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View Full Version : Have enemy health bar!?



AztecZombie813
May 19, 2011, 04:52 PM
do you it will be cool if the enemy had a some kind of health meter or status like 100/100? if if they did it could be toggle if you want it or not

NoiseHERO
May 19, 2011, 05:07 PM
I think it would be cool, if there was some sort of item slot/CAST ability that had scan

It is annoying not knowing an enemies HP in RPG's...

But in PS games you kinda just plow through monsters and bosses easily anyway. So even if it were toggle on/off, late game probably nobody will use it.

Ffuzzy-Logik
May 19, 2011, 05:17 PM
Do I it will be cool?

Maybe.

Niered
May 19, 2011, 05:55 PM
A health bar, or at least some indicator of the health left of an enemy would be a solid improvement. You ever wonder why RPG's in general typically eschew them in favor of simply throwing nearly meaningless damage numbers around? Simple. It's instant gratification. Like winning a slot machine.

It's so abused by eastern RPGs its not even funny. You cant strategize around keeping your player on top of an enemy thats near death to be effective, but HOT DAMN LOOKIT DEM CRIT NUMBERS.

•Col•
May 19, 2011, 06:06 PM
I voted no. I kinda liked some of that uncertainty. Plus I really liked the various indicators they used for PSO bosses... Like how when the Dragon roared and started his underground attacks, he was getting close to dying... De Rol Le's headpiece/armor being blown away... The screens/parts of Vol Opt being destroyed... You get the idea.

These indicators gave you some idea of how much health the boss has left... They strayed from this in PSU quite a bit, and I hope they bring it back. I know in PSP2i they changed the PSO Dragon so that when you do a certain amount of damage, you can destroy parts of his body... So yeah, I really do hope that kinda stuff is in PSO2.

Zyrusticae
May 19, 2011, 06:14 PM
I voted no. I kinda liked some of that uncertainty. Plus I really liked the various indicators they used for PSO bosses... Like how when the Dragon roared and started his underground attacks, he was getting close to dying... De Rol Le's headpiece/armor being blown away... The screens/parts of Vol Opt being destroyed... You get the idea.
Yeessssss. THIS is what needs to return in the new boss fights; stuff that actually adds to the battle in actual, tangible ways and increases immersion simultaneously.

The PSU boss fights are so terribly vanilla it hurts. PSO2 needs to return to the flavor of the original, and possibly improve upon it.

Bayi
May 19, 2011, 06:19 PM
Let CASTs see enemy health only and you have my vote.

Broken_L_button
May 19, 2011, 06:21 PM
For me, I vote no for 2 kinds of reasons;

-aesthetics: I prefer to have my screen cluttered as less as possible.

-strategy/general combat: I liked how in PSO/PSU/PSP2 when you encountered an enemy for the first time and didn't know how much it took to bring them down. It brought that bit of "trial and error" that makes combat and strategic planning more of a learning experience. And then there's the fact that roughly remembering enemy HP values isn't that hard. Be it in HP points, number of N, H or S attacks or chain number/PA, you end up knowing how much endurance that one enemy has while as you fight it.


These indicators gave you some idea of how much health the boss has left... They strayed from this in PSU quite a bit, and I hope they bring it back. I know in PSP2i they changed the PSO Dragon so that when you do a certain amount of damage, you can destroy parts of his body... So yeah, I really do hope that kinda stuff is in PSO2.

That change to the PSO dragon was there since PSP2 actually. In that game, every single boss (except Shizuru, Magashi and maybe Vivienne) has a slight change in their attack pattern when reaching 50%-25% HP. Some of them have little "tells" too. All the dragon bosses roar, Dol Vaveer changes color, Olga Spiritos has parts of the crest on its sphere blow off (and damage the player, lawl), etc.

•Col•
May 19, 2011, 06:39 PM
That change to the PSO dragon was there since PSP2 actually. In that game, every single boss (except Shizuru, Magashi and maybe Vivienne) has a slight change in their attack pattern when reaching 50%-25% HP. Some of them have little "tells" too. All the dragon bosses roar, Dol Vaveer changes color, Olga Spiritos has parts of the crest on its sphere blow off (and damage the player, lawl), etc.

Well regardless, I was just saying that I'm happy that they brought it back, and hopefully again it stays in PSO2. I haven't played PSP2 in a few months, so I couldn't remember if the damage to the Dragon was in it as well. I definitely do remember the attack patterns of bosses changing now that I think about it, though.

And just a side note... Shizuru did kind of have an indicator as well (at least the final battle with him did). You can destroy his clones, so once you get rid of them, you know you're getting close to beating him.

Broken_L_button
May 19, 2011, 06:47 PM
True. That's one blatantly obvious indicator now that I think about it. Them clones :<

t3hVeG
May 19, 2011, 07:15 PM
DO NOT WANT!

RemiusTA
May 19, 2011, 11:07 PM
let it be a cast ability. Nuff said.

Don't need a health bar. They can do all sorts of things to signify that the enemy is at low health without flat-out telling you.

Sord
May 19, 2011, 11:08 PM
I voted no. I kinda liked some of that uncertainty. Plus I really liked the various indicators they used for PSO bosses... Like how when the Dragon roared and started his underground attacks, he was getting close to dying... De Rol Le's headpiece/armor being blown away... The screens/parts of Vol Opt being destroyed... You get the idea.

These indicators gave you some idea of how much health the boss has left... They strayed from this in PSU quite a bit, and I hope they bring it back. I know in PSP2i they changed the PSO Dragon so that when you do a certain amount of damage, you can destroy parts of his body... So yeah, I really do hope that kinda stuff is in PSO2.

Pretty much my sentiments on the matter.

NoiseHERO
May 19, 2011, 11:23 PM
Wait PSU had the bosses' low health warnings too... Let's not jump into giving PSO TOO much credit...

Just that the bosses difficulty didn't increase that much. It wasn't as great, but they didn't stray THAT far.

Syl
May 20, 2011, 04:13 AM
A toggle would be nice. After doing a couple of runs though, you quickly learn the approximate amount of damage a mob will have to take before it dies.

It wouldn't be game-breaking, and giving it as an option wouldn't hurt either. Though I would like it if it became a visual aspect via wounds/broken body parts/etc.

But I'm guessing they won't have one at all.

r00tabaga
May 20, 2011, 07:06 AM
Voted no health bar. Not needed IMO but, I am now intrigued by the comment about having it seen by Casts only. They could see traps...why not this? It would be cool I guess.

Dragwind
May 20, 2011, 08:17 AM
I would say making it an optional ability (perhaps slot unit?) wouldn't hurt at all. It could potentially serve some sort of use.

Zaix
May 20, 2011, 09:04 AM
I always liked health bars in games, but I can see how they aren't really needed in this.

yoshiblue
May 20, 2011, 09:56 AM
No to health bars, yes to cosmetic damage/injury.

XxGoregrinderxX
May 20, 2011, 10:05 AM
I voted for TOGGLE ON/OFF

At the lower levels it would be very helpful for beginners.
But in the later levels you're rushing through the enemies.
No Matter which Race.

lostinseganet
May 20, 2011, 10:51 AM
Yes but you would need to scan them to get it. Scans should not always give the desired result. The should have some kind of risk too. Perhaps robots could disable abilities and mags

NoiseHERO
May 20, 2011, 01:22 PM
Maybe it can be an item, kinda like trap vision.

Sord
May 20, 2011, 01:26 PM
I have a feeling if it were an item a large portion of the populace would let it go unused unless it included other scan abilities like displaying elemental strength/weakness. But even stuff like that gets circumvented a lot once enemy databases have been made and people just start checking those. That said, if we absolutely had to have health bars in there some way, I'd rather it be that or toggling it.

NoiseHERO
May 20, 2011, 01:34 PM
I have a feeling if it were an item a large portion of the populace would let it go unused unless it included other scan abilities like displaying elemental strength/weakness. But even stuff like that gets circumvented a lot once enemy databases have been made and people just start checking those. That said, if we absolutely had to have health bars in there some way, I'd rather it be that or toggling it.

Kinda like trap vision!!! 8D

Seriously I've only used trap vision like twice in the entire PS series...

Once time out of curisity and the other on accident.

Just so the option is there, is all... I'd probably only use it when fighting really hard bosses.

RemiusTA
May 20, 2011, 01:55 PM
Wait PSU had the bosses' low health warnings too... Let's not jump into giving PSO TOO much credit...

Just that the bosses difficulty didn't increase that much. It wasn't as great, but they didn't stray THAT far.


The PSU bosses most definitely did, but none of them were particularly dangerous. I blame the way they programmed the bosses for this, really. De Ragan, for instance, instead of shooting his immensely useless fire beam at you, shoots the less cool looking but actually dangerous fire breath at you. Still easy to dodge for anyone who sees it coming, though. I dont remember if Ragnus does the same thing. But compared to PSO's more cinematic boss changes (Dragon going underground, De Rol Le's lights, Vol Op changing form, 3rd Form falz using Megid and soul link), PSU really didn't do much.


They need to make sure the enemies start getting harder as they're about to die. But the bosses need to do something drastic every time.


There has never been a PSO boss moment that trumped the moment i saw the Gol Dragon go underground, waited for him to do his swirly thingie, and instead watched as he emerged with a copy of himself. That shit was awesome (2 copies on Vhard+). PSO2 needs to step their boss game up, big time. Aside from the Final Bosses, i'd say Gol Dragon was definitely my favorite. I expected him to just be a reskin with stronger moves...and BOY was i wrong. Was definitely not the same boss.


I liked the PSU dragons, but they were FAR too sluggish to really feel like real dragons. The PSP2 dragon was fun to fight, but didn't feel like he had any kind of weight to him like the PSU one did.

Like i said before, PSU's biggest issue with bosses is that they were treated as simply giant enemies, and not BOSSES. The lot of them were boring, especially all the mechanical ones. 80% of them were just annoying as hell to fight. PSO2 needs to copy off PSO, and get CREATIVE with the boss designs. They tried to with De Rol Le on AotI, but failed pretty hard, since he was still just annoying instead of epic.

NoiseHERO
May 20, 2011, 02:05 PM
The PSU bosses most definitely did, but none of them were particularly dangerous. I blame the way they programmed the bosses for this, really. De Ragan, for instance, instead of shooting his immensely useless fire beam at you, shoots the less cool looking but actually dangerous fire breath at you. Still easy to dodge for anyone who sees it coming, though. I dont remember if Ragnus does the same thing. But compared to PSO's more cinematic boss changes (Dragon going underground, De Rol Le's lights, Vol Op changing form, 3rd Form falz using Megid and soul link), PSU really didn't do much.


They need to make sure the enemies start getting harder as they're about to die. But the bosses need to do something drastic every time.


There has never been a PSO boss moment that trumped the moment i saw the Gol Dragon go underground, waited for him to do his swirly thingie, and instead watched as he emerged with a copy of himself. That shit was awesome (2 copies on Vhard+). PSO2 needs to step their boss game up, big time. Aside from the Final Bosses, i'd say Gol Dragon was definitely my favorite. I expected him to just be a reskin with stronger moves...and BOY was i wrong. Was definitely not the same boss.


I liked the PSU dragons, but they were FAR too sluggish to really feel like real dragons. The PSP2 dragon was fun to fight, but didn't feel like he had any kind of weight to him like the PSU one did.

Like i said before, PSU's biggest issue with bosses is that they were treated as simply giant enemies, and not BOSSES. The lot of them were boring, especially all the mechanical ones. 80% of them were just annoying as hell to fight. PSO2 needs to copy off PSO, and get CREATIVE with the boss designs. They tried to with De Rol Le on AotI, but failed pretty hard, since he was still just annoying instead of epic.

Blegh don't remind me... I never wanna have to fight that one mech boss from PSU ever again...especially the one in the desert. I can definitely agree with Gol Dragon being one of the better PSO bosses...I mean he comes out of a giant TV screen!

When Playing PSU for the first time, a number of bosses did feel cinematic...like when the dragons grounded and everything is all chaotic, but then it takes off for the first time and it's all quiet as your part tries to chase it down. but after about 20 times it was just "ehn." So I hope they do make the bosses a little more...memorable and strategic even.

More strategic than just "shoot the wings so it'll crash land!"

Sord
May 20, 2011, 02:32 PM
When Playing PSU for the first time, a number of bosses did feel cinematic...like when the dragons grounded and everything is all chaotic, but then it takes off for the first time and it's all quiet as your part tries to chase it down. but after about 20 times it was just "ehn." So I hope they do make the bosses a little more...memorable and strategic even.

More strategic than just "shoot the wings so it'll crash land!"

There's really only so much they can do with that. They could make the greatest boss battle in the world, but Phantasy Star is an RPG and inherently grindy. We will more than likely be bum-rushing bosses over and over for rares or experience. They will get old eventually, no matter how good. But yeah, definitely agree Gol Dragon is a good example of a good boss fight for the series (even if it was filled with pain and hurt the first few times I did it, ouph.)

RemiusTA
May 20, 2011, 04:01 PM
PSO did this by making the bosses dynamic in the way you fight them.

PSO's battle engine put alot of emphasis on moving around to avoid getting hit, while PSU kind of just made you smack the enemies until they died. (and it was pointless to avoid damage. if you were close, you were gonna get hit by an unexpected attack.)

They dont have to make the game ALL grindy. They can put some puzzles or difficult enemy combinations in the stage to make you have to think a bit. The boss battles were a reward in PSO, in more ways than simply experience and drops. They were actually fun to fight. And when i got OP on the servers, they were still fun to drop.


PSU had some really difficult enemy combinations, and some really nice AI to certain enemies as well. Thats what i liked about PSU that i hope they bring back in PSO. You know, how certian enemy types would actually form group formations and whatnot.

Sord
May 20, 2011, 04:16 PM
PSO did this by making the bosses dynamic in the way you fight them.

PSO's battle engine put alot of emphasis on moving around to avoid getting hit, while PSU kind of just made you smack the enemies until they died. (and it was pointless to avoid damage. if you were close, you were gonna get hit by an unexpected attack.)

They dont have to make the game ALL grindy. They can put some puzzles or difficult enemy combinations in the stage to make you have to think a bit. The boss battles were a reward in PSO, in more ways than simply experience and drops. They were actually fun to fight. And when i got OP on the servers, they were still fun to drop.


PSU had some really difficult enemy combinations, and some really nice AI to certain enemies as well. Thats what i liked about PSU that i hope they bring back in PSO. You know, how certian enemy types would actually form group formations and whatnot.
I think puzzles would actually be a pretty terrible thing in a game where you run the same missions repeatedly. Even if they were somewhat randomized, you'd get most of it all down eventually and then it'd just be a chore to do them every time. Though now that we have an actual jump, I would like to see some platforming elements.

Group AIs would be nice between different monsters, monsters enact roles as tanks or buffers/healers or something, and which combination of what you get would be randomized a bit per run.

Ffuzzy-Logik
May 20, 2011, 05:05 PM
PSO's battle engine put alot of emphasis on moving around to avoid getting hit, while PSU kind of just made you smack the enemies until they died.Errrr, no. It was pretty much that way for both games. PSO was just attack, attack, attack, block enemy attack, attack, attack, attack, block enemy attack, attack attack, attack over and over again until you fell asleep.

ARASHIKAGE
May 20, 2011, 05:08 PM
This was mentioned on a separate thread already but, I think Casts should have this ability solely. As well as an automatic trap-vision, and many other exclusive abilities to hopefully make up for lack of MST.

It might not be the most usefully ability but at least you could feel cool telling your teammates when the boss is about to die, then others would know when to use super attacks (i.e. PB, SUV...whatever they implement in PSO2).

Nitro Vordex
May 20, 2011, 06:10 PM
Meh. Health bar won't really add anything to the game, especially you could tell when the boss was at a certain health just by it's attack patterns.

Bayi
May 20, 2011, 10:20 PM
To be fair, health bars give an impression of the type of punishment your enemy can take. I'm sorry, but the first time I fought De Rol Le on PSO I had no idea it would have the amount of health it did, and I ended up fighting the bloody worm for nearly fifty minutes.

And I had no impression of when it was going to die because even during the second attack phase, it seemed as if I hadn't really done anything to its vitality whatsoever and took even longer to kill than it did to get it down to round two.

Or how about your time visiting Ultimate Mines and your attacks can hardly scratch the exterior of the basic mob enemy? A health bar can give you an impression of just how many hits of '50' they're going to take before they drop. It gives you the ability to decide if whether or not you're ready for that particular stage or whether or not you can avoid that particular enemy if the room/area doesn't require you to kill all foes.


Make it CAST only so they can give you a reading on how much more an enemy can take, because sometimes it can be very grueling and disconcerting to be fighting a new type of enemy and your efforts seem to be in vain and retreating may be the best option when that enemy in question may just need one more slap to down.

Example? Gibbles.


CASTs should have these type of scouting abilities; they're bloody robots. A Terminator can assess a human being's psychological state by breathing, idle movement and temperature alone--if a CAST can see an invisible floating land mine, I'm sure seeing health and weakness isn't too far out of their reach.


But with what's been said, I enjoy an uncluttered screen as well so a scan/toggle wouldn't be too bad. A CAST can scan an enemy, register its vitality and show a small bar above the enemy in question. Obviously if there's a lot of enemies on screen, there could be an issue with having at least ten individual bars over enemies that you're not even engaging.

Solution? Health bar shows only of the enemy you're attacking. If the original PSO Species/name bar returns, just include the weakness and health in that instead so the actual play screen isn't being obscured.

RemiusTA
May 20, 2011, 11:50 PM
It's an RPG. You dont need a health bar to know when you're doing good damage and when you're not. It comes with the way the numbers increase. Like i said, Health Bars are not the end-all in telling when an enemy is about to die. And besides, it really takes alot of the fun away from battling them if you know exactly when you can and cant be risky with stuff.

Tetsaru
May 21, 2011, 12:39 AM
I'd say only as some sort of perk or ability, or else not at all. Being able to see how much health an enemy has kinda takes away from the thrill of not knowing how well you'll do against new, challenging, or higher-level enemies. Besides, I don't recall any of the other PS games I've played having enemy health bars, and you'd eventually get to the point where such an ability isn't really necessary because 1 - you've already encountered all the enemies in the game and know how to fight them (especially if they're reskins), or 2 - you're strong enough to where those enemies die within a few seconds anyway.

Other than that, I'd still like to see things like what status effects an enemy has on them, good or bad, in some way. As far as elements or enemy types (Native, Altered Beast, etc.), maybe have them hidden at first, and then reveal them later on after you've fought enough of that particular enemy... perhaps the HP bar could be done the same way, but I'm kinda leaning towards no.

Alnet
May 21, 2011, 02:33 AM
I think it'd be a good idea if you could turn it on and off at your leisure. At least for me, I could see reasons to have it on or off at various points.

Like I'd want it off if I'm going into a new area, and I want to have as much surprise as possible with the new environment. Seeing how much damage I'm capable of doing on every individual enemy right from the start makes it seem more "routine." And sure it's a video game, but realistically, if I've never seen this particular creature before, I shouldn't know what it's capable of or how long it should take for me to kill it.

In terms of "routine" again, I would like it on if I'm grinding or powerleveling with a friend. It'd be helpful to know the best way to slaughter enemies in the quickest time for the lowest cost, or how to just barely kill an enemy so that my friend can deliver the final blow.

To be fair, health bars give an impression of the type of punishment your enemy can take. I'm sorry, but the first time I fought De Rol Le on PSO I had no idea it would have the amount of health it did, and I ended up fighting the bloody worm for nearly fifty minutes.

And I had no impression of when it was going to die because even during the second attack phase, it seemed as if I hadn't really done anything to its vitality whatsoever and took even longer to kill than it did to get it down to round two.
Oh, and I totally feel you on this. When I found out that bastard was wearing a mask and had been effectively dealing 0s the whole time, I was pissed. And then it killed me because I'd run out of -mates and TP. But that was solo offline PSO in my case, and since we're going to be seeing way more online play, it shouldn't end up like this. In fact, the adventure of diving headlong into the unknown is half the fun, so long as you're doing it with friends, I think.

NoiseHERO
May 21, 2011, 03:32 AM
It is true that it seemed like that when fighting some bosses the first time, but like Alnet said, that was part of the fun.

I was an offliner so me and my noob friends were all the same level...and it's funny cheering on the one dude that somehow had enough mates to survive.

RemiusTA
May 21, 2011, 12:55 PM
Exactly. Seeing those moments go away would be extremely sad.

I, of course, am a PSO vet, so i have no issue surviving things at low levels, even with a MAG proportional to my level. Me and 3 other friends (one like me, 2 complete PSO noobs) were splitscreening the game on my college campus one day. We eventually got to Falz (they're completely hooked at this point, BTW, despite the game being forever old). Form 2, everyone dies. I picked Ramarl for the first time in my PSO life, and thus was coping with her pathetic weapon damage outside of weapon attacks, extra attacks or techniques.

Long story short, it's the third time we died, and we ran out of money to fund another runthrough off the boss, so we went one last time with all we had. Everyone died...except me. I pretty much knew i was dead and had no TP left, so I whipped out my handgun to go out like a soldier.....

....and he died. I did the victory dance and laughed my ass off, while everyone else looks at the screen like "....are you serious".

Seth Astra
May 21, 2011, 07:17 PM
^This.

In PS and MH games, one of my favorite things is not having a perfect indicator of the enemy's health, and then pulling off some miracle kill on a boss.

moorebounce
May 25, 2011, 12:30 AM
I would like the ability to toggle this option on or off if they include it. Or just have them for boss fights.

yoshiblue
May 25, 2011, 12:52 AM
Yeah, first time fights can be a pain but always reward you with good times.

Off Topic: I was a capture person in MH. Always risky to do stuff on Tri because theres always that one person who is swing happy.

KodiaX987
May 25, 2011, 10:10 AM
Available on some equipment and/or slot modules. No health bar otherwise.

Suppose the items are procedurally generated a la Borderlands, could be one of the available mods.

Purple Lamplight
May 26, 2011, 09:47 AM
No, a enemy health bar would be stupid.

EqualGraphics
May 26, 2011, 12:54 PM
No, think about it, do you want to kill an enemy all day or a health bar?

You'll be playing "lets get this health bar down to zero" instead of "let's kill this f'n thing til it's children feel it"

No thank you on health bar.

NoiseHERO
May 26, 2011, 12:56 PM
I'M GONNA PUNCH THAT HEALTHBAR'S FACE IN DOUGH...!!

AND MAKE GORILLA BISCUITS!!

EqualGraphics
May 26, 2011, 01:03 PM
Any floating numbers or bars should be ONLY for the player and their team.

Make visual damage (i.e. different animations when getting weaker, broken animal armor, parts being torn off, different noises) and leave the data for strategy books and F.A.Q.

RemiusTA
May 26, 2011, 02:36 PM
I think health bars really aren't that good for stuff like this.

I mean, in games like Devil May Cry, when the bosses would COMPLETELY discourage you from ever believing you could finish them if you DIDN'T have a health bar, it's okay. But in a game where chance and surprise is really the leading factor....nah. Especially since this is not Devil May Cry, where 100% of whether or not you get hit depends on your skill level and not stat numbers.

AlexCraig
May 26, 2011, 03:54 PM
I don't really see an enemy health bar as that necissary. I guess if some people want it, they could do a unit or make it an option that can be turned on and off, but I see no use for it with me.