Should Casts use the FOrce?

[Niloklives]

I swear to god that "deal with it" bullshit is like TRYING to start a fight. give me one good reason that casts SHOULD be able to use techs. your reasons that they can are just as invalid as the reasons that they cant since it's completely subjective and 100% based on what sega's mythos "flavor of the month" is. They've reworked things, people have thrown out their take on the universe. there's no set science to how anything works and to be so pompous as to think this has anything to do with PSO shows just how short sighted you are. You guys are lucky I'm not a mod or I'd be temp banning every shit starter who decides "deal with it" or "get over yourself" is an appropriate way to have a civil conversation.

btw his "obvious reasons" are that a giant bruiser moo cow beast has no business trying to hide in shadows. spotting a tauren rogue assassin in an alley would be like playing point to your nose. How is "huge monsters make bad rogues" an opinion? Is it also an opinion that water is wet? No offense, but your poor grasp of english seems to make carrying a conversation next to impossible.

[Darki]

Well you just made the point. There are NO reasons for CASTs not being able to use techs except PSO fanboyism.

I'm tired of people pulling out of their asses statements such as those and labelling the opposite option as "retarded" or any other insult.

And please, am I pompous because I think it has to do with PSO? Well give me another reason as for anybody would say so, maybe 1 or 2 people out of 100 in this forum would actually think for any other reason other than "it wasn't in PSO so it shouldn't be in PSO2".

I'm up to an open discussion of the matter, but I do like the idea of CASTs using techs and I don't like that people label my likes as retarded or any other stupidity like that, you know.

And the "deal with it" is not any intention to start a fight, but we've seen that it is already in the game, so anybody who doesn't like it will have to deal with it, like or not, I'm not telling any lie or insulting anybody, it's just a statement of facts.

[Niloklives]

I've seen tons of people make other arguments aside from what you call fanboyism. some people just dont like change.

And no, the point I made is that all bets are off. it's whatever sega says and this time they can use techs. next game they may not. they are consistently inconsistent and there's nothing that suggests that there's any real reason they can use techs this time. you want a reason they shouldn't be able to? techs are this games version of magic and the idea of robots androids or cyborgs being able to use magic is something that is foreign to most people. How often do you see robots that cast spells? There's your reason they shouldn't. The reason they should? sega wants them to? cause you want them to? This has nothing to do with PSO, this has everything to do with traditional sci-fi fantasy.

And you're pompous because you're trying to twist this to make it a PSO purist argument and make anyone who thinks that a cast shouldn't tech out to be stupid.

[Darki]

I don't want to make it a PSO purist argument. I liked PSO and there were things that I'd like back, but not because they're from PSO but because they were good. PS series is not a traditional sci-fi fantasy game, and not only on this matter but in many others. If you wanna give me reasons for it, do as you just did, you actually gave a good point.


FOcast is dumb and even sounds dumb, why couldn't they make the TRAPS return?

PSZ was a perfect game, to me that was the real PSO2, this game feels more like PSU and PSO fused!

Or worse!

PSU2

Things like this, is what I DON'T like.

And please, stop with the adjectives because I didn't call you anything. -_-

[Niloklives]

Right but you're lumping everyone together as you even said that only 1-2% of those who are anti-focast have a good reason for it.

And I hate to break it to you, but androids fighting dragons? light sabers? space elves? Where is it breaking the mold again?

[yoshiblue]

FOcast will probably be just as "bad" of a Force as HUnewearl is at being a Hunter.

Unless they completely rework how forces worked or damage formulas. Maybe their excuse would be a "mana" unit place somewere in their bodys they would use.

[Darki]

Well, most people I've seen talking against FOcasts never gave a reason other than it not existing in PSO, and "not making sense". I didn't mean that everybody against it don't have good reasons, but I'd assume that if you do, you'd tell in a thread that goes about it. I mean, if you have a good reason you won't post that you don't want FOcasts because it "sounds dumb and is not in PSO".

I don't understand the second sentence. I've never seen any other game series other than PS series where they take the fantasy and role playing thing to the sci-fi field, most MMORPGs are just plain fantasy. I won't say there isn't any because I'd be making silly asumptions but I've never seen any other game series where there are spaceships, androids and wizards throwing fireballs in the same line as to make a logic statement where for me a robot shouldn't be able to use magic. I mean, in most role playing games there are actually magically-endowed items with their own magic abilities, same that you can see golems and other magic things that walk on their own, why would you be able to charm a stone to be magic, and not an android?

It all reduces to the fact that there's no reason for it, you can come with a nice story to explain why casts shouldn't be forces, and you can come with another nice story to justify them using. I just don't think any of them are or sound dumb.


Unless they completely rework how forces worked or damage formulas. Maybe their excuse would be a "mana" unit place somewere in their bodys they would use.

If they did it right, and they made a whole group of supportive abbilities other than healing, buffing and cure, they could make FOcasts as the support wizards, it would actually be pretty balancing. Newmans would be nukers, with the most powerful attacks, casts would be good support, and humans the middle field.

[Niloklives]

You also have to understand that not everyone is capable of articulating their thoughts. They may all want to say what I said, but don't know how to say it. I haven't gotten the impression that this was a strictly PSO argument from most anyone. Maybe that's cause "it's just stupid" always read as "it's a foreign concept to me".

Also sci-fi fantasy is an old genre. it's not just video games, but books, cartoons, comics, movies. It spans far beyond the PS games and those of us who have more exposure to it will see this as just plain strange. I remember when I was young, I really was hoping for some kind of FOcast in future PS games and when I got older, and casts actually had the option I was firmly against it. it had nothing to do with PSO, but at the same time, to put it simply, it just felt wrong.

[RenzokukenZ]

In the end, Sega gave them the green-light. You can object to them all you want for whatever reason, but it won't change the fact that they are in.

[Darki]

I understand you completely, but the problem is that in a forum people can only understand what is written, if you call me dumb I'l just read that you called me dumb, even if you intended to write an essay about it. <_<

I'm not a newbie in fantasy and sci-fi but in videogames I've never seen much of the sci-fi concept mixed with magic, and I've read tons of sci-fi and fantasy books, played games, watched films and series, etc. For me it felt fine, and in any case, I don't have any problem with you not feeling right about it, it's your opinion and you're entitled to it but there are many ways to explain that without needing to call it dumb or retarded as many people actually do. That simple thing was my point.

[ARASHIKAGE]

Well you just made the point. There are NO reasons for CASTs not being able to use techs except PSO fanboyism.

I'm tired of people pulling out of their asses statements such as those and labelling the opposite option as "retarded" or any other insult.

And please, am I pompous because I think it has to do with PSO? Well give me another reason as for anybody would say so, maybe 1 or 2 people out of 100 in this forum would actually think for any other reason other than "it wasn't in PSO so it shouldn't be in PSO2".

I'm up to an open idscussion of the matter, but I do like the idea of CASTs using techs and I don't like that people label my likes as retarded or any other stupidity like that, you know.

Alright Darki I'll bite,

I'm not sure if it can be said any better than Nilok did but here we go. You want a reason, after I give you mine then it would be gracious of you to give me yours.

My reason is that PSO is game that spawned all of this online Phantasy Star excitement, it had a very simple triangle. In that triangle they had races befitting from playing up their strengths; on one side of the spectrum we have Newmans, highest MST very powerful with tech damage. On the other end we had Casts, very high ATP very good with weapon damage. Now Newmans could very well play any class in the game with buff/debuffs boosting their attacks(ranger was restricted), and that was the gift they were given along with humans. With the MST both Newmans and Humans could be balanced accordingly. Now we have Casts, they are sort of the specialty character of the three. They may not have buffs but their ATP is already high, they don't gain resta so they have to ration their mates wisely. At this point in the game Casts are just has equal as the other two. But when joined with another race they now become better with the resta aide and the possible shifta/deband aide.

And this is just how PSO worked, anytime a race gained something amazing they also lost something of equal value. Races were balanced in ways beyond PSU's mash of four races and fifteen classes. FOnewearl could cast at boosted range to resta and anti. FOmar had boosted range in Shifta and Deband. Ranger Cast had weapon % boost status effect to arrest (paralyze) while Humans had a lower %. The special attack "demons" would cut the enemies hp by 75% when used by a human, when used by a Cast it's 45%. Always a balance, always a reason to pick one race/class over another. And that reason wasn't solely based on looks or pure superiority, it was much deeper a more custom to your play style.

I wouldn't dispute the fact that Casts can use techs as far as the story goes. These aren't magical spells they are techniques I see no problem with techs flowing from complex AI circuitry.

My issue is this; Casts are made to be powerful with one major downside (no techs), which inspires a choice to be made. However you take away the downside then there is no reason we shouldn't all be Casts (as far as stats go). But techs were bound to weapons in PSU so in order to use techs on a Cast you must nurf you stats and use almost only techs. So in essence you are taking a specially weapon power based class and turning it into it's weakest design. Now I understand many PSU players had fun with this gimmick but in the end it is just that.

PSO2 might have a remedy for this I don't know, it's yet to be seen. If the techs are bound to the FOcast and not the weapon, it would still make them once again the weakest in the FO class (this depending on how that class tree works). But if their weapon selection is descent they might be able to solo very well. I see a lot of potential in PSO2 but my skepticism of course lies in five years wondering why this FOcast ever was created. I can't imagine they would repeat that PSU process.

Darki you defend PSU to the death yet you label many of us "purists". I understand that all of this is a matter of opinion. PSO is to me as PSU is to you, and PSU to me was very fun in it's own way. My simple wish is that you could have known the joys PSO gave us, at it's time it was exciting, ground breaking and it's simple system still holds strong today. I don't want you to conform every aspect of PSO to our new exciting adventure in PSO2, I just want you to know what you missed out on.

[hewitt]

My only reason for disliking FOcasts is the few people that take so much pride and think they're so awesome in being a FOcast. Yes, it's a game, and yes you can play however you want. But I don't want to hear how you're the number #1 of a class that sucks. Same with newman fighmasters that think it's so cool what they're doing

[Pillan]

There are a few obvious issues to Cast not being able to use techniques which made it pretty much impossible for it to happen outside of a minor release like Phantasy Star Zero.

The first is the consideration of the audience. Even though the game is named Phantasy Star Online 2, it was created to attract the audience that played their two most successful games (in Japan), Phantasy Star Universe and Phantasy Star Portable 2. So by removing Force from Cast, you would be offending every new player (and many old players) over the last half-decade.

The second is the class change system, which fits along with the audience issue. It would look really bad in a game to say "you can play one of three races and switch class at any time - unless you play race #3 which can only do two of the three classes and cannot hybridize toward the third." It also creates balance issues as seen in PSO.

And that brings us to the third major issue - balance. No one can really argue that Cast is balanced - they either felt overpowered or underpowered. Yes, they had HP regeneration, higher ATP, higher HP, traps, two immunities, and double special attacks in exchange for lower stat maxes, fewer materials, and no technique access. (Note that Casts in general had lower ATA than their human equivalents by the GC version.) However, I would argue that being able to instant kill a quarter of the enemies on ep4 Ultimate with Sinow Beats Blades in less than one full special combo is fairly overpowered. Not to mention that RAcast, the male Cast Ranger, had the highest HP in the game and RAcaseal, the female Cast Ranger, had the highest DFP in the game.

The balance made the choice of playing Cast as simple as it is now - do you plan to play online with someone that can cast Shifta? Then play Cast. Or do you want to play alone or do the occasional gimicky damage with Elysion or Heaven's Punisher? Then play something else. The only difference is that most of us were too young at the time to notice an elitist culture outside of the occasional guilds and challenge mode.

By reducing the difference to something less extreme - more like the human/Newman balance, it becomes much easier to not have a split so in favor of Cast as everything else. At least in a case where they can use techniques you will not have Casts doing 30-40% more damage than everything else in a party.

Personally, I would rather have Cast as 10% better than human at melee and ranged combat and 20% worse at tech than 30% better at melee and ranged combat and 100% worse at tech because then I will feel less like the human is a complete waste of space.

I have to say that I like the design choices they have gone with so far in the game. I would like to see more of the guns and tech system to see how it compares to melee though.

[Darki]

Alright Darki I'll bite,
Darki you defend PSU to the death yet you label many of us "purists". I understand that all of this is a matter of opinion. PSO is to me as PSU is to you, and PSU to me was very fun in it's own way. My simple wish is that you could have known the joys PSO gave us, at it's time it was exciting, ground breaking and it's simple system still holds strong today. I don't want you to conform every aspect of PSO to our new exciting adventure in PSO2, I just want you to know what you missed out on.

Do you see me defending PSU to death as in a purist way?

I'm the first one who barks about how crap PSU is in many subjects, but that doesn't mean that I can't see the pros and cons objectively.

I've never put PSU in my arguments, but I love how people starts saying things like "put all from PSO and throw PSU content/ideas to the trash" just out of the "purist" opinion, as you say. I don't see why CASTs shouldn't be able to use techs, and I actually see a nice balancing reason for them to be.

If CASTs are indeed very weak using techs that means the FOcast is not going to be a nuker, is probably going to rely on other weapons and use techs for SEs and support, which for me is just fine because that way there can be class/race combinations more offensive oriented, like newman forces, and it can also mean that there will be a balanced race/class, for example human FOs.

It's true that this might have been the "ideal" setup in PSU if it wasn't crapped by bad updates, but I'm not actually saying that "It's good because it's like that in PSU", like many are saying with the opposite argument.

So stop putting words in my posts that I didn't say. I've never referenced PSU for my arguments in this matter, and I've never gone against PSO aspects. I'm against "this is bad because it wasn't in PSO/PSU" arguments.

[Enforcer MKV]

I kinda feel like throwing my opinion into the water....

I'm looking forward to allowing CASTs to use Techs. The reason? Well, I like robots, and I've always had the medic mentality of trying to keep people alive in games. Personally, this lets me have fun and play how I want to.

I've already got my character figured out, based on the prelims.

RACAST with a sub class (if I understand the setup right) of FOCAST. So, I'll be able to use my guns, but still (hopefully) be able to cast resta, to save someones life and therefore their grade, as has been recently revealed.

I do understand some of the arguments that people are making against it (mind you, I didn't read all of the tread). I mean, CASTs are giant walking piles of metal. It doesn't really make sense for them to be able to heal in the same way as organics. Then again, this is a sci-fi / fantasy game, so it's possible, albeit implausible.

I, for one, am looking forward to being able to heal others while playing as a mechanical gunwielder.

[NoiseHERO]

Well

TECHS are Science

CASTs are Science

PSO2 has FOCAST

Deal with it.

[Enforcer MKV]

Well

TECHS are Science
CASTs are Science

PSO2 has FOCAST

Deal with it.

....I thought Techniques were magic

.....Oh, wait....."Tech".....haha, I see what you did there.

[Darki]

....I thought Techniques were magic

.....Oh, wait....."Tech".....haha, I see what you did there.

Well if they're using the same terminology from other PS games, theoretically technics are not magic, because in old PS series there was magic AND technics.

Supposedly techs are elemental photons from air drawn together using your mental strenght, or something on the lines.

[Niloklives]

That was really only PS4 that did that. They separated techniques and skills there. but prior to that it was all techs.

[Darki]

Yeah but wasn't it in PSO or PSU where they gave that explanation? I guess it was in PSU then. In any case, even if it was magic I still think it's just fine for robots to use magic, even if you take all sci-fi legacy and fantasy there to compare.

I mean, in most fantasy games you can find the typical "awesome-talking rod" or the "orb-that-shoots-fireballs". Why couldn't humans charm CASTs when they build them so they can use spells? <_< They're "things", and in most fantasy games, things can be enchanted. There are even magical beings like golems and other things like that. Consider a CAST a golem made with metal and screws instead of mud and rock.

[r00tabaga]

Can we officially close this thread? No need to keep having it bumped.

[Niloklives]

Yeah but wasn't it in PSO or PSU where they gave that explanation? I guess it was in PSU then. In any case, even if it was magic I still think it's just fine for robots to use magic, even if you take all sci-fi legacy and fantasy there to compare.

I mean, in most fantasy games you can find the typical "awesome-talking rod" or the "orb-that-shoots-fireballs". Why couldn't humans charm CASTs when they build them so they can use spells? <_< They're "things", and in most fantasy games, things can be enchanted. There are even magical beings like golems and other things like that. Consider a CAST a golem made with metal and screws instead of mud and rock.

If you mean why can't a cast be imbued with mystical energy, there's as much room for debate there as the human mind can fathom. I'm not even going to touch on it because I know SOMEONE will want to argue it to death. The point here is it's all fiction and the limitations are just as convoluted as the story itself. It's just not worth getting into it, however the point here is that there are plenty of reasons to feel uncomfortable with the transition and the separation of magic and techs is not something that is a constant within the PS series.