Tech spammer w/o fluids

[Opodomus]

Is it possible? I have a challenge for someone with the resources to check (I'm not even on SH yet so I can't test it):

lvl 100 FOnewearl + 80 PP mats = 812 PP
1% regen = 8 PP/5 sec
PP regen lvl 5 slot = 5 PP/5 sec
Total = 13 PP/ 5 sec

Add in Tech save then 2 Divine/Minds and a 100 mind Mag to increase damage.

Now obviously you can spam techs faster than you can regen, but with the pause time between waves, between rooms, etc, can you consistently stay high enough that you never or almost never need fluids?

[TUSCAN]

I'm basically doing this right now. I'm not LVL100 yet, only 86, but I think this might be the best build. I'm a FOnewm though.

[ARChan]

There's gotta be a Tech Save lv 3 in the mix. All others won't cut it.

And SH can be a bit of a problem for Tech spamming. I usually end up using too much when the room is cleared. Or maybe it's because I had a considerably low-leveled FOnewm ^^;

[mid Knight]

My only tatics (just my opinion and I don't consider myself to be a pro when it come to this) for dealing being a Force in the Tower are-
Max out the Mono and Di fluids before enter the tower and also equip the pp regen (my highest is only 3) and conserving it as mush as you can. I wouldn't max out trifluid before entering the tower as I used them for last resort when the other two ran out or you about max it out. Trifuild are important since it can replenish all your PP and if you don't have many at all, start saving it and store it in your trunk so you can withdraw some when you come back every tenth floors.
When you start spamming the tech, make sure you use the right effective Tech for the right hostile (e.g. Zoide against Krose) and be careful when you against different hostile with different weakness (when you encounter all 3 Finjer).
When you ran out of PP use Mono and Di Fluids however if using both of them max out your PP then only use one of them (you be wasting your fuilds if you max out the pp).
I only only suggest spamming when you up again toughter hostile like Helion, semi spam for average hostile like Kapantha and using your weapons against weaker hostile like Uscanny (unless you got plenty of fuilds). Also if your still got max fuilds and the chest open out a fuilds just enter the next room to tech spam and come back for it afterward.
Don't view waiting for the PP to regen as a bad thing, view this as a break to go to the toilet or check your email etc since after all if you purely focus on the tower, you won't be using your pc.
If you somehow did used up every fuilds you got (maybe you encounter tougher hostiles in every room) then treat it as a last man standing seeing how long you can last, after all if you died you only teleport back to the city and can still re enter the tower from the last floor you were on.

[Krank32oz]

Only the forces with pp regeneration do this im assuming?

[Opodomus]

TUSCAN, how is it working out so far? Are you able to clear a full stage without using any fluids at 86?

ARChan, I did mention tech save... I left out the "lvl 3" part but it was of course implied :)

[Cruciarius]

I'm at lvl 88 right now, with my FOnewearl. I already had her max out her materials with mind, but after clearing an entire room, I might have to use 2-3 monofluids, if I want to go at a fast pace, clearing the area.

Would like to know how well your described build does though. If they have little to no downtime, with no fluids, I might redo my materials.

Though I think I would also want to know the kind of damage difference between maxed mind materials and this build, before doing so.

[TUSCAN]

I can clear out an entire floor without using fluids. I didn't use my first fluid until three floors in. Still hitting for monster damage. To heck with mind mats.....

[Cruciarius]

TUSCAN: What units are you using?

[Opodomus]

Here's an important question... at which point do you gain the full PP tick? For instance, you have 100 PP, you get 1 PP/tick. You get 101 PP, does the game round up to 2 PP/tick? At 150? Or not until 200? This could cause some change in the optimal setup!

I wonder how this build would work with a HUnewearl... you could use a rod/wand/slicer with Heart and wade into combat to help with the PP regen...

[TUSCAN]

I'm using a white disaster, spirit garb, pp recovery lvl 4, tech save lvl 3, compress pa and mind unit. I'll prolly dump the mind unit for a pp unit and maybe even the compress unit for the same, but only if I need them to get an extra pp point per tick (over 800 PP).

I'm early in the tower. I'm sure the later levels won't be so nice to my pp, but there is no damage issue at all. Ra-megid, ra-foie, ra-foie=everything dead. Big guys take another couple foies. I'm not using shifta either (well, Kai is, a bit).

This build will prolly be nice online because you won't have to waste as much PP killing everything.


EDIT: I think you get the extra tick every even 100, so I'd only use a PP unit if I needed to get over the hump.

[Cruciarius]

We need to find out the ideal PP mat usage for the build. I don't want to dump 80 mats into it, if I could have been better off with a mix of PP and mind mats.

[TUSCAN]

We need to find out the ideal PP mat usage for the build. I don't want to dump 80 mats into it, if I could have been better off with a mix of PP and mind mats.

Well FOnewm finishes with 618 PP at 100, so he'll need 80 plus a divine/PP to get over 800 and maximize the build. FOnewearl finishes at 652, so she only needs 75 mats and no unit to max out.

[rhubarbot]

Let's assume it takes an average of 120 seconds (being generous here; it's usually much less) to clear a room and move on in a non-ET map.

During that time, you'll regen a grand total of 156 PP with your 80 PP material build and PP Recovery 5. With a 80 mind material build, you regen a total of 144. That's not nearly enough of a difference to justify losing out on the 104 extra MST (with shifta) you'd be missing out on. In fact, if your extra 104 MST means you have to cast just one spell fewer than you otherwise would in order to finish off a wave, you're already ahead.

Personally, I don't even bother with PP Recovery 5 at all. The way I see it, if you can make it to the boss and kill it before you run out of mono+difluids without using PP Recovery and/or Tech Save, then you're better off swapping one or both of those units out with Divine/Minds. Extra damage WILL help you finish the level faster, and extra PP won't — UNLESS it's a choice between needing to take a telepipe to town to buy more fluids or not. If you do have to do that, then the time it takes to go to town and buy fluids is going to more than offset the slightly faster clearing speed from Divine/Minds.

Before I stopped playing my high-level Force, I found that Tech Save 3 by itself was enough to reach that level of not having to ever port back to town to get more fluids. And I never got a good Alice Olivia, so that meant I did have to rely on tech spamming. I have a PP Recovery 5 but it just sits in my Joint Trunk now for whenever I decide to make a new character. (PP Recovery 5 is insanely good at low levels.)

[Opodomus]

A little math will get the optimal PP mat usage...

First of all, there is a tradeoff. Mind mats go towards shifta but mind slot units do not. PP mats grant 2 PP per, Divine/PP grants only 25 PP.

I'll take back my original choice of FOnewearl and say let's go with FOnewm instead since he gets an overall boost to all offensive techs that applies both to mind mats and mind units. That gives us 618 PP at level 100. We could break 800 with all PP mats AND armor units, but that is probably overkill. Let's just go for 701 (assuming TUSCAN is right and that extra 1 gets us more regen).

Since PP mats give an even number, we can use one Divine/PP to turn our 618 into an odd number: 643. Now we need 58 which is 29 PP mats. That gives us 51 Mind mats still. That gives you 8 PP/5 sec and you can add 5 more with the slot unit.

[TUSCAN]

To be honest, I can't really notice the difference in damage. This build is so much more comfortable than the raw power build that I couldn't care less about saving twenty seconds a run. Hitting for 305 instead of 330 isn't hurting my feelings, not having to put a fluid on my pallet at all is nice, and I barely have to access my item menu any more.

I should go make a max HP HUcast.

[Cruciarius]

Well FOnewm finishes with 618 PP at 100, so he'll need 80 plus a divine/PP to get over 800 and maximize the build. FOnewearl finishes at 652, so she only needs 75 mats and no unit to max out.

So to hit 800, FOnewearl needs 148 more PP? Which would be best to obtain that? PP units or PP materials?

You said 75 materials. I'm assuming that is PP materials, which leaves 5 materials for mind, I assume... or guard, if the user chooses.

[rhubarbot]

Divine/PP only gives +25 PP per unit, so you'd really need to use materials for this build. You'd only really have space for one Divine/* unit anyway, between PP Recovery 5, Compress PA and Tech Save 3.

[Cruciarius]

I think I've got all the units mentioned, other than the compress PA... haven't found myself the cake shop, yet.

So 75 PP materials, 5 mind materials and those units... think I'll try it.

[zeital]

interesting idea, so basicly its for (say my FOnewearl ) is set up as
lv 100
75 PP units
5 of eather mind or guard
compress PA
texh save lv 3
PP regen lvl 5
lv 100 mind mag
(have i got that right? just trying to make sense of everything said so far ^^ )

but what would be a good armor?
and being hopeful here the Psycho Wand (which seems to be the best out there) would mean minimal fluid use but if u get hit well then ur stuffed right?

[FoMarlBorough]

my fomarl had little problem stretching fluids 10 floors. but i did need to run back to town after the mothers. have a pp regen 3 . didnt use the tech save.

people use pp mats? i thought they were kinda useless. huh.

[Cruciarius]

My FOnewearl had fluids left over, every 10 floors in the hard tower. Usually only using monofluids and a few difluids, with a full stack of trifluids un-touched. Though I know SH is... well, harder, I don't see myself using all the fluids within the 10 floors of SH.

That said, I still plan to try the no fluid build. Found I didn't have the tech save lvl 5, yet. Only have a lvl 3, so I'll wait to change my build, until I get the lvl 5.

[Shadeerror]

As a lvl 100 FOnewm I recently switched from White Disaster to MSign spam with a Celeb4 Alice Olivia and my PP Consumption went down almost 90% while also decreasing tower time by 1/3. By switching from tech spamming to MSign spamming after the initial GiMegid PP use is minimal while still having very high damage output. The first 70 levels I can clear ten floors with 3-4 monofluids without stopping. As for gear:

80 Mind Mats
100 MST Mag
Noble Cloak +40
Element Boost
Compress PA
Tech Save 3
PP Recovery Lv 5

Just get yourself a good ALice Olivia and spam MSign and you will have no problems with PP. After lvl 70, however you will want to switch up between casting and MSign as Froutangs and Helions can 1shot you. And assuming you are a male FO Noble Cloak is your best armor, with a fully grinded Pizza Box being second best. Female FOs best in slot armor is Rika's Suit with Pizza Box coming in Second also.

And as another note, switch out from Alice Olivia to your main Rod when dealing with The Mothers. Also try to have at least a 3way Flozir with your party to make them a quick kill. I usually kill the mothers in under a minute with White Disaster and Zonde Spam. Hope this helps with PP consumption for some of you.

And as for your build. Make sure to incorporate in a Divine/PP unit for an aditional +25 PP. That may add another point to your overall PP regeneration.

[Silvaya]

hi shade. btw, u use Gimegid to gather the mobs, not RAGrants.

btw, find me a lv5 AO @ magical sign K? XD

[Shadeerror]

Whoops didn't realise I wrote RaGrants lol. My bad got them confused. And as for the AO, Xp. I have a Diopside Lv 4 Element MSign although I don't know if that will do much for ya.

[TUSCAN]

I dunno, for some reason I just can't spam PA's with my force. that's what I have a hunter for.

[Cruciarius]

I prefer techs with my force, though to be honest, I've not really used any PAs on my force.

[rhubarbot]

I've been trying out using PP Recovery 5 on my FOnie and, whereas it's not really necessary (for reasons I covered in a prior post in this thread), it does make my gameplay feel much smoother---less trips to the menu for fluids = more fun.

I still don't understand why one would want to use PP materials over mind materials though, just to get one extra point of PP regen. Sacrificing a Divine/Mind for PP Recovery 5 isn't much of a tradeoff for the benefit you get. But sacrificing 75-80 mind mats for PP mats is quite a big tradeoff for little benefit. To put it in perspective, it's rather like unequipping your mag so you can put a PP Recovery 1 in its place. (Well, perhaps not quite, since you're not really sacrificing other benefits from a mag..... but still, over 100 MST probably is not worth PP Recovery 1.)

Ah well, play the game however you want. It's supposed to be fun, after all. :D

[kirtblue]

my fonewearl is all mind mats pure mind mag and i can tell you its so easy to get messeta in this game who cares if you go though fluids its well worth it for the massive damage you deal

like stated before even in the tower you can go back to the city every ten floors

[TUSCAN]

Well, with over 1000 mst naturally I'm not missing the 80 from the mats.

The material system is there to allow players to cover their weaknesses more-so than to boost their powers.

Instead of fussing over 8% more power I'm enjoying 30% or so more PP. The power isn't helping me any while I'm running around waiting for my PP to charge or fussing with menus trying to pop a fluid.

[TUSCAN]

my fonewearl is all mind mats pure mind mag and i can tell you its so easy to get messeta in this game who cares if you go though fluids its well worth it for the massive damage you deal

like stated before even in the tower you can go back to the city every ten floors

Thanks, Tips.

[Cruciarius]

I'd rather not have to run back for fluids, every 10 floors though. Granted we go back anyway, to sell things, but if we can do away with needing fluids, that is a big plus for the build.

[kirtblue]

I'd rather not have to run back for fluids, every 10 floors though. Granted we go back anyway, to sell things, but if we can do away with needing fluids, that is a big plus for the build.

but at the same time i can guarantee that i can get though those floors faster than you beat the boss go to the city sell stuff re up my fluids and start with the next 10 floors before you make it to the boss so who care if you have to buy fluids after every boss if it means you dont have to take forever to do a tower run/game run

[TUSCAN]

but at the same time i can guarantee that i can get though those floors faster than you beat the boss go to the city sell stuff re up my fluids and start with the next 10 floors before you make it to the boss so who care if you have to buy fluids after every boss if it means you dont have to take forever to do a tower run/game run

You do realize we're talking about 20 or so damage points per hit, right? It's not like you hit for 300 and we're hitting for 200.

[Hero-Break]

You gain an extra TP point when running everytime your tp ends in 60. So even at 459 TP you still only gain 4 points per tick. However once you get to 460 you get the extra point. I've tested this myself through a Hunwearl.

[TUSCAN]

You gain an extra TP point when running everytime your tp ends in 60. So even at 459 TP you still only gain 4 points per tick. However once you get to 460 you get the extra point. I've tested this myself through a Hunwearl.

Thanks. That loosens things up a bit since 860 is pretty much unobtainable.

[Cruciarius]

I'm stilling hunting for a tech save lvl 5. x.x
I want to try the build. Tired of stocking up on all the fluids every run... granted I never touch the trifluids, but still. I don't want to die due to having to stop to access my items, just because I run out of what I put on my palette.

[Kirukia]

I want to try this too. I'm gonna make a FOnewearl once I get the items I need. Cruc I'll hunt it with you.
Also doesn't Tech Save only go up to 3? >___>

[Cruciarius]

Yeah... Tech Save lvl 3 is the highest. >.<

I meant to say PP Recovery lvl 5. Not sure why I keep saying the other.

[Kirukia]

Ah. I actually need Tech Save 3 anyway xD
I have PP Recovery 4 :x Thats good enough I guess for a test.
I'd also like to add that it's 2 TP a tick at 150, so the X60 PP thing isn't accurate.

[Grimhart]

If the extra PP per tick comes at X50, then perhaps the target max PP ought to be 750?

For a LV100 FOnewearl, from the base 652 to 750 would need only 49 PP Materials, then the remaining 31 materials and any spare armor slots can go to Mind in order to close up the little damage gap.

I would love to try it out, too. The comfort of not having to be as conscious about my PP usage more than makes up for the damage difference.

[Kirukia]

I'm not sure if it's at X50 or before that. I just know that right now I gave some PP mats to my new FOney and it's getting that much at 150.

[Grimhart]

Yeah, I just played around with it too. I got it to go from 3 per tick to 4 per tick at 359...or could be 358 since each material gives +2.

Research must be funded...

Edit: 358 PP still only had 3 per tick, so the turning point actually looks to be X59. I'll check some more eventually.

[kirtblue]

The thread IS about using all PP mats in place of all mind mats. On my lvl 87 FOnewm 80 mind mats gives me less than 8% more power when I have a powerful rod equipped. If I was hitting for 200 and you were hitting for 300 that would constitute over 30% more power using those 80 mind mats. So in reality, using 300 as our 80 mind mat benchmark, with 80 PP mats I am now hitting for 276. The term to use here is "marginal difference".

Now, I didn't insult you at all. I merely pointed out to you how a great majority of people are going to look at you due to your posting style. In fact, I even said I think you are smarter then you seem. It's not like you have exclusive license to not using punctuation on the internet, lot's of kids do it. It is always frustrating to read. Thousands of years of literature prove this. Believe me, it's not about insulting you, it's about people enjoying these message boards without getting a headache.

fair enough you what is your force character and whats you mag build because you should be doing alot more damage if your all mind mats pure mind mag and a nice rod

[TUSCAN]

fair enough you what is your force character and whats you mag build because you should be doing alot more damage if your all mind mats pure mind mag and a nice rod

Wow. Um, I think what you're asking is what my build is. The 300 damage number is imaginary. An example.

[Cruciarius]

Also, the damage amount will vary on tech used, hostile target and difficulty. If you want to compare damages of all PP mats vs all mind mats, pick a hostile and tech and give feed back on damage.

Also, in this situation, I think mags and wand/rod should be about equal as well.

[Hero-Break]

Ah. I actually need Tech Save 3 anyway xD
I have PP Recovery 4 :x Thats good enough I guess for a test.
I'd also like to add that it's 2 TP a tick at 150, so the X60 PP thing isn't accurate.

Hmm, intresting. It might be on some werid scale then. Is it right at 150 or just a little over?

[Kirukia]

Hmm, intresting. It might be on some werid scale then. Is it right at 150 or just a little over?

Well the weird thing is if you look up, it's not the same for other people. They might be different points, which makes things difficult. I suppose someone could level to 100 and then use mats, or use a reset to check everytime they use a mat. It would be tedious though xD

[zeital]

ook so i'm still lost, which is it that people are finding more practical? pure PP mats or pure MIND mats? i'm also confused about the tick values

[Kirukia]

ook so i'm still lost, which is it that people are finding more practical? pure PP mats or pure MIND mats? i'm also confused about the tick values

Neither. We are talking about using PP mats to get the maximum tick value (the amount your PP goes up as you regen) and then using mind mats for the rest. This thread is about making a force that doesn't need to use fluids.

[TUSCAN]

Neither. We are talking about using PP mats to get the maximum tick value (the amount your PP goes up as you regen) and then using mind mats for the rest. This thread is about making a force that doesn't need to use fluids.

Just for the record, I don't think it's possible to eliminate fluids 100%. There will still be the odd time that you want to use some, like later tower levels. This build greatly reduces the reliance on them.

[Zike]

I am a 100 Fonewm with 80mind mats and 100 mind mag wearing 1 divine mind a tech save level 3 pp recovery level 4 can't even remember my last slot, I can make it to floor seventy on just 10 monofluids/10difluids per 10 floors, for the last 30 floors when I run out of fluids I just death port to town(usualy once for each set 71-80 81-90 and 91-101), I spam techs the entire way only use my shuriken to open boxs and kill the box monsters,

[TUSCAN]

I am a 100 Fonewm with 80mind mats and 100 mind mag wearing 1 divine mind a tech save level 3 pp recovery level 4 can't even remember my last slot, I can make it to floor seventy on just 10 monofluids/10difluids per 10 floors, for the last 30 floors when I run out of fluids I just death port to town(usualy once for each set 71-80 81-90 and 91-101), I spam techs the entire way only use my shuriken to open boxs and kill the box monsters,

That's great, man! Congratulations!

[rhubarbot]

Ok, I am eating my words right now. I've done some new calculations and found that to get to +12 pp/5 seconds (while active) regen (7/sec from 700+PP, 5/sec from PP Recovery 5) involves sacrificing only 31 MST (about 6 damage per hit, not counting bonuses/penalties from spells, PAs, celeb, or resistance). The 24 PP materials you need to use to get 700+PP at level 100 reduce effective MST by about 31 once the bonus from level 15 Shifta is taken into account.

That, in my opinion, is a good enough tradeoff to warrant going for a 24 PP Mat/56 Mind Mat build on a FOnewearl (or the equivalent for a FOnewm).

Since it also takes 24 HP mats to get a HUcaseal to 900+ HP at level 100, I redid my HUcaseal's mat build accordingly and slapped a HP Recovery 5 on her. 14HP/5 seconds regen while active is actually pretty good, plus there's the benefits that come from more HP (dimates heal for more; you last longer; you can take more damage without flinching). I'm still level 95 with her but am already liking the super-regen build and am not missing the damage.

I still don't think I'd trade the rest of the MST/ATP needed to get that second extra point of regen, though. With Shifta bonus, it's about 72 effective MST/ATP, versus just 31 for the first point.

[Cruciarius]

rhubarbot, thank you for doing the math out for the FOnewearls. Hopefully I can find myself a PP recovery 5 soon, so I can switch my build to that. Though I wonder how well it'd do with just a PP recovery 3 (I think that's what I have right now). I know the PP regen wouldn't be as high, but I might try it anyway.

I have a HUcast, lvl 54 now, which I plan to re-do his mats to also take advantage of his HP regen. Also plan on making him high in defense (planning on replacing his 100 power mag with a guard/power mag), to hopefully block a lot of attacks.

[zeital]

On-Topic:
Has anybody figured out the best PP mat usage? I wanna finish my FOney's mats asap.

i agree, i would also like to know wat people would think is a good amount of PP mats to use to get a high lv PP regen (plus the PP recovery 5) is there any calulator for working this out or do we still just wing it? cuz i would (like to) get my Fo's mats sorted now so i don't have to worry about it later on so i can consentrate on getting the armor slots when i can ><

[TUSCAN]

On-Topic:
Has anybody figured out the best PP mat usage? I wanna finish my FOney's mats asap.

Is this what you're asking for?


Ok, I am eating my words right now. I've done some new calculations and found that to get to +12 pp/5 seconds (while active) regen (7/sec from 700+PP, 5/sec from PP Recovery 5) involves sacrificing only 31 MST (about 6 damage per hit, not counting bonuses/penalties from spells, PAs, celeb, or resistance). The 24 PP materials you need to use to get 700+PP at level 100 reduce effective MST by about 31 once the bonus from level 15 Shifta is taken into account.

That, in my opinion, is a good enough tradeoff to warrant going for a 24 PP Mat/56 Mind Mat build on a FOnewearl (or the equivalent for a FOnewm).

Since it also takes 24 HP mats to get a HUcaseal to 900+ HP at level 100, I redid my HUcaseal's mat build accordingly and slapped a HP Recovery 5 on her. 14HP/5 seconds regen while active is actually pretty good, plus there's the benefits that come from more HP (dimates heal for more; you last longer; you can take more damage without flinching). I'm still level 95 with her but am already liking the super-regen build and am not missing the damage.

I still don't think I'd trade the rest of the MST/ATP needed to get that second extra point of regen, though. With Shifta bonus, it's about 72 effective MST/ATP, versus just 31 for the first point.

Here's a little exercise we can do so everybody can understand how this all works. Let's say I have 1000 mind. My buddy also has 1000 mind. He puts 80 mind mats on and now has 1080 mind, an 8% increase. I decide to use 80 PP mats, going from 500 to 660, approximately a 30% increase. We enter a battle and confront an enemy. The enemy has 1000 HP. My friend, hitting for 300 per strike, will kill the enemy in 4 hits. 300x4=1200. Now since I have 8% less power then he does, I don't hit for as much. In fact, I hit for (300x.08=24) 24 less than he does, which is 276. So fighting my own 1000 HP enemy, I kill it in (276x4=1104)....... 4 hits.
Let's say an enemy has 3000 HP. mind boy hits 350, pp boy hits 300. 3000/350= 8.6. 3000/300=10. So now PP boy needs to hit 1.4 more times. Understanding the circumstances involved, such as NPC damage, burn damage, ect., I think it's safe to say the damage will occasionally fall to the favor of either party, resulting in faster or slower times for either party.

[zeital]

ah ok i must have missed that post so just to get the PP over 700 takes only 24 PP mats, thats better then i thought it would be

[TUSCAN]

It's kirt. Not kirk. Just because you use periods doesn't mean that you're awesome. You misspell words, abbreviate them, etcetera. All you use is periods from what I've seen. You learn how to write the english language first before you start bashing other people.

Also. PP builds are pointless. The damage difference is going to be quite a bit considering that Shifta also accounts for materials used. All you really need to do is stock up on fluids and you should be fine. If you're fighting in the Eternal Tower and are worried about using all of your fluids then equip a PP Recovery and wait...
Simple as that.

kirt then.

I am a sloppy speller, that's one thing that is certain, but that's far from sticking my middle finger up at socially accepted communication behavior.

As for your other paragraph, what's shifta do to 24 points of damage?

[ZetsumeiSan]

kirt then.

I am a sloppy speller, that's one thing that is certain, but that's far from sticking my middle finger up at socially accepted communication behavior.

As for your other paragraph, what's shifta do to 24 points of damage?


It depends on the creature. I can do about 40 more damage on Vulkures in Super Hard mode. Others will be about 20 or more damage. However, this adds up very quick. Thus is why it would be a waste to have a PP build. I'm all for using PP Recovery, but Divine PP and PP Materials are complete crap.

[ZetsumeiSan]

Also...that's just the difference for using Shifta with 80 Mind Materials. The damage gap will be greater if you compare 80 Mind Materials + Shifta to 80 PP Materials with Shifta. Then you've got to take into account the equipment build. A slicer FOnewearl doesn't have to worry about have all attack techniques on the palette. So in turn there will be room for Shifta. This may be different in the case of a rod/wand FOnewearl.

Anyway...my point is that PP builds are useless.

[Ryna]

I've cleaned up this topic.

Let's keep the discussion related to mat setups for a "no fluid" Force.

[leviayurashyguy]

i don't no what was said in the SEVEN pages prior to this post but a no fluid Force is impossible. even with 80 PP mats, newmen, recov 5, and tech save 3, you'll still run out of PP nuking DS, let alone you DPS would take a considerable drop

the only Force i can think that could prolly go with no fluids is a battle mage. just grab some daggers, shifta, and zalure and you're gonna be ey oh kay

[AFCOldman]

I can't be bothered to read 7 pages, and I'll probably say what has been said many times, but anyway....


I use a FOmarl, and I usually need to stock up 1 time, that's before a boss room, and in the eternal tower I need to go before the boss room aswell, usually I just kill myself and stock up.

Why do you even care to go without fluids? They're really cheap, I got more money than I'll ever spend, I wish I had this much money in real life. :P