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ARASHIKAGE
Jun 5, 2011, 10:34 PM
I believe this topic was only barely addressed so I wanted to bring it up again.

The lobby system for MMOs is a dead concept and is very outdated. Will this system return based on familiarity to the series? Or would you rather have a different set up? (Open world concept has been covered)

Personally I want lobby chairs to return, who's with me!

Dongra
Jun 5, 2011, 10:50 PM
I preferred the old PSO centralized lobby. It was a lot easier to find someone to play with or just go to the counter to find a game than it was wandering around PSU's dead lobbies and areas where it was impossible to find a game unless you were at White Beast.

Seth Astra
Jun 5, 2011, 10:52 PM
I'd like lobbies, but I want them to be massive. To use an example of if they applied such a concept to classic PSO: Getting to explore all of Pioneer 2. Groups of mission counters and shops would serve as gathering points. Additionally, various hidden shops and NPCs that give you access to secret missions could be hidden in various locations, encouraging players to search around. I'm hesitant for full open world, though. IDK why. I can't really explain it.

NoiseHERO
Jun 5, 2011, 11:19 PM
Another "everyone hates PSU X; more PSO X and PSU's ideas should all die thread," right? @_@

Just one big lobby with the necessities and a couple stores and story NPC's is depressing to me, I want some virtual elbow room if this game is going to steal another 5 years of my life. Like, Sakai wants because he keeps saying "Revolutionized Re-Insert Action Into RPG a Whole New Look At Adventure!!" in engrish.

PSU had a lot of nice lobbies, and PSO had all the nice looking missions, just put two and two together, and make it all better. Less filler lobbies like PSU had...but NOT just 2 or 3 closet sized lobbies like PSO.

Dongra
Jun 5, 2011, 11:26 PM
I can handle something as big as the guardians colony but for the love of God I don't want several planets worth of empty space again.

Justyn_Darkcrest
Jun 5, 2011, 11:26 PM
They could easily create a nice middle ground. Expand on the cities and add more things to do in them, add in some lounge areas (possibly) and more interactive areas that could include some mini games or something recreational. Keep the multiple lobbies style that PSU had, or call them "safe areas" or something.

Now here's how it all ties together: Have at least one counter in every lobby/city that can access the field for joining groups but make it so no matter what counter you access, it brings up all the groups playing on that server/universe/ship (whatever they call it in this one).

This could easily please everyone to some extent, and would allow the people who'd rather stay in one large area to do so and allow the people who enjoy a little bit of solitude when now killing the native their peace, but still allow them to meet up if they so choose without leaving their respective preferred places.

Edit: would probably be a good idea to have staging areas for "missions" again as well, and maybe add a "social lobby" option that would allow X amount of people to join in for thos who'd like to just sit and chat with people.

ARASHIKAGE
Jun 5, 2011, 11:31 PM
Another "everyone hates PSU X; more PSO X and PSU's ideas should all die thread," right? @_@

OK you caught me Michaeru my PSO purist is showing, I want nothing that PSU has and everything PSO has. But then again, both games had lobbies so... what's my angle here? :-P

Honestly I really like your idea Seth, I often wondered what it would be like to fully explore the Pioneer 2 in PSO. Lets just hope those hots spots are well spread through the area so we don't have a ghost ship.


I'd like lobbies, but I want them to be massive. To use an example of if they applied such a concept to classic PSO: Getting to explore all of Pioneer 2. Groups of mission counters and shops would serve as gathering points. Additionally, various hidden shops and NPCs that give you access to secret missions could be hidden in various locations, encouraging players to search around. I'm hesitant for full open world, though. IDK why. I can't really explain it. :yes:

NoiseHERO
Jun 5, 2011, 11:34 PM
OK you caught me Michaeru my PSO purist is showing, I want nothing that PSU has and everything PSO has. But then again, both games had lobbies so... what's my angle here? :-P

Honestly I really like your idea Seth, I often wondered what it would be like to fully explore the Pioneer 2 in PSO. Lets just hope those hots spots are well spread through the area so we don't have a ghost ship.

:yes:

Was more referencing that stupid thread about mags than you, BUT YOUR GUILTY CONSCIENCE IS SHOWING NOW! I hope you didn't only read that part though. I mean I kinda do that too, read the first redundant line of a paragraph and ignore it... It's sadly becoming easy in this section. @_@

joshboyd1209
Jun 5, 2011, 11:37 PM
OK you caught me Michaeru my PSO purist is showing, I want nothing that PSU has and everything PSO has. But then again, both games had lobbies so... what's my angle here? :-P

Honestly I really like your idea Seth, I often wondered what it would be like to fully explore the Pioneer 2 in PSO. Lets just hope those hots spots are well spread through the area so we don't have a ghost ship.

:yes:
I have a better idea than putting them close together put them farely far apart and have you fight bat like creature every so often right inside the ship. e.g. you're walking along and all of a sudden you have to pull out a handgun and shoot down a few bats.

ARASHIKAGE
Jun 5, 2011, 11:51 PM
Was more referencing that stupid thread about mags

Oh now you have a problem with MAGs? (lol jk)

Yeah I read the rest of your post, you didn't offer a new idea so I didn't comment on it Michaeru. PSU planets weren't all bad though, but loading from one to the next was annoying. At least they tried to give us a "bigger universe feeling".

That teaser video clams PSO2 will define a new adventure in RPGs, what do you think this means? Same old lobby system isn't a new definition in RPGs.


I have a better idea than putting them close together put them farely far apart and have you fight bat like creature every so often right inside the ship. e.g. you're walking along and all of a sudden you have to pull out a handgun and shoot down a few bats. That's cool and all but imagine the lag issues that would ensue.And the people that just got back from quest would have low health sometimes, they wouldn't want to fight anything... and how you you die in the lobby? Where would you go? Or are you thinking this would be cool more like a mini game distraction?

Tetsaru
Jun 5, 2011, 11:56 PM
Lobbies aren't really necessary for MMORPG's anymore (inb4PSOisn'tanMMO), and neither are numerous mission counters (I'm looking at you, PSU). If PSO2 has massive world maps and areas to explore (which it SHOULD imo; PSU's Parum/Moatoob/Neudaiz/Space Colony could all fit in ONE world or even a couple of areas compared to something like FFXI), then simply put the mission counters in the main towns or some other centralized, easily-accessible location. From there, you can just pick a quest or mission to do, form up your party if you want (because a lot of people are going to be there at the counters instead of spread out), and then travel out to the area that you need to go to. The worlds themselves can be massive, but the missions can still be instanced: other people can still explore the same area you are, as well as see you running around, but they won't be able to kill the monsters associated with your mission, nor will they be able to obtain any items or experience points, etc.

Also, I believe that people should NOT be able to join you mid-mission - only at the start, both for story spoilers as well as so that everyone gets an equal shot at loot and experience. However, if you're just running around exploring an area and not doing any missions (like how PSO was), then you have someone party up with you if you want, and then drops and exp. will be adjusted accordingly. No mission counters involved though; if they want to join you, they'll have to either physically be there so you can invite them, or be invited from your friends list. I think this, along with a proper drop system and boot party member/change leader system, would help immensely against people who like to leech items/exp., as well as allow people to cooperate together in difficult missions without getting unjustly booted.

NoiseHERO
Jun 6, 2011, 12:14 AM
That teaser video clams PSO2 will define a new adventure in RPGs, what do you think this means? Same old lobby system isn't a new definition in RPGs.

Which is exactly why I'd want/expect them to try more new and different things. But I still feel way too much of that "No PSO did everything perfectly" vibe from way too many posts whenever I check these forums. PSO2 as it is so far, looks like everything in the past combined but at the same time redone completely and upgraded and that's what I'm expecting the rest of the game to look like.

Zyrusticae
Jun 6, 2011, 12:35 AM
The worlds themselves can be massive, but the missions can still be instanced: other people can still explore the same area you are, as well as see you running around, but they won't be able to kill the monsters associated with your mission, nor will they be able to obtain any items or experience points, etc.
Terrible, awful, pointless, screw you buddy rageragerage etc.

In all seriousness, I do not expect open world in any way, shape, or form. It will NOT benefit the game IN ANY WAY.

A fully open world creates some serious design limitations that, quite frankly, will hurt the game a LOT more than it'll help. They have to build the zones to be large enough to accommodate (re: lots of empty space) the large number of players who'll be occupying that space, which in turns me less interesting landscapes, which in turn also means more down time going from place to place, in general just making things a lot less fun for all involved. Not to mention you'll see a catastrophic increase in server lag, as the current system can dedicate a single server for a single instance whereas an open-world system forces a single server to serve a far, far larger number of players simultaneously. This is especially a huge issue with physics-heavy games. We need heavy instancing for the game to be all it can be. And screw anyone who thinks otherwise, they clearly want to play another game (like, say, Tera, anyone?).

In the end, I say anyone looking for a real MMO should steer clear of the PSO series. They're going to remain cooperative action-RPGs, and quite frankly that is a severely underserved niche. MMORPGs are a dime a dozen nowadays, you literally cannot go to a single gaming site on the net without seeing some mention of some MMO, there's SO many of them that have been released/are being released/are being developed right at this very moment. We don't need another one.

ARASHIKAGE
Jun 6, 2011, 12:37 AM
Which is exactly why I'd want/expect them to try more new and different things. But I still feel way too much of that "No PSO did everything perfectly" vibe from way too many posts whenever I check these forums. PSO2 as it is so far, looks like everything in the past combined but at the same time redone completely and upgraded and that's what I'm expecting the rest of the game to look like.

I hope most of us feel this way, PSO2 needs to be a new game or it will fail. I still want to hold onto many past perfections PSO made that were casually tossed away in PSU. I was one of those people that initially dubbed PSU a much better game than PSO in the beginning days. But once the excitement and the fluff died down I realized ST tried to do something new and it failed structurally. It was still a fun, competitive, social online experice that I enjoyed from launch to (PS2/PC) close. This should have made a great learning experience for Sonic Team, and I'd say we all hope they make the necessary drastic improvements.

Bottom line: If your on these threads this early in PSO2s production you are a hardcore fan and I can't wait to play this game with most of you!

Zyrusticae
Jun 6, 2011, 12:41 AM
Bottom line: If your on these threads this early in PSO2s production you are a hardcore fan and I can't wait to play this game with most of you!

And I can't wait to see so many peoples' blind, unrealistic hopes dashed to pieces when they find out it is, in fact, a sequel to PSU with nostalgia-ripped elements from PSO and NOT the uber next-generation action-MMO with super-duper-advanced open-world BS somehow magically supported by super-servers that can apparently calculate the actions, movements, and physics of hundreds or even thousands of people in real-time simultaneously.

ARASHIKAGE
Jun 6, 2011, 12:50 AM
And I can't wait to see so many peoples' blind, unrealistic hopes dashed to pieces when they find out it is, in fact, a sequel to PSU with nostalgia-ripped elements from PSO and NOT the uber next-generation action-MMO with super-duper-advanced open-world BS somehow magically supported by super-servers that can apparently calculate the actions, movements, and physics of hundreds or even thousands of people in real-time simultaneously.

Yeah... This is why I said "with most of you".

Tetsaru
Jun 6, 2011, 01:08 AM
I just don't want it to feel like I'm running through a crappy version of a Zelda dungeon every 10 minutes. That shit got boring and monotonous in PSU, both in terms of trying to level up, and in terms of hunting rare items, and was a good part of what made me eventually quit. PSO's dungeons weren't nearly as bad imo, but it still got to the point where you always knew what to expect, and that's not good for a game in which one will probably spend hundreds of hours playing... hence, a large world where there are many different areas to explore, but can still have plenty of instances depending on what quests or missions you were doing, sort of how FFXIV does with its levequests, where you can go out and hunt monsters, craft items for NPC's, or look around for and gather resources, OR just run around on your own and explore, and still pretty much do the same things without any strings attached if you're at the proper levels - a lot like how PSO was set up in terms of both doing quests or just going through each area normally. Now, I know FFXIV is technically an MMO and PSO/PSU isn't, but they're still RPG's and I feel that they can be handled similarly from a design standpoint.

I won't mind if PSO2 doesn't have huge FFXI/FFXIV/WoW/Oblivion-sized worlds, but they better not be the "one town per planet that just consists of a bunch of shops you find on every other planet + mission counters and lobbies that look pretty" bullshit that was in PSU. And if the areas themselves are instanced (instead of the missions), then I want to see AT LEAST 10 different map variations for the same area, and not be all like "oh, this is the map where Rappies might spawn, but if they don't, we can do it again and abandon 50 gajillion times until we get them to spawn and hope they drop that one item we probably could've just found for cheap in the player shops." :rolleyes:

My point is, RPG's, regardless of whether or not they're MMO's, should have TONS of places to explore and TONS of things to do, and action-RPG's should keep players on their toes and not bore them to death with predictable instances and excessive and needless grinding. I'm not saying that not saying that instances are necessarily bad, there just needs to be a lot of different things going on so that players will never be able to predict what's going to happen next gameplay-wise.

RenzokukenZ
Jun 6, 2011, 01:54 AM
Since PSO2's maps will be randomly generated, it will remove the repetitiveness and predictability of stationary maps.

This will also make open-world difficult and moreover pointless.

ARASHIKAGE
Jun 6, 2011, 02:45 AM
Since PSO2's maps will be randomly generated, it will remove the repetitiveness and predictability of stationary maps.

This will also make open-world difficult and moreover pointless.

This doesn't necessarily cancel out open world. But I doubt they would steer far from the run based system.

Man the first time I saw this idea of randomized areas I was soo happy, and I still am. Imagine never seeing the same map layout twice, that's pretty damn cool.

joshboyd1209
Jun 6, 2011, 09:09 AM
That's cool and all but imagine the lag issues that would ensue.And the people that just got back from quest would have low health sometimes, they wouldn't want to fight anything... and how you you die in the lobby? Where would you go? Or are you thinking this would be cool more like a mini game distraction?

I was thinking that it could be more of a part of exploring the ship and as for what happens if you die simple send you back to the last counter you checked in at or just make that an option along with giving you the option to just stay there and wait for a good samaritan.


The first time I saw this idea of randomized areas I was soo happy, and I still am. Imagine never seeing the same map layout twice, that's pretty damn cool.

Well due to the way permutations work you'll still see some of the map layouts more than once.

Zyrusticae
Jun 6, 2011, 12:48 PM
[snipped for length]
My point is, RPG's, regardless of whether or not they're MMO's, should have TONS of places to explore and TONS of things to do, and action-RPG's should keep players on their toes and not bore them to death with predictable instances and excessive and needless grinding. I'm not saying that not saying that instances are necessarily bad, there just needs to be a lot of different things going on so that players will never be able to predict what's going to happen next gameplay-wise.
You're conflating two completely separate issues here.

Predictability and repetitiveness are not fixed by an open world. If anything, an open world only makes it worse as you inevitably find yourself traversing the exact same ground as you had the past several hundred times.

I seriously cannot imagine, I mean, no, I really cannot conceive how you came to the conclusion that an open world would somehow add variety to the game simply by virtue of being an open world. That just doesn't make any sense.

Rather, to fix monotony they simply need to add variety to the instances in the form of random elements, which is exactly what they're doing with the new events and random layouts. You can't actually do that in an open world due to its very nature - unless you reset and randomize the entire world every night or something (which makes NO SENSE), you can't actually have the world permanently affected in such a way.

Of course, they can also help the issue by making sure the core gameplay itself actually possesses quite a bit more variety than the previous games. When you're having a ton of fun bashing and shooting and blasting things to pieces, it's rather unlikely you're going to care about whether or not the game is heavily instanced...

Tetsaru
Jun 6, 2011, 06:31 PM
Ok, think of it this way:

PSO/PSU style maps - you enter a small room with little to no exploration, and you know there's going to be 3 Boomas and a Hildebear spawn in the southeastern corner because you've done this run a gajillion times already. You swiftly kill them all in 5 seconds by auto-critting them with Anga Jabroga, yawn, and move to the next room that you also know exactly what to expect, because by now, you know that this is Map B out of 3 different map variations. You're done with the area in a mere 10 minutes because you're overpowered as fuck compared to the enemies' levels, but you do it over and over again anyway because you still need that Agito Edge to synth your sword because the last one you made broke at 99%.

Large overworld style maps - you enter the Ohboyee Plains of Herpderpia for the umpteenth time, but you've never explored that one corner of the map that has a small lake because it was so far out of the way compared to the more common routes between other areas you've taken. On the way up there, you find Boomas and Rappies as usual, but this time you run into a horde of Hildebears grouped up together, with a Hildeblue leader. You already knew Hildeblues spawn in this area, but you don't know exactly WHERE or WHEN they spawn. On top of that, they wander around a large area, so you can't really camp effectively for them either. After an intense battle, the Hildeblue is defeated, and you claim his horns as a biomaterial rare item, because as it turns out, he only spawns once a day, but has a 75% chance of dropping the horns due to his strength and rarity. Then, you continue on to that lake, and find out that there is a teleporter back home so you can always come back if you want, and the local mission counter suddenly has new missions for you...

Now then, which one sounds more fun? Either way, you can still put instances in both through missions, quests, and random events, but an overworld can link all the dungeons together so it doesn't always seem like you're stuck in a bunch of tiny rooms in which all the enemy spawns and obstacles are bound to, AND it can give players the freedom to explore. Imagine PSU's multiple lobbies between missions, but larger and with random enemies running around, and you didn't have to complete the mission in the previous lobby to get to the next lobby - you just had to run around and explore to get out there in the first place, but you could always go home and back through use of warps. Personally, I think that would be cool, but I'm sure people will disagree with me...

Also, I REALLY hope missions will consist of more than just "kill all this shit," or "protect this NPC."

yoshiblue
Jun 6, 2011, 11:27 PM
A remake of the 1st level of Sonic Adventure 2 as a lobby would be cool.

Heck, the overworld of the first or emerald coast would be cool as a lobby too.

Seth Astra
Jun 6, 2011, 11:49 PM
Which first level? Hero or Dark?

Ishia
Jun 7, 2011, 07:30 AM
Open-world in a Phantasy Star Online game? I cannot post a nope.jpg big enough. I simply cannot stand open-world MMOs due to the incredible amounts of incessant traveling that you have to do to get from Location A to B. Lobbies are just fine. Sure, they could expand on the lobby system, but that is all Phantasy Star needs.

jayster
Jun 7, 2011, 09:07 AM
I liked the PSU lobby better but I didn't like how it made some missions practically impossible to run because no one would ever be in that area.

Tetsaru
Jun 7, 2011, 09:57 AM
Open-world in a Phantasy Star Online game? I cannot post a nope.jpg big enough. I simply cannot stand open-world MMOs due to the incredible amounts of incessant traveling that you have to do to get from Location A to B. Lobbies are just fine. Sure, they could expand on the lobby system, but that is all Phantasy Star needs.

An easy-to-use teleportation system (Telepipes, perhaps?), mounts, and vehicles would fix all that. FFXIV fixed that problem from FFXI with the Aetherite Nodes; you'd just need to travel to a certain area for the first time to gain access to it, and as long as you had enough Anima (basically a 100-point system that slowly regenerated over time), you could go to an area whenever you wanted to. You could even register certain areas as favorites so they'd cost lest Anima to warp to. Also, you could warp back to a camp for free after finishing a levequest or behest. In FFXI, you had to pay someone else (NOT an NPC) who was a high enough level White or Black Mage to warp you to a general vicinity... either that, or "bloodport" to whichever Home Point you set last by killing yourself, which in turn, made you lose exp...

RenzokukenZ
Jun 7, 2011, 10:31 AM
An easy-to-use teleportation system (Telepipes, perhaps?), mounts, and vehicles would fix all that. FFXIV fixed that problem from FFXI with the Aetherite Nodes; you'd just need to travel to a certain area for the first time to gain access to it, and as long as you had enough Anima (basically a 100-point system that slowly regenerated over time), you could go to an area whenever you wanted to. You could even register certain areas as favorites so they'd cost lest Anima to warp to. Also, you could warp back to a camp for free after finishing a levequest or behest. In FFXI, you had to pay someone else (NOT an NPC) who was a high enough level White or Black Mage to warp you to a general vicinity... either that, or "bloodport" to whichever Home Point you set last by killing yourself, which in turn, made you lose exp...

Sure is a lot of trouble to go from point A to point B...

And successfully discouraging open-world even more.

r00tabaga
Jun 7, 2011, 10:59 AM
Sure is a lot of trouble to go from point A to point B...

And successfully discouraging open-world even more.

Totally agree with this.

Zyrusticae
Jun 7, 2011, 11:00 AM
Ok, think of it this way:

PSO/PSU style maps - you enter a small room with little to no exploration, and you know there's going to be 3 Boomas and a Hildebear spawn in the southeastern corner because you've done this run a gajillion times already. You swiftly kill them all in 5 seconds by auto-critting them with Anga Jabroga, yawn, and move to the next room that you also know exactly what to expect, because by now, you know that this is Map B out of 3 different map variations. You're done with the area in a mere 10 minutes because you're overpowered as fuck compared to the enemies' levels, but you do it over and over again anyway because you still need that Agito Edge to synth your sword because the last one you made broke at 99%.
A pointless and completely meaningless scenario.

This does not describe PSO2 even halfway accurately. You are making far too many assumptions here.


Large overworld style maps - you enter the Ohboyee Plains of Herpderpia for the umpteenth time, but you've never explored that one corner of the map that has a small lake because it was so far out of the way compared to the more common routes between other areas you've taken. On the way up there, you find Boomas and Rappies as usual, but this time you run into a horde of Hildebears grouped up together, with a Hildeblue leader. You already knew Hildeblues spawn in this area, but you don't know exactly WHERE or WHEN they spawn. On top of that, they wander around a large area, so you can't really camp effectively for them either. After an intense battle, the Hildeblue is defeated, and you claim his horns as a biomaterial rare item, because as it turns out, he only spawns once a day, but has a 75% chance of dropping the horns due to his strength and rarity. Then, you continue on to that lake, and find out that there is a teleporter back home so you can always come back if you want, and the local mission counter suddenly has new missions for you...
Wow.

You realize that absolutely nothing you mention in this paragraph can't be done better with instances? I mean, seriously?

Do I need to remind you that instances are randomly generated? Because, well, I'm pretty sure I keep mentioning this, but you don't seem to understand...


Also, I REALLY hope missions will consist of more than just "kill all this shit," or "protect this NPC."
Depends.

If the level design isn't shit, I don't care what the actual objectives are. Neither should you, for that matter. The important thing is that there is actual variety in how you go accomplishing your goals, not that the objectives are varied (although it's certainly nice to have as an extra).

PhotonDrop
Jun 7, 2011, 02:34 PM
Tetsaru, stop comparing Phantasy Star to big name MMOs. Especially when those big name MMOs are garbage.

I like what you're getting at but the more you talk the more it sounds like you want a completely different game. Mounts? Seriously? That's not Phantasy Star at all.

r00tabaga
Jun 7, 2011, 03:12 PM
Tetsaru, stop comparing Phantasy Star to big name MMOs. Especially when those big name MMOs are garbage.

I like what you're getting at but the more you talk the more it sounds like you want a completely different game. Mounts? Seriously? That's not Phantasy Star at all.

There was tons of mounting in PSU. I take it you never went to a player shop. I got mounted all the time! :) -jk

Tetsaru
Jun 7, 2011, 08:18 PM
Wow, I didn't think so many people would be so opposed to the idea of an overworld, geez... :(


Sure is a lot of trouble to go from point A to point B...

And successfully discouraging open-world even more.

I don't see what's so troublesome about it...

In PSO, you could use a Telepipe or Ryuker FROM ANYWHERE to return to Pioneer 2. You either consumed TP or an item, and so long as you had either, you could do it whenever you wanted.

In PSU, you talked to an NPC in one of many common locations and paid them a small amount of meseta (or for free, if a party member was already at the destination) to teleport you to a lobby you've already been to.

In FFXIV, you could select a Teleport command - again, FROM ANYWHERE - AND a destination you've already been to, including a town OR a camp, dungeon, etc. In the process, you consumed Anima (usually between 2 to 6 out of a maximum of 100 that slowly regenerated over time). And if you didn't have access to a certain area, you could just party up with someone who did, and you could follow them when they teleported FOR FREE - just like in PSU.

I dunno about you, but they all sound like pretty similar systems to me. Even in PSU, you still had to fight your way through missions to get to certain areas and run around. In an overworld like FFXIV, you still have to run around, but you don't have to fight. Perhaps there are aggressive monsters that'll aggro and one-shot you on sight, but that just means you aren't high enough level for that area yet, and you learn to avoid them, or try to sneak out of their detection range.


You realize that absolutely nothing you mention in this paragraph can't be done better with instances? I mean, seriously?

Do I need to remind you that instances are randomly generated? Because, well, I'm pretty sure I keep mentioning this, but you don't seem to understand...

I know instances can be randomly generated, but they can also be player-generated and predictable; for example, starting a quest or mission - basically EVERYTHING you did in PSU, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instance_dungeon) because it lacked a "do whatever you want" mode like PSO did... sounds like something you do in an overworld, right? Well, it does to me at least... maybe not to you, I dunno. :confused: And hell, by that definition, even PSO's "do whatever you want" mode was instanced because you could only have up to 4 people playing together... kinda lame, imo.

The predictability of PSU's mission maps (which are instances as far as I'm concerned), along with the easy difficulty and short length of the runs, as well as the fact that they constantly re-used and reskinned them, was one thing about the game that bored me to tears. I understand that you don't necessarily need an overworld to have instances, and I know it might seem empty and repetitive going through one, but at the same time, I think having an overworld would encourage the developers of PSO2 to not reskin the hell out of all the tiny little maps. And yes, I know this was mainly due to the lack of PS2 hard drive support for PSU, but I REALLY don't want to see it again. Personally, I'd rather see a HUGE, immersive world over and over than a crappy dungeon with small rooms reskinned over and over, with only a few map variations. Either way though, you can still have tons of instances; the key is having enough of them so that the actual gameplay doesn't feel repetitive and predictable... like playing the same Zelda dungeon over and over.

And I know FFXI technically reskinned their entire overworld with the whole "go into the past during the Shadow Lord's reign," but at least everything was radically different. :razz:


Depends.

If the level design isn't shit, I don't care what the actual objectives are. Neither should you, for that matter. The important thing is that there is actual variety in how you go accomplishing your goals, not that the objectives are varied (although it's certainly nice to have as an extra).

I dunno about you, but I got sick and tired of spamming PA's in every mission that didn't involve protecting herp-derp-level AI NPC's and just watching everything die from my overpowered-ness. That's not engrossing gameplay, it's "press button, receive bacon." Maybe I don't want to go kill stuff all the time... maybe I want to gather materials and make some new equipment. Maybe I want to just explore some place I've never been before and see what's there. Maybe I want to beat my friend's ass at some sort of casino minigame... things like that. I shouldn't always have to play a completely different game to get that experience.


Tetsaru, stop comparing Phantasy Star to big name MMOs. Especially when those big name MMOs are garbage.

I like what you're getting at but the more you talk the more it sounds like you want a completely different game. Mounts? Seriously? That's not Phantasy Star at all.

*AHEM*
[spoiler-box]http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/2984/image15fw.jpg[/spoiler-box]
Oh yeah, that's right - Sega never put them in the online portion of the game. :rolleyes: At least, not while I was online...

I really think they could've done something with those things, along with the Floaders, Airboards, and Tanks (another thing I never saw online). Pity they all controlled like ass...

ARASHIKAGE
Jun 7, 2011, 08:26 PM
There was tons of mounting in PSU. I take it you never went to a player shop. I got mounted all the time! :) -jk

Zing!

Edit: Tets I'm with you, PSO2 would be really fun open world. Telepipe up to the main ship and get your weapons/armor/items (supplies). The telepipe is a brilliant warp tool that needs to be implemented again (oh-no, my PSOpurist is showing). Physically traveling from sector to sector would be fun too, PSU hover speeders were cool, also that teaser video showed us drop ships. I know that was a cut-in event, but what if some of these ships are controllable? I'm sure in the end ST will try and separate themselves as far from WoW as possible, so I'd say open world is very unlikely but I'd sure enjoy it.

PhotonDrop
Jun 7, 2011, 09:00 PM
Mini games involving a vehicle have happened before. I recall a light bike chicken race in a Rappy quest back on PSO. However, this does not mean we should all be flying around on our own light bikes.

I'd rather not homogenize the series with boring elements from MMOs. Especially when the game is not supposed to be an MMO.

ARASHIKAGE
Jun 7, 2011, 09:05 PM
Mini games involving a vehicle have happened before. I recall a light bike chicken race in a Rappy quest back on PSO. However, this does not mean we should all be flying around on our own light bikes.

I'd rather not homogenize the series with boring elements from MMOs. Especially when the game is not supposed to be an MMO.

You have a valid point but, where do we draw the line? At some point does PSO need to move forward and compete with the other MMOs, or does it rely solely on it's hardcore fanbase?

Dongra
Jun 7, 2011, 09:06 PM
or does it rely solely on it's hardcore fanbase?
Probably best to stick with this. It's a very unique niche series that clearly has a strong enough fanbase to keep it going. It may be too risky to venture off into MMO territory.

PhotonDrop
Jun 7, 2011, 09:25 PM
You have a valid point but, where do we draw the line? At some point does PSO need to move forward and compete with the other MMOs, or does it rely solely on it's hardcore fanbase?

The moment a game tries to compete is the moment it dies.

Every single game that was marketed to be a WoW killer or a COD killer has been a huge flop. In most of those cases it was because they tried to steal the spotlight by being exactly like the reigning camps with an added gimmick.

As a long-time fan of the series I'd prefer if PSO2 didn't follow that trend.

NoiseHERO
Jun 7, 2011, 09:29 PM
The only thing I'd really ever want to be an open world...would be travel between planets on our badass funky space ships that also double as a My Room function, maybe even have some spaceship based missions though nothing complicated to become too core gameplay related. Then arriving at the planet everything can be instance and lobby based.

Running around in some blank desolate open field, or a dungeon, city or forest that FEELS like an empty field while waiting for monsters to spawn... As you run back n forth/teleport to NPC's for more tedious quests...? Bleh

ARASHIKAGE
Jun 7, 2011, 09:40 PM
What if you want to have a place to go, away from everyone, so you can meet up with your friends? -Like the Snow Cave on Moatoob- Should private meetings be restricted to player rooms, for the sake of abolishing empty roaming space?

@PhotonDrop: Just to be clear, you're not opposed to PSO2 adding new features just as long as they don't change the old ones?

Asai
Jun 7, 2011, 09:53 PM
Sure is a lot of trouble to go from point A to point B...

And successfully discouraging open-world even more.

Sure was a lot of trouble to get from A to B in FFXI, yes.

And successfully discouraging FFXI's open world sure.

The guy is using these as examples of bad methods so you can maybe understand how easy it is to actually pull off a decent/easy system, not to make it seem like they'll take the worst route possible and intentionally make it a headache.

PhotonDrop
Jun 7, 2011, 09:59 PM
What if you want to have a place to go, away from everyone, so you can meet up with your friends? -Like the Snow Cave on Moatoob- Should private meetings be restricted to player rooms, for the sake of abolishing empty roaming space?

@PhotonDrop: Just to be clear, you're not opposed to PSO2 adding new features just as long as they don't change the old ones?

Right. I don't want to see the game become stagnate, but not if it means changing into an entirely different game from what I'm used to.

Mike
Jun 7, 2011, 10:08 PM
Probably best to stick with this. It's a very unique niche series that clearly has a strong enough fanbase to keep it going. It may be too risky to venture off into MMO territory.
This is right. MOs and MMOs are too risky. Phantasy Star needs to return to it's roots and go back to being a turn-based RPG. The arpg PSO was far too risky so the series should return to what it did best. And be single player, offline only.

Zyrusticae
Jun 7, 2011, 10:11 PM
I shouldn't always have to play a completely different game to get that experience.
I'm feelin' kind of ornery right now and as such my attention span is really short, so I'm just pointing this out:

Maybe you should. Maybe you have to!

I mean, hey, I don't rag on games like Call of Duty for not having crrrraaazy energy weapons or having contiguous battlefields or vehicles or anything like that. That's not what they're going for at all. So why, then, would I expect them to cater to me in particular just because they're making a new entry in the series? Why would I expect them to bend genres?

It just doesn't make any sense to me. The game is one thing, and it focuses on doing that one thing well. And if you don't like doing that one thing all the time, well, then, isn't that what other games are for?

If I wanna play Sim City, I play Sim City. If I wanna gather materials, craft things, play the market, I play EVE Online. I see no reason I should be expecting PSO2 to try to cater to everyone at once or to try to expand its market outside of the niche it's already dug itself. It's just not that kind of game. It's not TRYING to be that kind of game.

And that's all there is to it, really. You should expect a combat-heavy game and if that's not your thing, well, you better manage your expectations accordingly.

Asai
Jun 7, 2011, 10:15 PM
I'm seeing a lot of people against the idea of an open-world, and given 90% of the people here are die-hard PSO fans who don't want change... I think I see why. And yes, there were "mounts" in PSU, still amazed to this day how I seem to be the only person that ever played the fucking offline mode to any god damned thing. I love how a lot of the "shoot down that idea quick" responses are based around previous bad experience or lack thereof. Get your balls out of your purse and encourage innovation. If this series DOESN'T pick up a few new niche's it's just gonna end up being a stale rehash of something that can never be done it's original justice unless it's got some new flavor. Random events have a limit, and won't be even as sub-par as they already are after the first few encounters. Open world isn't even enough in my opinion, though it could be easily done with lobby systems interlaced, not to mention the entire thing could be instanced (ever play monster hunter? guild wars?). It's like everyone's turning a blind eye to the success stories and real potential just cuz they don't want it to change. Go play ******** or buy a dreamcast off amazon if you want that shit, don't ruin a potential revolution to the series with your fear of it not being the same shit again and again cuz you just might like it in the end. And in regard to WoW-killers failing just because they try too hard... Yea, partially. PARTIALLY. The MAIN reason they fail though, is they AREN'T WoW copies. And WoW nerds just can't have a game that isn't WoW now can they? So there goes potential buyers.

Zyrusticae
Jun 7, 2011, 10:18 PM
[fail wall of text]
Hey, yeah, when you can remove like 90% of the BLIND NERD RAGE from your post and properly separate ideas into paragraphs, come back and talk. It's kind of hard to get anything of value when all I can see conveyed are your feelings, which, by the way, consist entirely of RAGE, ANGER, and INDIGNATION. :-?

ARASHIKAGE
Jun 7, 2011, 10:28 PM
Right. I don't want to see the game become stagnate, but not if it means changing into an entirely different game from what I'm used to.
It's the little things that makes a great game (once you have a solid system). They're subtle like; the music change in PSO when enemies appear or when you enter a new block. In PSU the ability to lock equipment. PSO2 preview; The weapons being displayed on your characters back makes me feel geared up and ready to do battle! :-D I hope ST puts a spotlight on these features.

Jumping, rolling, blocking, are big changes. I have a feeling there might be a few more big changes to come. *cough* Forces...

PhotonDrop
Jun 7, 2011, 10:28 PM
And in regard to WoW-killers failing just because they try too hard... Yea, partially. PARTIALLY. The MAIN reason they fail though, is they AREN'T WoW copies. And WoW nerds just can't have a game that isn't WoW now can they? So there goes potential buyers.

Where would somebody get the notion that a game would be anything like WoW if it wasn't hyping itself up to be WoW with funny hats?

The fact of the matter is, a massive game play revamp is better suited to be called something else. PSO was not Phantasy Star 5, nor was it promised to be such. Just as PSU wasn't supposed to be PSO2. However, if PSO2 is nothing like PSO then the diehards have every right to call foul play.



It's the little things that makes a great game (once you have a solid system).

I agree.

Asai
Jun 7, 2011, 10:38 PM
Where would somebody get the notion that a game would be anything like WoW if it wasn't hyping itself up to be WoW with funny hats?

The fact of the matter is, a massive game play revamp is better suited to be called something else. PSO was not Phantasy Star 5, nor was it promised to be such. Just as PSU wasn't supposed to be PSO2. However, if PSO2 is nothing like PSO then the diehards have every right to call foul play.

That is the single most sensible counter-argument I have read thus far. Thank you. I completely agree with what you just said. However, the changes I have in mind aren't game-breakers. It's the little things that matter, as the guy before you just posted. An open-world system doesn't have to mean doing away with lobbies/zones/instances, it has been a step by step process up to it. Honestly, from the video that was shown for PSO2, the zones already look much more open-world than PSO/PSU ever did. Looked like lots of different pathing options. And THAT is what I'm talking about! Open world styling can be brought in while keeping to the instance and lobbied basis. Phantasy Star online has been about new worlds and exploration from the get-go. Yea in PSO the areas were basically glorified hallways, but that was honestly more of a hardware-capability factor than an actual gameplay design. Obviously with PSU they expanded on that, so it only makes sense that things would gradually expand. If the title/logo is indication enough then it looks like they've got SEVERAL planets in store already so they probably are going to expand on the exploration front as well.

Zyrusticae
Jun 7, 2011, 11:22 PM
[snipped]
Okay....


Again, really?

All you're talking about is BIGGER LEVELS.

That's NOT AT ALL the same thing as OPEN WORLDS.

I mean, come on! If that's what it is, then say so! Don't muck things up by trying to call them something they're not.

adblog
Jun 8, 2011, 09:43 PM
I like lobby too.

yoshiblue
Jun 9, 2011, 03:42 AM
Which first level? Hero or Dark?

Sorry for the insanely late reply. No comp access.

A: Hero's

RemiusTA
Jun 9, 2011, 12:27 PM
Half of the stuff you guys are bitching about, if it was done in PSO2 and done RIGHT, you'd be more than happy they did it. Not to mention, it'd be very unlikely that you'd use the whole "that just so isnt phantasy star" argument.

Remember, PSO did the same thing to PSIV. And yes, it is the same situation.


PSO2 is already EONS away from PSO, at least from our 4 minute glance.

Zyrusticae
Jun 9, 2011, 01:54 PM
Half of the stuff you guys are bitching about, if it was done in PSO2 and done RIGHT[...]
In other words, no open world. :roll:

Seriously, put some thought into this. Tell me how in the world open world can be "done RIGHT" in a game like this. So far absolutely nothing that has been put forward has convinced me of anything other than the evils of thoughtlessly and mindlessly stealing features from other games just for the sake of having them.

And I, for one, refuse to put so much faith in Sega so as to STEAL ideas and DO IT RIGHT. :-x

yoshiblue
Jun 9, 2011, 05:53 PM
Theme park lobby anyone?

joshboyd1209
Jun 9, 2011, 06:59 PM
In other words, no open world. :roll:

Seriously, put some thought into this. Tell me how in the world open world can be "done RIGHT" in a game like this. So far absolutely nothing that has been put forward has convinced me of anything other than the evils of thoughtlessly and mindlessly stealing features from other games just for the sake of having them.

And I, for one, refuse to put so much faith in Sega so as to STEAL ideas and DO IT RIGHT. :-x
How about multiple open worlds? If your jumping from planet to planet that would work of course if it's just the one planet then you just simply have home base in the center and you run out of it through certain doors to get to certain areas.

dooby613
Jul 7, 2011, 10:39 AM
no photon chairs is a deal breaker for me, no photon chairs means no photon chair races! No photon chair races means there will be nothing to do after hitting level cap(jk).

Jade DaBain
Jul 15, 2011, 01:13 AM
If PSO2 is to have lobbies, Id prefer if it is like PSO's lobbies. That way, theres not tons of empty lobbies because everyone is off mindlessly doing PSO2's version of White Beast. They would all be in one area, where you can see and find them easily. Clean and simple, if you ask me.

Genoa
Jul 15, 2011, 02:53 AM
I'd like to think that multiple & diverse lobbies are a cool idea.
I'd also like to think that one mission counter to access all groups within your server is also a cool idea.

I'd argue that the reason it was very difficult to get a decent group going in PSU was it was simply difficult to find people to play with... WITH the exception of them either being
A. Already on your friend list
B. You were in the "popular" lobby where the same quest was being spammed over and over and over and over and over and over.


If PSO2 is to have lobbies, Id prefer if it is like PSO's lobbies. That way, theres not tons of empty lobbies because everyone is off mindlessly doing PSO2's version of White Beast. They would all be in one area, where you can see and find them easily. Clean and simple, if you ask me.

^ THIS

But I don't think it was the lobby issue to be honest.

-= What would have worked:
A Global chat designed to keep all players on the server in a form of communication to further organize and discuss matters (butOMGWTFotherbigfailMMORPGSalreadydothat!)
Well IT WORKS! >_______>

You can still have your lobbies to meet your friends and other people in to talk in a regular chat window and spam your fancy cut-in chats and Emote-away. (better be some GD Photon Chairs too!...)
But you can also have a global chat that everyone is entitled too.
Don't like your global chat? Minimize or disable it. You don't have to have multiple chat windows... you can tab in between Open chat, Group chat, Team chat (or whatever they'll call it) and Global chat.
"but that's other games, PSO is different"
........ well I don't know what else to tell you...... I personally think it would keep the game going longer since you could find more players online frequently simply by talking in Global chat.

MAYBE even have a class chat where you can simply talk to all players currently using the same character type as you. Like a FOmar chat channel when you're on FOmar to further discuss the dynamics of your class and ask questions and give advice to others. It's less ridicule than asking in global chat.

BUT THEN AGAIN... That's just other MMO bullshit that's already been thought of, and "PSO is different"
Who cares if it was successful for all those other games.
Communication is overrated.

RemiusTA
Jul 15, 2011, 02:56 AM
Especially when the game is not supposed to be an MMO.

o boy

Genoa
Jul 15, 2011, 02:57 AM
It's Multiplayer
It's Online
Godforbid it was actually Massive and successful for once.

EDIT: It's designed for PC only now for once too.
THEY HAVE SO MUCH POTENTIAL RIGHT NOW IT'S RIDICULOUS!
You can still keep many basic elements of the game traditional and friendly to PSO vets but you can open it to a more modern and new-user friendly environment.

You've got to be shitting me if you're against the idea of actually being able to communicate? It's not like it's a webcam in your house watching you take a shower.

Get over yourself

EDIT 2:
Let me make an example, since ignorance is obvious.
Hypothetically.. .
If someone you didn't like (in this case, it would be some THING you didn't like, such as "those other MMO's) invented the Telephone...
Would you boycott it? "Forget that, that asshole can keep his amazing device, I'm sticking to the mail"

Phantasy Star has got some really cool stuff.
Phantasy Star Online in particular is actually my favorite game of all time.
Phantasy Star Universe was very nice to (for me) and there were many things that were implemented in PSU that would do very well in PSO.
Other online games have made other mechanics and content that were very successful.
Phantasy Star Online is NOT a 100% ingeniously created game. Though it may be vastly different from others, communication is something we humans use. NOT the game.
Being able to communicate with other people can be done so in MANY different ways. But the bottom line is, with our current technology, a very common and easy implementation of communication is a text-based system used via keyboard relayed over the internet directly to the screen of other players.
Instead of limiting that easy form of communication to the few people who are in the same location (in game) as you, why not give the available option to speak to whomever is online on your server.
With ALL potential players that can POTENTIALLY play with you.

I can't be alone on this, it's just smart.
Get over the fact that other games use it.

yoshiblue
Jul 15, 2011, 03:29 AM
Could always make PSO lobbys but with sega tribute skins. EX: Nights would be lobby6, Retro Sonic for Lobby2, Billy Hatcher for Lobby7, ect.

Jade DaBain
Jul 15, 2011, 03:38 AM
Maybe, instead of lobbies, there would be towns and cities that you can go to that have shops that you can buy stuff, quests you can accept, homes you can live in, people (NPCs) you can talk to, etc. Also, outside those towns and cities, there would be wide, open fields where you can fight creatures or the enemy. Ya know, like most online games have.....

Genoa
Jul 15, 2011, 03:51 AM
Obvious troll is obvious

Forgive me for being out of line and desiring a communication mechanic that literally has no impact on how the game is actually played-out.

I'm not asking for them to create overworlds like other online games
I'm not asking for them to create crafting and gathering jobs in the same fashion of other online games.

But open communication for not only groups and lobby... but things like,
Looking for groups
Class discussion
Trade

It's almost TOO smart, I'm just sayin

Jade DaBain
Jul 15, 2011, 04:13 AM
Im defiantly not a troll, if that comment was directed at me. What I said was just a thought and nothing more. I did give a comment earlier about what I would suggest PSO2 should do if they do have lobbies though, but I also did mention about the possibility of the game not having lobbies at all. I didnt mean any disrespect to anyone or anything. I was just giving a comment and nothing more.

MoonlightMyau
Jul 15, 2011, 08:10 AM
If PSO2 is to have lobbies, Id prefer if it is like PSO's lobbies. That way, theres not tons of empty lobbies because everyone is off mindlessly doing PSO2's version of White Beast. They would all be in one area, where you can see and find them easily. Clean and simple, if you ask me.

But there was tons of empty lobbies on PSO, with people clambering to get to Block01-Lobby01 to run Forest or TTF.

A lot of the problems with PSU's lobbies were already present in PSO, it was just that PSU covered more space.

I like the idea of "social lobbies"but would people use them? The club & pub in PSU are pretty much always empty.

NoiseHERO
Jul 15, 2011, 08:15 AM
But PSU's lobbies were empty, because the game had a small community...

and because of white beast.

If there was an actual good balance between all the missions being useful, and the population were better. All of the goal lobbies would be more populated. In general I liked them because 1. they looked nice, 2. it made it feel like I wasn't in just one room, then I pick a stage like PSO(How lame) and 3. they further brought the worlds to life.

But admittedly, there were a lot of lobbies that just looked like fodder.

Hotobu
Jul 15, 2011, 08:34 AM
Maybe, instead of lobbies, there would be towns and cities that you can go to that have shops that you can buy stuff, quests you can accept, homes you can live in, people (NPCs) you can talk to, etc. Also, outside those towns and cities, there would be wide, open fields where you can fight creatures or the enemy. Ya know, like most online games have.....

So a kid in an elf hat can come in, open my chests, break my bottles, and take my money and items? Fuck that.

Jade DaBain
Jul 15, 2011, 11:43 PM
So a kid in an elf hat can come in, open my chests, break my bottles, and take my money and items? Fuck that.

LOL! That made me laugh. I doubt though that if Sega made player homes in the game, that people would be able to just walk in or to be able to break things, steal stuff, open chests, etc in your home, but thinking about how the "My Rooms" in PSU went, I might be wrong.

blace
Jul 16, 2011, 12:25 AM
LOL! That made me laugh. I doubt though that if Sega made player homes in the game, that people would be able to just walk in or to be able to break things, steal stuff, open chests, etc in your home, but thinking about how the "My Rooms" in PSU went, I might be wrong.
In PSP2, they can literally fill your room with crap and other useless junk.

Jade DaBain
Jul 16, 2011, 12:44 AM
In PSP2, they can literally fill your room with crap and other useless junk.

Thats what made me say that I may be wrong. PSU was the same way. Also, in PSU, hackers have also done stuff like steal items from your store or inventory or even completely clean out your room and reset it back to default. Of course, Sega didnt do much to fix that. I hope that PSO2 will not have the same problems as I really want to see this game succeed.

Randomness
Jul 16, 2011, 01:03 AM
But PSU's lobbies were empty, because the game had a small community...

and because of white beast.

If there was an actual good balance between all the missions being useful, and the population were better. All of the goal lobbies would be more populated. In general I liked them because 1. they looked nice, 2. it made it feel like I wasn't in just one room, then I pick a stage like PSO(How lame) and 3. they further brought the worlds to life.

But admittedly, there were a lot of lobbies that just looked like fodder.

You young whipper-snappers have no understanding of the HORROR of Crimson Beast. Back then we had to run missions to get to other lobbies.

Even at the end, PSU made it even harder to find people for other runs by putting like four load screens between you and any other mission counter at all times.

NoiseHERO
Jul 16, 2011, 08:53 AM
You young whipper-snappers have no understanding of the HORROR of Crimson Beast. Back then we had to run missions to get to other lobbies.

Even at the end, PSU made it even harder to find people for other runs by putting like four load screens between you and any other mission counter at all times.

Young whipper snapper?! D<

/started PSU when it was 2 months old, but only cause I couldn't get online the first couple months.

and yeah, if the community didn't suck, all you'd have to do was join a party(especially adding that everyone became bitter and started locking all their parties and making it friends onry.)

PSU's lobby system didn't cause all these thing, it suffered from them.

Hotobu
Jul 16, 2011, 09:39 AM
Having to do a mission to get to the next lobby was dumb because if someone had to leave in the middle your party was assed out. PSO had it right. What PSO really needed was a way to lock and unlock the room (LIKE DAMN NEAR EVERY ROOM ON THE ENTIRE PLANET THAT ISN'T A FREEZER OR A JAIL CELL!) from the inside.

Also PSO's been a bit too real in the past. Counterfeiting, money laundering, robbery, breaking and entering, and even MURDER (NOL).

NoiseHERO
Jul 16, 2011, 09:48 AM
What? How does someone leaving the mission make your party "assed out"? you could leave and come back at will. and if someone in your party was in the right place, you could be teleported to the right lobby. o_O

Ghen V 2.0
Jul 17, 2011, 01:38 PM
Tetsaru, stop comparing Phantasy Star to big name MMOs. Especially when those big name MMOs are garbage.

I like what you're getting at but the more you talk the more it sounds like you want a completely different game. Mounts? Seriously? That's not Phantasy Star at all.
Well, if you want to get technical, mounts really are Phantasy Star if you go back to the roots of the series. There were quite a few vehicles even in the first Phantasy Star on the SMS. ;-p~

I miss riding around on Wren! :/

•Col•
Jul 17, 2011, 03:20 PM
There were mounts in PSU.