Sonic 4 AKA Project Needlemouse Is Going To Suck

[Red Ring]

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2010/33/Needlemouse-Trailer-Screens-1_30476_screen.jpg
http://www.gamespot.com/news/6249457.html?om_act=convert&om_clk=topstory&tag=topstory%3btitle

All this time they had this big secret and what is it? 3D Sonic running on a 2D level. It's not even deserving enough to be sold in stores... What is wrong with you, Sega? You gave up on sonic?

This new Phantasy Star is probably going to be a hyped lie as well to make a quick buck during hard times.

[amtalx]

I'm not sure why you're surprised by this. As far as I'm concerned, this is a step in the right direction. I would have liked a 16-bit throwback with sprites, similar to Mega Man 10, but beggars can't be choosers. Judging from the screenshot, they are trying to return to the era when Sonic games were...well, fun and not obscured by a menagerie of inexcusably terrible side characters.

[Red Ring]

Well it's coming out on Wii, PS3, and 360. Why are they making it look like a 16 bit side scroller when they could use some of the beautiful graphics they've done in games like sonic adventure but in 2D at least? And what about all the new characters like Amy and pretty environments?

This just shouldn't have been a top secret project. This sucks. I would have liked it if it didn't look like crap. This should be on the DS or PSP....

[amtalx]

It's not the appearance, its the fact that the games were simply bad.

I loved SA1 & 2; however, those were the last good Sonic games I played. Even with SA, the Tails, Knuckles, Robotnik, etc. sections just felt like contrived palette cleansers that were forced upon players. If the werehog sections of Sonic Unleashed had been completely scrapped and and the game sold for $30, I wouldn't have been too disappointed. Unfortunately, that's not the case. The console based Sonics -- can't speak to the portable versions or Wii -- have been terrible for almost a decade. If Sega has to go ALLLL the way back to the 90's to figure out where they went wrong, so be it.

[Somnia]

I would say it could be pretty hard to screw this up, but then Sonic Rush comes to mind (I personally didn't care for those too much). I have hopes, but they better not give us the shaft on the price considering they obviously have plans on releasing a series of these games.

So much for Sonic Adventure 3. :(

[Outrider]

In all fairness to the first Sonic Adventure - the Tails levels were basically just alternate paths through the Sonic levels and the robot levels were actually pretty fun (though that's probably because they were extremely linear and often lasted less than a minute.)

But yeah, if this game can build off of the 2D sections of Unleashed (which played well enough in the demo) and the GBA/DS games (which are generally considered to be pretty good), it sounds like they're going in the right direction.

[Red Ring]

I guess I'm the only one who realizes how far they've fallen... It's an XBOX Live arcade game. It's worth 5 dollars. And they are coming out with more of these so you spend more money... Grow up, people...


PROJECT NEEDLE MOUSE IN 2005
http://gamespot.com/ds/action/sonicds/index.html?tag=result;title;1
PROJECT NEEDLE MOUSE IN 2007
http://www.gamespot.com/ds/action/sonicrushadventure/index.html?tag=result%3btitle%3b7
PROJECT NEEDLE MOUSE IN 2010
http://www.gamespot.com/news/6249457.html?om_act=convert&om_clk=topstory&tag=topstory%3btitle

It's nothing more than advertising.

[Akaimizu]

I actually liked Unleashed a lot. It was the best actual Sonic game they made in a long time. Then again, it came off the heels of a couple of the worst. So it was a huge huge improvement. However, don't knock Sonic being 3D in a 2D world just because it uses 3D geometry. The Sonic speed levels in Unleashed were some of the best and most visceral Sonic experiences in a long while. The werewolf stuff was less like a regular Sonic game, but it was still fun as heck taken as a different one.

To tell the truth, Unleashed showed that having 3D graphics but doing the 2D speedy Sonic levels, for an entire game, would be in the right direction of a continuing classic.

[AngelofEnders]

Was about to argue til I realized who posted. lol

[Outrider]

Was about to argue til I realized who posted. lol

Yeah. The disappointing thing is when he tries to stop trolling, he doesn't even make sense.

[amtalx]

WHAT AM I GOING TO DO WITH THIS BAG OF TROLL FOOD NOW?!

[Shadowpawn]

Was about to argue til I realized who posted. lol

TC's the guy who thought a Zone was a Sega product, right?

[Neith]

Was about to argue til I realized who posted. lol

Yeah, I knew who'd posted this before I even saw for sure. :disapprove: Everything he listed as 'wrong' with Project Needlemouse is what I thought was 'right' with the old games :lol: Sonic should just be a fast, blue hedgehog, collecting rings and beating on Robotnik (yes, Robotnik :wacko: ). The addition of Tails and Knuckles I didn't mind, but after being out of the loop for the last god-knows-how-many years, I didn't have a clue who all the new characters were. Sega know that Sonic captured people's interest in the early-mid 90's with 2D sidescrollers, and it looks like they might have realised that a similar game might sell well. The fact it's an XBL Arcade title seeme to be experimental to me, to assess sales.

Sonic 4 looks like it has potential, but I'm withholding judgement until I've played it. I'm glad Sonic Team have abandoned most of the new characters, and most of the gimmicks that made the newer games suck. The older 2D sidescrollers were addictive as hell, it'd be great if that could be achieved again. I'm not holding out much hope, but stranger things have happened.

[Tetsaru]

Apparently there's a website (http://www.sonicthehedgehog4.com/us/) up for this now...

It looks promising, I guess, but I'm going to need to see some more gameplay videos first.

[Mike]

This "episode 1" bit is less than pleasing.

[Niered]

My issue isnt the 3D sonic, or really anything thats been mentioned this far.

My problem lies in the fact that Sonic 4, in addition to having classic moves like the Spin Dash, also has a homing attack.

Thats right, a homing attack in a 2D sidescroller.

[Weeaboolits]

Game seems promising enough, although the website sucks. If a drawing of a flower and a palm tree comprise half the concept art, don't bother giving me a gallery.

[SStrikerR]

I hope they shrink sonic's head/spikes a little bit, they look oversized to me.

[Ezodagrom]

My issue isnt the 3D sonic, or really anything thats been mentioned this far.

My problem lies in the fact that Sonic 4, in addition to having classic moves like the Spin Dash, also has a homing attack.

Thats right, a homing attack in a 2D sidescroller.
So? What about it?

[Nitro Vordex]

I hope they clean up his running animation, it looks like garbage.

Putting the game in 3D is not gonna make it better, Sega. Do something like Sonic Unleashed(for that is holy and sacred, THE DAYTIME LEVELS), because I enjoyed the hell out of the demo for that. It was great. SPEED AROUND MY HEDGEHOG

[Niered]

So? What about it?

What? Really?

A homing attack in the 3D games made sense. Unlike Mario 64, where Mario could punch and kick his foes as well as jump on them, Sonic really only has jumping as an attack, along with spin-dashing but thats not nearly as useful for offense in a 3D game. So helping the player hit enemies was understandable, especially when it made SA1 and 2 much faster than they otherwise would have been had you the player had to time and maneuver every jump from one enemy to the next..

But there is no reason to do so in a 2D game. It's an official "easy mode on" kind of stupid idea.

To get this across better, have you ever, even once, played a 2D game that used jumping on enemies to attack them and then gave your character the ability to home in on them at the same time? No? Didn't think so.

The reason is simple enough, it's holding the players hand. I'm not against new moves (unless theyre the werehog changing kind) but this is just stupid. This isn't adding new depth or mechanics to the series, this is nothing more than SEGA deciding that apparently people want less skill involvement in their games.

[lavisblade]

*facepalm* I just now got why it's called Project Needlemouse...I know, huge fail on my part...

[DayDreamer]

Well thats a spirit breaker....ever since I heard of P.N I was thinking that it would finally bring back my sega experience. I was obviously wrong, sega better have something up their sleeve to make this better but as we all know that will probably never happen. I guess the only sonic game to look forward to is Sonic classic collection.Its not like they ported the first 3 sonic games ever:roll: and I taught I could put away my sega genesis, silly me:D [stupid sega :chuck-ball: ]

[Tetsaru]

Yeah, this pretty much sums up Sonic's career over the past few years:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esToFGwSvAE

Damn it Sega, don't fuck this up.

[Zeek123]

Wow. Thank you for that Tetsaru. :)

That was hilarious. Kinda funny seeing Crash there too... considering Naughty Dog kind of dumped him :p

(I bet the break up was awkward.)

[Red Ring]

Yeah, this pretty much sums up Sonic's career over the past few years:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esToFGwSvAE

Damn it Sega, don't fuck this up.

they only made that video in the last few days because of this self proclaimed good sonic game code named needle mouse. its a downloadable arcade game. how good can it be?

[Red Ring]

how is this game any different than the recent new super mario bros?

http://www.gamespot.com/wii/action/newsupermariobroswii/index.html?tag=result;title;0

Nothing special sega is doing here.

[Tetsaru]

The point is this:

Mario in 2D is good. Mario in 3D is also good; he's been able to make that transition very well, despite the fact that Super Mario 64 was glitchy as hell and Super Mario Sunshine kinda sucked, but USUALLY Shigeru Miyamoto does a damn good job on keeping Mario in his own element. I'm pretty sure that most everyone here agrees that, after getting used to it, Super Mario Galaxy was an awesome 3D platformer game.

Sonic in 2D is also good. Sonic in 3D though... could've been good, but was continuously plagued by bad game concepts and plots. Sonic was being thrown into foreign scenarios and thus having to completely overhaul his character into something he simply wasn't meant to be.

Sonic just needs a game that best recreates his old appeal by putting him back into what he was meant to do - prevent Dr. Robotnik/Eggman from turning his friends into evil robots and taking over the world - and that was back during the 90's when it was 2D, on a non-handheld console.

[Red Ring]

im still sticking to sonic adventure 1 & 2 being good 3d sonic games. they scored a 9 average for god's sake and i doubt many people will say they sucked. in fact ive seen everyone who mentions them say they were great and i agree with that. im not one of those people who will say every hyped game is going to be good. MAG sucks like hell and lots of people said that game was going to be great. I begged them in my head to stfu and stop lying to people so they didnt have to be controversial themselves. maybe they were just really that stupid and thought it was good but i doubt it. people refuse to speak the truth because they have something to lose.

Sega screwed up with the games after that if they scored low. it had nothing to do with 3d sonic. if you want retro arcade sonic like the new super mario bros thats great. im not getting it but im sure others will. but hell no its not because sonic sucks in 3d. and hell no what sega is doing is not the right path for sonic. this is the new super mario bros of sonic but its not even worth being sold in stores because its not a game that deserves to be.

oh and hell no it didnt deserve a secret code name... hyped stupidity...

[Tetsaru]

I'll agree that Sonic Adventure 2 was a good 3D Sonic game, if not the best one. I played the hell out of it to get all of the Emblems, and I still have my Gamecube copy of it. I just meant 3D Sonic games in general; everyone will have their likes and dislikes.

Still, as I've said earlier, I'd like to wait until more gameplay videos pop up on this game. So far, all I've seen was that split-second scene of Sonic running through the corkscrew... it's still way too early to pass judgment on this thing just yet.

[DayDreamer]

The point is this:

Mario in 2D is good. Mario in 3D is also good; he's been able to make that transition very well, despite the fact that Super Mario 64 was glitchy as hell and Super Mario Sunshine kinda sucked, but USUALLY Shigeru Miyamoto does a damn good job on keeping Mario in his own element. I'm pretty sure that most everyone here agrees that, after getting used to it, Super Mario Galaxy was an awesome 3D platformer game.

See! Thats what sega isnt realizing. Mario can transition between many game genres. If sega attempts this with sonic [which they have] it just comes out wrong or just sucks all together. Sega my god just stick to running around collecting rings instead of carrying a sword,a ring,or any other "smart' idea they come up with :nono:

[CupOfCoffee]

It might be good, and since it's a downloadable thing (see: easy impulse buy), I'll probably at least try it out. But Sega has made so many unthinkably stupid mistakes with the Sonic franchise over the past few years (including completely botching a different attempted reboot) that I'm still skeptical.

Still, it actually looks sort of promising. It seems all the planets could possibly be aligning for a decent 2D Sonic game: a semi low-pressure feel due to being DLC, apparent direct sequel to the Genesis games, explicit lack of inclusion of bad extra characters, et cetera. Who knows? Although quality isn't a guarantee at this point, you can't exactly rule it out, either.

[Red Ring]

do the people who like this game play the old ones still? i watched some gameplay on youtube but i did play them as a kid. seems like a waste of time to play.

[SStrikerR]

Every game is a waste of time to play, except for ones you can potentially make money off of, such as MW2.

[Red Ring]

Every game is a waste of time to play, except for ones you can potentially make money off of, such as MW2.



lol :O

[Tetsaru]

do the people who like this game play the old ones still? i watched some gameplay on youtube but i did play them as a kid. seems like a waste of time to play.

Well, games were a lot simpler back in the 90's, especially since the majority of them were in cartridge format and couldn't hold near as much data as discs do nowadays. I still played the hell out of the Sonic games at the time though, because I was always determined to get all of those Chaos Emeralds before the game ended. Back then, it was a lot harder to do, especially since I didn't have Internet access at the time, and so I always had to rely on gaming magazines and player's guides for tips (hence my huge collection of old Nintendo Power and other gaming magazines), as well as my own trial-and-error playthroughs. I still play the old-school Sonic games every once in a while, but nowadays I've got plenty of newer games to keep me busy.


Every game is a waste of time to play, except for ones you can potentially make money off of, such as MW2.

As long as you have fun playing them, right? Mankind will always have a need for entertainment and amusement. Granted, I'd love to have a job as a Beta tester or something similar...

[MetaZedlen]

do the people who like this game play the old ones still? i watched some gameplay on youtube but i did play them as a kid. seems like a waste of time to play.

Do you feel yourself getting dumber with everything you post?

[Pillan]

I’ve never really understood what was so horrible wrong with their 3D games, much less why people preferred Sonic Adventure 2 to any of the more recent ones aside from story alone. Gameplay wise and replayability wise, I would even list Heroes as a step above Sonic Adventure 2 just because I don’t have to skip two thirds of the game to get to the parts that I actually want to play. Sure it had a horrible story, enemy HP, issues with the PSO-styled rooms mid level, and the flight form looked retarded, but other than that it was a fairly solid Sonic game with fewer glitches than any of the other ones until Unleashed. Needless to say, I don’t really understand the hatred for that.

With Shadow, I’d list the primary issues with it being that it had Shadow with a gun and useless vehicles. We all know the whole thing was an attempt to capture the Grand Theft Auto audience that parents felt was too young for Grand Theft Auto. That and the story killed Sonic Adventure 2, which a lot of people list as the Holy Grail of 3D Sonics. Overall, it was a stupid idea, but once you got over the gun issue, it was an extended and smoother Sonic Adventure 2 in terms of gameplay. Essentially, it was Heroes minus the 3 characters plus guns.

With Sonic 2006, my main complaint is that it felt too much like Adventure. Multiple load screens mid area map, stupid mini-quests to unlock the next mission, multiple load screens mid stage… It was 1999 all over again. Then my second issue was the existence of Silver. Shadow’s stages were fairly tolerable on all the parts where you didn’t have to slow down in a hummer or motorcycle, but Silvers were just painful. By the Sonic Adventure 2 standard, one third of the game is all that’s required to be “great,” and it just needs a cohesive semi-dark storyline, then this game should be as good or better from the overall gameplay improvements.

I actually liked Sonic and the Secret Rings a lot because it introduced the rail system which fixed all the issues with slowdown in the previous games. It made the game essentially 2D, so you could run through as fast as the originals since you never needed to turn back. The only real issue I can have with it is that the storyline was too foreign for any Sonic player to get into. But, since it’s reasonable for people to want a full 3D even though it kills the overall feeling of being Sonic, I can see why this one could legitimately be considered lesser. And thus it was improved upon with Unleashed.

By the Adventure 2 standard, Sonic Unleashed is great because the daytime half of the game was god and the story not only didn’t suck, but it was just classic Sonic versus Robotnik until the conclusion of the game. Then add in the fact that once you got over the werehog thing, the night stages are actually a lot of fun by anyone’s standards. This is probably the least offensive and therefore the best overall 3D Sonic and I’d actually rate it up there with the originals. There really isn’t much more that anyone can ask for.

Sonic and the Black Knight is probably the best transition Sonic has ever had into another genre aside from the Sonic Riders series. If you actually play it, high speed sword slashing over all those missions ends up being a lot of fun. It just had the same issue as Secret Rings which required constantly repeating the entire game ten times over to level up and get better abilities as Sonic. It’s one of the few Sonic games outside of the Adventure series* that I’d say “don’t knock it until you try it.”

But, that’s enough pointless commentary and ranting on the previous 3D Sonics. I just thought I’d bring it up because I have a personal hatred for all the “Sonic sucks since SA2” when it’s really “all new Sonic games suck compared to my memory of SA2, including SA2 itself.” If you don’t trust me on that, go play through all of SA2 (not just the Sonic and Shadow parts) and watch as your respect for that game is slowly drained away.


I don’t expect Sonic the Hedgehog 4 to be an instant classic, but it looks like it will be another fun addition to the series that I’ll get to enjoy. It looks good, but it seems like too many steps backward for me to enjoy it after running through the daytime stages of Unleashed. Sonic seems to still run the same speed, which is my biggest turn off. The addition of a homing attack in 2D really doesn’t bother me as they can make it useful by spacing enemies further apart to require it and making a regular jump from enemy to enemy faster, as was done in Unleashed. Plus, since we know Tails and Knuckles will be back by later titles in the series, the homing attack will remain Sonic’s only unique attack (as it has been since Adventure).

But I think the best part of the Sonic the Hedgehog 4 exercise will be that it proves once and for all to SEGA exactly what I knew all along: Sonic fans have no idea what they’re talking about. By making a game that’s exactly like the original with better graphics and a few new abilities, they’ll prove to the fanbase that they don’t want a game that’s exactly like the original and the Sonic 4 series will be brought to an abrupt end long before the Adventure series*. I don’t think it will suck and I don’t think it will be that great. I just think it will be another 2D Sonic to enjoy that doesn’t ever get added to the list of memorable Sonic games for the older generation.

* Note that I count everything on that continuum from Sonic Adventure to Sonic World Adventure as the Adventure series.

[Red Ring]

Do you feel yourself getting dumber with everything you post?

you have hardly any posts for someone who was here 5 years ago. im glad to see them being put to good use following me around asking why i post. And I do think it was a good question. Why do people want to play old games??? :-?

[AlexCraig]

Why do people want to play old games???


Because they want to? Or because some old games are fun as hell and give more of a challenge than many of today's games.

[Randomness]

you have hardly any posts for someone who was here 5 years ago.

Ever heard of FKL?

[Red Ring]

You know what? I don't feel welcome here. People are always challenging me and it's upsetting. I love it but im running out of things to bitch about.

[Kion]

Looks like sega is trying to emulate nintendo`s success with 2.5D mario.

[amtalx]

im running out of things to bitch about.

Lies and slander.

[Outrider]

So did you guys here that this game is coming out on a fourth platform? The big money is on it being the iPhone, but as far as I know, there's no real evidence of that at the moment.


Granted, I'd love to have a job as a Beta tester or something similar...

You really wouldn't.

Testing as a job is generally awful.

[Kion]

Sonic Adventure 2 was a pretty awesome game to begin with. Sonic jumping out of a helicopter into a downhill (snow)board scene with crazy tricks. The harbor, and the last level were pretty cool, had solid tricks and good level progression. It was the horrible game play of all of the other characters that really brought the game down. Note: Chaos in that game were incredibly addicting.

After that Sonic just started trying to hard as they added more and more crap as opposed to really focusing on what made a good game. Sonic is like a 2D shooter; it`s easy to pick up and learn, but the fast paced challenging game play and emralds keep you coming back for more. A 2.5D sonic game could be a nice come back if they get the formula right. Judging from those graphics though, it`s looks like they`re going to round it over, make it easy and advertise nostalgia.

[Tetsaru]

After that Sonic just started trying to hard as they added more and more crap as opposed to really focusing on what made a good game. Sonic is like a 2D shooter; it`s easy to pick up and learn, but the fast paced challenging game play and emralds keep you coming back for more. A 2.5D sonic game could be a nice come back if they get the formula right. Judging from those graphics though, it`s looks like they`re going to round it over, make it easy and advertise nostalgia.

I think it's great that Sega's going back to Sonic's roots with this game, but as a friend of mine once said, game companies can't always expect to keep gamers interested by constantly wallowing in nostalgia; you have to introduce new ideas, but in ways that are refreshing and breath new life into the game (i.e., Super Mario Galaxy) instead of throwing together ideas that don't mix well (i.e., Shadow the Hedgehog). But, seeing as how much new shit Sega TRIED to implement, more nostalgia would most likely be a good thing for now... hey, at least Phantasy Star Zero did pretty well, and coming from a Sega-basher like me, that's saying something.


You know what? I don't feel welcome here. People are always challenging me and it's upsetting. I love it but im running out of things to bitch about.

Now you know how Weegee Tetsaru feels. :3 Careful - the mods around here are always hungry for the blood of people like us... how long have I been banned from PSU General now? I can't even remember...


So did you guys here that this game is coming out on a fourth platform? The big money is on it being the iPhone, but as far as I know, there's no real evidence of that at the moment.

I noticed the website listed all 3 consoles followed by ??? after them... I just hope it's not that wtf thing Sega licensed... (http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174770) >_<


You really wouldn't.

Testing as a job is generally awful.

How so? Have you been one before? I think it'd be an awesome job, personally... course I said the same thing about 3 different majors I took in college, so yeah... >_<

[amtalx]

How so? Have you been one before? I think it'd be an awesome job, personally... course I said the same thing about 3 different majors I took in college, so yeah... >_<

I have. I even worked on a couple of Sega's projects a few years ago. And, yes it's pretty lame. I started as a tester but worked my way into management. I can't tell you the number of people I ended up firing because they thought playing a game is testing. It's not. Going through a game and completing everything is playing. Running into walls for four hours straight to make sure collisions are working properly is testing.

[DayDreamer]

I have. I even worked on a couple of Sega's projects a few years ago. And, yes it's pretty lame. I started as a tester but worked my way into management. I can't tell you the number of people I ended up firing because they thought playing a game is testing. It's not. Going through a game and completing everything is playing. Running into walls for four hours straight to make sure collisions are working properly is testing. lol sounds like a blast^^;

[lavisblade]

...and Super Mario Sunshine kinda sucked...
Aww, I liked that one.


I'll agree that Sonic Adventure 2 was a good 3D Sonic game, if not the best one. I played the hell out of it to get all of the Emblems, and I still have my Gamecube copy of it. I just meant 3D Sonic games in general; everyone will have their likes and dislikes.
I'm not sure about best, but I still have my GC copy as well. ^.^ Loved it. Not sure about 3D Sonic games sucking in general though because I haven't played any of the new ones...most recent Ive played was Secret Rings (the Wii one) or whatever, which I didn't like at first, but got bored one day and played it again and liked it. Like you said, though, everyone has their likes/dislikes.


Every game is a waste of time to play, except for ones you can potentially make money off of, such as MW2.
Lol

@ Pillan's HUGE post
I agree with almost everything you said, though I haven't played Black Night/Unlesahed so I'm not sure about those...though I'll probably agree once I try them, if ever ^.^

I don't agree with the SA2 sucks part though, but once again, it's just my opinion. I felt there was a LOT to do so it was pretty hard to get bored (especially making awesome, dragon-phoenix chaos that were like ninjas at karate, lol)

I had a Sega Genesis for a long time a while ago, but my mom ended up giving it away to some cousin or something...while I had it though, I played one of 3 games on it; a Sonic collection that had the first 3 as well as the Sonic & Knuckles (I think there were a couple other, but I don't remember), Altered Beast (for some reason, I loved it...not into arcade games much), or Sonic 3D. The only problems I had with old games, was the lack of saving so you had to start ALL over EVERYTIME you quit. THAT is why I don't play old games as much anymore. Why play something if you just have to start over again later? I still love some of them though (Earthworm Jim 2, Super Mario World, Banjo Kazooie/Tooie).

I agree with Sonic's homing attack. It is his signature move, whether it is really useful or not, so why take it away?


Testing as a job is generally awful.
Oh god yes.

I haven't done it, but if you REALLY think about it (not just "Oh, I like video games, so why not get payed to play them?") that would be one of the crappiest jobs ever. You have to check EVERYTHING if it works. You also have to write reports and stuff about it (not too bad, but I don't like doing that because it makes it seem less fun and more forced...which it would be, lol) Even better, you'd get to test the really crappy games...I doubt you'd be able to be one of the people testing any of the big, famous companies' games...

I probably won't play this Sonic game because, like that 'new' Megaman game, I don't see why we'd make a game like that when we have the capabilities to make MUCH better games...likes ones with graphics from an XBox 360/PS3 game (I'm not that big on graphics, but a new game looking like something from a SNES is kinda pointless to me...you have the ability for so much more, why not?). Or if it IS something like that, make it EXTREMELY long or something...we can fit these HUGE games on a single disc, why put something that used to fit an those tiny cartridges on a cd with TONS more space? It's just a waste...

That's just how I see it though...

[Pillan]

I don't agree with the SA2 sucks part though, but once again, it's just my opinion. I felt there was a LOT to do so it was pretty hard to get bored (especially making awesome, dragon-phoenix chaos that were like ninjas at karate, lol)

As a note, I don't think Sonic Adventure 2 sucks. I liked Sonic Adventure 2 and I'd agree with the idea that it had the best storyline of any Sonic game to date. Where I'd disagree is any discussion on gameplay that lists Sonic Adventure 2 as better than all the other titles in the Adventure series. I meant to specify is that the standard at which Sonic Adventure 2 is being held within the average Sonic fan's memory is a much higher standard than the game itself deserves.

...That and I've never really cared about the story in Sonic because I can never take a giant freakishly big headed blue thing that claims to be a hedgehog seriously...

Honestly, I'd say Sonic Adventure 2's overall approval rating has to do with its timing more than anything else. Most people that frequent PSOW played PSO when they were in their early teens, which seems to be the most impressionable time on videogame players since their life becomes filled with other things shortly afterward. So since it was released at the peak of your golden age, you revere it more highly than anything else.

Of course, it doesn't help that Sonic Team's approach with their namesake has been to ignore their aging fan-base and focus on younger generations. I can't blame them though. Focusing on the few first generation fans that still play Sonic doesn't sound very lucrative.

[lavisblade]

Oh, I guess I read that wrong. That's probably because your post was so big though, I kinda skimmed through it until I found something I had something to say about. Although mine wasn't exactly short either XD

[Outrider]

How so? Have you been one before? I think it'd be an awesome job, personally... course I said the same thing about 3 different majors I took in college, so yeah... >_<

Yes, and I hated it.

You would think anything related to playing games is fun, but when you're actually testing them, it's just monotonous and painful. Testing isn't like being invited into a public beta where you get to play around with an almost-finished product. More often than not it's working on buggy early software that you can't even accidentally have fun with.

Take the worst game you've ever had to play. Make sure it's a game that you actually found painful to spend time on. Then imagine if it was loaded up with bugs that ruin the experience every few minutes. Then imagine that your job for an entire day is to find each and every one of these bugs and document how to recreate them. That's what testing is like.

And I only worked on casual games. I can't imagine how awful it would be to work on full traditional titles.



I probably won't play this Sonic game because, like that 'new' Megaman game, I don't see why we'd make a game like that when we have the capabilities to make MUCH better games...likes ones with graphics from an XBox 360/PS3 game (I'm not that big on graphics, but a new game looking like something from a SNES is kinda pointless to me...you have the ability for so much more, why not?). Or if it IS something like that, make it EXTREMELY long or something...we can fit these HUGE games on a single disc, why put something that used to fit an those tiny cartridges on a cd with TONS more space? It's just a waste...

That's just how I see it though...

Because technology and design are two different things. Just because something is technologically inferior, it doesn't mean that it's not aesthetically pleasing.

Having the ability to create environments & styles that we couldn't before mean that we can do more with graphics, not that we've just replaced the old with the new.

[DayDreamer]

I noticed something on the sonic 4 website. It says coming summer 2010 PSNetwork, Xboxlive, Wiiware and ?. Ive also heard that there is suppose to be a new sega console but i think its a load of bull crap. But if this is true this wont only be a strong point for sonic, this will help nights and all those other sega games including our own phantasy star. Then again this could just end horrible which with sega is most likely. Time will tell. Stupid rumors wont :lol:

[Niered]

Because technology and design are two different things. Just because something is technologically inferior, it doesn't mean that it's not aesthetically pleasing.

Having the ability to create environments & styles that we couldn't before mean that we can do more with graphics, not that we've just replaced the old with the new.

See games that are technically inferior to others of their own time period but still undeniably beautiful when based on design merits: Okami, Jet Set Radio Future, Rayman (2D, but beautiful) Odin Sphere, Muramasa, Madworld, Braid, Metal Slug (later entries) Cave Story, etc.

I mean, really, theres not much more to add to outriders statement. The idea that because a game does not use the absolute highest ends of a console or PC's power it's inherently inferior to others of the same generation is...well...ignorant.

Some of the most beautiful games I've played are that pretty because the designers were limited or purposefully limited themselves in graphical output. And once you get to the point where the tech your using is more powerful than what was originally needed, you can start doing some truly crazy stuff. A perfect example would be the Indie Game "Fez" (Or even its console counterpart, Super Paper Mario), in which the game takes place in a tradition 2D sidescroller world, that can be rotated 45 degrees at any time to give you access to areas that were otherwise inaccessible.

So don't be knockin' games for a low poly-count or a throwback game mechanic. Things that once were popular usually were that way for good reason, they were just plain good.

[kojikatsuya]

How about this: why don't you actually wait for the game to come out before you immediately decide it sucks? And as for not getting released in stores: in this day and age, d/l games directly to your system is the way to go. Online gaming is the current way of things.

[lavisblade]

Now that I think about it, I'm being somewhat of a hypocrite though...for example, Borderlands. Definitely not the best graphics, but I think they work perfectly for the game. I got the game sunday, and I love it so much...of course this is kinda off topic...but whatever, this IS the off topic forum, right?

[Outrider]

I still hope think a fun 2D Sonic game would combine the score attack goal of something like NiGHTS and mix in a combo scoring system like the Tony Hawk games - Give players additional points for moving faster through the level, bouncing from enemy to enemy, etc.

Can I make the suggestion that this thread be merged with the Project Needlemouse thread?

The trolls are gone and people are actually having real discussions, so I think it's a bit redundant now.

[Ezodagrom]

I noticed something on the sonic 4 website. It says coming summer 2010 PSNetwork, Xboxlive, Wiiware and ?. Ive also heard that there is suppose to be a new sega console but i think its a load of bull crap. But if this is true this wont only be a strong point for sonic, this will help nights and all those other sega games including our own phantasy star. Then again this could just end horrible which with sega is most likely. Time will tell. Stupid rumors wont :lol:
I wish the 4th one was pc, but according to rumors the 4th platform is...iPhone... >_>;

[KodiaX987]

All of a sudden, I'm beginning to heartily support Sonic 4, if only for the fact that the usual MW2-playing shitheads will dismiss it for so-called bad graphics and never dare touch the game with a ten-foot pole.

Funny how no one in the videogame community has learned the lesson.

[lavisblade]

All of a sudden, I'm beginning to heartily support Sonic 4, if only for the fact that the usual MW2-playing shitheads will dismiss it for so-called bad graphics and never dare touch the game with a ten-foot pole.

Funny how no one in the videogame community has learned the lesson.
Woot!

[Chuck_Norris]

All of a sudden, I'm beginning to heartily support Sonic 4, if only for the fact that the usual MW2-playing shitheads will dismiss it for so-called bad graphics and never dare touch the game with a ten-foot pole.

Funny how no one in the videogame community has learned the lesson.

So you're gonna like it because you've seen posts of other people who say they won't. Great.

[MetaZedlen]

All of a sudden, I'm beginning to heartily support Sonic 4, if only for the fact that the usual MW2-playing shitheads will dismiss it for so-called bad graphics and never dare touch the game with a ten-foot pole.

Funny how no one in the videogame community has learned the lesson.

Best post in this thread :D

[Mike]

1up has a brief video up with gameplay footage. Looks "classic."

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3177976

[SStrikerR]

1up has a brief video up with gameplay footage. Looks "classic."

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3177976

Screenshots and video have been removed at Sega's request. Darn.

[amtalx]

http://www.destructoid.com/leaked-sonic-4-footage-confirms-it-s-a-sonic-game-163943.phtml

Destructoid's spine isn't as flimsy.

[Skuda]

My biggest gripe so far is that Sonic doesn't look fast enough in 3D (in the videos I have seen already). You can still see his leg motions while he runs. The old Sonic games, his legs were blurred circles. For me, that really gave the illusion that Sonic is one fast mother trucker.

Needs more leg blur, kthnksbai.

[lavisblade]

My biggest gripe so far is that Sonic doesn't look fast enough in 3D (in the videos I have seen already). You can still see his leg motions while he runs. The old Sonic games, his legs were blurred circles. For me, that really gave the illusion that Sonic is one fast mother trucker.

Needs more leg blur, kthnksbai.
Yeah, even if he wasn't that fast, cheesy motion blur effects make everything look faster. You could add them to a video of a snail crawling, and it would be quite fast.

Oh yeah, I know what I'm doing now...

[Outrider]

Apparently the game isn't being developed by Sonic Team, but instead by Dimps.

(Source: http://kotaku.com/5473427/sega-not-developing-sonic-4 )

For the record, Dimps was the developer for all three Sonic Advance games on the GBA, as well as both Sonic Rush games on the DS.

Not entirely unexpected, but my question is this: What the hell is Sonic Team working on, then?

[amtalx]

Not entirely unexpected, but my question is this: What the hell is Sonic Team working on, then?

How many ST members does it take to shut down a server?

[Zeek123]

How many ST members does it take to shut down a server?

Just one

[Bitzen]

How many ST members does it take to shut down a server?
Not members, but one broken A/C unit.

[Zeek123]

Not members, but one broken A/C unit.

Or maybe the building's janitor?

[Nitro Vordex]

How many ST members does it take to shut down a server?
None, because they couldn't know the game existed due to lack of promotion around the department.

[Zorafim]

Not members, but one broken A/C unit.

A hamster getting tired will do it too.

[Niered]

Apparently the game isn't being developed by Sonic Team, but instead by Dimps.

(Source: http://kotaku.com/5473427/sega-not-developing-sonic-4 )

For the record, Dimps was the developer for all three Sonic Advance games on the GBA, as well as both Sonic Rush games on the DS.

Not entirely unexpected, but my question is this: What the hell is Sonic Team working on, then?

Didnt you hear? They got sick of people telling them that all they do is ruin classic franchises. So they're making the Billy Hatcher sequel noone asked for.

I only wish that were the case, at least then they'd just be making shitty games, not shitting on what were good franchises.

[Outrider]

I seem to remember hearing they were making a some sort of sci-fi shooter/action game a while back. I think it involved you controlling some sort of floating secondary character? I really can't remember much about it, but I guess it was canned. That's not to say I'm upset about it - the concept sounded awful from the start.

(EDIT - Here we go. The game was called "Fifth Phantom Saga" and it was an FPS planned for the PS3. As far as I know, it hasn't been discussed since, so I have to assume it was quietly cancelled. IGN has video of it: http://ps3.ign.com/objects/748/748485.html )

It's just weird. When those members from Sonic Team left to form Prope, did they basically just gut the studio down to a skeleton crew? It seems like all they do is produce these days, instead of develop.

[Niered]

I seem to remember hearing they were making a some sort of sci-fi shooter/action game a while back. I think it involved you controlling some sort of floating secondary character? I really can't remember much about it, but I guess it was canned. That's not to say I'm upset about it - the concept sounded awful from the start.

(EDIT - Here we go. The game was called "Fifth Phantom Saga" and it was an FPS planned for the PS3. As far as I know, it hasn't been discussed since, so I have to assume it was quietly cancelled. IGN has video of it: http://ps3.ign.com/objects/748/748485.html )

It's just weird. When those members from Sonic Team left to form Prope, did they basically just gut the studio down to a skeleton crew? It seems like all they do is produce these days, instead of develop.

Holy shit, that looked...absolutely horrible...

And that off screen cutscene they showed? I think that thing in and of itself shows why the dev's dont "get" FPS's.

OUR LONE PROTAGONIST STANDS IN THE MIDDLE OF NO COVER WHATSOEVER, GUNNING DOWN FACELESS ENEMIES WHO COME AT HIM USING WAVE TECHNIQUES NOT SEEN SINCE THE REDCOATS DEFEAT IN THE REVOLUTIONARY WAR. HE OFFS THEM WITH FLASHY GUN TRICKS, A CHARACTERISTICALLY JAPANESE DEMON, AND HAIR ONLY A METROSEXUAL STYLIST FROM THE BRONX COULD LOVE.

I'm all for innovation, especially in a genre thats been done to death like the FPS, but when your gimmick involves a rejected Super Sentai villain that can be commanded to lift shipping crates, I feel that your reaching just a bit far.

[HUnewearl_Meira]

To get this across better, have you ever, even once, played a 2D game that used jumping on enemies to attack them and then gave your character the ability to home in on them at the same time? No? Didn't think so.

I can name one. Sonic the Hedgehog 3. That was the origin of the homing attack.

When Sonic had no shield, he could jump in the air, and do a momentary shield. If he had the Fire shield, he could rush through the air. The Bubble shield gave him a bounce-attack, and the Lightning shield gave him a boosted jump. Being Super Sonic, on the other hand, gave him a homing attack.

I'll also note, that releasing Sonic 4 in episodes is possibly the same sort of approach we saw with Sonic 3, in conjunction with Sonic & Knuckles. We can only hope that Episode 1 will include 8 zones, and Episode 2 will expand it another 8 zones, and add a new mode of gameplay (such as, the addition of Knuckles, which allowed you access to all those areas you couldn't figure out how to get to before S&K was released).

From what I'm seeing, we just might witness the return of Sonic, yet.

[amtalx]

If the leaked video is correct, there will be four zones in the first episode: Splash Hill, Lost Labyrinth, Casino Street, and Mad Gear Zone.

[Outrider]

I'll also note, that releasing Sonic 4 in episodes is possibly the same sort of approach we saw with Sonic 3, in conjunction with Sonic & Knuckles.

That's actually the specific comparison I saw from Sega.

[CupOfCoffee]

I wish they hadn't done a Casino zone again. Those were always goddamn horrible.

[Alnet]

I'll also note, that releasing Sonic 4 in episodes is possibly the same sort of approach we saw with Sonic 3, in conjunction with Sonic & Knuckles. We can only hope that Episode 1 will include 8 zones, and Episode 2 will expand it another 8 zones, and add a new mode of gameplay (such as, the addition of Knuckles, which allowed you access to all those areas you couldn't figure out how to get to before S&K was released).
Hopefully they'll have fixed it a little bit if they're going to make it anything like Sonic 2 and Knuckles. Where the entire game is ridiculously easy with Knuckles up until the final boss, who is next to impossible to kill because Knuckles can't jump as high as Sonic, and instead jumps directly into the backpack's exhaust.

Though for me, it WAS impossible, I'm certain that it's not.

[Niered]

I can name one. Sonic the Hedgehog 3. That was the origin of the homing attack.

When Sonic had no shield, he could jump in the air, and do a momentary shield. If he had the Fire shield, he could rush through the air. The Bubble shield gave him a bounce-attack, and the Lightning shield gave him a boosted jump. Being Super Sonic, on the other hand, gave him a homing attack..

Alright, see theres the problem though. Yes, Sonic 3 had a homing attack, a homing attack you could only unlock by getting all 7 emeralds, and then going supersonic in a stage. It was not a primary mechanic of the game, it was a reward for doing extra work. The first time you played Sonic 3, you would not have access to it for most, if not all of the game. Adding it as a reward makes it a completely different deal. You also were invincible when you went supersonic, though I think we can all agree that adding that to Sonic 4 as a staple mechanic would be ridiculous, yes?

The way SEGA released the info about a homing attack in S4 though implies its much more than a simple unlock, it seems as if its a primary game mechanic. That's stupid. It comes off as pandering to the (*groan*, for using this term) casuals.

So let me restate my question. Can you name a successful 2D sidescroller/platformer that had a homing attack as one of the primary mechanics of the game, and not a late game unlockable ability?

[amtalx]

While ST doesn't have a very good track record lately, am I the only person that finds it a bit premature to be bitching about mechanics for a game that isn't even complete yet?

[Niered]

While ST doesn't have a very good track record lately, am I the only person that finds it a bit premature to be bitching about mechanics for a game that isn't even complete yet?

Not really. I just don't see how the homing attack as a major mechanic for a 2D game can end in anything but tears.

The Sonic Cycle folks. Lets not forget it, please, dont forget it.

EDIT: Just found this, couldnt help but think it was totally relevant to this discussion:

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/9567/1266822620358.png (http://img24.imageshack.us/i/1266822620358.png/)

[anwserman]

Ok, looking at the video.

1) Sonic jumps stupid. Too floaty. That looks shitty. Could be because of the beta state.
2) Sonic better lose all of his friggin rings when injured. None of this "Shadow the Hedgehog" or "Sonic Unleashed" bullshit where you lose 20 rings at a time.
3) They better have the hidden giant rings again. Fuck the lampposts.

Dammit, if I play a Sonic the Hedgehog game, I want it to be challenging for good reasons, not because the game is so fucking broken that they nurf the difficulty to otherwise compensate for it.

[Outrider]

I feel like it should be pointed out again that this game is being developed by Dimps, and not Sonic Team.

Dimps actually has a pretty good track record when it comes to making 2D Sonic games.

[amtalx]

I heard its a joint development effort. The level designer for Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles is working on this.

[Ezodagrom]

It's both, Dimps and Sonic Team.

So, is it just Dimps? Just Sonic Team? The answer is a bit of both:

Yes, Dimps is working on the game. But there's actually more to it than just that: at the same time, we also have members of Sonic Team, including the original senior level designer from Sonic 3 & Knuckles on the SEGA Genesis working alongside them. It is most definitely a partnership, and the result of this teamwork is something many of us are excited for.

So, as requested - there you have it!
http://forums.sega.com/showthread.php?t=315614

[Outrider]

Okay, so it sounds sort of similar to how Dimps and Capcom worked on Street Fighter IV.

[ShinMaruku]

So it may not be complete shit.
I still think it's gonna be bad. Sega has no cache.

[amtalx]

http://www.destructoid.com/videogame-fans-need-to-shut-up-about-everything-164476.phtml

Read it and learn...most of you. The Sonic 4 part is particularly valid.

[Tyreek]

Good read. A very good one. I simply find it baffling that such so called fans can just sit there and immediately place judgement on something from just a 30 second clip. The game isn't even done, and they're saying its gonna flop. It'd be an entirely different matter if they voiced their hate on a final product, but not something in its early stages. Guess they can't push aside their dissapointment for nothing. :/ Especially someting that has potential to revive the series.

[Niered]

Hrg. Look, like I've said so many times before, I had no issues with the trailer. You'd be right when you say that making a judgment off of that alone would be naive, and even if you have a problem with the aesthetic choices (sonic's design, animations etc.) to write the game off for that reason alone is stupid.

But, on the same hand, if you were to put your trust in this game, especially after the way Sega has f'ed every other game in the franchise since SA2, along with the fact that as I pointed out, the homing attack is a major part of the gameplay, then you would be equally foolish.

[Outrider]

http://www.destructoid.com/videogame-fans-need-to-shut-up-about-everything-164476.phtml

Read it and learn...most of you. The Sonic 4 part is particularly valid.

Huh. An article by Jim Sterling that isn't a complete waste of time? Kuh-razy.

I agree that people are whining like a bunch of hypocrites, but I will say that people who are concerned about the quality of the game based off of Sega's recent track record are entirely justified. That's just being a cautious consumer.

[Akaimizu]

Too bad I actually enjoyed Unleashed, eh?

[Tyreek]

Oh I have nothing against a cautious consumer. I just find it ridiculous that the serious amounts of complaints of something not even finished. Thats about it,. I say its more justified to make a proper decision on a final product than an unfinished one. And I hardly see how just because the homing attack is in the game, that it's gonna break it. After playing the classics up to the advance series, I find it hard to see how this game would be worse off. An easy mode? hardly. I never said I put 100% into this game, but I find it just as bad to just write it off as well. I'm keeping my eye on this and make my decision on how it goes in response to acting like a proper sequel. With the amount of news I have read up on I'm keeping that in check that they actually took this game seriously when they by chance create another nail in the coffin. I place more of my trust into Dimps than SEGA itself, since they know how the Sonic formula works. Especially after Advance 3, which I found magnificent on they had created new gameplay based off the old system of Sonic 2-SK.

[Split]

Too bad I actually enjoyed Unleashed, eh?Yeah I enjoyed it too, or at least the demo. I can't speak for the god of war aping werewolf parts but the demo level was fuxing awesome...

This game looks amazingly good though; they're taking a page out of Capcom's book and re-retroizing the series, thank the maker. I really love the idea; if it were up to me, I would take the next console generations back down to the N64/PS1 days, and then the one after that back to the SNES/Sega Genesis level, while still making new games for and servicing the set of consoles we're on right now...

[Mike]

http://www.destructoid.com/videogame-fans-need-to-shut-up-about-everything-164476.phtml

Read it and learn...most of you. The Sonic 4 part is particularly valid.

Come to think of it, article works particularly well with the Phantasy Star series as well. I'm guilty of doing the same thing.

[Rubius-sama]

Sonic 4? You mean all those Sonic games released in between Sonic 3 and this weren't real? WTF... I got jipped. :/