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Roger Triton
Nov 25, 2010, 06:38 AM
Would you say the graphics in PSO version2 for Dreamcast are better than Blue Burst, C.A.R.D. Revolution or the PC versions?

And for someone that is very graphics oriented (unfortunately me), would someone see a huge difference between PSO2 and the PC/PS2 version of PSU?

Mike
Nov 25, 2010, 06:53 AM
Er, PSO2 for Dreamcast? Do you mean Version 2?

lostinseganet
Nov 25, 2010, 08:07 AM
They should make the games graphics cartoon/cel shading graphics like. With no jaggies and great lighting. That way they will have plenty of room for gameplay with 16 player coop. Everyone draws phantasy star cartoon like anyway.

Rei-San
Nov 25, 2010, 11:06 AM
They should make the game with the Hedgehog Engine. After seeing the graphics of Sonic Colors and 360's Unleashed, that would be total badass eye candy.


....I just wonder if the game can handle such graphical power now that I think of it? Hmm... Maybe Cel-shading is the better idea. :/

MAXrobo
Nov 25, 2010, 11:30 AM
i dont think they should cel-shade it. i think it always makes games look weird and rough.

Jinketsu
Nov 25, 2010, 12:41 PM
Zelda: Wind Waker and Tales of Vesperia are just two of many cel-shaded games that look amazing, considering.

I wouldn't mind a cel-shaded look, but it would kind of take away from the experience we had in PSO. It would leave a weird taste in my mouth, being a direct sequel and all.

Zyrusticae
Nov 25, 2010, 01:17 PM
Cel-shading is not inherently "faster" or less-demanding than just going straight 3D.

As long as they don't utterly fail at optimization like they did with PSU, the game should run just fine.

Kent
Nov 25, 2010, 08:28 PM
It's worth noting that cel-shading is a lot broader of a shader type than what people will typically associate with it - that is, it doesn't have to exist just to make things look "cartoony." It also isn't easier to process necessarily - it's just that it's easier to use lower-polygon models that fit with the style, and the lack of polygons will be less apparent because of the shading technique being employed. Not that that's a bad thing.

In a more technical sense, all that cel-shading really does is remove attenuation of highlights and shadows by replacing them with very sharp barriers of contrast. Depending on to what extreme they take the effect (and how liberal the application of outlines for characters, which is actually a separate effect), games can go from looking like Jet Set Radio Future (http://game.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/20010605/sega13.jpg), to Sonic 4 (http://image.jeuxvideo.com/images/p3/s/o/sonic-the-hedgehog-4-episode-1-playstation-3-ps3-067.jpg), to Borderlands (http://numbthumb.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/borderlands-e3-screenshot-7.jpg).

All of these games use cel-shading, just to different extremes - with Borderlands being significantly more subtle in its approach and muting of attenuation, and JSRF making it as outstanding as possible (and it is glorious).

Cel-shading in PSO though? I'm not so sure about that - granted, it could certainly work, especially if the used a more subtle styling of it, but I don't thing going full-on cartoon mode with the graphics is the right choice for a game like PSO.

Kyrith_Ranger_Pso
Nov 25, 2010, 10:14 PM
Would you say the graphics in PSO2 for Dreamcast are better than Blue Burst, C.A.R.D. Revolution or the PC versions?

And for someone that is very graphics oriented (unfortunately me), would someone see a huge difference between PSO2 and the PC/PS2 version of PSU?

pso v.2 for the dreamcast is not pso2, this should probably be moved to PSO general

Allison_W
Nov 25, 2010, 10:33 PM
I totally have inappropriate feelings for cel shading. Make it happen.

ChronoTrigga
Nov 26, 2010, 05:16 AM
Bring on cel-shading options plz. On or off.

RemiusTA
Nov 26, 2010, 05:23 PM
They should make the games graphics cartoon/cel shading graphics like. With no jaggies and great lighting. That way they will have plenty of room for gameplay with 16 player coop. Everyone draws phantasy star cartoon like anyway.


I wholly disagree. They've been on this cartoony cel shaded style for years now, and i would be pretty peeved if they made the next entry in PSO something that looked like that PSZ crap. They need to stick with the art style PSO had. You know, back where people actually looked like real fighters? Had muscle tone? Didn't all have the same flawless facial features and ginormous eyes?

Look at some of the old official art for PSO again. There was nothing cartoony about them -- in fact, they were quite realistic looking. Even the faces you were able to choose reflected this. If you fastforward to PSU, the characters all shared this, although the game went for a much more "animeish" feel to it. Besides, if they ever want this game to do well ANYWHERE but japan, they need to get as far away from that "Jpop Shonen anime" feeling as possible. There's only so many ways you can make Futuristic Anime Laser Swords appealing over here, and the easiest way to NOT make it appealing is put little pink frilly girls all over the place.


Graphical quality should be typical, OLD Sonic Team format -- as best as you can get them to look. Take your artstyle and try as hard to make it come to life as you can. Sonic Unleashed looked absolutely amazing, and Sonic Colors would have looked even better were it developed for an HD system with the Hedgehog Engine lighting techniques.


BTW, Guys, Cel Shading really doesn't mean a damn thing when it comes to "how much they can have on the screen" or something. There are plenty of ways to compensate for things like that without having to Cel-Shade the game. Now, if they Cel-shaded the game and make it look like, oh, say Valkyria Chronicles or Ultimate Ninja Storm, then you're onto something. But you see, the amount of work they put into those games CLEARLY shows not only when you look at it, but gets better when you play it. Then I'd be very impressed. Cyberconnect2 are almost gods at Cel Shading at this point, though, and Valkyria Chronicles is very rare when it comes to games that look like you're literally playing an Anime. Point being, those games share the exact same issues with any other high-graphical game, and in no way easier to create. I remember when FFXII came out, Square Enix kept talking about having to lower the amount of polygons in each instance to keep everything running smooth, but once the game was released, nobody could even tell the difference -- in fact, they looked even better than the other FF models.



So, if Cel-Shading is used as a copout for actual graphical quality, then no, i'll pass. If they actually TRIED to make it look good, then i'd be all over it. But i personally dont care much for PSPo2's overly cartoony pointy-faced artstyle, or PSZ's super cliche any-other-day anime style, so i'll still pass...

Roger Triton
Nov 26, 2010, 05:26 PM
Er, PSO2 for Dreamcast? Do you mean Version 2?
Yeah, I'm talking about PSO2 on Dreamcast, as well as the Gamecube & PC versions of the PSO spinoff games (including C.A.R.D. Revolution)


Bring on cel-shading options plz. On or off.
If there were an option to have either (by having the CHARACTER look that way or not) then it would be easy to implement in the code. But the entire game? No way they could code the entire game that way & keep the cost of the project to a decent level.

The Necris Process
Nov 26, 2010, 06:29 PM
The more realistic approach with Borderlands' cel-shade visuals would work great with a new PSO, in my opinion. I would be all for it.

Kent
Nov 26, 2010, 07:48 PM
Yeah, I'm talking about PSO2 on Dreamcast
PSO2 was never on the Dreamcast, mainly because development on the game started very recently. Phantasy Star Online Version 2 was released on the Dreamcast back in late 2001, however, it was simply an update to the original game (much like subsequent releases of PSO Episodes I & II and Blue Burst). PSO2 is, as far as we understand it, a separate game.

DreXxiN
Nov 27, 2010, 03:21 AM
Honestly I hope they don't "limit graphics" for this game with consoles in mind... It's such a hinderance for PC players (for the record, I have a PS3 and a gaming PC).

Just L2 optimize the game this time please.. Phantasy Star Portable 2 should not have better frame rates than Phantasy Star Universe on the Xbox 360/Playstation 2.

Niered
Nov 27, 2010, 04:04 AM
I love cel shading, some of my favorite games are cel shaded, like Viewtiful Joe, Okami, and Borderlands.

That said, no. No cell shading. And most of all, none of the bullshit overly cliche Japanese-Futuristic shit that was in PSU. I am loathe to use the term usually, but PSO was..."darker". And it worked well, that game was a game that got its setting right, the environment design was spot on as a result. PSU was little more than bland room proceeded by bland room. Seriously, take a look at Linear Line, what exactly in that stage stands out? Nothing.

Lunariancrystal
Nov 27, 2010, 06:15 AM
Ok...This whole post is confusing the heck out of me.

First of all...This thread got derailed into an argument about cel-shading vs normal graphics engines...? Ok, whats that got to do with the OP?

Yes, the graphics in later versions are better. Interface is also revamped (HP/TP/PB bar).

Chaobo99
Nov 27, 2010, 01:43 PM
Just make PSO2 with graphics on par/better(hmm?) with/then Sonic Unleashed and SOnic Colors.
Both were good graphically, especially with Sonic Colors bein on a non-hd system.

Rei-San
Nov 27, 2010, 02:24 PM
Agreeing with Remius about CC being gods of cel shading, I would like to see them work on the game. I've always been comparing PSO to .Hack as a kid, and frankly seeing the game play a bit like .hack in terms of open combat would be kinda cool.

And use their cell shading with the Hedgehog engine. Wow, it would be beautiful. :)

...But this is just an empty dream though.

lostinseganet
Nov 27, 2010, 09:41 PM
Ok...This whole post is confusing the heck out of me.

First of all...This thread got derailed into an argument about cel-shading vs normal graphics engines...? Ok, whats that got to do with the OP?

Yes, the graphics in later versions are better. Interface is also revamped (HP/TP/PB bar).

Cell shading is a style of graphics that is why I feel it fits.

Niered
Nov 27, 2010, 11:48 PM
Cell shading is a style of graphics that is why I feel it fits.

...hu-what?

Thats like saying, "Pointillism is a style of painting, thats why I feel that it should have been used in Calvin and Hobbes".

I really doubt thats what you were trying to say, best to better explain yourself.

Roger Triton
Nov 28, 2010, 07:10 AM
Oh hai, I don't think the thread got derailed at all. Although I was looking to see which version of pre-PSU I might prefer, there's a lot of good talk going on. I especially liked Remius bring up CyberConnect2. Considering that i'm such a fan of .hack// & .hack//G.U. Of course he's talking about Naruto....ummm i won't touch that subject here. might start an internetz flame war or worst LOL I think i'll give PSO a try from the PC side, on the so super secret we cannot talk about it servers and enjoy myself. I suppose that most of those are on there are mature & not into stealing/hacking so I can have fun just playing.

Although it is always fun (from the outside looking in) to do something new and innovative, have caution when it comes to MMORPGs. I think conservative is the watchword. Already, SquareEnix is having their butt chewed out for making FF14 much different than FF11. Of course the graphics on FF14 are F!!!ING GORGEOUS!! (not enough !!! to express my emotion LOL) so a graphics retard like me is just ooogling over the shiny pixels and ray tracing. Looks nice and shiny wooooowwww. But that makes more than a game though, and a company that has a limited budget has to be ultra-conservative when making a new RPG.

I don't think Sega can afford to screw up. So don't consider the next PSO console game to be super innovative graphics wise. If anything, they might take a more natural approach by backing off on the anime a bit. The Japanese market IS going to determine how the next game looks. And plays. And just about everything else. (Oh boy I can see myself going way off topic or having the thread become a Sega bashfest. I think I will stop.)

And just for anyone's information, I am equally happy with PSzero and PSP/PSP2 in how they look. What matters most to me is fun factor, easy controls, and going online to play in the quickest way possible.

I get dragged too deep into semantics often. Time to play some games!! Hell with politics.

Kent
Nov 29, 2010, 01:01 AM
Already, SquareEnix is having their butt chewed out for making FF14 much different than FF11.
The backlash wasn't caused by it being "different," but rather, by being essentially released a quarter of the way through Beta.

Roger Triton
Nov 29, 2010, 01:14 AM
The backlash wasn't caused by it being "different," but rather, by being essentially released a quarter of the way through Beta.

So are you saying that SquareEnix threw quality to the curb/rushed a Beta product out/ Don't give a rat's ass about their customers then?

That sounds like a few companies I worked for. Nothing new.

Let the SE beating begin 8-)

Anyone remember Last Remnant for Xbox360? I DO.
http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/rpg/thelastremnant/index.html

Kent
Nov 29, 2010, 01:30 AM
So are you saying that SquareEnix threw quality to the curb/rushed a Beta product out/ Don't give a rat's ass about their customers then?

That sounds like a few companies I worked for. Nothing new.

Let the SE beating begin 8-)

Anyone remember Last Remnant for Xbox360? I DO.
http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/rpg/thelastremnant/index.html
Big difference between what was wrong with The Last Remnant and what's wrong with Final Fantasy XIV.

The Last Remnant had (almost) all of its gameplay aspects solidified before it saw release, however, it was almost entirely graphical problems that the game had on the Xbox 360. Loading pop-in is severely-reduced by installing the game to the hard drive, but if you can deal with a low framerate at times, the game, mechanically, works just fine (even if it is Nintendo Hard).

Final Fantasy XIV however, is kind of the opposite. The graphics are great and work just find, however, the game's design itself has numerous missing or broken aspects that greatly detract from the experience as a whole (to the point of the game being simply not fun to continue playing for very long). That's not to say that it can't be a great game once they fix things, but as it was released, the game's design is broken to the point where it's not worth playing. At the very least, they realized this and started giving extensions to the free trial period of early-adopters, so they deserve credit for admitting their mistake.

But I have ot stress the critical difference between these two situations: The Last Remnant was actually a very solid game in its own right, just hindered by some framerate and loading issues (one of the two can be solved by anyone with a hard drive) - the subsequent PC release fixed these issues, but at the same time, had some changes to the formula to really turn it into "easy mode" in comparison. Contrast Final Fantasy XIV, which is not so rife with technical issues (sans things like lag and menu interactions being server-side, but those are server and archetecture-design issues, respectively) as it is design issues - it's an empty game with very clear, very blatant holes all throughout it.

Crystal_Shard
Nov 29, 2010, 02:01 AM
Hope I'm not beating a dead horse on this thread, but on the topic of cel shading, what would the detractors of that think if Sega were to use the render engine they used for Valkyria Chronicles? If there's one thing I've always thought Sega was making strides in, it's been their cell shading tech.

If there's a shader engine I really would like to see used, it'll be that one.

Jinketsu
Nov 29, 2010, 12:25 PM
Big difference between what was wrong with The Last Remnant and what's wrong with Final Fantasy XIV.

The Last Remnant had (almost) all of its gameplay aspects solidified before it saw release, however, it was almost entirely graphical problems that the game had on the Xbox 360. Loading pop-in is severely-reduced by installing the game to the hard drive, but if you can deal with a low framerate at times, the game, mechanically, works just fine (even if it is Nintendo Hard).

Final Fantasy XIV however, is kind of the opposite. The graphics are great and work just find, however, the game's design itself has numerous missing or broken aspects that greatly detract from the experience as a whole (to the point of the game being simply not fun to continue playing for very long). That's not to say that it can't be a great game once they fix things, but as it was released, the game's design is broken to the point where it's not worth playing. At the very least, they realized this and started giving extensions to the free trial period of early-adopters, so they deserve credit for admitting their mistake.

But I have ot stress the critical difference between these two situations: The Last Remnant was actually a very solid game in its own right, just hindered by some framerate and loading issues (one of the two can be solved by anyone with a hard drive) - the subsequent PC release fixed these issues, but at the same time, had some changes to the formula to really turn it into "easy mode" in comparison. Contrast Final Fantasy XIV, which is not so rife with technical issues (sans things like lag and menu interactions being server-side, but those are server and archetecture-design issues, respectively) as it is design issues - it's an empty game with very clear, very blatant holes all throughout it.

I completely agree on this one. Though I feel what Xelitoss is getting at. Having been playing FFXI since its US PC release, I can definitely see the misplacement of its unfamiliar gameplay alongside the familiar characters (races, rather) and how its 'black holes' of sorts - making the game seem like you're progressing abnormally slower than you'd like - could make a veteran of the old feel out of place and not so enthusiastic about playing with the new.

Though I must say, I would love to see PSO2 have this high of quality graphics - maybe even under directx11 (god forbid) with Tesselation. While I would much rather have the set, direct routes in any area like the series has provided for us, I would definitely love to see "events on the horizon" (I just wanted to say that) of things that didn't matter to the direct gameplay, but were still nice to see as you passed by. Just something to make the world feel big, while not necessarily making it too broad of a landscape to travel.

RemiusTA
Nov 30, 2010, 05:40 PM
Hope I'm not beating a dead horse on this thread, but on the topic of cel shading, what would the detractors of that think if Sega were to use the render engine they used for Valkyria Chronicles? If there's one thing I've always thought Sega was making strides in, it's been their cell shading tech.

If there's a shader engine I really would like to see used, it'll be that one.

Sega WOW made Valkyria Chronicles, Sonic Team made PSU. If they get all their different divisions working together on the game, then it's a possibility. But somehow, the way Sega functions, i highly doubt it.

I really could care less about the shader used, but i pray that Phantasy Star travels as far away from PSPo2's artstyle as possible. It's made it too easy for the game to become an anime outfitter loli gauntlet. I still prefer that realistic artstyle that PSO used.



And on the topic of Square Enix...

[spoiler-box]
...well, they AREN'T Squaresoft, first and foremost. I'd chock most of SE's issues up to the wrong bad decisions. There are bad decisions, and then there are the bad decisions you REALLY dont want to make, you know?

Also, them giving almost every game they design to Tetsuya Nomura.....i dont know if it's helping them or working against them, in all truth. As of late, im just afraid all his games are going to being to feel the same. Final Fantasy should not play like Kingdom Hearts. I also dont know when all of the Final Fantasy characters just decided that gravity does not exist -- Dissidia, Birth By Sleep, and Kingdom Hearts II's floaty ass mechanics are kind of becoming odd. (Not that they arent super fun games or anything. They most definitely are.) Hell, even FFXIII's Launch mechanic looked extremely odd with the amount of time they just decide to make them float in the air.

Also, things are starting to happen that i just dont think Squaresoft would have done. For instance, all the FF7 spinoffs. Advent Children absolutely raped the storyline and characters of Final Fantasy 7. (Cloud an emo? Rufus alive? No materia usage? Wha?) Parasite Eve...poor parasite eve. I have no doubt it's going to be a fun and somewhat unique shooter, but what happened to the unique RPG style combat from the first one? Now the gameplay mechanic revolves around Aya ripping her clothing off? Yuna from FFX now revealing her ass and running around with Twin Pistols? Shes a somewhat timid summoner turned J-POP SINGER? Rikku finally gets legal and loses ALL of her clothing? What the fuck where you dipshits thinking? Way to ruin your well thought out character designs just to appeal to a larger crowd, Square. Thats what NEW IPs are for. (sadly PSO has taken this route almost completely.)

whats with all the sellout shit? Where is my Tactics, Vagrant Story, Xenogears, Parasite Eve, Brave Fencer Musashi, Bushido Blade....where are all my unique and wonderfully designed (even if slightly flawed) videogames? I dont care about spiky haired people people draped in leather using COMPLETELY impractical and impossible weapons and female cloud ripoffs nearly as much as a genuinely good game.

IMO, the best game Square Enix has produced since its merger was most definitely Final Fantasy XII. It was beautiful, it was unique, had tons of depth, and it had a great storyline. Production values put in the RIGHT places. Despite a few internal issues the writing staff had during the development, it came out wonderfully. The only thing it was missing was a memorable lead character. Well, and a decent Limit Break system, but FF8's system was just as/way more broken, and FF9's sucked penis.



Last Remnant was a result of the Unreal Engine. I dont know what the fuck they were thinking -- maybe they wanted to cut corners, or appeal to more western audiences or something, but they didn't know what they were doing with it and it showed.

FFXIII? I was joyed when i found out SE was developing it's own graphical engine. I dont know exactly what happened (they said themselves it was issues with differing opinions), but the graphics were amazing, gameplay pretty damn good, but the game itself was LACKING like all hell. What the hell kind of RPG runs on complete and TOTAL rails? It was only decent at best. In all truth, the only reason i preordered it is because it was a Final Fantasy title.

FFXIII Versus looks like it's either going to be DAMN amazing or just as lacking as FFXIII. If they keep trying to mainstream ALL the excitement in the game into one area (and it's usually combat), then the game is going to fall flat again. The reason FF7 was so popular is because it had ALOT of things in the game aside from ONLY talking, fights, and endgame bosses. That isnt what made any of them good games.


[/spoiler-box]

Unit_24
Dec 6, 2010, 09:56 AM
I think if it looks cartoon-e it will take away because PSO had a darker feeling to it.

lostinseganet
Dec 7, 2010, 06:35 PM
Hope I'm not beating a dead horse on this thread, but on the topic of cel shading, what would the detractors of that think if Sega were to use the render engine they used for Valkyria Chronicles? If there's one thing I've always thought Sega was making strides in, it's been their cell shading tech.

If there's a shader engine I really would like to see used, it'll be that one.I think Valkyria Chronicles look would not fit pso...

Manticore
Dec 20, 2010, 11:57 AM
Dreamcast PSO had superior character models, and some spells looked better, but thats about it.

Akaimizu
Dec 20, 2010, 12:03 PM
The main thing about Dreamcast PSO was the look of RaFoie, to me. It had that extra small planetary 3D wave graphic (ala. Dragon Slave!!!) on that version. I kind of miss that look. I started watching Slayers right around that time, too. It was perfect timing. :)

Darki
Dec 20, 2010, 12:12 PM
Work less in graphics and more in balance...

Kent
Dec 22, 2010, 10:26 PM
Work less in graphics and more in balance...
Different departments are different. You can't really reallocate graphic artists into game design and balance positions - it doesn't work that way.

Shadownami92
Dec 28, 2010, 05:19 AM
Different departments are different. You can't really reallocate graphic artists into game design and balance positions - it doesn't work that way.

True, but you could spend more money/resources on hiring game designers and people to work on the technical issues compared to hiring more/better artists. Either way I would prefer to see something a little less super clean in the visual style, kind of like an in between of PSU graphics, Monster Hunter, and Tron(super glowey bits yo!).

Either way I personally would prefer what I just mentioned or go with the other route that, and that's to do something amazing that's beyond my imagination in turns of exploring a new art style and doing it well.

Kent
Dec 28, 2010, 08:17 AM
My problem with going toward PSU's graphical style is how behind-the-times it really was. Even compared to other games on the same console, the textures were of low-quality, the characters and monsters had stiff animations that clashed quite harshly with the fact that everyone slides around too much (try turning sharply while running).

Compare to Final Fantasy XII, for instance, which has much larger areas, looks better by several magnitudes (in both character and area geometry, as well as texture work), can handle many more characters and special effects on-screen at once, far better animation and animation handling (no sliding to one side while turning, here) and has the same target platform (and far more content), after all of this. The fact that its not online does not actually make a difference here.

Honestly though, Phantasy Star Universe's graphical style seemed to stray a lot from what we saw in Phantasy Star Online (rather than being a logical evolution of it). I certainly hope that an actual sequel to PSO will actually take the game, graphically, into this generation, while retaining a similar style to the original.

Roger Triton
Dec 28, 2010, 10:44 PM
i dont think they should cel-shade it. i think it always makes games look weird and rough.

and so you must not have a hard-on for Valkyria Chronicles obviously.

Agreeing with Remius about CC being gods of cel shading, I would like to see them work on the game. I've always been comparing PSO to .Hack as a kid, and frankly seeing the game play a bit like .hack in terms of open combat would be kinda cool.

the graphics of .hack and .hack//G.U. are a bit different. I like the more realistic (less kiddy anime-ish) style of G.U. myself.

Chaobo99
Dec 29, 2010, 12:04 AM
Honestly, this but better(or "more modernized" might be a better way to describe it.) works for me >.>;;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtpVKHsX4L8

Brings back memories. The graphics to me are better then some games out today T_T lol.. it's not even an HD quality trailer either.

TheBlackMage
Dec 29, 2010, 10:14 AM
PSO2 could have the exact same graphics as the original PSO and I would be perfectly happy. I don't expect them too do so but I having a feeling they'll stay around that style and not adapt PSU/PSZ style or create a new one.