if you can hold 99,999,999 meseta then...

[Jinxpalm]

That's 99 million correct?

How do I see ppl wanting to sell stuff for hundreds of millions if you can only hold 99?

I must be missing something.

[Myztic]

Some weapons are worth more than you can hold.
In order to pay someone more than you can hold, you give them items that are worth a certain amount of money.

I believe you can get a GM to monitor your trades too, just in case :P

[DragonStriker]

Some weapons are worth more than you can hold.
In order to pay someone more than you can hold, you give them items that are worth a certain amount of money.

I believe you can get a GM to monitor your trades too, just in case :P

You probably won't be able to get a GM to monitor trades, but as stated a lot of people just give values to items and use that as currency to make the trades safer. On the 360 people use a stack of S+10 (which sell for about 1mil) as a stack, so if you want to buy something worth 300mil you might give the player 1 stack of meseta and 2 stacks of S+10 in one trade window. Honestly a lot of times it just comes down to trust, for the most part no one is stupid enough to jip you in a trade. The community is too small and they would never live it down. If you can't get a GM to moderate it I suggest bringing friends so atleast you have witnesses.

[Shou]

Some people cannot wrap their mind around any item being worth over 99mil. (Not saying the OP is). An wasy way to explain it is that, for many items, obtaining 99mil is much easier than obtaining said item. I just want to strangle anyone who does not understand that logic... >_> they are out there...

[DragonStriker]

Some people cannot wrap their mind around any item being worth over 99mil. (Not saying the OP is). An wasy way to explain it is that, for many items, obtaining 99mil is much easier than obtaining said item. I just want to strangle anyone who does not understand that logic... >_> they are out there...

Kind of like the morons who think luck and GBR boost don't effect boss boxes. Expecially the ones who don't even run GBRs long enough to tell a difference.

[Shou]

Those Xbox fumes have gotten to you. :(

[DragonStriker]

Those Xbox fumes have gotten to you. :(

No I have always thought GBR affected boss boxes. You would have to be retarded not to think so, just play the game and you'll see a huge difference.

[Shou]

Guess I am retarded then. :(

[DragonStriker]

Guess I am retarded then. :(

Well you are just uninformed, how's that sound? :0

[pikachief]

Guess I am retarded then. :(

i guess i am too, running a GBR mission with gold luck 3 weeks straight(got 50% in 2 days lol) then running that same mission losing count after 250 times and noticing no difference.

if there is one it must not be very big lol

i also must've been misinformed by the GM's themselves for I distinctly remember them stating that It did not increase quality of drops, but only the quantity :)

[Volcompat321]

Honestly, I never cared to notice.
I just went about my business while doing the GBR's.
The only one I really tried on was the Colony one, during StD.
Even then, I didn't notice anything either.

[Keilyn]

An online game is sent two queries in its programming regarding drops.

Will a drop be generated for pickup?
What drop will be generated if the pickup returns true?

GBR and Luck have all the bearing on the first question...Not for the second...

The logic behind this lies in the fact that if GBR and Luck combined truly did affect the boss drops, it would be noticeable by practically every player who TAs a map for the boss drops.

Suppose your drop rate is 10%....and then say that Luck boosts it by 3%...Making it 13%...

GBR at +50% could have two posibilities....

Possibility 1 would be: (10 x 1.5) + Luck = 18
Possibility 2 would be: (10 + Luck) x 1.5 = 19.5

GBR at +300% would be

Possibility 1: (10 x 4) + luck = 43
Possibility 2: (10+3) x 4 = 52

Now if we were to program a game....There are two ways to control what drops out of a box...

Method 1) Random...Give the probability of each drop in a box to be equal meaning the more common items will always drop since more common items are on the list of posssible drops...though the chances are equal in each drop, what makes an item rare is that less rare items are in the list to be generated for that box.

in PSU you can get Materials and Items in the boxes aside from what is listed in the drop charts.

Method 2) Program by Percentages

Simply give each item a percentage and modify that percentage somehow by GBR and luck...This of course would force to write code that would reduce the percentage of common items from dropping in favor of the more uncommon to rare items because mathematically...

If you apply a percentage that equally affects all objects (Like GBR is), since the multiplication is the same on all objects, the list remains the same......(Commutative Property)

Here is an example

Item 1 10%
Item 2 20%
Item 3 30%
Item 4 40%
Total 100% //meaning always a drop

If I multiplied each item by say 400% (meaning x 4), I still can only work with 100%...so the probability will remain the exact same....meaning no effect.

If I changed things in a way where a common item loses percentage and an uncommon to rare item gains a higher percentage, then the common item become uncommon and even rare while the Rare and uncommon items become common..

Now comes the point of this post:

GBR won't change the quality of box drops....since they are programmed to the point each player can identify which of the boxes will contain the said item on a map..If GBR truly did affect the clear boxes...

then even a change of 5% would mean you would most like find a drop once every 20 runs give or take one or two runs...In short...a rare would become uncommon to even common to the point it would lose its worth....which is another proof in itself...

We don't see everyone with a Granahadora, L/PC, L/TC and Adana Cannon...and we see the value high...GBR didn't help much in Neu Ork drops either ^_^

[Anon_Fire]

In the JP version, 99,999,999 Meseta can be converted into 9 Gold Bars.

Leaving with 9,999,999 Meseta left because Gold Bars are worth 10mil

[DragonStriker]

An online game is sent two queries in its programming regarding drops.

Will a drop be generated for pickup?
What drop will be generated if the pickup returns true?

GBR and Luck have all the bearing on the first question...Not for the second...

The logic behind this lies in the fact that if GBR and Luck combined truly did affect the boss drops, it would be noticeable by practically every player who TAs a map for the boss drops.

Suppose your drop rate is 10%....and then say that Luck boosts it by 3%...Making it 13%...

GBR at +50% could have two posibilities....

Possibility 1 would be: (10 x 1.5) + Luck = 18
Possibility 2 would be: (10 + Luck) x 1.5 = 19.5

GBR at +300% would be

Possibility 1: (10 x 4) + luck = 43
Possibility 2: (10+3) x 4 = 52

Now if we were to program a game....There are two ways to control what drops out of a box...

Method 1) Random...Give the probability of each drop in a box to be equal meaning the more common items will always drop since more common items are on the list of posssible drops...though the chances are equal in each drop, what makes an item rare is that less rare items are in the list to be generated for that box.

in PSU you can get Materials and Items in the boxes aside from what is listed in the drop charts.

Method 2) Program by Percentages

Simply give each item a percentage and modify that percentage somehow by GBR and luck...This of course would force to write code that would reduce the percentage of common items from dropping in favor of the more uncommon to rare items because mathematically...

If you apply a percentage that equally affects all objects (Like GBR is), since the multiplication is the same on all objects, the list remains the same......(Commutative Property)

Here is an example

Item 1 10%
Item 2 20%
Item 3 30%
Item 4 40%
Total 100% //meaning always a drop

If I multiplied each item by say 400% (meaning x 4), I still can only work with 100%...so the probability will remain the exact same....meaning no effect.

If I changed things in a way where a common item loses percentage and an uncommon to rare item gains a higher percentage, then the common item become uncommon and even rare while the Rare and uncommon items become common..

Now comes the point of this post:

GBR won't change the quality of box drops....since they are programmed to the point each player can identify which of the boxes will contain the said item on a map..If GBR truly did affect the clear boxes...

then even a change of 5% would mean you would most like find a drop once every 20 runs give or take one or two runs...In short...a rare would become uncommon to even common to the point it would lose its worth....which is another proof in itself...

We don't see everyone with a Granahadora, L/PC, L/TC and Adana Cannon...and we see the value high...GBR didn't help much in Neu Ork drops either ^_^

Do you people even play the game? it's painfully obvious that boost effects boss boxes. This entire post is made up vast assumptions of numbers which we don't have access to. Your math didn't prove anything and was essentially worthless in regards to this game because you have no idea how their math is setup. Obviously the drop rates on this game are harder than "1 every 20 runs" and it's painfully obvious that none of you did this mission with 300% and then did it without the boost. There's such a huge difference in not just the super hard rares to find but the walna and slightly easier rares. A good example of this is Neu walna at forest infiltration, during my 300% parties and others they were finding walna consistently every run, now go run there and even with 3* it's a lot less common. It's honestly pathetic how you just made gigantic assumptions throughout your post and called it fact, now I'm not saying I'm definately right on this matter but honestly if you ask anyone and I mean anyone who played high % parties during GBRs and then did a lot of missions without the boost they will tell you the drops are much worse. Now lastly as pathetic as Edward is he also confirmed the boost of boss boxes. Now after this post I'm going to quote you again and show you every single assumption you made to try and prove your point.

[DragonStriker]

An online game is sent two queries in its programming regarding drops.

Will a drop be generated for pickup?
What drop will be generated if the pickup returns true?-----Both are assumptions that this is what SEGA used.

GBR and Luck have all the bearing on the first question...Not for the second...---Assumption.

The logic behind this lies in the fact that if GBR and Luck combined truly did affect the boss drops, it would be noticeable by practically every player who TAs a map for the boss drops.-----It is noticeable

Suppose your drop rate is 10%....and then say that Luck boosts it by 3%...Making it 13%...These numbers are just much too high to be true. If you tried fractions or smaller than 1 numbers they wouldn't be nearly as drastic.

GBR at +50% could have two posibilities....

Possibility 1 would be: (10 x 1.5) + Luck = 18
Possibility 2 would be: (10 + Luck) x 1.5 = 19.5

GBR at +300% would be

Possibility 1: (10 x 4) + luck = 43
Possibility 2: (10+3) x 4 = 52

Now if we were to program a game....There are two ways to control what drops out of a box...

Method 1) Random...Give the probability of each drop in a box to be equal meaning the more common items will always drop since more common items are on the list of posssible drops...though the chances are equal in each drop, what makes an item rare is that less rare items are in the list to be generated for that box.

in PSU you can get Materials and Items in the boxes aside from what is listed in the drop charts.---Assumption

Method 2) Program by Percentages

Simply give each item a percentage and modify that percentage somehow by GBR and luck...This of course would force to write code that would reduce the percentage of common items from dropping in favor of the more uncommon to rare items because mathematically...

If you apply a percentage that equally affects all objects (Like GBR is), since the multiplication is the same on all objects, the list remains the same......(Commutative Property)

Here is an example

Item 1 10%
Item 2 20%
Item 3 30%
Item 4 40%
Total 100% //meaning always a drop

If I multiplied each item by say 400% (meaning x 4), I still can only work with 100%...so the probability will remain the exact same....meaning no effect.

If I changed things in a way where a common item loses percentage and an uncommon to rare item gains a higher percentage, then the common item become uncommon and even rare while the Rare and uncommon items become common..

Now comes the point of this post:

GBR won't change the quality of box drops....since they are programmed to the point each player can identify which of the boxes will contain the said item on a map..If GBR truly did affect the clear boxes...

then even a change of 5% would mean you would most like find a drop once every 20 runs give or take one or two runs...In short...a rare would become uncommon to even common to the point it would lose its worth....which is another proof in itself...

We don't see everyone with a Granahadora, L/PC, L/TC and Adana Cannon...and we see the value high...GBR didn't help much in Neu Ork drops either ^_^


I honestly have no idea how SEGA works their drop rates and drops but there is absolutely no way you can make an assumption that you know how they did it. Now you could be right and Edward could have been lieing but don't come on the forums making assumption after assumption and presenting it as fact.

[Keilyn]

I play this game daily....compared most who just simply post and don't play the game.

I've also programmed games in modding groups since 1998 and am currently working on multiple large modifications. I run my own server to an old MMORPG that I have written the patching for and have modified and currently converting the server to another game.

I've played in high percentage GBRs 200 - 300% during the Colony GBR and they were with friends...We had attained 50% in the first two to four days of that GBR and had played together throughout....We saw with our own eyes what changed and what did not. We are not stupid.


Do you people even play the game? it's painfully obvious that boost effects boss boxes.

You have no direct evidence to prove that outside a GM saying "its confirmed" but when asked to logically prove it, could not come forward..


This entire post is made up vast assumptions of numbers which we don't have access to.

...Which proves your first sentence to also be false since you do not have access to the data itself. ^_^


Your math didn't prove anything and was essentially worthless in regards to this game because you have no idea how their math is setup.

Actually I don't have to see the code to a game to get a general idea of how it works. I've reprogrammed drop rates for some games as part of patching and most games use a similar scheme. Its true I don't have exact data and my words are assumptions which if you take a game programming course you will be taught this theory...There are four more ways to program a drop system but the basic architecture is the same..


Obviously the drop rates on this game are harder than "1 every 20 runs" and it's painfully obvious that none of you did this mission with 300% and then did it without the boost.

This being your third assumption.....many people in this forum did play with full 300% parties and reported the results and findings to their friends. You aren't the only one who plays, nor are you the only one who has a critical mind.


There's such a huge difference in not just the super hard rares to find but the walna and slightly easier rares.

And there is a difference between Clear Boxes and Area Boxes. Area Boxes are affected by Luck + GBR, Clear Boxes aren't...I just ran White Beast and got a Serafi-Senba Board on zero luck before the server went down for maintanance.



A good example of this is Neu walna at forest infiltration, during my 300% parties and others they were finding walna consistently every run, now go run there and even with 3* it's a lot less common.

Actually that is a horrible example because if you found 2 - 4 Neu Walna, the Random Item counter by probability you have a 16.66% chance of obtaining one....on a party of 6...Where I TA Eastern Peril with a friend and we had tons of Neu Walna showing up in a 3* group and have a 50% chance of having one go to me...so yeah I have three times the chances but you also have three times the people......but in the end I have a higher probability of completing a stack before you do...

..see how it balances out? ^_^

Also you have no way of proving it because as you said...you do not have the data itself...to see what affects luck or not...but wait! ^^ Aren't you making assumptions without having access to the data itself even though you just wrote a post about me being flawed from not having access to the data?


It's honestly pathetic how you just made gigantic assumptions throughout your post and called it fact,

Where and when did I explicitly state that my post is to be declared and treated as fact? My post was an argument that showed my view on why I think the way I do....I don't need you to believe that I am implying things when in the real world and online I am explicit as a person. So please don't put words in my mouth.



now I'm not saying I'm definately right on this matter but honestly if you ask anyone and I mean anyone who played high % parties during GBRs and then did a lot of missions without the boost they will tell you the drops are much worse.

No, this sentence is a "Im not, but I am" sentence...In conversational logic theory it passes as a contradiction and resolves by omitting the first statement.

Secondly, In Colony GBR and Moatoob GBR I had 50% boost and I actually got more drops that came to me after both GBRs....But you do not see me making a declaration that non-GBR parties are better than GBR parties or vice versa...I am one of those players who leads a small group and we ran 200 - 300% parties...and in boss battles saw no real difference.


Now lastly as pathetic as Edward is he also confirmed the boost of boss boxes. Now after this post I'm going to quote you again and show you every single assumption you made to try and prove your point.


So all it takes is someone from Sega to say anything to you and you will believe it right? I don't think Edwards is a programmer and knows the topology of game programming. I don't think the Japanese are going to come to the United States with a translator so someone can speak to Edwards and confirm it...and give him the source code that proves that to be true...

...so given my observations, my experiences in this game...along with my experience modding and patching games..as well as how I like to be logical about things...

I don't believe Edwards one bit...Not because he is good or bad...but because he said a line without offering any evidence when asked for it outside of "someone told me."

So would you believe me if I told you that God Spoke through my cat and then later materialized to give people in the neighborhood a holy cleansing and then we all went to heaven and drank a cup of coffee and was teleported back to the earth just in time for xmas?

Of course you wouldn't! But you are so quick to believe a person who has a title in sega to moderate the game we play on the basis of "A little birdie told me" ^^

Oh yeah..I almost forgot ^^


good example of this is Neu walna

Congratulations!!! ^^ Your Neu Walna example made it into my list of EPIC FAIL arguments in Online Gaming. This one Ranks #7 above "Dye Color helps me fight better" argument in Guild Wars and Below "Why Combat Arms Pwns Modern Warfare"

Try a little bit harder next time...you may reach the top 3 ^_^

[Midori Oku]

this thread makes me LOL
but im gonna have to agree with dragon striker on this one

[relentless]

What the hell? :)
GBR is a simple addition and also contributes to the fun which is barely left in this game.
I never needed that crap to find any item I wanted, some people sure are too unlucky.
Good old PSO-W.

[Shou]

Anyone who got more good boss drops durring GBR than w/o the GBR is going to be more inclined to conclude that GBR affects boss box drops. I believe that the GBR boost is the same as the luck system. I think this because SEGA is lazy and I doubt that they made a brand new drop boost system just for GBRs.

I ran the first Neudaiz GBR with a 50% and boss drops dropped with the regular frequency as always. But that's not why I think GBR % does not affect boss drops. I believe that GBR% increases the rate that an enemy will drop an item and the quality of some box materials. Thats it.

[Anon_Fire]

That's 99 million correct?

How do I see ppl wanting to sell stuff for hundreds of millions if you can only hold 99?

I must be missing something.

Like I said last time, You can convert that into 9 Gold Bars (90mil Meseta) leaving with you 9,999,999 meseta. Mostly people can trade stuff worth that much along with "Gold Bars"

[DragonStriker]

Honestly if you believe they don't effect boss drops, then just go play the game. Neither you nor Shou played the game very much while I was there so I'm inclined to believe you played just a couple hours a week. Which is hardly enough time to tell whether or not they effect it. Like I said anyone who's played the GBRs a lot and the missions without GBR would tell you they saw a difference, it's just the morons who rarely play and log on once a blue moon who believe something else. Now obviously Edward could have lied to us all but what makes you believe something else? a bunch or moronic assumptions. My evidence for my opinion is the fact EVERYONE who plays the game a lot knows it does effect it. It's hilarious how Shou brings up the first Neudaiz GBR which only had one mission with significant boss drops and says that's why he believes something. Oh and not to mention that was over a year ago, which only proves when I say none of you played the game enough.

[DragonStriker]

I play this game daily....compared most who just simply post and don't play the game.

I've also programmed games in modding groups since 1998 and am currently working on multiple large modifications. I run my own server to an old MMORPG that I have written the patching for and have modified and currently converting the server to another game.

I've played in high percentage GBRs 200 - 300% during the Colony GBR and they were with friends...We had attained 50% in the first two to four days of that GBR and had played together throughout....We saw with our own eyes what changed and what did not. We are not stupid.



You have no direct evidence to prove that outside a GM saying "its confirmed" but when asked to logically prove it, could not come forward..



...Which proves your first sentence to also be false since you do not have access to the data itself. ^_^



Actually I don't have to see the code to a game to get a general idea of how it works. I've reprogrammed drop rates for some games as part of patching and most games use a similar scheme. Its true I don't have exact data and my words are assumptions which if you take a game programming course you will be taught this theory...There are four more ways to program a drop system but the basic architecture is the same..



This being your third assumption.....many people in this forum did play with full 300% parties and reported the results and findings to their friends. You aren't the only one who plays, nor are you the only one who has a critical mind.



And there is a difference between Clear Boxes and Area Boxes. Area Boxes are affected by Luck + GBR, Clear Boxes aren't...I just ran White Beast and got a Serafi-Senba Board on zero luck before the server went down for maintanance.




Actually that is a horrible example because if you found 2 - 4 Neu Walna, the Random Item counter by probability you have a 16.66% chance of obtaining one....on a party of 6...Where I TA Eastern Peril with a friend and we had tons of Neu Walna showing up in a 3* group and have a 50% chance of having one go to me...so yeah I have three times the chances but you also have three times the people......but in the end I have a higher probability of completing a stack before you do...

..see how it balances out? ^_^

Also you have no way of proving it because as you said...you do not have the data itself...to see what affects luck or not...but wait! ^^ Aren't you making assumptions without having access to the data itself even though you just wrote a post about me being flawed from not having access to the data?



Where and when did I explicitly state that my post is to be declared and treated as fact? My post was an argument that showed my view on why I think the way I do....I don't need you to believe that I am implying things when in the real world and online I am explicit as a person. So please don't put words in my mouth.




No, this sentence is a "Im not, but I am" sentence...In conversational logic theory it passes as a contradiction and resolves by omitting the first statement.

Secondly, In Colony GBR and Moatoob GBR I had 50% boost and I actually got more drops that came to me after both GBRs....But you do not see me making a declaration that non-GBR parties are better than GBR parties or vice versa...I am one of those players who leads a small group and we ran 200 - 300% parties...and in boss battles saw no real difference.



So all it takes is someone from Sega to say anything to you and you will believe it right? I don't think Edwards is a programmer and knows the topology of game programming. I don't think the Japanese are going to come to the United States with a translator so someone can speak to Edwards and confirm it...and give him the source code that proves that to be true...

...so given my observations, my experiences in this game...along with my experience modding and patching games..as well as how I like to be logical about things...

I don't believe Edwards one bit...Not because he is good or bad...but because he said a line without offering any evidence when asked for it outside of "someone told me."

So would you believe me if I told you that God Spoke through my cat and then later materialized to give people in the neighborhood a holy cleansing and then we all went to heaven and drank a cup of coffee and was teleported back to the earth just in time for xmas?

Of course you wouldn't! But you are so quick to believe a person who has a title in sega to moderate the game we play on the basis of "A little birdie told me" ^^

Oh yeah..I almost forgot ^^



Congratulations!!! ^^ Your Neu Walna example made it into my list of EPIC FAIL arguments in Online Gaming. This one Ranks #7 above "Dye Color helps me fight better" argument in Guild Wars and Below "Why Combat Arms Pwns Modern Warfare"

Try a little bit harder next time...you may reach the top 3 ^_^

So you are saying, because you have programmed games and you didn't see differences that you can assume the math of how the drops work? It's hilarious how you completely misunderstood my comment about neu walna, which drops in 2 different boxes at Forest Infiltration, I'm not sure where you got your numbers but they are wrong. And I have known you for awhile and I am completely aware of how little you and Shou play. The comment at the end is a pathetic attempt to flame me when you didn't even argue it right.

[Shou]

I think I played more than a few hours a day let alone a week. Bob plays a shitload and I think he believes that the boss boxes are unaffected by GBR%.

[Delete]

Honestly if you believe they don't effect boss drops, then just go play the game. Neither you nor Shou played the game very much while I was there so I'm inclined to believe you played just a couple hours a week. Which is hardly enough time to tell whether or not they effect it. Like I said anyone who's played the GBRs a lot and the missions without GBR would tell you they saw a difference, it's just the morons who rarely play and log on once a blue moon who believe something else. Now obviously Edward could have lied to us all but what makes you believe something else? a bunch or moronic assumptions. My evidence for my opinion is the fact EVERYONE who plays the game a lot knows it does effect it. It's hilarious how Shou brings up the first Neudaiz GBR which only had one mission with significant boss drops and says that's why he believes something. Oh and not to mention that was over a year ago, which only proves when I say none of you played the game enough.

You do realize you can Multi-Quote right?

Anyway, I don't think the boost effects the boss boxes either. If you want to know why so many people might be getting the super rare boss items during the GBR's, well...isn't it obvious? Everyone is doing the mission, so of course it's gonna seem like the shops are flooding with them. And you can't pull the "only played a few hours a week" card because there were GBR's that I played non-stop in the past and got nothing from the bosses. Now for the walna and stuff, I have realized that they tend to drop more the higher your % is. So take that how you will.


On topic (what's left of it anyway lol) , because some items are simply worth over a stack. I know it sucks because Trading sucks. I personally don't trade with anyone. There's like 7 people who I'd probably trust enough to actually trade with if I had to.

[bloodflowers]

(some stuff about drop rates)

GBR didn't help much in Neu Ork drops either ^_^

The way I see it, there are two possibilities here.

1) You don't play PSU very much, or you're very new.

2) You are incomprehensibly stupid.

The latter is looking painfully likely.

[Smidge204]

I think the problem is people are just bad at math.

If an item has a 0.1% chance of dropping, then a 300% boost in drop rate should push it up to 0.3% - not 300.1%

Three times more likely than "extremely unlikely" is still unlikely.
=Smidge=

[DragonStriker]

You do realize you can Multi-Quote right?

Anyway, I don't think the boost effects the boss boxes either. If you want to know why so many people might be getting the super rare boss items during the GBR's, well...isn't it obvious? Everyone is doing the mission, so of course it's gonna seem like the shops are flooding with them. And you can't pull the "only played a few hours a week" card because there were GBR's that I played non-stop in the past and got nothing from the bosses. Now for the walna and stuff, I have realized that they tend to drop more the higher your % is. So take that how you will.


On topic (what's left of it anyway lol) , because some items are simply worth over a stack. I know it sucks because Trading sucks. I personally don't trade with anyone. There's like 7 people who I'd probably trust enough to actually trade with if I had to.

Ofcourse I do, I didn't think about the next post until after the original. I'm not sure why you care anyways. And in regards to Bob not believing either, during most GBRs that I have known him he's either played them in small parties or not played them very much. Besides perhaps Parum GBR when the drop rates were absurdly bad on Armas lines. And yes Shou when I ran with you, you rarely played and would log on for a few hours a day. And yes Bloodflowers is completely right because it's very obvious to people who play the GBRs a lot.

[Shou]

I think the problem is people are just bad at math.

If an item has a 0.1% chance of dropping, then a 300% boost in drop rate should push it up to 0.3% - not 300.1%

Three times more likely than "extremely unlikely" is still unlikely.
=Smidge=
Right. But that is still 3x the first droprate meaning that the frequency of a good boss drop durring a GBR should be 3 times the the rate of a normal run with a full party of 50%ers.

Also Bob does run those GBRs a ton... Each one of those TA videos alone take hundreds and hundreds of runs. Same with Rau.

[DragonStriker]

Right. But that is still 3x the first droprate meaning that the frequency of a good boss drop durring a GBR should be 3 times the the rate of a normal run with a full party of 50%ers.

Also Bob does run those GBRs a ton... Each one of those TA videos alone take hundreds and hundreds of runs. Same with Rau.

What does Rau have to do with anything I said? lol And remember when he TAs he is solo meaning his boost can only be a max of 50% which is nothing compared to 300%. When I talked to him during Colony GBR he refused to run it and was running Seed Express, I assume eventually after capping he did some runs but obviously during Colony GBR where there were few boss box drops it would very unoticeable. Which is exactly the same with the original Neudaiz GBR which you keep referring to. I would love to know how many times you see a Yiel drop without the GBR or even a Hizeri mind, because I saw a few of those drop during the GBR and none since. It's definately 3x the chance but when the chance is .1% I'm pretty sure you won't see a .3% drop every single run. And I know you, and we both know you don't run nearly as much anymore. If you want to base your entire assumption that boss boxes are not effected by the fact "SEGA is lazy" or "Edward is never right" be my guess but the people who really play a ton during GBRs and outside of them will tell you otherwise. I just don't understand how you can just assume something that someone confirms doesn't exist when you don't play the game aton or you just have poor luck. Edward is a moron when it comes to game knowledge, yes but what have you ever seen to think otherwise on this matter? You keep bringing up the original Neudaiz GBR and only one of those missions even had significant boss boxes/end boxes. I just don't understand how you make this assumption when almost everyone who plays the GBRs aton disagrees with you. Now in regards to the point that math person made about how not everyone is running around with Granahodoras and Adahna Cannons, I personally saw 13 Adahna Units drop along with a few Granas and I only played about half the GBR. I also talked with a lot of players and they said they saw quite a few during the GBR. Now I have ran about 200 Forest Infiltration runs since the GBR ended (Time Attacking the mission) and i have yet to see an Adahna unit drop. Also the other boss boxes are significantly worse, you see things like containers and neu ebon and all other kinds of junk. Which you rarely saw during the GBR with high % parties. I think even Bobby would agree that the drops are extremely ugly at Forest Infiltration when you run it currently. And I was able to farm about 7 stacks of neu walna (Not all from the boss) just doing Adahna runs with 300% parties. Now my suggestion to end this "debate" is believe what you will and I will do the same but you really should put this to a test and play a lot because I can garantee you will see a difference. Now I have no idea how the programming is done, but I love GBRs and I run them a lot when they are here and I have consistently seen better drops during them and it's effect on the market. Now I'm not saying I'm the only one who understands the Ps2/PC market but I consider myself one of it's experts and I think most people would agree with me there.

[Smidge204]

You seem to be assuming aspects of the drop determining mechanics that are not safe to assume, and you also seem to fail basic probability and statistics.

True or false, Shou: If the odds of something happening are 1 in 1000, that means it will happen once every 1000 tries.
=Smidge=

[Keilyn]

What does Rau have to do with anything I said? lol And remember when he TAs he is solo meaning his boost can only be a max of 50% which is nothing compared to 300%.

400/150 = 2.66, 1/6 = 16.66
150/400 =.375 1/1 = 100%

This suggests it is better to hunt them alone if you are a TAer than in a group as everything will go to you and can get a stack faster than in a group. Even with the combined boost you still have a 16.66% chance of one by random counter going to you.


Now I'm not saying I'm the only one who understands the Ps2/PC market but I consider myself one of it's experts and I think most people would agree with me there.

Logic Interpretation:
Initial probability range of being true: 12.5% - 25%
Existence of qualitative potentials: True
Existence of quantitative potentials: True
Wrapping: Yes
Existential Translation: Yes
Base Translation: No

Existence of potentials prevents the completion of logic verification. The Statement under such rules returns as False in Analysis, Null in verification.

Logic Conclusion:

This statement shows the author to be insecure and impractical, turning a logical statement with solid ground into one which returns a null value. Such presence suggests a lack of conviction and will in addressing such form.

In regards to the post:

Statements are made expecting belief by word of mouth. There is also no hard evidence presented. Such belief is a sign of arrogance, ignorance and weakness on the part of the poster. The Intelligent individual who believes strongly in such data documents and presents such data in a logical manner.

Unfortunately no criteria are met for verification or presentation. Just words without any supporting evidence.

[Shou]

You seem to be assuming aspects of the drop determining mechanics that are not safe to assume, and you also seem to fail basic probability and statistics.

True or false, Shou: If the odds of something happening are 1 in 1000, that means it will happen once every 1000 tries.
=Smidge=
False. You could do ten thousand runs and still not get anything with those odds and you could also get something every single run.

I was never trying to convince anyone what I think about the GBR%. I was just trying to show why I believe how the GBR% works.

You know someone should really make a topic about the broken random number generator PSU has.
1) Grinding withought a boost should almost never create a 10/10 item. Yet people do it all the time with just a handful of tires.

2) Failing 2 99% synths in a row should NEVER happen in the lifetime of PSU but it has.

[Delete]

Ofcourse I do, I didn't think about the next post until after the original. I'm not sure why you care anyways. And in regards to Bob not believing either, during most GBRs that I have known him he's either played them in small parties or not played them very much. Besides perhaps Parum GBR when the drop rates were absurdly bad on Armas lines. And yes Shou when I ran with you, you rarely played and would log on for a few hours a day. And yes Bloodflowers is completely right because it's very obvious to people who play the GBRs a lot.

Wasn't actually talking about that post, I meant a few posts back but whatev's. I do not care, but if your gonna quote the same thing twice just to have a different sentence, then that makes no sense, your at 400 posts... so I'd assume you know how to do things here.


Also, I do not know a Bob so ummmmm....good luck with that.

[Smidge204]

False.

Correct!



1) Grinding withought a boost should almost never create a 10/10 item. Yet people do it all the time with just a handful of tires.

2) Failing 2 99% synths in a row should NEVER happen in the lifetime of PSU but it has.


Both wrong for exactly the same reason you were correct before.

=Smidge=

[Delete]

What I really wanna know is how the hell did this topic go from "99,999,999 meseta" to the "GBR Boost drop rate?"

[Smidge204]

What I really wanna know is how the hell did this topic go from "99,999,999 meseta" to the "GBR Boost drop rate?"



Kind of like the morons who think luck and GBR boost don't effect boss boxes. Expecially the ones who don't even run GBRs long enough to tell a difference.

Mystery solved.
=Smidge=

[Shou]

1) Without a grind boost there is only about a 2% chance for it to make it to 10/10 using all s+10s. Time after time people get a 10/10 with only a few tries and many do not use all s+10s

2) The probability of failing 2 99% synths in a row is 1 in 10,000. What that player just happened to land on that 1 in 10,000 chance and just happened to be synthing 2 items that have a 99% synth rate as well?

The RNG in PSU is totally broken.

On topic: we need goldbars. :)

[Keilyn]

True or false, Shou: If the odds of something happening are 1 in 1000, that means it will happen once every 1000 tries.

This is false, below is the math work. (However you did give me the # of draws and enough to make a box model, so thanks are in order)

Our box model is 999 zeros (meaning 999 misses) and 1 One (1 hit)

Information:

#of Draws = 1000
Expected value: 1 (Average of the box (1/1000) multiplied by the number of draws (1000))
Standard Deviation would then be the square root of (999/1000 * 1/1000) which would be .0316
Standard Error is (Square root of the number of draws (1000) multiplied by the standard deviation (.0316) which is (31.6227 x .0316) = .9992

Given 1000 draws your chances are 1+/- .9992 and this covers only a 68% ground as .9992 is just one Standard Unit in the normal curve. Two standard units is 95%, three standard units is 99% so the answers given a trial of 1000 drops would be:

68% Chance = 1+/- .9992 (SU 1)
28% Chance = 1+/- 1.9984 (SU 2)
4% Chance = 1+/- 2.9976 (SU 3)

It means in cases where three to nearly four drops fell under such odds...there would be a 4% chance of that happening under 1000 trials (SU 3), which is highly unlikely. SU 1 is the most likely situation to occur per trial of 1000 draws.

Note: One Draw equals one drop, in short this calculation assumes the drop rate is 100%. GBR affects the frequency of a drop appearing on slain monsters. The 1+/-.9992 can be translated into a percentage which would then be multiplied by the actual drop rate outside of GBR as a percentage to give you the answer under a percentage...

[Anon_Fire]

That's 99 million correct?

How do I see ppl wanting to sell stuff for hundreds of millions if you can only hold 99?

I must be missing something.

HELLO!!!! You guys must have misread what the OP said!

He wasn't talking about "GBR" "Grinding" or "Item Drops"

[Ruru]

Don't think they care about the OP anymore >.>;

This topic's been derailed for quite some time.

[Shou]

It was just a question and it has been answered.

Why not derail? :)

[Arika]

Fun fun fun~, *post to Subscribe the thread*

[Cloudstrife xx]

Right. But that is still 3x the first droprate meaning that the frequency of a good boss drop durring a GBR should be 3 times the the rate of a normal run with a full party of 50%ers.

Also Bob does run those GBRs a ton... Each one of those TA videos alone take hundreds and hundreds of runs. Same with Rau.
Bob and rau both abandon at a bad ta run tho, they have both admitted to abandoning at the boss why oh why?
So im willing to bet they both have less points on half of the last few gbrs than most of my group on xbox 360.

[Shou]

Bob and rau both abandon at a bad ta run tho, they have both admitted to abandoning at the boss why oh why?
So im willing to bet they both have less points on half of the last few gbrs than most of my group on xbox 360.
Of course they get 50% before doing all those TA runs. ;)

[Keilyn]

If the drop rate is 100%, such as a boss box drop...meaning something will always drop whether you want to or not..increasing the drop rate equally on all possible drops results in a change of 0. (This is mathematically proven since the combined drop rate can not exceed 100% nor can the combined rate of appearance on a group of drops exceed 100%)

Rather than go through another reiteration, I spent some time programming earlier how to split a frequency rate....and here is what I came up with.

Given: 100% Drop on a boss box
Question: How do you control the frequency of drops given a 100% drop rate on a boss box?

What I came up with was as follows:

Two lists are generated...One list is a drop of hits (good drop list), another list is a drop of misses (bad drop list).

A drop rate percentage would exist in order to get a drop from the good list. A GBR percentage would make a drop from the good list more likely in this scenario, this would in turn increase the frequency of a drop from the good list and decrease the rate of a drop from the bad list appearing. Of course if the random number generator rolls above the percentage listed (example...you have a 70% chance at a drop from a good list....but 71 is generated). a drop still falls...but from the bad list of drops.

It is easier to randomly generate a drop from a good list, because there are far less good drops possible than bad drops (on the bad list), so the frequency of recurrence is a lot higher due to less amount of good drops existing.

As to whether GBR itself affect the actual frequency of each individual drop appearing, I would not know this...I do know if you increased the rate equally for all drops, as a ratio the rate is the same due to one not being able to go beyond 100%.

Might explain a lot of things.

I am not saying this applies to PSU...Its a theory I was thinking of in game programming and probability at how it may work...and there are ways of testing to see if its true or false..Just didn't want to post the same crap over and over again and instead throw an idea out there.

[Smidge204]

My hypothesis is that the "Drop / No Drop" event is separate from the event that selects what drops. I base this off the fact that some items - boss boxes and regular items - ALWAYS drop something while others NEVER drop anything.

In other words, I expect the code looks something like this:



if (rnd < drop_chance)
{
// Decide what to drop
drop_item(rnd);
}
else
{
// nothing drops
}

The drop boost may affect drop_chance or drop_item or both.

More data here (http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2416526) :E
=Smidge=

[Keilyn]

I thought about that too...until I was faced with the problem of how I would use GBR itself as a variable to increase the quality of drops..

Im the kind of person when someone like Edwards says "GBR affects the quality of drops" I say that if I don''t believe Edwards (or anyone for that matter)...then what conditions could exist or might have to exist in order for that to be true?

Its sort of like the show Mythbusters...When they prove a myth to be false...they try to experiment on what it would take to make it true. ^_^

[Smidge204]

Well there are two things to test here; GBR boost rate effect on 'quantity' and 'quality.' For objectivity sake let's define 'quality' with rarity-star rating. More stars = higher quality.

I would design the experiment thus:

Identify items in the GBR missions that drop consistently (like the trees in Innocent Girl, or boss/clear boxes) as well as things that are sometimes empty. Enemies are NOT a good choice because then you have to control for the type of enemy as well.

I've only been playing for just over a year so I'm not sure if the GBR missions are always the same. If they are, then we can start collecting 'unboosted' data now. If they are unpredictable, then I suggest waiting until next GBR and collect data during and after. The best way to do it is to agree on what objects to record data for, span that one mission at least 20 times collecting data, run the rest of the GBR circuit to boost the drop rate a notch and repeat. This will give data sets for each GBR increment (though practically we probably don't need EVERY increment...)

For each run, note what (if anything) drops from a particular object. Also note luck for that day, since it clearly has an effect at least on 'quality.' Data will have to be segregated based on luck and sorted based on GBR drop rate for that data set.

Luck will be difficult to control for. :/
=Smidge=

[Keilyn]

Enemies are not a good choice because we know that GBR affects individual monsters...The question has always focused on the Box drops and boss drops. ^_^

I thought about Data Isolation as well...so its nice we are thinking similar things. Ive been running Scarred Planet and Lightning Beasts...Trying to do ZH and TA on both maps. ^^

[D1ABOLIK]

Some weapons are worth more than you can hold.

Absolutely nothing in this game is worth more than a stack. The fact things actually sell for more than a stack just shows how messed up our economy really is, and how greedy the players really are.

[Keilyn]

Hmmm...

I consider some items to be worth over a stack of meseta. Unfortunately you wheel them, you deal them.....

I am not going to conform to a stack for every item...just so that someone else turns around...calls me an idiot and sells it for 2 - 4 stacks...

Unfortunately, PSU is what happens not in a Capitalist environment but in a Neo-Socialist Commune....Where you may have a free market society, but no real regulation so you have no help or defense. In the capitalist system in the US on every prime commidity for living, its pricing and value is regulated....which is a major difference.

As long as no regulation exists, the current trend continues and it seems the only way to cause regulation is to buy up everything of one item and control its selling, which in the real world that is also illegal...and creates cartels.

Of course the PS2/PC has such a low population that 90% of the time you will have to hunt for things...It feels more like you pay to play singleplayer online more than anything else.

Of course if you don't like it...you can pack your bags and play PSU Japan where the economy is better or play PSPo II...where some say its what PSU should have been from the start.

[Arika]

Absolutely nothing in this game is worth more than a stack. The fact things actually sell for more than a stack just shows how messed up our economy really is, and how greedy the players really are.

because there are many people would offer 200 mil for a single item. So, why should the seller limit the price at only 99 mil? they already offer that much after all!

[Rainz4dayz]

Wow who could get 99million meseta..Money is hard to get for me(:

[Smidge204]

There's several threads about getting meseta. Most people who have buckets of cash have at least one shop open where they sell the booty they get during missions to other players.

For example, if you happen to get a Carriguine Blade, Agito Edge, or Bill De Vear Horn (all biomaterials) any of those are probably worth about 2.5 to 3 mil in the PS2/PC servers. Each. Some items make up for volume what that lack in value, so even common stuff can get a good price 'cause they're in demand... like elemental photons.
=Smidge=

[Rainz4dayz]

oOo Cool too bad i can't get online:/

[stinkyfish97]

I think it works like this:

Fist you have a probability, then you have luck.

Fist probability:
What this means is a random number is generated by the system. Lets say the probability is said to be 1-1000 for a given item. The system picks 655 to be the number for that item to apear. What that means is if you open box 655 for example that will be that given item. It works for creatures as well think of them as walking boxes. lol. Lets say agito repca board has a probabiltiy of 1-10000000 and the system picks 35, thats not 1-10000000 though, its not based on it dropping on the millinth time its based on statistics and statistics show it will drop overall 1-10000000 not that it drops at the millionth milestone, so it can drop from the 35th creature killed in the series or the 740000 creature killed it doesnt matter. This works for everything. Even a no drop counts towards the total pool.

Total Pool?

Yes it is a total pool. That means it is not just based on what you kill but what the entire server kills or how many missions the entire server of people complete. For example again lets look at boss boxes this time, say a given item in a boss box has a 1-1000 drop, lets say that is the drop rate of the killer elite, its not, and you have 45 parties completing 1000 missions an hour, now I forget how many boss boxes there are but lets say its like 22, that means somewhere in there out of 22,000 boxes the statitical probability is that 2200 killer elites will drop. That doesnt mean they drop every 1000 boxes open. Again it is a probability so it can be random, it might drop at the 1st box opened. Its based on how many are opened within the entire community.

What is luck good for then?

Luck simply reduces the probabilities. Simply stated if the drop rate of an item is 1-1000 it is reduced, by how much I dont know but its not just reduced for you. It is reduced for everyone because your luck is affecting the probability an item dropping, so I believe it is the combined luck of everyone. Agito Repca's drop is very very very low, like 1-100000000, so your luck may reduce that by .1% not 1% by a slim margin, but that has a constant effect over time that means everyone is working towards the same goal, reducing the probability. So your luck reduces it by .1% and you have 1000 people with the same probability, lets all say we have 3* and it reduces the probability by .1%, what this in effect is doing is reducing the probability that an agito repca board will drop by .1% * 1000 people with three star * that 100000000 and that will be the new probability. It doesnt gaurantee that an item will go to you it reduces the probability making that item apear more and that in turn increases your chances of getting lucky because more of that item are dropping per creature killed.

As far as we know luck does not effect Boss Boxes, the only reason it apears that more items are dropping during these events and such is because we all spam 1 mission therefore more boxes are being opened per hour and more of that item will be seen per hour.

Probabilities you should know:
There are area drops these are based on how many creatures overall are killed, so they have low proabibility 1-100000 but they can have high drop rate because its based on how many creatures are in the mission not on a certain creature, so that means you kill 100 creatures in the mission and the average is people are running 1000 mission an hour thats 100000 creatures killed an hour, the probabilty suggest we should see 1 of those items every hour. Again the item doesnt drop every 100000 creature killed it is random, the probibility just has to add up to being 1-100000, meaning it might drop at 3 one time and 120000 another and 12000 the next.

Another proabilty is creature drops a certain item. We all know these, Seed Vitace on Dark Satilite S3 drops Gur Hanib, drop rate might be 1-1000

Another proability is Boss boxes. These nobody can be certain if they are based on luck, Ive heard arguments for both they are and they arent.

Those are pretty much your probabilities. Its all based on a system and therefore there are ways to exploit a system. For instance the Machine Gun glitch was bad because it exploited these probabilities by allowing everyone to kill things faster for one, and allowing individuals to kill things faster. Basically the more things you kill the better chance you have at getting a really decent rare, luck helps everyone on the server out not just you. The more things you kill or how fast you run a mission doesnt gaurantee you a rare, some guy that takes an hour to kill 1 monter might just hit that lucky number in the series, like I said drop is at 54 and the probility is 1-1000, but you give yourself the best chance by killing more creatures. Like if I kill 999 and he kills 1 I have a much much higher probability of getting that rare, unfortuantly or fortunatly for some, it is very difficult to expoit this because when you add it all up your probility is never going to be as great as the number of people running the mission, your never going to kill more enemies per probabilty than the entire server, you might kill 10% or open 10% of the boss boxes giving you a better chance. So if you want a really good rare, and wish to try and expoit this in some way I suggest 1) picking times nobody is on but this doesnt help much because its still based on numbers so you still have to kill 1000s of enemies and open 1000s of boxes but your probability goes up because instead of 10-15 people all trying to get that rare its you or you and one other person and you can increase your chances by just running over and over and how quickly you do it. Start a clan and have that clan all go to one spot and spam the hell out of the area, this is probably the best way of increasing someones chances of getting something, and who knows maybe they will share the wealth or what me and my friends did is we spammed missions to get one guy something and just took turns until everyone was satisfied. Unfortuantly you cant keep everyone satisfied for ever and most people will abandon you leaving you o solo or join randoms. :-(

[Cracka_J]

Wow, you guys are still getting trolled by sega.

Awesome thread, btw.