help dealing with gran sorcerers as a force

[osbourne]

I'm going into ultimate ruins for the first time with a pure force character. While I can handle the mobs just fine, the gran sorcerers are giving me a bit of trouble.

Does anyone have any tips for me?

[NegaTsukasa]

yes. first of all .what level are you?

second. a trick I always did when they were a hassle for me was to freeze them as fast as you can, and then strike them with a powerful spell or a strong multi strike weapon (like G-assasin sabers) as fast as possible. D-cellulars are very likely to freeze more often than other enemies. (at least in my luck.) so Thats one strategy.

If that is to risky, try staying on the edge of a border between one room and the next and then do a Hit and Hide until it dies.

[osbourne]

Sorry about not including that in the OP. She's a level 138 fonewearl.

[NegaTsukasa]

ah. that chnages the playing feild a bit. Since they are not very "physical attack" savy (my younger sibling was one), and at your level, I would freeze them, and then cast a faster more direct spell at it as much as possible. take out the jewels if you can.
find out what spell hurts it the most, and then when it unfreezes try freezing it again. if no luck happens and he is charging his attack, run to the next room as fast as possible, then start the process over.

I wouldn't try physicaly attacking these guys. you got a much more powerful arsenal. most Fonewearl weapons only aid them in their magic. seldomly will a weapon be good for physical attacks up to a certian point. but their attack power is not all that impressive. It all depends on what your going for really. and your mag can help greatly.

Either way, this might make things easier in the future against monsters. especialy when you tackle the Ult. Central Control area and Sea Bed. Those are a trip.

[DreXxiN]

Gizonde him and his spell thingies will go down super fast. Now he's useless, pwn that fool.

[psofan219]

I would tell you how I dealt with them on GC as a FOmar, but it's just too complicated :-P So I'll say go with Tsukasas strategy, freeze them, then hit them with the tech that hits hardest. May not always work, so you may want to prioritize their attack crystal first. I've found them to be generally easy to take out. His healing crystal wasn't a problem for me, since I could just blow everything up with Rafoie a couple times to reverse the healing he did.

[DreXxiN]

Well...if you Gizonde all the crystals die.

[NegaTsukasa]

Well...if you Gizonde all the crystals die.

I was thinking of Gizonde when I wrote my earlier respons.
Its a good direct attack to use.
It's direct but still spreads.

[DreXxiN]

It's just that the crystals are very weak to lightning.

[Splash]

The attacking crystal is the one weak to Zonde. I don't recall the healing one to be weak to it also. But that's fine.

Razonde does better to clear a room of Gran Sorcerers if there are multiple of them.

The quickest way to kill a Gran Sorcerer is to just attack the body. Though as a Force, that would probably be hard to do.

[Cranberry]

The technique weakness for a Gran Sorcerer is Grants. But as stated the Zonde series is good for destroying its attack crystal. Use Grants on the main body for the most technique damage.

[DreXxiN]

Err, no. It may hit the highest numbers but Foie is superior for DPS due to faster tech speeds. The difference between Grants and Foie damage isn't big enough to close the gap. Foie is also easier to manually aim.

Not to mention once you get Si Merge or Summit moon Foie dominates Grants by a long shot.

[Splash]

Err, no. It may hit the highest numbers but Foie is superior for DPS due to faster tech speeds. The difference between Grants and Foie damage isn't big enough to close the gap. Foie is also easier to manually aim.


The technique weakness for a Gran Sorcerer is Grants. But as stated the Zonde series is good for destroying its attack crystal. Use Grants on the main body for the most technique damage.

Read. Did it say anything about DPS? I didn't think so.

[DreXxiN]

Read. Did it say anything about DPS? I didn't think so.

Are you really going to call me out on idiocy when you are misinterpreting it moreso? Seriously, think it out otherwise you just make yourself look like an ignorant prick.

Most technique damage would refer to the largest amount of damage done to the Gran Sorcerer. In total, meaning better DPS would be better total damage over time. I don't think he said "the most damage in one cast."

Also the topic is "how to deal with gran sorcerers as force", and doing more foies faster would have a better chance of killing it without danger than casting a grants.

Now, please quote in the post where it specifies "The most damage in one cast." Does it say that? I didn't think so.

So if I hit with a saber once a second for 500 damage, but I shoot 3 times with a mechgun for 333 a shot in 1/3 a second, totaling to 999 damage in 1 second, by your logic, the saber does more damage because it has a bigger number, right? *Facepalm*

Read.

Also, even then:


Not to mention once you get Si Merge or Summit moon Foie dominates Grants by a long shot.

Foie will do BIGGAR NUMBERZ! So you should be a fan!

[Cranberry]

This post has been edited after I realized he was using a FOnewearl. At first I didn't realize what class he was using.

For Foie vs Grants, it's going to depend on his tech levels.

A FOnewearl has a 30% boost to Foie. Since accoreding to the topic title this is Gamecube version SI merge does not exist. Foie Merge exists however, but I don't know if he has that.

Now I don't know what his MST and tech levels are, but in the PSO tech damage calculator, I gave him 1200 MST and level 23 techs. Here are the damage results.

132 Foie by itself
162 Foie with Summit Moon
193 Foie with Summit Moon and Foie Merge
392 Grants
470 Grants with Cadeceus

In all cases except no Foie boost vs Cadeceus, Foie must be cast 3 times in order to outdamage 1 Grants. Although if he has both a Summit Moon and a Foie Merge, 2 Foies are only slightly less damage than 1 Grants in this example. The numbers vary depending on tech levels and MST.

So, if he is able to cast 3 Foies for every 1 Grants, Foie will surpass it. If he is not able to cast 3 Foies for ever 1 Grants, Grants will do more damage per second. However, this can of course change greatly if his Foie is a significantly higher level than his Grants. I have no way of knowing what his tech levels are and the comparision here was done on equal level 23 techs.

The results here were calculated against an offline enemy.

[DreXxiN]

Ah, yeah. My apologies in that respect, being that I forgot about the non boosting stuff on GC. However, I still do believe that Foie is much easier to aim and confront with, and let's not forget Grants targetting can be very "random"...

but assuming she has the gear (not hard too achieve really, even on Gamecube..pretty common stuff =O) even DPS wise without the boosts Foie is potentially better.

[Splash]

Are you really going to call me out on idiocy when you are misinterpreting it moreso? Seriously, think it out otherwise you just make yourself look like an ignorant prick.
Nope, and I was most certainly not calling you out on idiocy. I simply didn't agree how your interpret of what "most technique damage" meant.


Most technique damage would refer to the largest amount of damage done to the Gran Sorcerer. In total, meaning better DPS would be better total damage over time. I don't think he said "the most damage in one cast."

Also the topic is "how to deal with gran sorcerers as force", and doing more foies faster would have a better chance of killing it without danger than casting a grants.

Now, please quote in the post where it specifies "The most damage in one cast." Does it say that? I didn't think so.

So if I hit with a saber once a second for 500 damage, but I shoot 3 times with a mechgun for 333 a shot in 1/3 a second, totaling to 999 damage in 1 second, by your logic, the saber does more damage because it has a bigger number, right? *Facepalm*
"Technique" is singular. It was not saying which technique could do more damage overall, it specifically said one technique (singular) that will do more damage to a Gran Sorcerer (i.e. a single strike, therefore yes it is indeed saying "The most damage in one cast", and the post before you acknowledges it by showing you results from a single cast). And no doubt that would be Grants, minus any boosts. Foie would have been the correct answer, had it said "the fastest way to kill it is Grants" (aka DPS), which would have been debatable, but no less I wouldn't disagree that Foie does more DPS.

So your Saber analogy is invalid. It's akin to saying "Saber does the most weapon damage" (strictly for the example), which is true since 500 > 333; it does not say "the fastest way to kill it is using a Saber". If it did, then that would be wrong.

Understand now?

[DreXxiN]

Ah okay, gotcha. So since you take one word out of a phrase and say it's singular, it must mean there is no given situation that it can be turned into plural via adverbs. Makes perfect sense.

No. It's just vague entirely. If you ask, "Hey guys how much damage can Barta do?" you need to specify regardless.

"Well Jim, it can do 600 trillion damage if you plan on staying up awhile, just cast it over and over!"

She very specifically said "Use grants on the body for the most technique damage." Now let's go with your ideology.

It would translate to "Use grants on the body for the most technique." That doesn't make much sense, does it? You can't just take one word out and claim that it was singular. Taking anything out changes EVERYTHING. It's like saying "Mazer cannon is fucking fantastic" versus "Mazer cannon is fucking fantastic for opening boxes." Completely different.

So no, "Technique Damage" is NOT Singular, since the verb is "Damage" and "Technique" is the adverb and "Damage" is plural, and all that technique applies to the phrase is specifications to what type of damage is applied, and since the case of singular versus plural wasn't suggested or shown, there was no reason for you to say "Read, did it say anything about DPS? I didn't think so." Because it didn't say anything about "The Technique that hits the hardest one time" either.

You cannot put reasoning on something that simply acts as an adverb and not the verb itself.

"Annie catered to the guests very kindly." You cannot apply the kind of logic you are explaining by mentioning "kindly" because the verb in usage is "catered."

Also, not only that, but "killing fastest" would be most relevant and helpful to the OP's concern anyway. :)

[Splash]

There is no adverb. "Technique damage" is a whole entity, "most" is an adjective modified on that entity. Therefore, "technique damage" is still singular. I only mentioned "technique" to make things simpler to understand, but it looks like you didn't get it.

If "technique" was an adverb, then you are implying that the adjective ("most") is modifying the adverb and that's just gramatically plain wrong. Furthermore, "damage" can't be a verb because then you are saying that the damage is the action you are doing which would say that you are damaging the subject of the sentence aka Grants. That makes no sense.

Recall that the sentence itself says:

Use Grants on the main body for the most technique damage.

Recall how I said it would be different had it said: "The fastest way to kill it is using Grants".

Neither sentence has an adverb in it, all that is different is how the adjective is used. In that case, modify the first sentence with the adjective of the second sentence and you get this:

"Use Grants on the main body for the fastest technique damage."

Like I said, now this would be more akin to what you are saying with DPS since now it talks about speed (or if you want to make things complicated, implied due to the word "fastest"). In this case, it would debatably be Foie, in which case I would have agreed also.

Anyways, yes, irregardless it is still relevant to the topic. But you should have directed at the OP and not that other post.

[DreXxiN]

The term "technique damage" was too vague to call me out the way you did and that's the whole point.

If you really want to get technical and remove the first half of the sentence, then yes "damage" is the noun, "most" is the adverb (you cannot link adjectives, therefore it is an adverb as stated), "technique" would be an adjective, and "damage" would be a noun. "technique damage" is not a noun in itself and standalone if it is not a proper noun.

Also, it was directed at the OP, just not entirely. Cranberry was offering advice (to the OP) on the "most technique damage", which was vague, and therefore could be countered by the more useful (unless you kill it in one less hit, which would save a millisecond, but is then countered by the difficult targeting of grants due to its randomness in nature) "DPS" calculation (which again..is more useful than the "most technique damage", which isn't even remotely close to what the OP wanted, by your definition, for an answer due to the fact that it doesn't make clearing Gran Sorcerers any easier, where high DPS will as you will sustain less damage.)
It still doesn't justify calling me out like you did.

"Fastest" and "Most" would be the same in this sentence regardless because assuming you don't kill it in 2 shots, the stacked damage of two Foie's would ultimately total to more[b] damage than one strong grants, making it the [b]most against said enemy.

[Cranberry]

Okay. Since this is still going on, I feel a visual aid is in order.

I made a Youtube video showing Foie vs Grants. The results are pretty conclusive.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdMpxlFCdZo

I don't know what this Grants randomness is that you mentioned. As you can see in the video, there was no randomness with it.

[DreXxiN]

Okay. Since this is still going on, I feel a visual aid is in order.

I made a Youtube video showing Foie vs Grants. The results are pretty conclusive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdMpxlFCdZo

I don't know what this Grants randomness is that you mentioned. As you can see in the video, there was no randomness with it.

Firstly, I already apologized because I made my calculations based on BB items, then it turned into some weird Grammar war.

Secondly, I assume that the OP isn't running ruins and constantly fighting rooms that have JUST a Gran Sorcerer. That'd be one easy fucking stroll through ruins.

If you're manually focus firing the most dangerous enemy in a ruins room (which as a FOnewearl you will be doing for the most part as a low level), then Foie is best, whereas Grants will target something random for the most part. (J/Z can save you from the Merlans/Arlans/Del-D's, leaving you practically invulnerable assuming you are in single player as opposed to the Megid of Gran Sorcerers)

However, if the OP is actually having trouble with just killing one Gran Sorcerer...well then there are deeper problems...

Well either way, I aided the OP in "how to deal with them" right from the start so it doesn't really matter. If it's really giving you trouble then you can Gizonde the attack crystal. (Which is better than Zonde, I might add, for the same reasons I suggested Foie instead of Grants...with the added bonus of stunlocking anything that may be in front of the Sorcerer.)

[Splash]

If you really want to get technical and remove the first half of the sentence, then yes "damage" is the noun, "most" is the adverb (you cannot link adjectives, therefore it is an adverb as stated), "technique" would be an adjective, and "damage" would be a noun. "technique damage" is not a noun in itself and standalone if it is not a proper noun.
No. Who said you can't link adjectives? Consider "most" and "impressive", two adjectives. "Most impressive" is still gramatically correct. "Most impressively" isn't however.

As for the original sentence, if you claim that "technique" is an adjective that is describing the noun "damage", then you essentially are saying that damage is a technique. That makes no sense. Furthermore, "technique" is a proper noun, it is the name given for the "magic" in game. "Damage" is also a noun, as we agree. Therefore, "technique damage" is a noun (one entity).


Also, it was directed at the OP, just not entirely. Cranberry was offering advice (to the OP) on the "most technique damage", which was vague, and therefore could be countered by the more useful (unless you kill it in one less hit, which would save a millisecond, but is then countered by the difficult targeting of grants due to its randomness in nature) "DPS" calculation (which again..is more useful than the "most technique damage", which isn't even remotely close to what the OP wanted, by your definition, for an answer due to the fact that it doesn't make clearing Gran Sorcerers any easier, where high DPS will as you will sustain less damage.)
It still doesn't justify calling me out like you did.
No, I called you out because you seemed to have misinterpreted what it said. Perhaps I could have said in a calmer matter, and for that I will apologize if it sounded "abrupt". But no less, I saw no indication of mentioning DPS except until you brought it up so I don't see how you see it as "vague". Indeed, it may be useful for this topic, but no less that you directed at the wrong post.


"Fastest" and "Most" would be the same in this sentence regardless because assuming you don't kill it in 2 shots, the stacked damage of two Foie's would ultimately total to more damage than one strong grants, [B]making it the [b]most against said enemy.
Uh what? You tell me in that phrase if it even sounds correct or not. "Making it the most" doesn't even sound right. "Making it the best" would fit. It's like I said, the adjective does affect what the context means, and in that sentence, "best" and "most" don't work identically. Therefore, in the original sentence, "fastest" and "most" are not the same.


Anyways...since I'm not contributing anything on-topic, I'll just leave it that. Sorry OP for making this off-topic. Anyways, Foie or Grants on the body. That's all it matters.

[Cranberry]

In his original post the toic creator stated that he is handleing the mobs just fine. He states that it is the Gran Sorcers he is having difficulty with. Thus my advice to him was for Gran Sorcerers rather than mobs. You see, one problem low level forces often have with a Gran Sorcerer is that they are unable to do enough damage with techniques to defeat him before he casts Resta. This is why I suggest Grants for the body. Please recall that my original message was refering to damage to the body of the sorcerer. It was not about how to fight all the mobs, as I didn't feel the topic creator needed help with the mobs.

I feel it may also be helpful to state that the healing crystal is vulnerable to fire. It would not be a bad idea for the topic creator to use Gifoie or Rafoie until the healing crystal is destroyed, and then switch to Grants to defeat the sorcerer. Doing this will prevent his damage from being healed by Resta. If other enemies happen to be around, Gifoie or Rafoie may damage them as well.

When it comes to fighting multiple enemies, I feel we will all agree that the best strategy depends on the situation.

I hope this post clears things up.

As for Grants randomness, now I feel I understand what you mean. It's not so much that it's random, but Grants has a tendancy to hit things that are closest to you, as well as closest to the ground. Because the Chaos Sorcerer flies, Grants tends to target something closer to the ground if it comes equal distance to you. If you are engaging multiple enemies, depending on their position they may interfear with your shot. In a case like this, it may be advisable to eliminate them first before turning your attention to the sorcerer. Personally, I usually save the Sorcers for last. I thought by randomness you were saying Grants would randomly target one of the crystals.

If one is truely having trouble with the Sorcerers, they might try this strategy. Use a Gifoie from outside a room, and then enter the room to spawn the Sorcerer and immediately retreat and continue casting the technique. Not only will this gradually damage the sorcerer, but it will destroy the healing crystal as well. This is an affective tactic to use if you are unable to survive the Grants.

Thank you for your input DreXxin. I hope that we have provided the topic creater with enough options to find a solution to his problem.

[DreXxiN]

Therefore, "technique damage" is a noun (one entity).

No.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noun


Furthermore, "technique" is a proper noun,
[spoiler-box]Proper nouns (also called proper names) are nouns representing unique entities (such as London, Jupiter or Johnny), as distinguished from common nouns which describe a class of entities (such as city, planet or person).[8] Proper nouns are not normally preceded by an article or other limiting modifier (such as any or some), and are used to denote a particular person, place, or thing without regard to any descriptive meaning the word or phrase may have.[/spoiler-box]


Uh what? You tell me in that phrase if even sounds correct or not. "Making it the most" doesn't even sound right. "Making it the best" would fit.

Well unfortunately, English isn't dictated by what you think "sounds the best" or "looks right," it is what it is.


I saw no indication of mentioning DPS except until you brought it up.
And there was absolutely no specific mention of "the best damage in one casting" either, nullifying the whole reason you'd call my post out.

@Cranberry: Yes, I understand and read thoroughly that he is handling the mobs just fine, but handling the mobs WITH a Gran Sorcerer is another story. I would have suggested Rafoie or Gifoie but with how ruins resistances already are, plus her most likely not having a Psycho Wand (Unsure on the Gifoie/Rafoie merge) and being a FOnewearl which already isn't the most (but possibly the second) efficient "nuker", I can't imagine the damage would be too hot. Plus let's remember that she's not 200, so the Gran Sorcerer is much more of a threat to her than for you.

That's why I suggested taking advantage of her Si- tech boosts and focus-firing the Gran Sorcerer to avoid further harm, and also the healing of everything around her. As a "first timer" in the Ruins as she has stated, I think it's best for her to take it safe and take out the strongest things first, since Jellen nullifies most of the melee threats.

[Cranberry]

I feel that between everything that has been said, the topic creater should now be able to handle Gran Sorcerers.

It has been a pleasure discussing tactics with you DreXxiN. I hope they have solved the problem for him.

[DreXxiN]

Likewise, and forces in ruins can get iffy so I wish that player good luck. x_x. Not sure why my original post said "can get lucky" >_>

[NegaTsukasa]

honestly, it reeeeeaaally all depends on the level of the technique and what weapon you use to boost that technique to satisfying results.
personally the Gran sorceror can give a s%#* about how and what you do or use to attack it.

Just go with what floats your boat. What ever you think kills it faster just go with it.

I agree with cranberry, you should be more than well off when it comes to handling sorcerer's after all of this.