) has made it so you can simply go about blasting enemies to smithereens 24/7. You DO have a PP bar, but its essentially a joke. And that's not just for Forces, but all classes in this game. You can spam spam spam until you run out of fluids, and then simply hop in a telepipe back to town and restock, repeating the process until you finish the level. Their is a similar issue with mates, because the general strategy of enemies in PSZ is to simply hit you with some ungodly powerful attack which wipes out 4/5ths of your health bar, forcing you to use a mate, or killing you on the spot if youve already taken a bit of damage. But its all a joke because their is no death penalty and one can easily just pipe back to town to restock.

PSZ at least attempts to combat this error with limited stacks of restorative items, unlike games like Sacred or Dungeon Siege in which the best strategy for beating bosses is oftentimes simply emptying your inventory and filling it with nothing but HP and MP potions and spamming their hotkey's until the boss falls. But it's still not a good system. This idea is further exacerbated by the fact that like so many eastern made games, currency is little more than a joke, as you will always have more than enough in PSZ, meaning you dont need to ration it out to buy gear AND restoratives.

The only game that is coming out that's actually combating this problem is the Action RPG's great-granddaddy, Diablo 3. I've never been a huge fan of diablo, but when I heard that they had gotten rid of potions (both HP and MP) in game, I was ecstatic. Best idea ever, they're replacing them with orb's that drop from enemies, like God of War. This means you can't play a mage that does nothing but blast enemies all the time unless your actually killing enough mobs with it.

Basically, if you want the TL: DR version:

-Restoratives are, effectively, infinite in this and many other action RPG's, because you can warp back to town at any time.
-This means that the real reason Forces are overpowered is because they can endlessly spam there attacks, making the "limiting" effect the PP bar should have a joke.
-The same can be said of healing items, though to a slightly lesser extent.
-Diablo 3 is pretty much the only game actually doing anything about this stupid system.

[Akaimizu]

Diablo III is the great grandaddy. I'm sure it'll probably rock. Then again, I'm also a fan of the Diablo games and I know Blizzard are generally the hardest working team, on the planet, when it comes to game balancing. Before and post release. Of course, that's part of one of the issues why they almost never made console games. They tend to do balance patches for things you need thousands of players and more time to detect as easily. Then, perhaps after a long period of updates, they might consider releasing a console version.

So, in a way, Diablo III has the advantage of being on the computer. And as expected, they'll post-release patch it to perfection, like they did with Diablo II. D2 initially shipped with its own set of balance issues, without even talking about potions, but they did a lot to fix them in turn. So yeah, I would expect any console or PC/console simultaneous release, to have some things you can exploit for a class. And yeah, as much as I loved playing Sacred 2 (played it to death), Mages did take the cake in that one.

I guess when you go back, D&D had powerful mages, but they had the whole memorization system. Some systems had mana to replenish (only at rest) so that there were limitations on powerful spells. It was the early attempt to balance mages as a powerful strike machine, but not a spam one. In general, I think they should adopt the (longer it takes to do, or the higher the cost), the more powerful it is, idea. Especially if they want people to have easy access to plenty of constant use.

This game doesn't follow that, too well. We have Bazookas and Lasers and their PAs which are slow timed like techs and RA techs, or worse. And they hardly do damage to compete with lighter weapons in the game, nor are they as safe to use. But they're supposed to be the defacto Ranger-only weapons, as other classes gain access to most of the others.

But like I said. People aren't going crazy about it. Fortunately, everybody can deal at the end level. I love playing my Ramar, regardless of how the balance falls. (I also played/play a Human Guntecher on PSU, regardless of how the class balance made it so that most people don't play one) However, people will notice what would need to be fixed, for the next time, since there would be work to be done.

[Trina]

Yes, because Diablo 2 was really balanced to the point that some builds were vastly more overpowered than others and paladins became awesome by focusing on a single skill that created stupid looking flying hammers around them. /sarcasm

Blizzard? balancing? *looks at WoW* nope, don't see any balance here.

[Niered]

Yes, because Diablo 2 was really balanced to the point that some builds were vastly more overpowered than others and paladins became awesome by focusing on a single skill that created stupid looking flying hammers around them. /sarcasm

Blizzard? balancing? *looks at WoW* nope, don't see any balance here.

Hrgh. I wasn't talking about balancing issues, I was talking specifically about the fact that HP/MP potions in Action RPG's are an outdated, and broken system, and that Diablo 3 actually has a system in place that circumvents them.

[Akaimizu]

Diablo 2 had a ton of problems, before that. Anybody remember the Necros? Though I think many have tried systems to hopefully fix the potion use. Stuff like that delayed second of timing between using the potion and it actually filling the meter. But in a way, it wasn't always enough. Though I have to give it to some games. Sacred 2 did have it's share of enemies so tough that if they didn't OHKO you, they'd hit you for that multiple time it took to kill you before you could get your potion health back. But of course, it had to be certain enemies that could hit that fast.

I still have to hand it to Blizzard's support. People will always tend to find exploits, if the system is complex enough, but you can see constant progress in fixing stuff.

But I can see the point. Either have a specific use for replenishment items or not have them at all. It will be an interesting system to play in, I'll say.

[Weeaboolits]

I've seen some games handle it a bit better, like Mabinogi (lolfreekoreanmmo), where using too many potions results in potion poisoning and drops your stats temporarily, healing magic isn't something you can usually spam in battle either (I think it's possible to play the role of dedicated healer effectively, but getting your healing magic to the point is a bit of a task to say the least), it's more for healing up between battles (to say nothing of wounding which temporarily reduces your maximum HP, forcing you to stop and bandage up before moving on.), although magic in that game is indispensable regardless of your build, even if you can't hit hard with it, you'll still wanna use it to stun enemies or knock them away to buy time to load up your next skill, since the general strategy in battle for that game is "don't get hit", as most enemies will ruin your shit in seconds if you're not careful.

I think I had something else I was gonna say too, but I prattled on about that bit too long and forgot, oh well.

[SquashDemon]

Wouldn't it be fair then, to say that any kind of PP using attacker i.e. every character to use Photon Arts, is overpowered?

Yes, restoratives are easy to get to and there is no death penalty, but the ability to warp to town is (last I checked) still pretty accessable to every class in the game.

I realize you're saying the Game itself doesn't provide a sufficient challenge for you, but that isn't exactly the point I was trying to make, yes, PSZ is not exactly what you'd call a challenging game, unless your goal is to die as little as possible, and only warp back to town as necessary/at all. I'm only saying forces, in this game, fit their role rather sufficiently, and I do not see them as overpowered.

Personally, I don't like

[Niered]

Wouldn't it be fair then, to say that any kind of PP using attacker i.e. every character to use Photon Arts, is overpowered?


I actually did mention that, though Photon Art's aren't quite as overpowered as tech's, mainly because a Photon art still deals with the melee or ranged resistance of an enemy, and a Force can easily switch techniques up.

I would not say that Forces are so overpowered in this game that it makes other classes useless by comparison, but there is no denying that they deal more damage than anyone else in-game. Infinite PP is an issue that simple adds to this.

[Trina]

or just like, give them the heavy attack delay

[pso_crash]

The reason that Forces are overpowered is the same reason that magic user's in so many other games are overpowered. Unlimited tech blasting.

Y'see, you have that PP bar for a reason, its supposed to limit you in your usage of techniques. You shouldn't necessarily be blasting enemies with gizonde or megid every second, you should be, to a certain extent, using those attacks only for tough mobs, or for large groups of mobs. Otherwise you oughtta be making the best use of your weapons.

But, Sega (and virtually every other Action RPG developer) has made it so you can simply go about blasting enemies to smithereens 24/7. You DO have a PP bar, but its essentially a joke. And that's not just for Forces, but all classes in this game. You can spam spam spam until you run out of fluids, and then simply hop in a telepipe back to town and restock, repeating the process until you finish the level. Their is a similar issue with mates, because the general strategy of enemies in PSZ is to simply hit you with some ungodly powerful attack which wipes out 4/5ths of your health bar, forcing you to use a mate, or killing you on the spot if youve already taken a bit of damage. But its all a joke because their is no death penalty and one can easily just pipe back to town to restock.

PSZ at least attempts to combat this error with limited stacks of restorative items, unlike games like Sacred or Dungeon Siege in which the best strategy for beating bosses is oftentimes simply emptying your inventory and filling it with nothing but HP and MP potions and spamming their hotkey's until the boss falls. But it's still not a good system. This idea is further exacerbated by the fact that like so many eastern made games, currency is little more than a joke, as you will always have more than enough in PSZ, meaning you dont need to ration it out to buy gear AND restoratives.

The only game that is coming out that's actually combating this problem is the Action RPG's great-granddaddy, Diablo 3. I've never been a huge fan of diablo, but when I heard that they had gotten rid of potions (both HP and MP) in game, I was ecstatic. Best idea ever, they're replacing them with orb's that drop from enemies, like God of War. This means you can't play a mage that does nothing but blast enemies all the time unless your actually killing enough mobs with it.

Basically, if you want the TL: DR version:

-Restoratives are, effectively, infinite in this and many other action RPG's, because you can warp back to town at any time.
-This means that the real reason Forces are overpowered is because they can endlessly spam there attacks, making the "limiting" effect the PP bar should have a joke.
-The same can be said of healing items, though to a slightly lesser extent.
-Diablo 3 is pretty much the only game actually doing anything about this stupid system.

I agree with Niered about this. When I do see FO doing insane damage, it's because they can spam a spell on a whole group of enemies as fast as I can combo. And they do it w/o missing. On boss fights, where I tend to do more damage than forces, they can heal the whole group very well. making them invaluable there too. The long fights don't really balance this out. Unless you're under-leveled you probably finish the fight with plenty of mates and fluids in your inventory.

[kongajinken]

Don't over play the easiness of other classes, while claiming how every little thing about being a force is much harder. It not only makes you look extremely bias, but it gives less credibility to the points that are valid.

[Trina]

No not really. We're somehow extremely biased when we have like, PLAYED THE CLASS AND NOTICED HOW EZ it was.

Put two equally skilled players, one of them force and the other one hunter or range on a same game. Force does more damage! Can heal themselves for full HP! Can spam damage AoE! Has easier to dodge because basic cast animations are alot faster and less stiff than attack or PA animations! Can cast the best attack buff and debuff by themselves! etc etc.

They don't invest into ATA as extra stat either unlike the other classes which means they can just simply go high +MST plus a little +MaxHP on the side so they don't get 1hit killed.

[TaciturnBadger]

Eh, that's just my opinion though. Feel free to begin dousing me with flames....Now.

Just be forewarned, I HAVE already said rar at you.

...rar.

Hmm... wouldn't this be a foie war? :-P

[SquashDemon]

Don't over play the easiness of other classes, while claiming how every little thing about being a force is much harder. It not only makes you look extremely bias, but it gives less credibility to the points that are valid.

Sorry if I offended you, but that's honestly how I see things, don't get me wrong, I play HUnewm, it's my only character above level ten and I love it to bits, it's my favorite style of gameplay, but the fact of the matter is, the only actual challenging part of playing that character is dodgerolling precisely and on time.

I really DON'T believe Hunters and Rangers are as difficult to play well as Forces.

And I really don't think that their strengths outweigh their weaknesses in this game, especially when we consider their PSO forefathers who were able to do the same kinds of damage but from damn near rifle range.

I've already addressed the heal for max HP thing, so I'm just gonna say rar and leave it at that.


Hmm... wouldn't this be a foie war? :-P

Crap you're right! Where's my Flame Resist?!

[Niered]

He is right though. Your making Forces sound like theyre so much harder to play, but I and most others wouldnt agree. Even if a force does get hit, its a simply button tap like any other class to heal, with the added benefit that they can never really run out of resta.

More importantly, if you think that forces really have to do anything more than spam whatever elelemental attack is available to them, then you are sort of overplaying their difficulty. Forces can put multiple techs on there pallete, making it much easier to switch strategies. But if my Ranger walks into a room with an arkzein or a izhirak, I have to open my menu and equip a my melee weapon. That take's a bit longer than simply pressing a different button.

And of course, for bosses it's pretty much just spam a slicer.

[TaciturnBadger]

In my not-so-humble opinion, I have to admit that Force's melee strike power being based off MST is pretty lametarded. The whole point behind a Force is to NOT BE SMACKING ENEMIES WITH YOUR HANDS!

That having been said, my FOnewm is still only lv. 14, so I can't really say whether or not I think they're overpowered yet. Though I did think it was pretty s*cky that, at lv. 1 with the light post of a starting weapon they give you, he could do more damage per strike than my lv. 1 HUmar. *eye roll* Seems kind of backwards.

Kind of like back in the AD&D days when a fighter specializing with Darts could do more damage at lv. 1 per round than a fighter specializing in a Broadsword.

[Niered]

I dont find the idea of Force weapons melee damage being based off of MST that lame, but I agree that it is pretty stupid that their damage output is equal to or higher than a character using a weapon based off of ATP. It should definitely have some kind of modifier to it, like perhaps the enemies Tech resistance's are added to the enemies DFP. That would make a certain amount of sense as well as make the weapon considerably weaker.

[TaciturnBadger]

I suppose that's better worded, though the sentiment is largely the same. Good in theory, just a sloppy execution.

[Weeaboolits]

The fun in playing a melee force was that it wasn't as straightforward as hunter as well, you had to buff debuff and take advantage of your techs in order to keep up, in addition to having a limited weapon selection, it was a bit more interesting, in PSZ, all I've had to do is equip a strong rod and spam rodeo drive, healing as necessary, granted it probably becomes less easy come super hard, but even so, my point still stands. Though without the quick menu, the old method of melee force doesn't work nearly as well.