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Korten12
Apr 26, 2011, 10:06 PM
I think what they need to do (and this already maybe like this based on the combat video) is to make Forces more dynamic. In PSO and PSU you had to stand when casting a spell, you couldn't move or anything (meaning once you casted the spell you stopped.) This made the class slower then the rest.

What I think they need to allow you to do is like when you're using foie, able to run around and fire it. Of course they would need to make some draw backs as it might be a bit OP (depending on how they go about it.)

So really they just need to make Forces faster pace, rather then the slower pace they been before.

Agree or disagree?

Randomness
Apr 26, 2011, 10:36 PM
http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181653

Eh... it's a toss up, imo.


I completely agree that FOs could use a little more mobility during combat. Frankly, if a ranger can walk around charging their grenade launcher in PSP2, I see no reason to not let a FO walk around maintaining something like Dam- and Nosu- techs were.

In general, though, let them run while throwing weak techs, walk on medium, and only stop for the big stuff.

I see no reason to not be able to dash to the side flinging Foie.

ChronoTrigga
Apr 26, 2011, 10:48 PM
Honestly I hope they take a clue from Phantasy Star Zero. Forces were perfect in that game IMO.

Split
Apr 26, 2011, 11:02 PM
All I know is in PSO Ep 1&2, level 30 techs tore face as it was. I think it balanced Forces well that you couldn't run away from enemies that could only match your movement speed on Ultimate while firing off various spells, and it sort of adds to the feeling that magic takes some form of concentration to conjure up. That said, I don't think they necessarily intended for it to be a balancing agent; the game and its engine were conceived before good, standard moving/shooting gameplay mechanics were pioneered by games like Halo.

I would like to be able to move and tech the same way you can move your shoot. Overbalancing is, in my opinion, an unfortunate side effect of the otherwise positively progressive period of gaming that we're living in. It may have something to do with growth in popularity of competitive gaming, but nowadays it seems like everything has to be exactly equal in games. The bottom line is that I want to have fun, and nothing is more fun than owning.

Kent
Apr 27, 2011, 07:52 PM
You don't necessarily have to be able to haul ass while casting in order to make Forces feel more dynamic. I think that being able to move while casting certain kinds of techniques may be appropriate, depending on what the technique in question does, but isn't really a catch-all to making gameplay for casting characters more dynamic.

Of course, casting techniques doesn't necessarily need to be some fast-paced, acrobatic affair in order to be improved - it could easily be worked into something that's simply more tactical or strategic, rather than something that's just faster.

PSO did one thing very right with techniques: Nearly every single technique used in combat was functionally-different from every other. A few were somewhat-similar in styles (such as Rabarta and Razonde being a circular-AOE centered around the caster, and Foie and Megid both being linearly-traveling projectiles, though their effects drastically-different). This is probably the best element of PSO's technique system that PSO2 could hope to copy, and one that's basically a necessity for fun and engaging gameplay involving techniques (being that it was, really, the best part about PSO's offensive techniques in the first place).

As for healing and supportive techniques... Sure, there's ways to make them more interesting or flavorful, but they don't necessarily need such a thing in an action-oriented game like this. Trying to make healing interesting is usually the product of a game where a player will have a dedicated "healer" role in the first place, which (hopefully) won't be the case here.

Back onto offensive techniques, I think a basic change that would make techniques a bit more fun would be to implement both "light" and "heavy" versions of a given technique. That is, by just tapping the button assigned to a technique, you'd be able to cast a light version of it, perhaps one that can be cast while moving, or maybe a version that can be done in the standard three-step combo we see with weapons. By holding the button, you instead have to stand still and briefly charge the technique before releasing, in order to cast a more potent version with increased other attributes (such as range, AOE, status chance, etc.).

Another potential idea, is to work on the notion of having additional effects, other than merely elemental damage, onto techniques - but not just for the sake of inflicting status effects, but playing with status effects in specific ways in order to maximize damage output. Things like frozen enemies taking bonus damage from lightning attacks could potentially make for an interesting idea to play around with, considering there's an intelligent and logical method they could use to interlink the added effects of various techniques.

r00tabaga
Apr 27, 2011, 08:01 PM
I like the "light hard" tech casting idea a lot. Would be sweet being a high level force on Forest-Normal just flinging Zonde or Foie around...showing off!

Wayu
Apr 27, 2011, 08:13 PM
In PSP2i movement while casting is already implemented, although it's limited to strafing.

-Wayu

Ark22
Apr 27, 2011, 08:16 PM
I say run and tech.I can see them doing flips and what not shooting foies...Think Last Air bender

NoiseHERO
Apr 27, 2011, 08:18 PM
I say run and tech.I can see them doing flips and what not shooting foies...Think Last Air bender

and suddenly!! rangers became the most boring class again...

Also I hate avatar. but that's another story. :0

Okay I lied, it's watchable, but avatar should stay where avatar lives...

Usually games like this give the magic class super godly aoe mob crushing room filling techs anyway, you won't even have to move if it's done right.

Ark22
Apr 27, 2011, 08:30 PM
and suddenly!! rangers became the most boring class again...

Also I hate avatar. but that's another story. :0

Okay I lied, it's watchable, but avatar should stay where avatar lives...

Usually games like this give the magic class super godly aoe mob crushing room filling techs anyway, you won't even have to move if it's done right.

You just broke my heart.....

ARChan
Apr 27, 2011, 08:54 PM
(Copy/Pasted from another forum)

What I would like to see is a little more variability in being a FO. Sure, it's nice using techs above Lv 25 in PSO but it got repetitive when I got that high. So, I'm actually a little more interested in there being the ability to combine techs. Well... y'know. There's always going to be your basic attack. Assuming that teching is going to be similar to PSZ, it'd be nice if you can attach another element to the basic element to act as the charged tech. To make things interesting, all available combinations would be available to the FO but only selected combinations would be available for each character class. Here is a list of ideas:
Foie+Foie=PSO Gifoie
Barta+Barta=PSO Gibarta
Zonde+Zonde=PSO Gizonde
Zonde+Grants=PSO Razonde
Grants+Zonde=PSZ Gigrants
Megid+Grants=PSZ Gimegid
Foie+Grants=PSO Rafoie
Shifta+Deband=Simultaneous buff (half strength)
Foie+Shifta=Fire element zone attack buff
Foie+Deband=Fire element zone defense buff
Resta+Resta=Resta range of PSO FOmarl/newearl
Resta+Anti=PSO Reverser
Grants+Grants=PSO Divine Punishment
However, if this is the case, I foresee there being a whole problem of prerendering and maybe too much data on FOs.

Ark22
Apr 27, 2011, 08:56 PM
(Copy/Pasted from another forum)

What I would like to see is a little more variability in being a FO. Sure, it's nice using techs above Lv 25 in PSO but it got repetitive when I got that high. So, I'm actually a little more interested in there being the ability to combine techs. Well... y'know. There's always going to be your basic attack. Assuming that teching is going to be similar to PSZ, it'd be nice if you can attach another element to the basic element to act as the charged tech. To make things interesting, all available combinations would be available to the FO but only selected combinations would be available for each character class. Here is a list of ideas:
Foie+Foie=PSO Gifoie
Barta+Barta=PSO Gibarta
Zonde+Zonde=PSO Gizonde
Zonde+Grants=PSO Razonde
Grants+Zonde=PSZ Gigrants
Megid+Grants=PSZ Gimegid
Foie+Grants=PSO Rafoie
Shifta+Deband=Simultaneous buff (half strength)
Foie+Shifta=Fire element zone attack buff
Foie+Deband=Fire element zone defense buff
Resta+Resta=Resta range of PSO FOmarl/newearl
Resta+Anti=PSO Reverser
Grants+Grants=PSO Divine Punishment
However, if this is the case, I foresee there being a whole problem of prerendering and maybe too much data on FOs.

Reminds me of Crystal Chronicles with the mixing of magick.But I can totally see this

NoiseHERO
Apr 27, 2011, 08:59 PM
Reminds me of Crystal Chronicles with the mixing of magick.But I can totally see this

I also remember something similar in Lost magic(that game had an awesome magic system...but of course it also revolved around it...)

Wayu
Apr 27, 2011, 08:59 PM
Is there a Force combat video out now? o.0

-Wayu

Wayu
Apr 27, 2011, 09:02 PM
Oh.

Was curious why there was a topic on this. ^^;

-Wayu

NoiseHERO
Apr 27, 2011, 09:04 PM
Thinking of leveling a force and a hunter simultaneously...

If it's anything like PSU...if you didn't start as a force early you were pretty much doomed to stare at those 234235235 techs that you had to speed level to lvl 50...as opposed to just leveling them naturally from the beginning.

Of course this branches out into a bunch of different issues, including how the tech/PA system is actually going to work. If we're gonna get screwed over with having to level them again, and how long that leveling will take.

/pours bucket of water over my head...

Can't wait for new info already... e_e

Ark22
Apr 27, 2011, 09:09 PM
Oh.

Was curious why there was a topic on this. ^^;

-Wayu

Just for the lols and lols.
But I never heard of Lost magic....GOOGLE

They are best left alone as disks.So no one can spam one level and get a level 30 tech

NoiseHERO
Apr 27, 2011, 09:14 PM
Just for the lols and lols.
But I never heard of Lost magic....GOOGLE

They are best left alone as disks.So no one can spam one level and get a level 30 tech

It's a strategy rpg game on the DS. you draw symbols to make certain element spells, but if you mix the symbols together you can form some crazy stuff...within the confines of 16-32 bit top view graphics at least...

NoiseHERO
Apr 27, 2011, 09:17 PM
I dunno how it worked out in PSP2...but getting techs based on the discs you found in PSZ wasn't that bad.

Of course, it either felt really cheap and easy, or just not good enough. If they try the leveling thing again I hope it'll be a LOT less cruel and monotonous than it was in PSU...

Ark22
Apr 27, 2011, 09:18 PM
PSP2 was horrible mad for disks.When you played PSO you just had to do Ult mode.PSP2 you had to do multiple levels and tacticals on S

Randomness
Apr 27, 2011, 09:39 PM
PSP2 was horrible mad for disks.When you played PSO you just had to do Ult mode.PSP2 you had to do multiple levels and tacticals on S

PSO, running Ult basically took you through the ENTIRE GAME. So, not necessarily the best comparison.

Also, a fair chunk of the PAs can be gotten at 30 from the trade mission.

Ark22
Apr 27, 2011, 09:43 PM
But isn't the whole idea to feel satisfied that you actually got what you wanted?I know I did when I got my level 30 grants in PSO

Vashyron
Apr 27, 2011, 09:46 PM
I dunno, I think I'd prefer the Disk system, at least with that I can use whatever combination of skills until I find it. Otherwise, while it is guaranteed, I would have to just non stop spam that skill.

•Col•
Apr 27, 2011, 10:05 PM
I think what they need to do (and this already maybe like this based on the combat video) is to make Forces more dynamic. In PSO and PSU you had to stand when casting a spell, you couldn't move or anything (meaning once you casted the spell you stopped.) This made the class slower then the rest.

What I think they need to allow you to do is like when you're using foie, able to run around and fire it. Of course they would need to make some draw backs as it might be a bit OP (depending on how they go about it.)

So really they just need to make Forces faster pace, rather then the slower pace they been before.

Agree or disagree?

I disagree. Hunters will be dashing around, chasing monsters to cut them down... Rangers will run be rolling and running away, shooting at them... Forces should be the class that's just standing there looking badass, causing huge explosions all around.

NoiseHERO
Apr 27, 2011, 10:14 PM
I disagree. Hunters will be dashing around, chasing monsters to cut them down... Rangers will run be rolling and running away, shooting at them... Forces should be the class that's just standing there looking badass, causing huge explosions all around.

Maybe it could depend on the techs...

Though variety of strategies and styles among different techs outside of pushing one button might piss people off.

I can image Fire being the 2nd dot 2nd power house
Earth being the nuker
Maybe lightning could throw some fast movement into the mix or something
Ice being debuff, slow, stop, and quickly slide away
Light being pseudo paladin, as usual
Dark having stronger dots and the traditional OHKO megid

It would be interesting if there were also enchanting skills...Especially if it could replace PSU's annoying "USE THE RIGHT ELEMENT EVEN THOUGH YOU'LL NEED 6 KINDS OF THE SAME WEAPON WITH A GOOD % AT ALL TIMES!!!"

Also bring back ryuker, made me feel useful as a techer besides being a buff slave.

Itoshi
Apr 27, 2011, 10:43 PM
Disk system is the way to go. It allowed you to purchase disks when you first started out, and then use PA Fragments to continue leveling those. You could also have a good chance of finding good disks out on the field. The rate for leveling PA's in PSU was much to slow for me, and it leveling buffs was the most boring thing ever. At least with disks you can make more headway even if its your first character or a side character.

Dongra
Apr 28, 2011, 03:02 AM
You get the same feeling grinding your PAs to the highest level.
Not really. In PSO, if a high level disk dropped I would just think, "Oh, cool. This useful item just happened to drop while I was doing a random run to level up." In PSU, when I leveled Photon Arts to high levels I would think, "Dear God, why the fuck did I just waste all that time to finally make this technique somewhat useful." As long as they don't bring back the stupid "your PA only gets better every ten levels" crap then maybe I can stand to have the leveling system back. Actually, I would prefer both leveling, as long as it is done right, and potential drops.

SS_Death
Apr 28, 2011, 01:12 PM
I will be the first to admit, I hate playing as Forces.

Any kind of magic/technique using class just doesn't agree with me.

However, I've teamed with quite a few, in both PSO and PSU.

I admit, the fact that Forces have to basically stand there like an idiot while they cast means that they can often get left behind by Hunters, and to a lesser extend Rangers, in the group.

The problem is, if you allow them to move and cast techniques there does seem the potential for them becoming very overpowered, as was already pointed out level 30 techs in Episode 1&2 pretty much beat out melee everytime due to their area of effect and damage.

Personally, allowing Forces to run and cast something like foie, or perhaps barta and zonde seems reasonable. It's a relatively simple attack and makes sense that they could cast it on the run.

But, for the bigger stuff I would have said that if you wanted to let them move while casting then something along the lines of a delay would be needed.

So, you can move while building up your rafoie, but at the same time you run the risk of running into danger and loosing it.

Either way, it will be interesting to see how it gets implemented...

batfax
Apr 28, 2011, 01:43 PM
Running around never seemed that important to being a FO, but I can definitely see it as a nice reward for leveling your techs.

Agent Bon
Apr 29, 2011, 02:41 AM
In PSO, Gifoie could be used and then you could run through a group of monsters with flames circling you. I would like to see the return of techs of this nature, and more variety.

lostinseganet
Apr 29, 2011, 06:07 AM
heh maybe forces could have a tp "character magic" and a pp "weapon magic" guage. When you run out of pp you would have to fill it with tp :). 1 tp should be worth more than 1 pp for most weapons. So basically the force weapon is a magic amplifier. The weapon could have a overload setting and over heating setting. Overloading a weapon with attacks it can not handle will make forces look for stronger wands, and slow down the use of nuclear magic attacks. Overheating will prevent spamming of attacks. With these restrictions a force will have to think more about who he or she is fighting that is when elemental percentages come into play. Also this will make using guns or swords more appealing to a force.