best photon blast

[steaIth]

i am getting this game soon (i LOVED pso) and am wondering what you guys think is the best photon blast?

[Dobbin]

i am getting this game soon (i LOVED pso) and am wondering what you guys think is the best photon blast?

Flozir, when chained with 3 other people.


IT'S AWESOME.

[RrD555]

Granir. deals the most damage

depending on situation, Flozir is VERY useful, but only when used with 4-way chain. If you are a force, it's even more useful as it makes you invincible and cuts charge time for techs. I was playing online with 4 forces and when facing SH humilius, i used Flozir and everyone chained...we beat it with in 15 seconds of the PB
XD

[steaIth]

so flozir is the best for a mage, how about a ranger or a hunter

[Dobbin]

so flozir is the best for a mage, how about a ranger or a hunter

Well, Flozir still makes you invicible.
So it is still good for a Hunter or Ranger.

[steaIth]

ok thanks, i will try to get a mag with that

[Kirukia]

It only gives you unlimited PP. You're only invincible in a 4 way chain. NPCs annoy me though so I only take them to tower.
I do like Flozir but I think it's only useful in multiplayer. I prefer Granir for damage and soloing.

[RrD555]

so flozir is the best for a mage, how about a ranger or a hunter

For ranger/hunter, I would use granir...flozir only makes you invincible when used as 4- chain.

Single PB would give you infinite pp for a certain period of time, which is almost useless for a hunter/ranger

[WigKart]

yep its granir I`ll bet money on that

[HeartBreak301]

I personally love Pacifal, 4 way it and nuke a whole room for around 2000 damage.

[rickfrior]

Granir here.

Though in a chain or solo, it still deals the most damage.

[HeartBreak301]

I'll admit that Granir probably is more effective, but lightning is awesome. :wacko:

[Chukie sue]

Flozir is without a doubt the best for 4-way chains. I even prefer it on just a 3 person chain. Unlim PP-Fast PA charge- critical hits. <- 3 way chain

Although, I use granir on ETSH until about 2 floors before the heaven mother, at that point I switch to flozir and try to chain with ogi.

[Grimhart]

Flozir is the best hands-down if you're playing with a full party of friends and are saving your PBs for the boss room.

If you're playing solo, or with NPCs (or heck, in Freeplay even), then everyone saving up for a 4-way chain might not be a reliable option. In that context, you might get more satisfaction from one of the damaging PBs, Granir and Pacifal.

Granir does more damage and I'd recommend it over Pacifal for most boss fights, but it requires some aiming and it is entirely possible that your target will skate off to one of your blind spots and laugh at you. Pacifal is more convenient since it covers you all around, if you don't mind hitting for a bit less per target.

Midgul... well, it's basically an alternative to Flozir that is decidedly less awesome. It's not as dependent on being chained since the effect is the same regardless, but your mileage may vary on how useful that effect actually is. FYI, it gives a very potent Shifta and Deband to everyone who chains in it that lasts for about 30 seconds. And it can put Jellen and Zalure on any nearby hostiles. Sometimes. If you're very lucky.

[rhubarbot]

Granir's probably the best PA for all-around use, because it's always useful even when not chained. Thus, you can usually use it twice in a level instead of just saving up for the boss.

Flozir's the most powerful PA, but it's not terribly useful unless you're at least in a 2-chain. It becomes very awesome in a 3-chain and, of course, there's the invincibility from a 4-chain.

Midgul is very fun and can be absolutely devastating in a 4-chain; you'll Over End for like 3000+ damage per hit. The problem is that the effect's duration is very short, and the overall DPS increase from Midgul is about on par with Flozir (because the latter greatly speeds up your PA charge time in addition to boosting your damage).

Pacifal is basically a weaker version of Granir that takes longer to complete. I generally never have any problems hitting everything I want with Granir, so Pacifal's larger area of effect is kind of moot.

[The_Pup]

Flozir: For people who are amused by baby sitting 3 NPCs, like coop multiplayer, use alot of high-damage PAs and normally use PB guage for bosses. Great during rooms with multiple waves of enemies as the effect will last at least two waves at full syncro.

Granir and Pacifal: For those who use the PB guage at least once during the run. Great during rooms with large groups of enemies. Granir for people who fight clusters of enemies or fight in rooms with small maps. Pacifal for large, spread out enemy patterns in large maps.

Midgul: Haven't used it yet.

========

I used to nuke Mothers in ET with Granir chained, since I didn't have to aim it. Now I just use Flozir chained.

[mid Knight]

To me it Flozir for Force and Granir for Hunter and ranger. Sure Flozir 4 chains can give you invincibility and unlimited PP but what good with unlimited PP if the PA your using is bad e.g. spning death. In that case it better to use Granir since you deal more damage then you would being tempory invincible (Ok hunter can make good use with Flozir ie spaming bite stamp or ever end).

[The_Pup]

To me it Flozir for Force and Granir for Hunter and ranger. Sure Flozir 4 chains can give you invincibility and unlimited PP but what good with unlimited PP if the PA your using is bad e.g. spning death. In that case it better to use Granir since you deal more damage then you would being tempory invincible (Ok hunter can make good use with Flozir ie spaming bite stamp or ever end).

Depends on if you bring along NPCs or teammates for the ride. Flozir is the best choice for playing with NPCs or people. Chained Flozir is a wonder with Over End (RAmarl with Hocho). I can singlehandedly beat out chained Granir/Pacifal damage several times over. Imagine a whole group of Over Ends, Celeb Hollow Snipes, etc. You can use Granir/Pacifal to kill enemies every other room (depending on how many PAs your spamming) but in the end, it's the Flozir user who everyone is bowing down to.

Solo play (no NPCs, no Team) then Granir/Pacifal would be better for HU/RA and Flozir for FO. The FO is usually killing grunts quickly from a distance, so Flozir would allow for techspam on big enemies, whereas Granir/Pacifal would end groupings of enemies next to the lone HU/RA, though PA spam might be considered, no invincibility and decreased charge times does cripple alot of PAs in the spam department due to no invincibility to protect from burn (flinches character) or attacks which cancel PA charge.

[jmanx]

Flozir Lets Rangers or hunters hit up to 1k which forces cant really do

and Flozir 3 way chain is still good u just dont get the invinc

[leviayurashyguy]

awwww not a single post for Midgul? you guys are evil =(

anyhoo i love Midgul, it literally doubles my DPS solo and triples it on 4 way chain. if you get that Jellen/Zalure its pretty much a wrap. great for CAST since they don't have Shifta ^-^

also with the DFP bonus my Force can take WAY more hits and not worry much. + i don't cast Deband

i prefer Midgul over Flozir because i get a FAR greater increase in damage and is better for players who aren't PP heavy liek slicers users and mech guns. hell even OE doesn't charge THAT slow to refute an extra boost to its burst damage.

invincibility is useless to those who no how to dodge

[The_Pup]

i prefer Midgul over Flozir because i get a FAR greater increase in damage and is better for players who aren't PP heavy liek slicers users and mech guns. hell even OE doesn't charge THAT slow to refute an extra boost to its burst damage.

With Flozir, if you have Invincibility (4 chain), you have 100% criticals (3 chain), effectively meaning you will do 2x damage. That is in addition to the reduced charge (2 chain) which stacks with unlimited PP (no chain). All members who participate in the chain get these effects.

For DPS, Flozir still wins out over Midgul. As 4 people using strong PAs (Over End, Celeb Hollow Snipe) will be doing 700%*2*4=5600% (rough guesstimation) damage to a single target at best. 3 will be doing 700%*2*3=4200%. A single person with Over End or Celeb Hollow Snipe will be doing 700%*2=1400% damage per charge (as would be the case in single player). 14 attacks, given you have the accuracy to land everything. And the charge time reduction is like a free Compress PA if you don't have one, the difference is dramatic. I don't know if the Flozir charge reduction stacks with Compress PA (I don't bother noticing).

I'm bored... So I'll just do some number crunching...

--------

Definitions:

DPS = Damage/Time

Time = (charge*modifier) + animation
Damage = Attacks*modifier

100% = 1 attack.
250% = 2.5 attacks
750% = 7.5 attacks, Over End max damage

Over End charge = 3.7 seconds
Over End animation = ~1 second

Flozir 2 chain = .50 modifier to charge
Compress PA = .66 modifier to charge (1.00-.33%)

Flozir 3 chain = 2.0 modifier to attacks.

--------

Applied without animation:

Without Flozir, Over End would do 7.5 attacks over 3.7 seconds or 2.0270 attacks per second.
Without Flozir with Compress PA, Over End would do 7.5 attacks over 2.479 seconds or 3.0254 attacks per second.
With 2 chain Flozir, Over End would do 7.5 attacks in 1.85 seconds or 4.0541 attacks per second.
With 3 chain Flozir, Over End would do 15 attacks in 1.85 seconds or 8.1081 attacks per second.

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This is only taking charge times into account and not attack animations, which add ~1 second, so I'll do that math below...

--------

Applied with animation:

Without Flozir: 7.5 attacks, 3.7 charge, 1 second animation: (7.5/(3.7+1)) = 1.5957 attacks per second.
Without Flozir (Compress PA): 7.5 attacks, 2.479 charge, 1 second animation: (7.5/(2.479+1)) = 2.1558 attacks per second
With Flozir (2-chain): 7.5 attacks, 1.85 charge, 1 second animation: (7.5/(1.85+1)) = 2.6316 attacks per second.
With Flozier (3-chain): 15 attacks, 1.85 charge, 1 second animation: (15/(1.85+1)) = 5.2632 attacks per second.

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Charge times:
http://pszero.wikiwiki.jp/?%A5%D5%A5%A9%A5%C8%A5%F3%A5%A2%A1%BC%A5%C4

Charge time modifiers:
http://www.pso-world.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=2603
http://www.pso-world.com/psz-items.php?item=482

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Note how the increase is exponential. You can get off 3 normal sword attacks in less than 1.5 seconds, so Over End by itself, against a single enemy, is actually less efficient than normally attacking with the sword (aside from range, hits against multiple enemies and the ability to ignore walls). Over End would probably make a good opener against multiple enemies or a single large enemy, but not as a main means of attack.

========



invincibility is useless to those who no how to dodge

Correction: Invicibility is useless to those who can't or don't use it. When you have invincibility, you can focus on attacking all out.

Reasoning:

1) Dodging takes away time which could be used for attacking, charging PA, using techs.
2) Invincibility prevents flinching, which stops combos, chains and PA charging.
3) You cannot mistime invincibility like a dodge.

Being able to use a mag with Invincibility at 100% PB guage is great because you can spam PAs and control when you're getting invincibility.

[leviayurashyguy]

oooooooo nice numbers but it still doesn't refute my opinion of Midgul>Flozir

Flozir lasts for 60 secs, are you telling me that in 60 secs you will use more PP than your PP gauge? if you have increased damage, the Foe will prolly die before you burn thro your PP. and then their are fluids. unless your a Force, i see no problem with having a Pallete slot dedicated to using Fluids. using items takes absolutely no cast time, no cool down, no animation and in SH, you will have plenty of money to buy more. in a competent party, a character should use no more than 3 trifluids on a boss, and thats really the benefit of the doubt. Infinate PP does nothing it increasing your damage output

Criticals? the Shifta you get from Midgul will have you doing more damage than your Critical, and there's still a chance for you to crit, doing even more damage. next point <_<

Charge time is a different story. getting out more OE's in a shorter time may lead to higher DPS than the ATP bonus from Shifta. but as a stated, characters that don't use PA's such as slicers users, who do very well against bosses i might add, don't need reduced charge time if they are just gonna spam attack>attack>attack. and as you stated, Sword swings are faster than OE so wouldn't it benefit more to just have higher raw ATP than a faster charge time?

and lastly invincibility, if you've played SH enough, you no enemy patterns and can more accordingly. if you thought that by "dodge" i meant that "evasion" command, i'm sry to misinform you. i meant simply strafing and moving out of line of fire. altho you can use "evasion", this is in few cases where simply moving is not enough. when you charge PA's, you know you're free to move around, so why not do it? when you execute PA's, you are immune to flinching and knockdown. i am not speaking of a noob, im speaking of a competent player who noes enemy patterns and noes that things hurt if they hurt you. its not too hard to simply just "look, thats about to hit me. let me move to the left". Invincibility is overratted and in essence is gateway for players to become lazy and forget how to play the game

offtopic: doesn't Hollow snipe have lower DPS than Mine Sneak? its overall ATP mod is lower and has a longer execution

[shotmother141]

I agree with HeartBreak301

[The_Pup]

oooooooo nice numbers but it still doesn't refute my opinion of Midgul>Flozir

Flozir lasts for 60 secs, are you telling me that in 60 secs you will use more PP than your PP gauge? if you have increased damage, the Foe will prolly die before you burn thro your PP. and then their are fluids. unless your a Force, i see no problem with having a Pallete slot dedicated to using Fluids. using items takes absolutely no cast time, no cool down, no animation and in SH, you will have plenty of money to buy more. in a competent party, a character should use no more than 3 trifluids on a boss, and thats really the benefit of the doubt. Infinate PP does nothing it increasing your damage output

Criticals? the Shifta you get from Midgul will have you doing more damage than your Critical, and there's still a chance for you to crit, doing even more damage. next point <_<

Charge time is a different story. getting out more OE's in a shorter time may lead to higher DPS than the ATP bonus from Shifta. but as a stated, characters that don't use PA's such as slicers users, who do very well against bosses i might add, don't need reduced charge time if they are just gonna spam attack>attack>attack. and as you stated, Sword swings are faster than OE so wouldn't it benefit more to just have higher raw ATP than a faster charge time?

and lastly invincibility, if you've played SH enough, you no enemy patterns and can more accordingly. if you thought that by "dodge" i meant that "evasion" command, i'm sry to misinform you. i meant simply strafing and moving out of line of fire. altho you can use "evasion", this is in few cases where simply moving is not enough. when you charge PA's, you know you're free to move around, so why not do it? when you execute PA's, you are immune to flinching and knockdown. i am not speaking of a noob, im speaking of a competent player who noes enemy patterns and noes that things hurt if they hurt you. its not too hard to simply just "look, thats about to hit me. let me move to the left". Invincibility is overratted and in essence is gateway for players to become lazy and forget how to play the game

offtopic: doesn't Hollow snipe have lower DPS than Mine Sneak? its overall ATP mod is lower and has a longer execution
Against highly mobile enemies such as _____ Mothers Flozir 4-chain is optimal as you won't be getting perfect-world scenarios where you can spam attack. You are also missing the point that Flozir makes Over End a better attack than it is without the PB. If you were buffed with shifta and the enemy zalured by a Force, that would add onto attacks per second and make Flozir an even better option.

When you are charging and are hit with enough damage you will flinch and your PA charge will be reset, as is the case with the Burn status effect. If you are executing a PA, you are not immune to damage and can be killed when your PA animation running.

I did mean the dodge palette action, however if you're positioning yourself defensively (aside from dodging) then all 3 points still apply. Positioning correctly takes time away from attacking, does not prevent flinching/knockdowns and positioning can be incorrect (human error, camera, two Arks each on the opposite side of the map). Positioning is an art, not a science. Invincibility is a fact, which lasts for a limited time, that removes all technical aspects of defense to focus on simply killing.

On Celeb Hollow Snipe, I just wanted a comparable, straightforward Over End substitute against a single target because both are ranged attacks with high hit modifier and little fear of retaliation.

Invincibility makes players lazy? That's like saying using buffs/debuffs makes players lazy. Invincibility does not make players lazy. I have a viable tool in my inventory and I am going to use it. It's called playing smart. With Flozir invincibility, the whole party gets 40 seconds to worry about pure DPS (enough to finish off a boss). With mag nature invincibility, you have 15 seconds to worry about pure DPS, however you can control when you get invincibility through the controlled use of PAs. Noone can rely on invincibility 100% of the time, but they can control it to activate it when they need it most (if you want to see this in action in a different game, the Cherry System in Touhou 7: Perfect Cherry Blossom would be comparable).

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Perfect_Cherry_Blossom:_Gameplay

[leviayurashyguy]

soooooo i speak of competent players and you bring up Kai.... fantastic. i did mention that Midgul's Shifta is significantlybetter than a Forces and by choosing Flozir over Midgul you miss out on a considerable increase to your ATP/MST. i guess i should note that CAST don't have Shifta offline and Midgul is ever greater Shifta than Kai's

um since when did my Hunter make a flinch animation that cancel's my charge? never i say. i only lose my charge when i'm knockdown, ONLY. Burn "ticks" will not cancel my charge but will merely bug me as i release my Bite Stamp or similiar.

if not moving isn't considered laziness, i don't no what it. positioning is an art and doesn't magically pop on the screen, you have to move. if you can move to position your attacks, then you can evade flowers, fire balls, breath weapon, kill clouds, magic missiles..... well maybe not magic missiles. this should be basic tactic for a competent player who has work their way thro both Normal and Hard Modes as im sure smart players no how to use the D-Pad

Midgul is an irreplaceable buff/debuff that no class in the game can do it and every class benefits from it. Flozir gives you PP which is useless for the the 60 secs Flozir lasts, Crit which is useless for those who have Midgul, Fast Charge which is useless for slicer and other competent builds that don't rely on PA spam, and invincibility which to those who no how to use the move, is more or less a show case status of laziness.

im not getting how Touhou relates to PSZ but oh well

[The_Pup]

soooooo i speak of competent players and you bring up Kai.... fantastic. i did mention that Midgul's Shifta is significantlybetter than a Forces and by choosing Flozir over Midgul you miss out on a considerable increase to your ATP/MST. i guess i should note that CAST don't have Shifta offline and Midgul is ever greater Shifta than Kai's

um since when did my Hunter make a flinch animation that cancel's my charge? never i say. i only lose my charge when i'm knockdown, ONLY. Burn "ticks" will not cancel my charge but will merely bug me as i release my Bite Stamp or similiar.

if not moving isn't considered laziness, i don't no what it. positioning is an art and doesn't magically pop on the screen, you have to move. if you can move to position your attacks, then you can evade flowers, fire balls, breath weapon, kill clouds, magic missiles..... well maybe not magic missiles. this should be basic tactic for a competent player who has work their way thro both Normal and Hard Modes as im sure smart players no how to use the D-Pad

Midgul is an irreplaceable buff/debuff that no class in the game can do it and every class benefits from it. Flozir gives you PP which is useless for the the 60 secs Flozir lasts, Crit which is useless for those who have Midgul, Fast Charge which is useless for slicer and other competent builds that don't rely on PA spam, and invincibility which to those who no how to use the move, is more or less a show case status of laziness.

im not getting how Touhou relates to PSZ but oh well

You're starting to ignore everything in that post. I didn't bring up Kai (repeat: I DIDN'T BRING UP KAI). I didn't say I don't move. I did not say anything about builds who don't PA spam (who also don't get to activate their PB as often).

Midgul does not stack and does not give 100% criticals. Flozir's 100% criticals and reduced PA charge stack with force shifta/zalure to give out more damage on a more consistant basis than midgul with natural criticals.

You're also saying lazy = bad which isn't. And using invincibility to blitz is not laziness. It is smart and requires more work than you think (manipulating PB guage to get mag invincibility while still keeping Flozir at the end). By your definition of laziness (ie avoiding damage through not being able to be hit, staying in one place to do alot of damage) slicer users, gun users, bite stamp users, non-mele forces in general, EVA HUneys, and invincible mele/PA spam (through Flozir or mag invincibility) are all lazy. Anything that isn't getting in and getting hit is lazy by your standards.

You also assume that lazy players don't fight correctly or are able to fight at all. Which is wrong. They just found a low-stress or better alternative. I can roll through Ark missiles. I can run around Ark missiles. But before either of those I would just pull out a shield and walk over to an Ark and start beating down on it (which I did before I got impatient/"lazy" and started rolling through missiles).

Example 1: I can fight Mother Trinity just by standing on her right side with a gun attacking normally or with PAs, take no damage without using invincibility because her swipe and headbutt attacks do not touch that area. I positioned myself so I can attack her with impunity, the only attacks which could hit me would be her laser and whatever chess piece would be on the board. I do not need to heal as much as someone attempting a mele assault. If I did use Flozir invincibility, I could just plop myself anyplace in front of Mother Trinity and end the fight quickly with Over End. By your standards, I am lazy either way even if I actively contribute to a fight and end it quickly.

Example 2: Shrines is made easier due to there being gaps long enough to prevent enemies from bringing themselves into attack range. I can't attack with mele weapons for obvious reasons, and guns suffer a penalty when attacking through obstacles. Several physical PAs, notably Over End, can reach over those gaps and hit 100% whereas guns are barely able to hit and mele weapons can't connect at all.

Example 3: Working off of Example 2 I can fight enemies that don't have ranged attacks from behind corners using normal mele attacks and PAs while being out of harms way with the correct weapon.

I also didn't say anything about not moving. I said invincibility removes defensive positioning from the equation, which means I can move anywhere I want to and not worry about being hit. I want to be near the enemy to land my attacks on them.

And re-read the last paragraph. PB guage invincibility/buffs from mags <-> Cherry system. Similar concepts. They both reward the player with extra protection for reaching certain milestones, but to be used effectively they require a some knowlege of the system and some management to time them correctly to gain their maximum effect. The only major difference being that the Cherry System converts into points (and thus extra lives) when the protection wasn't used and the PB guage minigame would be wasted if the protection wasn't used and would need to be reset (through the use of PB, death or mag equip).