Forces over powered?

[johnwolf]

i did a bunch of online runs with forces ranging from 78 - 98 and found that they always do ton of damage. i did one with a FOnewearl and FOmar and they swept each room like nothing. i felt like a hinderance than a helper. i did one with a lvl 98 FOnewm and i had fun but i still didn't feel like i was doing my share of the work. i feel as if i'm along for the ride but have no real use but cupholder. they did over 200 D with a 400 d charged Tec. the hunters that i played with (including me) had a hard enuff time hitting 100s let alone 200's. i don't mind having a nuker but realy.

[Kirukia]

Forces were crap in PSO. Rangers killed everything.
From what I heard, forces were also not very useful in PSU either, at least not compared to hunters.
PSZ is just a way to finally compensate forces for all their years as heal and buff slaves.

[johnwolf]

lol i feel yah but Damn. do they need to be THAT powerful.

[Kirukia]

Its not THAT strong. I've seen hunters hitting over 1k on SH falz with OE. (HUcast with shifta 15).
I think it's more that they can do consistently high damage.

[FoMarlBorough]

^

ive seen the same. one instance i freeplayed with a japanese player who had a lvl100 hucast. all i really did was tag along and shifta him. with shifta he was hitting 1200-1500 a hit. the two of us cleared the shrine quickly. i dont think he was haxing but you never know.

there are things Sega could do to rebalance the game or at least shift the emphasis of gameplay. fo's could be more fragile for one thing. if they had to worry more about being one-hitted, it would mean the power would come at a trade-off.

rangers in pso had more advantages. mechguns hit 9 times in a full combo compared to 6 this time around. plus freezing hostiles was a very potent thing. you could hit them while frozen and they couldnt retaliate for a few seconds. that is quite massive. plus there were special rares that made doing so quite easy. if you were good enough. frozen shooter, spread needle...those were staple weapons for quite a few people.

if you think fo's are overpowered try to find ways to nerf them or increase the challenge. they say fo's are for the advanced user but i think its the ra's this time around.

[pso_crash]

My HUcast has been able to keep up with forces in many situations. I can do better damage on boss fights and some larger hostiles. I fall behind when there are a large group of monsters because forces have such awesome aoe abilities. I really think it's the versatility that forces have that make them so overpowered. They can fill any role in the party, and they do it well.

[Kirukia]

Rangers in PSO + Hell Needle w/ Hit = dkla;hfioeapdxj
But yeah rangers are insanely nerfed this time around. I feel bad for them. I mean they were ridiculous in PSO but it's hard to make a good ranger here at all really.
In tower Arkzein and Frutaungs 1 hit me once you get higher up. Consecutive hits also kill you quickly. Trust me forces are frail, and this is with a FOmarl. It's probably worse with a FOney. I think you see them in the back in parties and assume they are invincible. When the enemies are going after the hunters in the front it can seem that way. Out of parties they are a bit more difficult to handle cuz NPCs are retarded, and most of the enemies are coming after you xD HUcasts actually have very good ata too, so I think it's easier for them to go pure power build. They also have the highest power anyway, so with a good sword and %s I think it's easily possible.

[FoMarlBorough]

yeah, soloing with a fo is more challenging. even with the meat shields.
but online, my fomarl runs out front to debuff and i really dont worry much about getting hit.

i dunno, if the newman fo's had to worry about dying after 3 hits from any hostile...that would be a challenge. the human fo's are supposed to be more durable so they could just cap some of their techs. maybe fomarl gets -20% to all attack techs except grants but a bonus to buff/debuffs and fomar gets -30% to resta and debuffs.

something like that could be done.

havent rolled newman fo, so dont know how fragile they are. but my lvl 93 fomarl doesnt worry too much. a little more so on solo but thats it.

[Kirukia]

Yeah it's a bit easier on multiplayer except for bosses, because the enemies will go after the tanks. I do like to get in on the action though. As a FOmarl I love grants, and I will run up in the middle of the enemies to use gigrants xD
Usually I don't have to worry but with stronger enemies you have to watch out. I have a FOney but its only level 33 so I can't tell you yet xD

[johnwolf]

it's not that their invincible, its they nuke the mobs and bosses fast. hunters can do over 1,500 damage but by the time they charge their PA the Force will hit the creature/boss 5 times. thats 1,000 damage. Rangers weren't nerfed that bad if you chain with them. 2 rangers using a rifle get that chain to 25 pritty quick and then one PA. Thats 400 damage per hit. they are combo chainers, give them a rifle with lvl 5 stun WHOO. they plow down mobs like nothing.

[Kirukia]

You can't charge 5 AOE spells by the time you charge an OE. And if thats the case, you're comparing 1 hit spells to OE which is a linear attack. It's not that forces are overpowered, it's that it's easier to build a powerful force. Most forces are pure mst because spells don't require hit. When you add in all the other stuff like evasion and hit that hunters like, you take away their chance for stronger attacks. I think thats why forces tend to do more damage, while hunters and rangers vary. Most forces are all based on tech spamming and attack, while hunters and rangers can vary in builds, which make a lot of them seem mediocre.

[johnwolf]

ay i did compare it to one hit spells (200 X 5 = 1000). only thing a sword is good for is that OE. it still is outclassed in dps. Forces are still over powerful, speed plays a roll in power you know. they can hit 2 more times before the hunter recovers from the OE. so its 5+2+5=12. 12 attacks within 2 OE's. have 2 Forces doing that and they nuke so fast. add the linked PB (the one that grants infinite PP) and they can Tec spam the boss so fast its like it never existed. its insaine.

[Kirukia]

12 x 400 = 4800
2 OE x 2 Hits x 1000 = 4000
So assuming the force is max mst with good weapons and maxed spells and hitting the weakness (which is probably 350-450 damage), and the over end is only hitting 2 times for 1k (which it's probably more even on a single enemy, since bosses have multiple attack points and OE hits 3 times I believe), forces still only do about 17% more damage. If you play your cards right you can easily out damage that as a hunter. There are also things like million rave that hit multiple areas multiple times. If you are talking about charged aoe spells, then your numbers are off.

[rhubarbot]

It's not that forces are overpowered, it's that it's easier to build a powerful force.

This. Very much this. My cast hunter can easily outDPS any force, but that's only because I've spent an ungodly amount of time collecting a stable of high-% Hadans and other uber gear. A force can do nearly-optimal DPS just from equipping common drops and spamming easily-acquired advanced techs, so you don't need to have 300+ hours logged in this game as a prerequisite for your OPness.

And rangers would suck a whole lot less if it wasn't for the fact that all the enemies in all the popular maps are practically immune to ranged weapons.

[l3iohazard]

why use spells though? MS all the way, i was online in swamp and was hitting 250 each tick so that's about 500 damage ever 3 seconds. The other hunters with me were hitting in 90s-100s with swords =/... it was the really the lamest party i've ever been in

[rhubarbot]

Magical Sign's full animation + recycle + charge time is closer to 5 seconds than 3, but yeah, you're right—it's a whole lot more efficient than spamming spells and still does great DPS. Not as good as a hunter with top weapons, and not as good as hitting weaknesses with spells, but good nonetheless.

However, effective Magical Sign spam requires that you have a very rare and specific instance of a wand (Alice Olivia) that is itself very rare (I get one maybe once every 6 snowfield runs, and even then it's almost always got crap stats). Being an effective techspam force requires vastly less time investment because everything you need is insanely common.

[Joustin]

Yea FO's have ridiculous burst dmg capability. I have a 74 FoMar (Na'aru) and my gf has a 64 RaCaseal and usually I just run in, debuff, start using Magical Sig or Edge Riser (If using slicer) and she'll follow up with Earth Bullet (Gunblade) or Hollow Snipe (Rifle).
Can do the same with tech spamming too.

Thats really these best way to go about it, just charge your PA's up while the FO's go on their suidcidal charges and let the PA loose when ready. If your PA's are taking too long then mayhap I recomend a weapon that has a short PA, like Sabers (I love Stormer's)

Just my 2 cents -_-

[Chukie sue]

Why are we only comparing OE to forces? HUcasts with Air ride do amazingly well... And even if forces do hit higher, I believe thats the way it is with like EVERY fantasy type of game. Hitting higher in return for weak melee and defense...

[Kirukia]

Why are we only comparing OE to forces? HUcasts with Air ride do amazingly well... And even if forces do hit higher, I believe thats the way it is with like EVERY fantasy type of game. Hitting higher in return for weak melee and defense...

Because OE has the highest burst damage.
Other PAs are great too.
But you're right. I mentioned it earlier and someone brought up they were talking about power. Well who cares? Hunters have more hp and defense. At least they can survive hits. I see forces die all the time. Maybe if forces were like invincible and never died I could understand you saying they're overpowered, but damage isn't everything. People make HUnewearl builds based on evasion. If you want a class with high damage don't pick one specialized for something else :/ We've already proven other classes can outdamage a force.

Another thing I want to bring up, is that you don't have to tag mobs to get exp. So why is anybody even complaining? It's not like in PSO when a ranger would come in with a hell needle and kill everything before anybody even tagged it. You still get all of the exp and all of the drops. It's like people are upset that their favorite class isn't ubar pwnz0rz and want to complain about it.

[Epic of DE]

Hm The boosts that almost all FO's got in zero are apparent but just to me its not the class advantages but the equipment itself.

If I remember right in PSO all force weapons (canes, rods, wands) primary stat was attack power, useless in techs. Later tier weapons gave MST boosts but generally it wasn't drastic.

Zero the force weapons go directly into MST and grinding further improves the MST of even basic weapons. Sad as it sounds the rods and such that provide a boost to a technique are replaced by weapons that have a high grind limit since the MST boost will do more damage than a 10% boost.

[rhubarbot]

Maybe if forces were like invincible and never died I could understand you saying they're overpowered, but damage isn't everything. People make HUnewearl builds based on evasion.

All they have to do is cast Jellen and they're already 90% of the way there. With a noble cloak and Jellen, pretty much nothing even hits my FOmarl. I can stand right in front of the three hilde* at the end of Rioh and spam Magical Sign, without even bothering to equip Ice Protect, and I only have to heal like once or twice per wave. Jellen's ridiculous. And that's WITHOUT making any sacrifices for defense, at all. You don't even really need the Noble Cloak for Jellen to be awesome; just an Ancient Robe (far more common) will do it.

And yeah, people do make HUnewearl evasion builds, and although fun, they're far from necessary. My cast hunter wears Mobius Plate and evades absolutely nothing ever, but I kill things really really fast and pretty much never die. The only danger comes from certain bosses, and from un-evadable attacks at that (hence the Mobius Plate).

[Kirukia]

Tell that to arkzein. Not all attacks are avoidable, and Rioh is a lower level area, the hildes are nothing because they are also fairly slow and easy to dodge manually.
I'm sure jellen does help a lot, but other classes have it too, even if forces jellen is stronger. In my experience most forces don't use jellen though because of limited pallete space.

With the HUnewearls though, it's the fact that it's based on evasion mostly. If someone wants to emphasize that, or even pick a class based on evasion, they can't complain that a certain class does more damage than they do. I'm not implying the main poster or other people on this thread are comparing forces to HUnewearls, but it was just an easy example. Apparently it doesn't matter if forces have lower defense, the fact that they are "overpowered" is because they do damage quickly. If thats the case then pick a class based on damage. I'm just wondering how much of this is based on class choice.

[ARChan]

-sigh- Another one of this?

Anyway, if you've noticed, although FO do a lot of damage, they lose more HP than any other class. Although you may feel like a hindrance, they actually do need you to be a wall for their chain casting. In other words, be the wall and those behind the wall will protect the wall, right?

[HeartBreak301]

Rangers in PSO + Hell Needle w/ Hit = dkla;hfioeapdxj

First of all, that would have been hacked, lol. I personally don't think FOs would be that overpowered if they never implemented enemy ranged and melee resists. HUs would deserve their heavy damage for running around everywhere, RAs would actually be able to do decent damage in the first place without some combo chain PA or whatever. Forces would still be doing consistantly high mid-range damage, but the other classes wouldn't look so bad in comparison if the HUs had to work harder for higher damage and the RAs could just sit back for lower (but better damage).

[Kirukia]

You could add hit to s-rank weapons you obtain from challenge mode, so no, it wouldn't have to be hacked.

[HeartBreak301]

No, you can add a special, any %'s on an S-rank is hacked somehow, they can't come with hit and they can't be sphered.

[Kirukia]

I attempted to look it up and it appears I stand corrected.
I was thinking of something else.
My bad.
Thought my view on hell needles doesn't change.

[HeartBreak301]

I agree, they are broken strong, but only in Episode 2. The other episodes have pretty good EDK.

[leviayurashyguy]

Forces is PSZ are FAR from broken.

Hunters, or more specifically HUCAST with OE, hit for over 1k of damage while my Grantis struggles at 400-500, eating up tons of PP per cast i might add

Forces bring buffs and heals, they do not do "broken" DPS but at the same time they are still an essential part of a party. A Hunter with Shifta 15 and Zalure 15 kills things faster than my Force could

and PSO, Forces were never garbage. Hunters were garbage. Forces had lvl 30 techs, mergers, and all that to boost their tech damage, AND they still had their Shifta/Deband and heals. Rangers were just OP with their Snow Queens and Needles and Excalibur >_>

[ARChan]

Forces is PSZ are FAR from broken.

Hunters, or more specifically HUCAST with OE, hit for over 1k of damage while my Grantis struggles at 400-500, eating up tons of PP per cast i might add

Forces bring buffs and heals, they do not do "broken" DPS but at the same time they are still an essential part of a party. A Hunter with Shifta 15 and Zalure 15 kills things faster than my Force could

and PSO, Forces were never garbage. Hunters were garbage. Forces had lvl 30 techs, mergers, and all that to boost their tech damage, AND they still had their Shifta/Deband and heals. Rangers were just OP with their Snow Queens and Needles and Excalibur >_>

Reverser was epic with the half-HP restoration rather than the 1 HP crap XD