Pledge Of Allegiance: Appeal

[amoralist]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/02/28/pledge.of.allegiance.ap/index.html

Hurray!

Secondly, I'm fine with the allegiance as long as it excludes "god."



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: amoralist on 2003-02-28 14:17 ]</font>

[Gartywood]

the ORIGINAL pledge said "united" rather than "under god"

so it read

one nation united with liberty and justice for all

rather than

one nation under god with liberty and justice for all

[BlackRose]

I see that as shouting to hear one's own voice... but then I see a lot of things that way

[Dangerous55]

Keep it the same just don't force people in saying it.

[Ian D]

I go both ways!


1307

[hucasts_rock]

do you know how much that will upset religious people? being one myself, that really makes a huge impact...

[ABDUR101]

I say it just be an option to say the Pledge of Allegiance itself, entirely. I'm glad I'm out of school, atleast now I don't have to lip-sync that every morning.

"Abdur, I don't hear you.."

"..*stops lip-synching*...you're trying to hear me?"

[Castoth]

Why can't they just edit out two words? Schools should be as religion-neutral as possible in the first place...

[Subliminalgroove]

On 2003-02-28 23:04, ABDUR101 wrote:
I say it just be an option to say the Pledge of Allegiance itself, entirely. I'm glad I'm out of school, atleast now I don't have to lip-sync that every morning.

"Abdur, I don't hear you.."

"..*stops lip-synching*...you're trying to hear me?"



I don't think many realize the incredible meaning of the words in those few lines. The fact that children are forced to "pledge" their "allegiance" every day at school not only lessens our senses to the weighty meaning of those words. It can easily be compared to putting a yoke on the youth. For the entirity of their school careers they are forced to repeat these lines until they are as much a part of their personality as their name.

That is no small thing there. It is a "pledge of allegiance". Just look at those two words . . .


Pledge: A solemn and binding oath to do something. (Or worse still . . . ) 2.Something given or held as security to guarantee payment of a debt or fulfillment of an obligation

Allegiance: loyalty or the obligations of a vassal to a lord.

Take a look at the words and lines in the Pledge of Allegiance and tell me you can say this is something that is just simple. Something that should be blithly rattled off as if it were a nursery rhyme. It simply cannot be. Most children, most people, simply do not understand what they are truly saying when they pledge their allegiance. However, the words still have weight and power.


The whole issue of "under god" is rather stupid when you consider the mass brainwashing that is the daily pledge to begin with. "Under god" was merely added during the McCarthyism era as a step to insure the christianity of the youth of america.


edit: stoopid mistakes


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Subliminalgroove on 2003-02-28 23:37 ]</font>

[pixelate]

If they can put it in, they can take it out.

[Abaddon]

I agree, religion shouldn't be mandated.

[Zack_Morris]

I agree, religion shouldn't exist.

[Ness]

Meh.
Well we still say the pledge at my school anyway. We say the one with "undergod" in it.

[Rotis]

You can't get a bunch of high school students to say anything together at 7:20am.

"plegga legiance
to the flag
united states 'merica
to the rrpublic
which it stands
one nation
unnergah
innevisible
liberty 'n justice for all"

Translation: "I got two hours of sleep last night, and I really don't give a damn about this."

Since kids are taught to recite the pledge at such an early age, reciting it becomes kind of an automatic response. Most people I know don't even give it enough thought to care whether not it mentions god, heh.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Rotis on 2003-03-01 13:24 ]</font>

[Ariana]

On 2003-03-01 12:45, Zack_Morris wrote:
I agree, religion shouldn't exist.



I don't recall anyone saying that religion shouldn't exist, and you DO realize what an inflammatory thing that is to say, don't you? Religion is an essential part of my life and who I am, and if religion weren't allowed to exist in this country, I would definitely have something to say about it. Countries have attempted to outlaw religion in general in the past, or to outlaw or restrict a particular religion. If I may remind you, that was one of the main reasons this country was founded in the first place. That being said, I'm going to drop this pointlessly inflammatory line of discussion and contribute to the main topic.

Now, I believe firmly in the separation of church and state, and although I don't see how much different two words makes to people who aren't all that interested in saying the pledge in the first place but are forced to, but in principle I must admit that no one should be forced to say that. At the very least, the words "under God" should be optional.

Secondly, I do think the pledge of allegiance is very important. Why? Well, for one thing, I'm an assistant preschool teacher, and we are teaching the kids the pledge. They have gotten extremely good at it and can recite it word for word at age four. That's impressive. But why is the pledge important in the first place? Is it really mass brainwashing? I don't think so, if only because most kids don't seem to realize the true import of what they are saying. It means nothing to them, so how are they being brainwashed? But perhaps it should mean something...

Regardless of what you think of the current administration or policies, those of you who are citizens of the US live in the US and are subject to its laws, AND to the rights it grants all its citizens. When you say the pledge of allegiance, you affirm your status as a citizen. You receive the protection, aid, and representation of the goverment, and in return you offer allegiance. Just what does allegiance mean? Well, basically anything that is required of a citizen of the United States: paying taxes, participating in jury duty, and registering for the selective service if elegible. As far as I know, these are the only things that are required. (And that last probably shouldn't be, in my opinion, but that's an entirely different discussion for another topic.) When it comes right down to it, that's not a lot. But pledging your allegiance to an idea or institution is never something to take lightly.

Granted, few kids have any sort of choice...but you have to live somewhere, and you happen to live in the US (those of you I'm addressing, that is). Maybe at the very least it's a good idea to think about what you are pledging and decide what it means to you. Whether your allegiance means you have an obligation to follow the government blindly, or to do whatever it takes to change the government if you believe it's wrong...well, that's up to you personally. I am grateful for the opportunity to do the latter. I gladly pledge my allegiance to the flag in the knowledge that it does not mean pledging blind obedience, but rather the duty to vote, write to legislators, protest, and simply do whatever you or I feel is necessary to uphold the values of that flag.

I know I sound terribly patriotic, and this is a result of being disgruntled with current events and having made a decision that I'd like to try to do something about it rather than sit back quietly. My main point, however, is that being patriotic is not about being an automaton, and the pledge of allegiance should not be, either. If nothing else, kids should be made aware of what the pledge means and why they are saying it. I try to explain this as best I can to my four-year-olds, even if that just means talking about showing respect for our country. After all, blindly saying words just seems wrong at some base level, especially when they carry so much meaning and weight.

[Hapsby]

If you don't say under god, you will most likely burn in hell.

[Ariana]

On 2003-03-02 13:09, Hapsby wrote:
If you don't say under god, you will most likely burn in hell.


*Rolls eyes* Now THAT was out of line.

[BlackRose]

It pertained directly to what is being discussed... Are public schools damning the nation's children forcibly by removing the reference to god from the pledge of allegiance!?

[Subliminalgroove]

On 2003-03-02 18:21, BlackRose wrote:
It pertained directly to what is being discussed... Are public schools damning the nation's children forcibly by removing the reference to god from the pledge of allegiance!?



no, no they are not. There is a time and place for worship and prayer. That time is not in school and that prayer should not be wrapped up in words already charged with power which pertains to the government. The separation of church and state is there for a reason.

It is a wall, not a permiable film that lets some things through and restricts others. When you couple religion with political power, you run into way too many problems.

[BlackRose]

On 2003-03-02 18:38, Subliminalgroove wrote:

no, no they are not. There is a time and place for worship and prayer. That time is not in school and that prayer should not be wrapped up in words already charged with power which pertains to the government. The separation of church and state is there for a reason.

It is a wall, not a permiable film that lets some things through and restricts others. When you couple religion with political power, you run into way too many problems.



I was joking up above, but I do agree with you. Freedom of religion and one person as president means they have to be seperate.

[Hunter4life]

I always enjoy reading these kind of moral issue threads. One reason being i can prove to my parents we aren't the mindless products of influential video games and movies they think we are.

Anyway, i think we should only say the "under God" part if we belive in God or if we go to christian schools (like i do, jeez i hate uniforms).



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Hunter4life on 2003-03-03 16:20 ]</font>