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ARASHIKAGE
May 24, 2011, 12:24 PM
PSU:
Grind max is 10?
Break um and they are gone forever?
Break um and the grind max is decreased by one each break?

PSO:
No break, each individual weapon has their own grind max (hidden potential)?

Does anyone want a mix between the two of these? Or does one favor the other? New ideas are always welcome as well.

I have a strong opinion on this but I want to see what the community says about it.

NoiseHERO
May 24, 2011, 12:33 PM
I don't think ANYONE liked PSU's grind system, only good I got out of it was grinding guns up to a certain non-risky amount and selling them at a high price for quick cash, not having to worry about elemental %.

But I don't like PSO's and PSZ's either, unless it was made so that grinders were made REALLY rare. So people aren't getting smacked around by luck, just time. and if you actually care about your weapon, then it'll be worth using a grinder on it, as opposed to the horrible feeling of GAMBLING on it.

joshboyd1209
May 24, 2011, 01:09 PM
I think the best system you'll find in the series(and the most likely to appear in this game if there even is grinding ) is the one in PSP2/I.

blace
May 24, 2011, 01:20 PM
But the grinding system in PSP2/Infinity was limited. Extend codes were also a pain to get.

joshboyd1209
May 24, 2011, 01:51 PM
But the grinding system in PSP2/Infinity was limited. Extend codes were also a pain to get.
The odds are 3 to 1 that if they implement it they will make it a bit better by having fewer limitations and easier to find extend codes(if they even have extend codes ).

blace
May 24, 2011, 01:55 PM
Well I'm curious if they'll bring back the S Ranked weapons from PSO. Custom name and +200 grind.

•Col•
May 24, 2011, 02:25 PM
Whatever system they use.... I just want something like extend codes to come back. It was neat to be able to use (almost) any weapon you wanted end-game without limiting yourself too much.

I guess it doesn't have to be extend code... Maybe they could just make it so that you can transfer the properties of a weapon to another weapon for aesthetic purposes....

I wanna use DB's Saber... :(

Sord
May 24, 2011, 02:36 PM
I kind of like the way in PSU the max grind limit would go down during a failure. It was dumb that they broke though. At least you'd still be able to keep it as a sort of trophy that you got the rare in the first place if you fail your grinding. I honestly don't feel that you should be able to ramp just any old weapon to endgame levels, that sounds like it would terribly cheapen any late game weapons. Also, PSO has always been about collect-a-thon type rewards. You collect a bunch of various weapons and armours, and try to get better and better ones. That becomes the point at end game (well, outside of just having fun of course.)

Niloklives
May 24, 2011, 03:29 PM
But the grinding system in PSP2/Infinity was limited. Extend codes were also a pain to get.

You could get extend codes through rebirths. It may seem silly, but seeing as the rebirth system is/was easy to abuse, there's no reason not to abuse it.


The odds are 3 to 1 that if they implement it they will make it a bit better by having fewer limitations and easier to find extend codes(if they even have extend codes ).

Where are you getting these numbers from?


I kind of like the way in PSU the max grind limit would go down during a failure. It was dumb that they broke though. At least you'd still be able to keep it as a sort of trophy that you got the rare in the first place if you fail your grinding. I honestly don't feel that you should be able to ramp just any old weapon to endgame levels, that sounds like it would terribly cheapen any late game weapons. Also, PSO has always been about collect-a-thon type rewards. You collect a bunch of various weapons and armours, and try to get better and better ones. That becomes the point at end game (well, outside of just having fun of course.)

Even with extend codes the best weapons were still the best weapons since they could also have extend codes applied to them. The extend codes were more to make weapons someone liked serviceable in late game. The only exception to this that I recall isn't even a real exception since in order to get everything out of it you had to unlock it the same way you had to with the J-sword and then use an extend code afterwards.

JC10001
May 24, 2011, 03:39 PM
I HATE PSU's grinding system with a passion (both before and after AOTI).

For PSO2...I'd like to have the best of both worlds (PSO and PSP2i).

Make it so that you can grind weapons to +99 or something and on the 100th grind use an extend code. Make the grinders drop from any creature but make them about as rare as armor/weapon drop in PSU (rare but not too rare). Make extend codes a rare drop from every boss.

joshboyd1209
May 24, 2011, 04:13 PM
Make it so you can grind weapons to +99 or something and on the 100th grind use an extend code. Make the grinders drop from any creature but make them about as rare as armor/weapon drop in PSU (rare but not too rare). Make extend codes a rare drop from every boss.

I'd much rather pay to upgrade weapons. It is much easier and much less frustrating(especially considering the amount of grinders is limited due to the way/s you can get them. Remember PSP1? )


Where are you getting these numbers from?



I thought you put me on your ignore list. Any ways as for where they come from simple facts. There are principles I do believe that follow my logic. The logic I'm following is simple, it is in human nature. This logic states that it is human nature to better things. As such the odds are that they will make the system better I figure 3 to 1 seems about right if I know the human race they seem to be correct I and I'm pretty certain I know the human nature.

NoiseHERO
May 24, 2011, 04:18 PM
Nilok why'd you question josh? D:

You knew he was going to say something that would massively express he doesn't know what he's talking about but thinks he does. D8

Sord
May 24, 2011, 04:18 PM
Even with extend codes the best weapons were still the best weapons since they could also have extend codes applied to them. The extend codes were more to make weapons someone liked serviceable in late game. The only exception to this that I recall isn't even a real exception since in order to get everything out of it you had to unlock it the same way you had to with the J-sword and then use an extend code afterwards.
That doesn't sound to bad I guess, though I think I'd still be one for min-maxing in that case and just give it to my best weapon rather than one I really like aesthetically (unless it happened to be a fairly small difference between the two.) How did/does rebirthing work in PSP 2/i? I mean, outside the obvious level resets I suppose, are all base stats just naturally stronger? Do you keep all your shit or is it just a replay game+? Haven't touched PSP2 or Infinity.

joshboyd1209
May 24, 2011, 04:22 PM
That doesn't sound to bad I guess, though I think I'd still be one for min-maxing in that case and just give it to my best weapon rather than one I really like aesthetically (unless it happened to be a fairly small difference between the two.) How did/does rebirthing work in PSP 2/i? I mean, outside the obvious level resets I suppose, are all base stats just naturally stronger? Do you keep all your shit or is it just a replay game+? Haven't touched PSP2 or Infinity.
Rebirth is only in Infinity and what it does is it basically gives you an extension to your stats(all of them ) and allows you to re-level your character from level 1 to 50-200 all over again.

Niloklives
May 24, 2011, 04:38 PM
I HATE PSU's grinding system with a passion (both before and after AOTI).

For PSO2...I'd like to have the best of both worlds (PSO and PSP2i).

Make it so that you can grind weapons to +99 or something and on the 100th grind use an extend code. Make the grinders drop from any creature but make them about as rare as armor/weapon drop in PSU (rare but not too rare). Make extend codes a rare drop from every boss.

grind to 100? X_x the reason that worked ok in PSO was each weapon had its own limits and grinders that could raise the value by as much as 3 were plentiful. additionally each point was only worth 2 att, so +100 meant +200 attack. the reason this doesn't work is because weapons with a high RoF become ridiculously OP hence the limitations and weapon based growth. 100 is just too much.


Rebirth is only in Infinity and what it does is it basically gives you an extension to your stats(all of them ) and allows you to re-level your character from level 1 to 50-200 all over again.

incorrect. Rebirth gives you a certain number of points based on your current level which you can allocate to your stats permanently at the cost of resetting your level. It does not just give you bonus stats in all directions. Each stat has a cap, so you can't rebirth endlessly to have a level 1 with 9999 in each stat.


That doesn't sound to bad I guess, though I think I'd still be one for min-maxing in that case and just give it to my best weapon rather than one I really like aesthetically (unless it happened to be a fairly small difference between the two.) How did/does rebirthing work in PSP 2/i? I mean, outside the obvious level resets I suppose, are all base stats just naturally stronger? Do you keep all your shit or is it just a replay game+? Haven't touched PSP2 or Infinity.


A fully rebirthed character is still OP, but not godlike. For example, my female cast Has 220 max PP from rebirths (+50) and at lvl 1 with everything capped in rebirths and lvl 30 Hunter She has just over 600 hp, 400atp, 330ata, etc. crazy strong for a lvl 1, but nothing that says she could hold her own on a high level S or infinity mission. They keep everything they had before you rebirthed: all gear, all job levels, all missions. The only things that gets reset are the character's level and the stats that came from the levels themselves.

Sord
May 24, 2011, 05:08 PM
incorrect. Rebirth gives you a certain number of points based on your current level which you can allocate to your stats permanently at the cost of resetting your level. It does not just give you bonus stats in all directions. Each stat has a cap, so you can't rebirth endlessly to have a level 1 with 9999 in each stat.

A fully rebirthed character is still OP, but not godlike. For example, my female cast Has 220 max PP from rebirths (+50) and at lvl 1 with everything capped in rebirths and lvl 30 Hunter She has just over 600 hp, 400atp, 330ata, etc. crazy strong for a lvl 1, but nothing that says she could hold her own on a high level S or infinity mission. They keep everything they had before you rebirthed: all gear, all job levels, all missions. The only things that gets reset are the character's level and the stats that came from the levels themselves.

Keeping the job levels sounds nice. Though since you keep all your stuff it seems like rebirths would become progressively easier and easier to play through (and I suppose this would lead to more extend tickets?) Are there caps on weapon stats as well? 'Bout how long does it take to a rebirth after the initial first one?

Ffuzzy-Logik
May 24, 2011, 05:28 PM
grind to 100? X_x the reason that worked ok in PSO was each weapon had its own limits and grinders that could raise the value by as much as 3 were plentiful. additionally each point was only worth 2 att, so +100 meant +200 attack. the reason this doesn't work is because weapons with a high RoF become ridiculously OP hence the limitations and weapon based growth. 100 is just too much.The simple solution would be to make the stats increased specific to the weapon. Maybe have grinding increase accuracy for such weapons. There a lot of ways to balance this, easily.

ShinMaruku
May 24, 2011, 05:44 PM
No to any of em. Developers from Japan don't do it right

Niloklives
May 24, 2011, 06:47 PM
Keeping the job levels sounds nice. Though since you keep all your stuff it seems like rebirths would become progressively easier and easier to play through (and I suppose this would lead to more extend tickets?) Are there caps on weapon stats as well? 'Bout how long does it take to a rebirth after the initial first one?

well extend codes can only be used once on a given weapon, so weapon stats are pretty much locked. think of an extend code as a final grind - from 10 to 11.

rebirths are dependant on you. you can rebirth as early as level 50 but you dont see any real point values from that so you would only start around lvl 100 unless you were just after extend codes. extend codes are really cheap in rebirths though. level progression is psp2/i is much faster than in psu. getting to 100 takes much less time so its not a major grind. plus there are ways to get exp bonuses. that said each rebirth will make fighting easier which leads to faster leveling.

Shadownami92
May 24, 2011, 07:34 PM
What if they made it so rather than the grinder failing and breaking the weapon that the grinder itself just has a chance of not working all together? Nothing happens to your weapon, but your left without that grinder if it fails. Then just make it so grinders don't drop like crazy which I seemed to have noticed in most of the recent games I've played and it could work pretty well.

Ffuzzy-Logik
May 24, 2011, 08:42 PM
What if they make it so it isn't a pointless way of artificially extending the game by frustrating players repeatedly?

That'd be cool.

ShadowDragon28
May 24, 2011, 09:36 PM
i'd prefer if boosting a weapon would be done like in the original PSO. Just use a mono, di, or tri grinder at anytime on any weapon you want without worrying about ruining that very rare weapon that took 900+ hrs just to find...

blace
May 25, 2011, 12:21 AM
I just remembered a system in a game I used to play, basically you would upgrade a weapon to +10, and it basically follows a rebirth system similar to extend codes in PSP2/i, the only difference from that was you can continue to upgrade to +10 again.

The only limitation to that system was that any weapon you upgraded doubled its minimum level requirement, i.e. level 60 to level 120, along with other materials needed to upgrade past its normal capacity.

moorebounce
May 25, 2011, 12:25 AM
I would like to have PSO weapon grinding but make the max grind around 25 - 30.

They should also come up with a way we can put elements in any weapon on the fly too. That way hunters and rangers weapons aren't as lethal with the wrong element equipped. Sort of like how a force has to use different elements on different enemies.

Miyoko
May 25, 2011, 02:35 AM
I hated PSU's grinding, and I'm not fond of extend codes either, but...

Maybe they could just make it so that you can transfer the properties of a weapon to another weapon for aesthetic purposes....


This, I like.

Milla
May 25, 2011, 05:29 AM
I like PSP2's system the best, you had no worries of breaking your favorite weps and it kinda made meseta useful at high Lvs.

Extend codes are supposed to be hard to get right? Even still you could run chall mode in what an hour and a half to get 3 so it wasnt too bad.

BIG OLAF
May 25, 2011, 12:01 PM
I also say PSP2/i's grinding was good. Pay meseta (the "better" the weapon, the more meseta it costs) for each grind, with the price increasing after every grind. That way, there's no chance of failure, and no disappointment to players.

However, I think SEGA should implement some sort of downside. Doesn't have to be too brutal, but just something for players to be fearful for when grinding, so grinding isn't 100% stress-free.

Zaix
May 25, 2011, 01:08 PM
I also say PSP2/i's grinding was good. Pay meseta (the "better" the weapon, the more meseta it costs) for each grind, with the price increasing after every grind. That way, there's no chance of failure, and no disappointment to players.

However, I think SEGA should implement some sort of downside. Doesn't have to be too brutal, but just something for players to be fearful for when grinding, so grinding isn't 100% stress-free.

I would be fine if it could just fail with no consequence other than throwing more meseta away.

joshboyd1209
May 25, 2011, 01:35 PM
I also say PSP2/i's grinding was good. Pay meseta (the "better" the weapon, the more meseta it costs) for each grind, with the price increasing after every grind. That way, there's no chance of failure, and no disappointment to player.

Actually it was the rarity over the weapon power. They did it that way so that they didn't have to come up with different prices for each individual weapon's grinding fee.

•Col•
May 25, 2011, 01:40 PM
Actually it was the rarity over the weapon power. They did it that way so that they didn't have to come up with different prices for each individual weapon's grinding fee.

Not like it matters. The strongest weapons were S-ranks anyway.

joshboyd1209
May 25, 2011, 01:41 PM
Not like it matters. The strongest weapons were S-ranks anyway.
Yeah. Does any one know any good missions to farm meseta I still can't manage to get enough to upgrade my WoG up to level 10.

•Col•
May 25, 2011, 01:50 PM
Yeah. Does any one know any good missions to farm meseta I still can't manage to get enough to upgrade my WoG up to level 10.

Uh, I can't really remember that well... But I remember I pretty much only did story missions and I had enough to fully upgrade several weapons..

Tetsaru
May 25, 2011, 03:09 PM
I'd prefer they just stick with the old PSO/PSZ-style of grinding: find a Mono/Di/Trigrinder as a rare drop, then just use it on the weapon or armor you want to boost. No weapons breaking, no synthing grinder bases, no taking the weapon to a specific NPC, no waiting for a max photon fortune day or event boost, or any of that stupid timesink luck-based bullshit that was in PSU.

Either that, or make a new, FUN grinding/synthing system that doesn't suck... perhaps something mini-game or skill-based, like having to use a grindstone or hammer blow at the right moments to strengthen the item, kinda like how some of Fable 3's minigames were:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeT4KGYq920

moorebounce
May 25, 2011, 03:37 PM
I'd prefer they just stick with the old PSO/PSZ-style of grinding: find a Mono/Di/Trigrinder as a rare drop, then just use it on the weapon or armor you want to boost. No weapons breaking, no synthing grinder bases, no taking the weapon to a specific NPC, no waiting for a max photon fortune day or event boost, or any of that stupid timesink luck-based bullshit that was in PSU.

Either that, or make a new, FUN grinding/synthing system that doesn't suck... perhaps something mini-game or skill-based, like having to use a grindstone or hammer blow at the right moments to strengthen the item, kinda like how some of Fable 3's minigames were.

Co-signed

I'd love they did something like Fable but then you would have people upset that they didn't have the skill to upgrade their weapons like most other gamers.

Tetsaru
May 25, 2011, 03:46 PM
Co-signed

I'd love they did something like Fable but then you would have people upset that they didn't have the skill to upgrade their weapons like most other gamers.

Well personally, I'd rather it be to where people have to work to EARN their weapons rather than have everything easily handed over to them, but that's just me. I guess as long as "rares" aren't as common as they became in AotI during events and what not, and then people could just buy them from player shops for next to nothing. The best items in the game just shouldn't be that accessible, in my opinion.

EqualGraphics
May 26, 2011, 01:23 PM
I have one suggestion for grinding options that would make finding weapons a little more fun.

Make every regular weapon have a random grinder limit or no limit sometimes.

I say this because in PSO, once you found a good enough weapon, you just ignore the regular drop (not the ????) forever. You may find a Saber +1 with a grinder limit of 6 or a Sword +3 with no limit.

Just a thought.

RemiusTA
May 26, 2011, 02:32 PM
I don't think ANYONE liked PSU's grind system, only good I got out of it was grinding guns up to a certain non-risky amount and selling them at a high price for quick cash, not having to worry about elemental %.

But I don't like PSO's and PSZ's either, unless it was made so that grinders were made REALLY rare. So people aren't getting smacked around by luck, just time. and if you actually care about your weapon, then it'll be worth using a grinder on it, as opposed to the horrible feeling of GAMBLING on it.


Pretty much. PSO's system was nice and simple. Find the grinder, equip the weapon, gain a few points of damage.

I dont know about grinding, but they need to combine the Tekker system with PSU's shitty ass Synthesis system. (And make it how PSU SHOULD have had it -- combine those useless materials into your weapon to give it a special abilitiy.)

I want them to stray as FAR AWAY from % chances as they can. The only time i want to have a % chance to do something is while Synthing something (that wont make my item feel useless if i fail), and while im hunting for an item to drop.

Fuck PSU's grinding and elemental % system. It was trash.

Anon_Fire
May 26, 2011, 06:09 PM
Pretty much. PSO's system was nice and simple. Find the grinder, equip the weapon, gain a few points of damage.

I dont know about grinding, but they need to combine the Tekker system with PSU's shitty ass Synthesis system. (And make it how PSU SHOULD have had it -- combine those useless materials into your weapon to give it a special abilitiy.)

I want them to stray as FAR AWAY from % chances as they can. The only time i want to have a % chance to do something is while Synthing something (that wont make my item feel useless if i fail), and while im hunting for an item to drop.

Fuck PSU's grinding and elemental % system. It was trash.

PSP2's Weapon Grinding gave meseta a real purpose, I kinda liked it better than PSU's.

RemiusTA
May 26, 2011, 06:43 PM
There isn't a grinding system on an MMO that isnt Final Fantasy XIV that's more gay than PSUs.


Okay im lying, but seriously, it was trash.

r00tabaga
May 26, 2011, 07:15 PM
I don't understand what was so happy about PSU grinding.

ARASHIKAGE
May 27, 2011, 02:06 PM
I want them to stray as FAR AWAY from % chances as they can. The only time i want to have a % chance to do something is while Synthing something (that wont make my item feel useless if i fail), and while im hunting for an item to drop.

Fuck PSU's grinding and elemental % system. It was trash.

I wholeheartedly agree sir!

It was never a fun time heading down to the respected planet store with a hand full of grinders (3* luck) and our favorite weapons. Because after all that it's out of our hands, and the odds system never seemed accurate. Even with great grade grinders and a solid system of using them, it always felt like dumb luck.

Also it was very stressful. It's like playing the lottery, only if you lose instead of buying a new car they destroy your old car. Over the years in PSU I watched players quit time and again over this grind system, it simply has to go.

dooby613
Jul 7, 2011, 10:32 AM
I liked PSO's system just fine and wouldn't mind a repeat. I guess on this subject I'm one of those guys who would be happy with pso hd remix(isn't bb already hd?).

Hotobu
Jul 11, 2011, 07:45 AM
What about a mix of old and new?

Weapons go up to a grind of +XX, and grinders range from 1-4, with the 4 being a very rare drop. The 1-3 grinders will only add +1 to a weapon, and the better the grinder the better the chance of getting a bonus. If you fail, however, you lose a bonus = to the level of grinder. i.e. Your weapon is +8, you use a +3 and it fails, so it goes back to +5. The level 4 grinder however will have a 100% chance of success and add +2.

This seems like a good compromise to me. You don't break a weapon (which was the most retarded fucking thing ever), and you don't lose weapon potential.

Hrith
Jul 11, 2011, 08:42 AM
The grinding in PSP2/PSP2i was incredibly bad.
Random figures, poor stat gains, and extend codes were the worst idea ever. I really hope they do not come back.

I also heartily agree that a weapon should never lose its potential. When failing a grind in PSU AoI, the max you could get was 9/9 (break twice -> 8/8, etc.) and that was just as bad as losing the weapon altogether if it was an incredibly rare weapon.

Finding a weapon with an absurdly low drop rate should not be coupled with the odds of that weapon never attaining full potential.
No game should have luck play such a big part, and PSU was really, really bad with that (drop %, synthesis %, elemental %, grind %).

Hotobu
Jul 11, 2011, 08:54 AM
I can pretty much deal with anything short of losing a weapon, and losing its potential.

"HEY YOU FOUND THE ULTRA RARE STAFF OF ASSWHOMPING!"

*Breaks after grinding*

FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!

Who's dumbass idea was this? Losing potential is slightly better, but not by much.

Hrith
Jul 11, 2011, 08:57 AM
Especially when some rare weapons can have a very big bonus on the tenth grind, and then they released abilities to make 10/10 weapons even stronger, making losing potential en even more dire problem >_>

RemiusTA
Jul 11, 2011, 02:35 PM
I can pretty much deal with anything short of losing a weapon, and losing its potential.

"HEY YOU FOUND THE ULTRA RARE STAFF OF ASSWHOMPING!"

*Breaks after grinding*

FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!

Who's dumbass idea was this? Losing potential is slightly better, but not by much.


i'd say it's really not much better. Who wants to buy a house and then have its value decrease everytime they try to add-on to it?

yoshiblue
Jul 11, 2011, 04:02 PM
If its your first house sure. Other wise no.

+ no to % grinds.

•Col•
Jul 11, 2011, 09:50 PM
The grinding in PSP2/PSP2i was incredibly bad.
Random figures, poor stat gains, and extend codes were the worst idea ever. I really hope they do not come back.

I thought they were the best idea ever(in terms of weapon grinding).

Mike
Jul 11, 2011, 10:23 PM
Grinding in Infinity isn't random. It was in Portable 2 but was done away with in Infinity. Any weapon ground and/or extended in 2 and imported to Infinity was boosted to the maximum possible that was in 2.

Angelo
Jul 11, 2011, 10:32 PM
PSPo2 had the best grinding system.

RemiusTA
Jul 11, 2011, 11:04 PM
It had the best out of PSU, but i really hope they think of something cooler.

It was a good Money Sink, but i'd still like grinders to be able to be dropped, and weapons to have their own grind limit. (Like +50, +100, ect) They can still act as a Money Sink by simply allowing you to buy them in the store for a high price.

I hate variable weapon base stats tho, its a terrible idea.

Dracheseele
Jul 11, 2011, 11:25 PM
I hope they keep something similar to Extend Codes. Was a nice for keeping weapons that looked neat useful. Make it alittle more accessible though.

Perhaps expand upon it to be able to modify the appearance so you can really personalize your look.

Random Top Hat
Jul 12, 2011, 02:20 AM
I want the old PSO ep 1@2 i loved how some of the really noob wepons had crazy high grind lvls.
TRIGRINDER TILL THE END!!!