Class balance?

[Purple Reign]

Okay so I played GC PSO Ep 1 and 2, and after playing a hunter to almost 100, while my friends each had a Ranger and Force...

we came to the obvious conclusion (at least to us) that forces are simply superior in every way...

They can heal faster than anyone, and can spam techniques so fast that they can destroy an entire room in seconds without getting surrounded or killed.

I had a real hard time with my hunter as he could get surrounded easy, even with AoE based weapons.

Is this common knowledge? Or have things changed in BB, or do things even out in the higher levels?

Sorry if this seems like a silly thread.

[16085k]

I think the general opinion is that rangers are the most overpowered. Once you get farther into the game, forces' damage spells aren't very useful in multiplayer, and they have the lowest ata and atp. They are still very useful though (mainly because of support). Hunters are generally seen as the worst (and by me as well). HUcast does have very high atp, but needs very hard to obtain gear to really be "effective." HUmar has barely more atp than RAcast, and with his lower ata and generally worse weapon selection, is pretty "useless." It's really hard to say that HUcaseal isn't an inferior RAcast, and HUnewearl's atp is even worse than RAmar's. In terms of rangers, RAmarl has her spells to support her in solo, RAcast has his godly atp, RAmar has some spells too, best ata, and still high atp. RAcaseal got kind of shafted in terms of rangers, I still like her though. In the end though it's not really as big of a deal as some people make it out to be. You can still do fine as any character.

[Purple Reign]

I think the general opinion is that rangers are the most overpowered. Once you get farther into the game, forces' damage spells aren't very in multiplayer, and they have the lowest ata and atp. They are still very useful though. Hunters are generally seen as the worst (and by me as well). HUcast does have very high atp, but needs very hard to obtain gear to really be "effective." HUmar has barely more atp than RAcast, and with his lower ata and generally worse weapon selection, is pretty "useless." It's really hard to say that HUcaseal isn't an inferior RAcast, and HUnewearl's atp is even worse than RAmar's. In terms of rangers, RAmarl has her spells to support her in solo, RAcast has his godly atp, RAmar has some spells too, best ata, and still high atp. RAcaseal got kind of shafted in terms of rangers, I still like her though. In the end though it's not really as big of a deal as some people make it out to be. You can still do fine as any character.

Force's techniques aren't as useful later into the game? At what point does this happen? because my friend had a 120-something FOnewm and wrecked every living thing.

We were level 100 and 120 (I was hunter and he was Force) and he didn't even need me around, he could solo the entire room himself before I even got the time to take out a few mobs. So when does this start to shift? In favor for the ranger...etc.

[Splash]

When you start playing Ultimate difficulty, you'll find out that Forces are not going to do much. The resistance the monsters build up on Ultimate causes techniques to do very low damage. Since you two are higher than level 80, I would assume you have been playing Ultimate difficulty already.

[Sienna]

Play Ep 2 and watch the fonewm cry.

[psofan219]

Classes are so out of balance in PSO in my opinion. Rangers possess ATP amounts that they shouldn't even have. I'm not saying that Rangers should do God-awful damage amounts, I'm just saying that they shouldn't be overpowering Hunters as bad as they are. RAcast vs. HUcast = HUcast crying in utter defeat, because the RAcast has the devastating Iron Faust at his disposal. I've seen that thing score 1500's and 2k damage like mad, wrecking entire mobs in just two shots. On top of that, he has access to Freeze Traps, immobilizing any threat long enough for him to kill it, and he also has access to Frozen Shooter/Snow Queen, both of which are like free Freeze Traps. Well, all Rangers have access to FS/SQ, but in the RAcasts hands are they the most devastating in terms of damage. Add on top of this further still, weapons like SN, and the RAcast is virutally unstoppable. So Rangers are definately the most broken and overpowered class in the game. Oh, another gun I forgot: Heaven Striker. So, RAcast is probably the best character in the game due to these factors:
Insane ATP, HP, and DFP, allowing him to just take crap and dish it back
Iron Faust, a gun that strikes fear into anything
FS/SQ, free Freeze Traps
SN, unparalelled mob control
Confusion Traps, to make a mob beat itself up while he blows them apart with Iron Faust
Give him EDK boosting items, and you really don't need to worry about anything other than Meri-creature mobs

So yeah... RAcasts... and Rangers in general... have the most advantages by far. No other class comes close to their abilities.

....Ranger lovers, get your shotguns ready XD

[Splash]

Classes are so out of balance in PSO in my opinion. Rangers possess ATP amounts that they shouldn't even have. I'm not saying that Rangers should do God-awful damage amounts, I'm just saying that they shouldn't be overpowering Hunters as bad as they are. RAcast vs. HUcast = HUcast crying in utter defeat, because the RAcast has the devastating Iron Faust at his disposal. I've seen that thing score 1500's and 2k damage like mad, wrecking entire mobs in just two shots. On top of that, he has access to Freeze Traps, immobilizing any threat long enough for him to kill it, and he also has access to Frozen Shooter/Snow Queen, both of which are like free Freeze Traps. Well, all Rangers have access to FS/SQ, but in the RAcasts hands are they the most devastating in terms of damage. Add on top of this further still, weapons like SN, and the RAcast is virutally unstoppable. So Rangers are definately the most broken and overpowered class in the game. Oh, another gun I forgot: Heaven Striker. So, RAcast is probably the best character in the game due to these factors:
Insane ATP, HP, and DFP, allowing him to just take crap and dish it back
Iron Faust, a gun that strikes fear into anything
FS/SQ, free Freeze Traps
SN, unparalelled mob control
Confusion Traps, to make a mob beat itself up while he blows them apart with Iron Faust
Give him EDK boosting items, and you really don't need to worry about anything other than Meri-creature mobs

So yeah... RAcasts... and Rangers in general... have the most advantages by far. No other class comes close to their abilities.

....Ranger lovers, get your shotguns ready XD

tl;dr: BB is broken like crazy now.


Luckily GC is not the same. Though Rangers still dominate.

[Red Ring]

RAcaseal player here. I love her high defense with blackhound and standstill shield. Easy rares to find but ungodly defense with that. Hella weak resistance though but still a very good build for a average player. Then get yourself some of the uber ranger rares like panzer faust, heaven striker, excal, and you're all set. Then you can go for hell needle v502 an adept and of course cent/ablities. Pretty sure all people go for this stuff if they want to build most powerful character in game. Luckily it's also my favorite class. Not saying RAcaseal is most powerful but damn well good enough. Go for racast if you want power.

THe ability to use panzer faust alone makes ramarl and ramar a stupid choice because then the best you can use is a fail charge baranz launcher instead.

[psofan219]

tl;dr: BB is broken like crazy now.


Luckily GC is not the same. Though Rangers still dominate.

Yes, I agree. Although Rangers still have the upper hand on GC, weapons like Iron Faust are kept how they should be: one shot, instead of a three-shot combo, and there's no 15-shot weapons either (L&K38 Combat).


panzer faust, heaven striker, excal, hell needle v502

And it's items like these that make BB so stupidly easy. Iron Faust being able to combo now, as I said in my prior post, can wreck entire mobs in two-four shots depending on the RAcast ATP (because each time you see IF, it's more-than-likely gonna be on a RAcast). Heaven Strikers special is auto-target, and although it's nice, it too is broken. Rifle range (normal and hard attacks) and a special that can pick off enemies in a 180 degree radius and deal well over 1k worth of damage. Excal... Excal needs to go die in a fire. It's overrated, overused, looks retarded, I just can't stand it. Everyone seems to be using it lately. Hell Needle's a cheap weapon to use unless you're playing solo because you can just kill things before anyone else can hit them, making it no fun for anyone else if they can't keep up. V502 I don't have much to complain about other than that it boosts the percentage Hell weapons work to 200% of the usual, making Hell too powerful.

The only thing that really gives people any trouble at all is Phantasmal World 4. Anything else is a joke if you're using broken-tier equips.

[16085k]

I don't think iron faust comboing is really that broken. It still usually does less damage than charge arms or baranz launcher. And then there are sacrificial needles with their high rate of fire and still high damage. Iron faust is utterly worthless when it can't combo.

[DC_PLAYER]

Forces have utility, have 100 % acuracy with the techs, they have wide and long range techs.

I mean, take razonde for example, never misses, attacks at 360º and has a good range, who doesn't want that.
To compensate this forces are rather fragile, a small wind knocks them out and techs do low damage on ultimate.

[Purple Reign]

Classes are so out of balance in PSO in my opinion. Rangers possess ATP amounts that they shouldn't even have. I'm not saying that Rangers should do God-awful damage amounts, I'm just saying that they shouldn't be overpowering Hunters as bad as they are. RAcast vs. HUcast = HUcast crying in utter defeat, because the RAcast has the devastating Iron Faust at his disposal. I've seen that thing score 1500's and 2k damage like mad, wrecking entire mobs in just two shots. On top of that, he has access to Freeze Traps, immobilizing any threat long enough for him to kill it, and he also has access to Frozen Shooter/Snow Queen, both of which are like free Freeze Traps. Well, all Rangers have access to FS/SQ, but in the RAcasts hands are they the most devastating in terms of damage. Add on top of this further still, weapons like SN, and the RAcast is virutally unstoppable. So Rangers are definately the most broken and overpowered class in the game. Oh, another gun I forgot: Heaven Striker. So, RAcast is probably the best character in the game due to these factors:
Insane ATP, HP, and DFP, allowing him to just take crap and dish it back
Iron Faust, a gun that strikes fear into anything
FS/SQ, free Freeze Traps
SN, unparalelled mob control
Confusion Traps, to make a mob beat itself up while he blows them apart with Iron Faust
Give him EDK boosting items, and you really don't need to worry about anything other than Meri-creature mobs

So yeah... RAcasts... and Rangers in general... have the most advantages by far. No other class comes close to their abilities.

....Ranger lovers, get your shotguns ready XD


How about RAmar? Do they stand up particularly strong as well? Or do RAcast just wreck them?

I thought RAmar would be good because they have access to things like S/D and Resta/Anti ...

Let me know what you think


Forces have utility, have 100 % acuracy with the techs, they have wide and long range techs.

I mean, take razonde for example, never misses, attacks at 360º and has a good range, who doesn't want that.
To compensate this forces are rather fragile, a small wind knocks them out and techs do low damage on ultimate.

I've seen my friend's FOnewm wreck ultimate, with ease. Whereas my hunter struggled

[Splash]

I don't think iron faust comboing is really that broken. It still usually does less damage than charge arms or baranz launcher. And then there are sacrificial needles with their high rate of fire and still high damage. Iron faust is utterly worthless when it can't combo.

No duh it's useless when it can't combo. But since it can in BB, its now pulverizing everything. I highly doubt Baranz Launcher or Charge Arms are doing more damage, assuming the weapons have the percents on it. At minimum, it should be equal.


I've seen my friend's FOnewm wreck ultimate, with ease. Whereas my hunter struggled
Doing Forest or Temple over and over again is not "wrecking", if you are wondering.

[Purple Reign]

No duh it's useless when it can't combo. But since it can in BB, its now pulverizing everything. I highly doubt Baranz Launcher or Charge Arms are doing more damage, assuming the weapons have the percents on it. At minimum, it should be equal.


Doing Forest or Temple over and over again is not "wrecking", if you are wondering.


Hey handled Mines and Ruins easily as well. I was so convinced that Forces were better after seeing him do it, that I immediately retired my hunter and rolled a FOnewm

[psofan219]

How about RAmar? Do they stand up particularly strong as well? Or do RAcast just wreck them?

I thought RAmar would be good because they have access to things like S/D and Resta/Anti ...

Unfortunately, tech use, highest ATA of all, and an uncut Demons special are the only things I can think of off the top of my head that they have on a RAcast.

[Purple Reign]

Unfortunately, tech use, highest ATA of all, and an uncut Demons special are the only things I can think of off the top of my head that they have on a RAcast.

Ah yes, those I am aware of, but in terms of playing a good class, does RAmar still have big advantages like RAcast? Or is RAcast SIGNIFICANTLY better?

[DC_PLAYER]

Ramar has shifta and deband and can use techs for utility (zonde for instant aim to the closest enemy, resta to save mates,....)
Also has a tremendous ATA

If you think forces are that good, then try one out, they have bad qualities, but if you enjoy button smash then a force is for you.

[Purple Reign]

Ramar has shifta and deband and can use techs for utility (zonde for instant aim to the closest enemy, resta to save mates,....)
Also has a tremendous ATA

If you think forces are that good, then try one out, they have bad qualities, but if you enjoy button smash then a force is for you.

Yea I think I would prefer RAmar to RAcast, because of the utility.

I'm not suggesting Forces are better, I'm just trying to understand. All this type I thought they were far superior. Why is it that my friend was able to destroy all of ultimate ep 1 and 2 at lvl 120 something without the slightest sign of problem?

Is the experience different on GC and PSO:BB? Or am I missing something

[Splash]

Hey handled Mines and Ruins easily as well.
=P Just making sure.



I'm not suggesting Forces are better, I'm just trying to understand. All this type I thought they were far superior. Why is it that my friend was able to destroy all of ultimate ep 1 and 2 at lvl 120 something without the slightest sign of problem?

Stats, play style, experience using character, etc. There could be numerous reasons why.

Bottom line is, the person could genuinely handle the areas "without the slightest sign of problems" but it could also be your mind just saying that. In short, you just got to get better with your own character.

[steaIth]

i am hoping to get PSOBB help from my thread, but if i get it, i will make a HUmar, and a RAcaseal/mar/marl so i can have a ranger, but not as cheap as a RAcast.

[psofan219]

Basically in terms of abilites/accessible weaponry, the Rangers fall something like this:
RAcast > RAcaseal > RAmarl > RAmar

RAcast: As it's been stated in this thread already, just scroll up
RAcaseal: Basically the same reasons, except she doesn't possess as high ATP as the RAcast, but does have the best Defence out of all characters
RAmarl: LV20 techs combined with Ranger weapons make her very easy to use. The techniques she can use are equal to that of HUnewearls
RAmar: Less tech usage, but has the most ATA, so he's able to hit most often.

Again, that order's done mostly by abilities/equippable weapons that are at their disposal. My personal preference of them is:
RAcaseal = RAmarl > RAcast > RAmar

[Purple Reign]

Thanks for all the input on Rangers!

I'm still not sure if I can make up my mind. Personally I like the look better of RAmar over RAcast. I know that's a silly thing to prioritize, but if I'm going to be playing the character a lot, I want them to look cool :)

So now it's deciding whether I want to play

RAmar
FOmar
Fonewm

lol

I am so torn. F my life lol.

[Kent]

There are a few different things contributing to the balance issues regarding Rangers. For one, the ATA requirements on weapons are too easy to meet, simply because of how the stat scales... It's a pretty big problem when people are able to use rather high-level rare weapons simply because they managed to focus everything they could into one low-scale stat (this is, however, an overall problem with the game - it's just an exaggerated one with Rangers).

The other really big issue is how one has to go about playing a Ranger "effectively." That is, it pretty much requires the absolute least amount of effort to be effective with one, because of the focus on ranged combat and abusing doorways.

Hunters, for example, need a much more intimate knowledge of how combat works in the game - things like which kinds of combos to use when (based on not only spacing, but number of enemies, what kinds of enemies, equipped weapon type, etc.), how to properly manual-dodge attacks in close range combat, and how to manage enemies and control space properly.

Rangers? PEW PEW PEW. PEW PEW PEW. PEW PEW PEW. Enemy getting close? Step into the hallway. Repeat ad nauseum (this is a bit simplified, but you catch my drift). Rangers should, ideally, be intelligent enough to use their attacks selectively, so as to flinch enemies that are encroaching on other allies (I believe this was the original design intention in PSOv1, where they were almost useless as far as pure damage numbers).

Generally-speaking, a Hunter should have the enemies coming after himself instead of the Forces and Rangers. The Rangers should be dealing damage, but prioritizing interrupting enemy attacks on the people in close range - which is generally the only way they'll ever get into a group for Challenge Mode without being part of a group of friends in the first place.

There are a number of things that could be done to improve the balance of Rangers - most notably, things like re-adjusting the stats (and general effectiveness) of all different kinds of ranged weaponry, and reducing the overall ATP and defensive stats for Rangers across the board.

The Ranger with the highest ATP potential should still be outclassed in pure strength by the Hunter with the lowest max potential ATP - just like with Forces and MST vs. other classes, as with Rangers and ATA vs. other classes.

The reason ATP is such a balance issue with Rangers is really because of the fact that Rangers generally just need to be facing the direction of the enemy in order to deal damage. Being that they generally attack from outside the effective ranges of enemies, this means that they have to spend less time actively evading most enemy attacks, and are able to deal a relatively-constant stream of damage. The problem here, is that the "bursty" nature of melee damage (due to them being directly-engaged with the enemies, rather than attacking from afar) is too low in comparison to the damage done by Rangers on a hit-by-hit basis, and thus, resulting in a staggering differential in damage-over-time.

[Splash]

Rangers? PEW PEW PEW. PEW PEW PEW. PEW PEW PEW. Enemy getting close? Step into the hallway. Repeat ad nauseum (this is a bit simplified, but you catch my drift). Rangers should, ideally, be intelligent enough to use their attacks selectively, so as to flinch enemies that are encroaching on other allies (I believe this was the original design intention in PSOv1, where they were almost useless as far as pure damage numbers).
Not valid reasoning because Hunters could do the same thing too and stand from the doorway and shoot. The difference is that Ranger has rifles and higher ATA, but that's irrelevant if you are going to stand from the doorway and shoot.


The Ranger with the highest ATP potential should still be outclassed in pure strength by the Hunter with the lowest max potential ATP - just like with Forces and MST vs. other classes, as with Rangers and ATA vs. other classes.
I don't disagree with this. This is exactly why RAcast is the cheapest class of all, most definitely so in teams.

[psofan219]

Thanks for all the input on Rangers!

I'm still not sure if I can make up my mind. Personally I like the look better of RAmar over RAcast. I know that's a silly thing to prioritize, but if I'm going to be playing the character a lot, I want them to look cool :)

So now it's deciding whether I want to play

RAmar
FOmar
Fonewm

lol

I am so torn. F my life lol.

That's what it's all about; preference. Just because a character has high stats doesn't mean you should create it and play as it. A character you like the appearance of will go farther versus a character you don't like the appearance of.

[Purple Reign]

Wow thanks for all the details here!!!!! Incredible information!

and Psofan has helped me narrow down my choices by pure logic to

FOmar

and

RAmar

:)

My friend is probably going to roll another FOnewm, would it be better for me to play a RAmar, that way we don't compete for gear?

[psofan219]

Generally, as a Force, you won't be really using weapons all too often, and even less so on a FOnewm. FOmars are the hybrid Force; they can cast techs and go head-to-head easier than any other Force, not to mention they also have the fastest unarmed tech casting time. So really, as a team of two Forces, there really shouldn't be all that much competition for gear, as the shops can supply you with the most basic of Force equips. Going as a Ranger/Force team isn't a bad idea either, and it'll be easier for both of you to manage your character financially (assuming that these characters are going to be starting off on LV1 with nothing handed down to them; two fresh Forces working together are going to run into money troubles fairly quick), since as a RAmar, the only thing you need to worry about is monomate and you shouldn't even be getting hit enough for that to be an issue, so more money to the Force for those expensive fluids :-P

[Purple Reign]

Generally, as a Force, you won't be really using weapons all too often, and even less so on a FOnewm. FOmars are the hybrid Force; they can cast techs and go head-to-head easier than any other Force, not to mention they also have the fastest unarmed tech casting time. So really, as a team of two Forces, there really shouldn't be all that much competition for gear, as the shops can supply you with the most basic of Force equips. Going as a Ranger/Force team isn't a bad idea either, and it'll be easier for both of you to manage your character financially (assuming that these characters are going to be starting off on LV1 with nothing handed down to them; two fresh Forces working together are going to run into money troubles fairly quick), since as a RAmar, the only thing you need to worry about is monomate and you shouldn't even be getting hit enough for that to be an issue, so more money to the Force for those expensive fluids :-P


good points! wow the unarmed tech casting speed is faster on a FOmar? No way! I saw my friend do it as a FOnewm, and I was like holy !@$#$, I can't believe people can cast faster than that.

Is unarmed tech-casting for a force usually a better strategy then getting the bonuses from the item and casting a little slower?

yea fluids are definitely more of a financial stress than mates. Ideally obviously it would make sense for one of us to role a hunter to "tank" , but from everyone's opinions hunters are pretty garbage overall.

So I'm down to rolling a FOmar or a RAmar still.

If I role a FOmar, you've mentioned that I can melee decently well, I've seen guides around Melee Forces...is that an effective character? Or just fun to do? I mean I could see how to do it, I would jsut build 2 mags, one for ATP/DFP, and the other for my tech casting.

Thoughts?

[psofan219]

I personally never used a hybrid Force, so I can't give much insight as to how they work. I just know that the FOmar was designed to be a hybrid figher. And yes, the FOmar unarmed tech casting speed is indeed faster. As for if unarmed tech casting is a better strategy, I'm going to say yes on a FOmar. His strongest techniques are Gifoie, Gizonde, and Gibarta. Gifoie has amazing potential if you know when Foie-weak enemies are coming. Gizonde can be cast so fast that it can practically lock down enemies, making it a very useful technique, maybe more so than Rafoie. This is especially true for male Force characters, due to their faster tech casting animation versus females. Gibarta... Gibarta is rather inferior in the techniques line. You're better off using Rabarta. Rabarta's faster and covers a 360 degree area. If you were on BB, you would have access to a unit called V801 which further increases tech casting speed. This basically covers what I know about a FOmar.

Now for what I know about RAmars. They have the highest ATA potential of any character, meaning they can hit most often and rely on special attacks of weapons early on as well. Being human, they also have access to techniques, allowing them to cast Shifta/Deband, Resta, Anti, and any other techniques you may find useful (probably only Rabarta as a RAmar). I'm sure I don't need to tell you how useful Shifta and Deband is, so being able to cast it at any given moment is very beneficial... That about does it for all I know about RAmars XD I never really played as one because I didn't like their uniform.

[Kent]

If you're going to play a FOmar, you should prioritize support techniques and Gi-level attack techniques (once you have the TP pool available to support using them the most). The amount of difference that high-level Shifta, Deband, Jellen and Zalure can make is pretty extreme (for instance, reducing an attack that would take out half your HP to doing single-digits of damage in Ultimate mode).

The real attraction of playing a FOmar isn't to just cast techniques at everything for all of your damage, but it's to put your overall stat advantage to good use. With the right equipement and a proper MAG, it's actually very viable to literally just do everything. It's the way the character was meant to be played, and it's my personal favorite class to play in the game because of it. The fact that the Gi-level techniques are the most functionally-diverse level of techniques makes things just a lot more interesting to play, since the FOmar gets a 30% damage bonus to those (as well as Grants).

So really, the class is about realizing every facet of the character and utilizing all of them properly.

[LK1721]

For the most part, FO classes aren't as god awfully powerful in ULTIMATE from my experience. RAngers are overpowered, they deal more damage than they should and ATA requirements are easy to meet on the weapons. Plus, some of the weapons are just bogus and make the balance even worse.

HUnters are good if you know how to use them effectively. Learning how to dodge and how to utilize traps [If you have them] can make them formidable.

Dunno about using a FOrce, never played one past level 30.

Though, In my opinion it's just preference on what you like to play. :D
*hugs RAmarl and HUcaseal*