Any insight on being a force?

[OriginalB]

So as long as I've played PSU, PSP1, and now the demo of PSP2 I've never really got into the force style class. I always see them do really well, and I've heard they're really powerful. So I created one about an hour and a half ago on the demo for PSP2 and to be honest it seems like it starts the slowest in comparison to the other 3 classes. Foie hits for like 30 while if I bring out a sword on the same character my PA hits 22, 4 times.

I've been combo'ing my techs, and that's pretty cool cause they go faster obviously but even then it doesn't seem like I'm doing much DPS.

What are some of the better techs to focus on in order to make things go faster? I feel very sluggish when soloing by comparison to the other classes.

I've been using Barta, Foie, Rafoie, Grants (which seems like a good tech), I don't much like Rabarta its too slow. Are there any really good nuke-style attacks?

[Kayest]

For the demo right now, most people seem to be using the Plantain Leaf rod. Get one of those and slap some Earth magic on it. My Force with Shifta cast on him can waltz through Plains Overlord hurling Digas around for about 180-240 damage apiece...enough to 1 hit most of the stuff there. Now full game...that's a slightly different story...

[Shakuri]

Foie shouldn't be doing 30 damage. Unless you're using a Tech Mag, in which case stop it. Tech mags are only useful for buffing and debuffing nowadays, and even then Wands/Rods do that better due to being able to combo spam debuffs and make them stick easier.

Rabarta is one of the best techs in the game, easily. At least once you get it to 11+ and especially at 21+. The knockdown to a group of enemies from a distance is amazing. And if you time it right, you can lock them to the ground, and loop them to death.

Make sure you're using proper elements, fire techs against ice enemies and vice versa, lightning against earth and vice versa, and light against darkness..vice versa.

One key thing new Forces don't know about in this game is, that the techs you have set to the Square button are meant to build chains, and the ones on your Triangle button are meant to break them. Only set techs to Triangle that you want to do massive damage or finish enemies off with.

The demo gives you a very limited selection of techs and gives Forces a craptastic impression anyway. Doesn't help that people try to play it as purely Teching only. Get some Twin Daggers/Twin Sabers/Twin Claws, and Spears for melee. Melee is very important for a variety of reasons.

1. Regaining PP.
2. Building chain faster against a single large enemy.
3. Killing off foes that come in a small number (2 enemies in a wide open space, why waste time casting techs when you can slash and stab them to death?)
4. Some enemies are tech resistant (Hi Neudaiz)

This post (a bit of a long one) has some decent information on the Force class and how it should be played http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2527428&postcount=11

You've gotta mix it up, otherwise you'll have a rough time. Good luck in the full game.

[Nurarihyon]

<.< sorry but neglect most of the advice before.
1) Use diga, Radiga except on monsters with same element.
The whole thing about elements yes is true however diga,radiga give the most outstanding damage even without the proper elemental damage. You will find that you take more of diga and radiga than ice vs fire, fire vs ice, dark vs light, etc. Simply put Diga is pure raw physical damage where as the others are meant for status effects mostly, it's just a plus that Diga can also confuse though.

2.) When retail comes out use a wand, R mag combo. (Shotgun preferably). This will help you take massive damage with or without chains.

3.) If you want to build chains get a nice handgun build the chain switch weapons then cast radiga for killoff, way faster than using diga to build a chain. Diga's main use in this game is to use to knockback smaller monsters or spam on big mobs so they cant move allowing other melee classes that do not use guns to raise the chains while doing considerable damage.

Now forces PP regen is yes considerable slow especially when using a two handed rod.
Most people say it's too slow but do not know how to bypass the slow regen.
Here's how you do it.

1) Equip your rod to either the first or last slot of your equips.
2) Switch from the last or first slot that you have it set on to - - (Last or first slot makes it faster for quick switch)
3) when you go to - - it unequips weapon and makes your pp regen at its normal rate without the big cooldown, simply switch back and it still regens fast while you have your rod equipped.
However when you use the rod again it will regen slow but its a quick tip to help you to regen while running to new areas after you cleared one etc. You dont have to keep it unequipped, just un-equip then switch back immediately.

[Shakuri]

Firstly, knocking small, single enemies back is absolutely stupid. And using Diga to BUILD chains is even worse. Nosdiga is far superior to Diga for building chains for various reasons.

1. It doesn't send the enemy away.
2. It knocks the enemy UP, so teammates can still hit it.
3. It has Stun probability.
4. Diga is far superior as a Finisher, not a chain builder. Diga on Square is the biggest waste of a slot in the game. Aside from Gifoie, on anything.
5. It increases the chain by 3 each use.

Diga's main use is to finish off enemies after getting a correct chain. That's all Diga is and should be used for.

Secondly, Radiga, while having maybe a 10% edge as a far as Ra Tech points go. Is foolish to use against enemies of the same element. If you have proper element equipment, Radiga will not be doing higher damage than your other Ra Techs provided they're of the same level. If you're using Radiga on a 34% Ice Rod instead of Rabarta, you're doing it wrong. All wrong.

Thirdly, R-Mags don't do "massive damage" in this game, even with the Tenora brands. They're good for building chains while you try to tag an enemy with Zalure using wands, that's about it. Otherwise, you could be making yourself useful doing pretty much anything else.

[OriginalB]

anyone want to explain to me what elemental percentages mean for techs in this game? I asked this question in the "ask a question" thread too.

[Nurarihyon]

...Lol, i have played force forever and always use the tactics and work no probabilities.
Knocking back enemies is not stupid if you are soloing or people are surrounded with mobs getting hit from all sides. It does not knock the enemy up, it knocks them back.
(Diga is not absolute dance xD)

Noone said anything about using diga/radiga for same element, re read the post. And yes it will still do higher even without non elemental damage unless you have the same element as you are using on your weapon with a 40%+ increase. R mags do, I can go on PSU and PSP1 and JPPSP2 and kill bosses solo in less than 30 secs. In PSP1 i can kill Helga in all forms in less than a minute. I take more damage than dark archer, check his youtube videos and see pro forces in work.

I can take you to De Ragan and take more damage with diga/radiga than i will with the same lvl barta/rabarta if you want.

And diga as a Finisher, wow, that's funny. Yeah sure it may be good with an opponent that has one hit area. But mobs with multiple Hit Areas Radiga would own diga.
Me and Oroboro killed De Ragan in 10 secs flat after he build the chain to 30. Ownage. 700+ damage on all 7+ Hit areas x 3 from combo. 14,700+ damage in 3 combo hits.

[Shakuri]

...Lol, i have played force forever and always use the tactics and work no probabilities.
Knocking back enemies is not stupid if you are soloing or people are surrounded with mobs getting hit from all sides. It does not knock the enemy up, it knocks them back.

Noone said anything about using diga/radiga for same element, re read the post. And yes it will still do higher even without non elemental damage unless you have the same element as you are using on your weapon with a 40%+ increase. R mags do, I can go on PSU and PSP1 and JPPSP2 and kill bosses solo in less than 30 secs. In PSP1 i can kill Helga in all forms in less than a minute. I take more damage than dark archer, check his youtube videos and see pro forces in work.

Knocking back single enemies, in a group of them, especially while solo is stupid, considering Forces have access to Techs that can hit 5+ enemies and keep them pinned to the ground unable to do anything at all. And I didn't say Diga knocks them up, I said Nosdiga does. Which makes it about 20 times better already for building chains against single targets with just that.

Clearly you don't know what you're talking about so it really isn't worth debating. Especially if you start mentioning games that aren't even relevant to the discussion.

You claim to be a "pro" Force, yet don't even realize that it would take a pretty low % proper element Rod to deal more damage than Radiga. Also, "Pro's" don't use Neutral weapons. Pro's use proper elements for maximum damage, also high end Force gear when extended gives you the option of increasing elemental powers of your choice, its pretty useless on a Neutral weapon obviously.

Oh and your little edit in easily confirmed that you know nothing of high level PSP2 Force play. Congratulations.

[Nurarihyon]

Lol I never said use neutral weapons, like i said re read the post. I'll be the bigger man, you have your opinion and i have mine. But if you want you can always battle me with a spear while i use my force and see who will win :D

"higher even without non elemental damage unless you have the same element as you are using on your weapon with a 40%"

In layman's terms: I was describing if one was using Diga vs Fire element it would still take more damage than Ice vs Fire unless the weapon you was using
was 40% boost to ice in which if you used an Ice Spell you would then take more damage. But Diga takes the most damage (STOCK).



Oh and your little edit in easily confirmed that you know nothing of high level PSP2 Force play. Congratulations.

I didn't edit that part, you just didn't read. I edited after that part to explain more in depth so you would understand.
And like i said before if you think you know more or you want to prove something just meet me in the battle mode.
This is not the place for petty arguments about who's STICK is longer.

[OriginalB]

Sooo.. someone wanna explain to me how elements work with forces? I know with melee weapons an elemental percent works against its counter part, pretty simple. But with forces the techs are elemental too, so I don't really understand what all is taken into account when looking at elemental damage for them.

[Nurarihyon]

Its the same, elemental force spells works against it's counter part, but will add an even bigger boost if you are using a spell with a weapon that benefits its element. Ex: Foie used with a wand that has 50% Fire elemental damage will boost its damage even further. Also if you have a SE with Empower (whichever element) that also will boost it even higher. Are you using a Newman btw?

[Shakuri]

The edit in was in reference to De Ragan.

[Nurarihyon]

EDIT: Sorry about that OriginalB. Any other questions you have?

[OriginalB]

I am a male newman.. is that ok for a force? I mean normally I'd think they should make the best forces but being that I hear we should be using melee too maybe it'd be worth it to go human for the accuracy and slightly more power?

Another question in regards to element.. What happens if you have a 50% ice weapon and you use foie on A) a fire enemy B) an ice enemy?

[Nurarihyon]

Well you don't really need to use melee for anything more than building chains. Your force capabilities are way stronger than a melee beast even. So use a melee weapon i would prefer guns to keep distance since forces have low defense, and build the chain then use your triangle spell in a combo.

@Grimm Lol dummy, get of my stuffz.....PIRATE. xD

[Shakuri]

I am a male newman.. is that ok for a force? I mean normally I'd think they should make the best forces but being that I hear we should be using melee too maybe it'd be worth it to go human for the accuracy and slightly more power?

Another question in regards to element.. What happens if you have a 50% ice weapon and you use foie on A) a fire enemy B) an ice enemy?

Human Females technically have it the easiest as Forces. Better durability, not much less TP, Dark Mirage Blast, better ATP. They've got less EVP but you can make it up with Leg units.


A) Counts it as if it were used by a Neutral weapon.
B) Same as above.

And lol.

[Eclipsed57]

so after wading through all the arguing going on here im still kind of confused as to how i should be building my force. I have always played hunters and am trying a force in the demo its lvl 7 now and i feel like i just do better using twin sabers which kind of defeats the point of a force, unless its just because i am so low level? I am trying to do it strategicly, 40% ice rod with ice spells on it, using them on fire creatures. its hitting for good amount but the casting is so slow that i could probably do the same damage just spamming twin sabers on it.

i havent played a force into high levels since original PSO so im just wondering, is the payoff worth it in this game for being relatively weaker compared to other classes early on? in the original PSO forces seemed weak low level, great mid level, and then drop off again in the hardest difficulty, im assuming they fixed this?

[Jakosifer]

They get better on the teching side of things later on.

Obviously every class in this game should be meleeing when the situation calls for it.

[Roontek]

so after wading through all the arguing going on here im still kind of confused as to how i should be building my force. I have always played hunters and am trying a force in the demo its lvl 7 now and i feel like i just do better using twin sabers which kind of defeats the point of a force, unless its just because i am so low level? I am trying to do it strategicly, 40% ice rod with ice spells on it, using them on fire creatures. its hitting for good amount but the casting is so slow that i could probably do the same damage just spamming twin sabers on it.

i havent played a force into high levels since original PSO so im just wondering, is the payoff worth it in this game for being relatively weaker compared to other classes early on? in the original PSO forces seemed weak low level, great mid level, and then drop off again in the hardest difficulty, im assuming they fixed this?

They get better as you lvl. There are abilities as a force that you will unlock that increase the cast speed of your Tech's. Barta isn't that great in this game, you will find using zonde, diga, and foie will provide better results overall.

Your on the right track as far as combining element rods with the same Tech's. Just play around with chain building and finishers and you will find they can do a lot of AOE damage quickly.

[Wayu]

Quick question: female Newmans still boast the highest MST/TP, right?

-Wayu

[Roontek]

Quick question: female Newmans still boast the highest MST/TP, right?

-Wayu

Yep, that they are! And increased PP too.

[Wayu]

I know about the PP (currently have 280 PP), and making sure that I can nuke once I finish Braver and get the Ranger lv. 25 EVA boost.

-Wayu

[Lolitron]

lol quoted wrong post...

At level 200/20 force:

Female Newmans have the highest TP.
Female Humans have the highest MST.

[Wayu]

What about lv. 30 Force, then?

Also, what's with SEGA totally downgrading Newmans..? Especially Newman females (used to have highest EVA, TP, MST)...

-Wayu

[Lolitron]

What about lv. 30 Force, then?

Also, what's with SEGA totally downgrading Newmans..? Especially Newman females (used to have highest EVA, TP, MST)...

-Wayu

Err yes my bad I meant at 200/30...

http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad35/lolitronpspo2/chart.jpg

From left to right it goes Human, Newman, Cast, Beast. Of attack is TP. Spirit is MST.

Taken from:
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fspoiler.sakura.ne.jp%2Fsr v%2Fpsp2%2Findex.html&sl=ja&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8

[Jakosifer]

They didn't downgrade Newmans, they just upgraded other races really.

Beasts now tie with them in EVP.
Humans now have superior MST and with Higher HP it pays off more.

They've still got the best TP at least... <_<

[Wayu]

Which one counts more for technique damage - MST or TP?

Also, Beasts have lower base EVP. Newmans have the highest EVP, it's just that males have a buttload more, which makes Beast/Newman males 2nd/1st in EVP respectively.

-Wayu

[Jakosifer]

TP for damage.
MST for defense.

And aren't they pretty much the same once they're maxed out? Give or take 1-3 points or so.

[Wayu]

I don't care! Newman fangirl here! Shaddup xD!

Also, I just like being the one with the highest potential for nuking (what I did in PSU:AotI).

-Wayu

[OriginalB]

another question in regards to element and I'm pretty sure I know the answer but I thought i'd ask anyways... If I use say foie with a 46% light weapon on a dark enemy.. will it do more damage or is it just like using foie with a neutral weapon?

[HiOc]

Question: Is it possible to heal party members with Resta?

[Shakuri]

another question in regards to element and I'm pretty sure I know the answer but I thought i'd ask anyways... If I use say foie with a 46% light weapon on a dark enemy.. will it do more damage or is it just like using foie with a neutral weapon?

Counts as Neutral. Unless said weapon has a Fire Amplifier ability on it.

And you can heal party members with lvl 11+ Resta. Before that it only heals the user.

[OriginalB]

thanks for the quick response.

[RemiusTA]

So as long as I've played PSU, PSP1, and now the demo of PSP2 I've never really got into the force style class. I always see them do really well, and I've heard they're really powerful. So I created one about an hour and a half ago on the demo for PSP2 and to be honest it seems like it starts the slowest in comparison to the other 3 classes. Foie hits for like 30 while if I bring out a sword on the same character my PA hits 22, 4 times.

I've been combo'ing my techs, and that's pretty cool cause they go faster obviously but even then it doesn't seem like I'm doing much DPS.

What are some of the better techs to focus on in order to make things go faster? I feel very sluggish when soloing by comparison to the other classes.

I've been using Barta, Foie, Rafoie, Grants (which seems like a good tech), I don't much like Rabarta its too slow. Are there any really good nuke-style attacks?

My advice for being a Force is to choose another class.

Okay, that sounds really asshole-ish, but seriously this class is garbage. It starts off feeling really good, but the cons far, FAR outweigh the pros, almost to the point where you get to a certain level and feel completely useless. Enemies 10-15 levels under you will be able to kill you in 3 hits, you run out of PP quicker than you can end a chain, and 80% of your technics render themselves completely useless due to their own PP costs or pathetic casting speed. The different elemental spells are NOT made equal in any way, as some Ra/Gi/Basic spells suck REALLY bad compared to others, which makes fighting some enemies living hell. Prime example? Ice Technics are actually the worst technics to use on the Dragon boss -- Earth and Lightning work far, far better.

If you want to survive as a Force, you'll need skills and weapons from other classes to live. A Force who uses only Force weapons and Abilities alone is LITERALLY useless.

[OriginalB]

My advice for being a Force is to choose another class.
A Force who uses only Force weapons and Abilities alone is LITERALLY useless.

That's kind of the impression I get and to be honest it kind of sucks. If I wanted to play a hybrid character I'd pick a vanguard, not a force. What I mean by that is.. I kind of wanted to play a force like (in my opinion) how it should be, which is from a range since they're so fragile. If I want to melee I'll pick a vanguard, or hunter. Maybe even ranger, but not a force. I feel like a force should be a fragile, yet high powered class.

I'm gonna toy with it a little bit more and see if I like it better when I get more techs but I honestly can't imagine I will =/

[Aspect]

Well first off why are you getting hit that many times in succession. Forces really need to take advantage of the new features in this game and dodge, perfect guard etc. I think the use of melee weapons was already told and I agree with that since forces are not that weak in melee...well at least the male ones. PP shouldn't be much of a problem as the mob should be dead before you run out if you know what you are doing. Oh but I really can't argue that last part for now...I am sure dambarta has some use on the Dragon boss but then again I never actually used any techniques to fight it since I was too busy whipping it do death...

But from what I have seen forces do the most damage in the game so I wouldn't really count them useless, maybe you just had a hard time with them?

[RemiusTA]

Well first off why are you getting hit that many times in succession. Forces really need to take advantage of the new features in this game and dodge, perfect guard etc.

.....

1) Force weapons, oddly enough, are the only weapons in this game that cannot guard. Even RIFLES can guard, Rods cannot.

2) Dodge Roll takes alot of PP to use. PP that is precious to any force trying to use a technic to kill something. After I Dodge Roll that attack, i might as well just leave the room, because i wont have enough PP to do anything afterwards.


I think the use of melee weapons was already told and I agree with that since forces are not that weak in melee...well at least the male ones. PP shouldn't be much of a problem as the mob should be dead before you run out if you know what you are doing.
Ha ha, you're playing with me, right? Yeah, lets take melee weapon and go attack that enemy over there that takes 55-90% of my health in a single attack. You forgot Ranged Weapons, which are far more useful in terms of building chains for Forces, but even those take PP amounts that dont leave you many options once you've gotten them to the chain amount you need.

Cards seem like a good option for forces, but alas, the amount of cards you can use as a force is LESS than the amount you could use as a RANGER. Yeah, great thinking there sega.

Bows, another force weapon. They're slow, dont get precision damage, and are useless without the Charge Shot skill anyway, which takes alot of points to equip. The damage is garbage anyway, you're better off trying to kill with a technic and getting one-shotted during your pathetically slow casting animation.



Oh but I really can't argue that last part for now...I am sure dambarta has some use on the Dragon boss FYI: It doesn't.



But from what I have seen forces do the most damage in the game so I wouldn't really count them useless, maybe you just had a hard time with them?Absolutely wrong. They have the POTENTIAL to do the most damage in the game. Huge, HUGE difference. Whether or not that damage is practical or even possible under regular circumstances is the debate, here. Well, not really a debate, because any force user would tell you that it isn't.


Now, in terms of practical situations, forces do the least damage in the game. The only enemies you'll quickly clear are the slow moving, mindless ones that walk to your face and let you smack them. Any enemy that moves quickly towards you or does evasive maneuvers is going to make your technics miss, and will likely end up in your face and kill you.

Rangers, with the Double Charge Shot ability, not only can do damage on equal terms with you (most of the time far more than you can achieve), but they can do it faster, safer, and more efficiently than you can with your abilities.

Forces are ass. Unless you have someone building chains for you, this game is going to be a living hell for you. I beat the final boss in story mode with my hunter almost 15 levels under what i did with my Force. Shizuru is almost IMPOSSIBLE to defeat as a force unless you're very well leveled or use EX traps and Photon Blasts. On equal level with your enemies past B-rank missions and during bosses, Force Class is a handicap in itself.




Edit: oh not to say i didn't have fun with it, though. However, once you get into A-S rank mission territory, you start to realize that you should have been playing Hunter/Ranger/Vanguard from the jump. It's just overwhelming the amount of precaution you have to exert to stay alive, let alone damage the enemies.

[OriginalB]

Forces are ass.

I don't know why, but i lol'd sooo hard at this. Probably in part because it doesn't make any grammatical sense (or maybe it does but doesn't sound like it does?).

Either way, what keeps me from playing a force is that you *must* use melee. Yes, forces get higher EVP (right?) and that can *help* keep you alive but ultimately going into melee range sucks for a force both offensively and defensively.

A nice solution would have been to give forces more PP regen, or make it so when you do a technic combo the third one in the combo gives you back some PP.

Slow casting could be combatted by units later on, but that doesn't mean it doesn't suck real bad for the time being. And by no means should a force be gimped if they don't want to use said unit, which is kind of the idea i'm getting.

Yea, if you can get a high combo and then use a good force finisher that would be great. But from a range, building a good combo will leave you with little PP and not enough to pull off a good finisher. I think there could have been a lot of better ways to go about the new PP "rules" than "meleeing gives you PP, everything else takes it." That's not to say that rangers and forces shouldn't use PP at all but there should definately be a means of comboing from afar without taking a lot of PP, no?

Either way I'm gonna stick with it for a while. If nothing else a force might be fun on a team, because honestly it sucks playing one solo so far.

End note: I know it's only the demo, so I'll save my judgement until release. Right now I'm having too much fun with every other class but Force anyways.

[kongajinken]

I'm in the same boat with most of you in the fact that I can't stand using melee as a force and feel that if I am required to I might as well be playing a vanguard.

If you're dead set on playing force purely then I would suggest a wand+R-mag.
(Personally I use zalure for the extra 30% damage bonus, while the R-mag builds a chain)

[Aspect]

Well if you feel that strongly about forces I don't think I can sway your opinion. I like forces a lot although I hate the hassle of playing them it is rewarding to see the end results of all your hard work...even if it doesn't wow anybody else I still enjoy playing them and so did you it seems. So I guess I just boils down to your preference and if your willing to play with a fragile and slow class?

[OriginalB]

The original idea behind this thread was to see what everyone else was doing in order to be a successful force. I'm going to keep playing my force to see if he/she grows on me because honestly I *want* to like it. Bottom line, I can't really judge a class solely on the demo (especially in the case of the force, who usually gets better the more you level).

[mphil145]

This topic was a nice read, I to am feeling that forces compared to the other classes are a bit underwhelmed but being that I've only played the demo I can't say what happens in the full game but I'm looking forward to finding out first hand

[that cast named kai]

i guess i am being obvious, but don't forces remind you how they were in pso (in that challenging semi-masochistic way)

i guess from what little i have played of the demo, it is backs to basics where melee in king no matter the class, and using tech is more so for breaking the chain instead of the spam feast of psu (which i am guess is where most player are getting their POV for playing as a force) it is kinda nice to see this going on, i just wish you could whack enemies with your rod or wand

i am guess the best melee weapons for force have been whips and slicers (since both provide decent crowd control and enough distance that you are not too bad off)

oh well, btw am i the only one that has noticed that wands can lock up when paired with a shield, not sure if am doing something dumb or if copy of the demo is buggy and i need to dl it agian

[kongajinken]

They had there advantages in PSO. They could easily hit every enemy in the room no matter where they were from any side of the map.(RaFoie) I found that in PSO I actually killed much faster then with my hunter for the sole reason that I could walk into a room cast 3 spells and have the whole room be dead. Force was pretty bad on bosses though.( I played solo)

[Wayu]

^

Vol Opt v.2 was (and still is) impossible to solo with a Force.

Lv. 30 Zonde. You could kill stuff you couldn't even see but could target. Like Baranz.

PSPo2 is more engaging and challenging for Forces than simply spamming techs. More tactical, I guess?

-Wayu