Conclusion: Ramarl > Hunewearl (good proof inside...flame a [Archive]

Elusive_Llama

Mar 20, 2003, 10:44 AM

If your attention span is less than 2 minutes, go elsewhere. Otherwise, be prepared to have your world turned upside down...or something ;>

So I'm completely bored at work and decide to work on figuring out how to max stats for a hunny. Damn near impossible, or completely out of the question.

WTF!
>ST

100 extra materials would have really, really helped. I would trade my tp regen for 100 mats any day.

I also managed to figure out how many of each mat my Hunny has eaten to date. Grr...not pretty, but salvageable.

If the mat limit had been mentioned anywhere in the manual, or in-game, I wouldn't have had so much wastage.

Damn you
>ST

So, to skip all the boring-ass calculations, here it is...my final config for my Hunny, with two God/Abilities. It isn't optimal, but I can't afford to redo this character. She's level 145, y'see, and I like her.

Also has a free armor slot where she can put whatever she wants. And, of course, one slot is filled with a God/Battle.

ATP 1229
DFP 589 (maxed, but quite a bit of wasted points)
MST 971
ATA 198
EVP 734
LCK 100

Mag: Sato
DEF 5
POW 99
DEX 96
MIND 0

I went and figured out the best config possible for a Hunny, taking into account that we all need a free armor slot to put cure/* or whatever. One slot is filled with God/Battle, as always.

ATP 1237 (max)
DFP 589 (max)
MST 967
ATA 199 (max)
EVP 706
LCK 100

mag: Sato
DEF 5
POW 76
DEX 98
MIND 21

This optimal config allows for a free armor slot, just like mine, but it is more efficient.

Still...when in actual use, both configs will be pretty much the same in performance - which is the only reason why I haven't already recreated my Hunny.

You Humar lovers out there can point and laugh, I guess...but keep in mind who has the level 20 S/D ;>

I've also come to the conclusion that the Ramarl, usually considered inferior to the Hunny, is actually better.

Yeah, sacrilege, but hear me out...

1) Those 100 mats boost her stats so that you could max them without breaking a sweat, or you could have like 3 free slots with a modest MST/EVP hit.

2) She can use an S-Rank Twin with surprising effectiveness. Besides, she can use all mechguns. +45% hit charge vulcans on a Ramarl is scary.

3) If she wants to take care of a group of enemies, a spread needle is all she needs. Who needs the T-J sword when your Spread Needle is turning everything into a fine red mist whilst paralyzing at the same time?

4) She can use Frozen Shooter and Snow Queen.

5) She gets the same level 20 techs.

6) Her HP at level 200 is actually higher. Not by much, but still higher.

7) Her ATA owns the Hunny's ATA. Completely blows it out of the water.

http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_cool.gif Her EVP owns the Hunny's EVP. Not a significant difference, but it is still higher.

9) Her other stats are not so far off. Only her ATP is noticeably less (1145 vs 1237 = 92 ATP diff).

10) Hunny gets tp regen...which only works when standing still. Woohoo -.- My ramarl has a Geist Laser +40% hit and can refill her tp on the fly, and quicker too.

So there you go...my Hunny will remain my favourite character simply because I like her, but statistically my Ramarl is better.

kieran

Mar 20, 2003, 11:07 AM

yay, i knew i chose a ramarl for a good reason!! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Elusive_Llama

Mar 20, 2003, 11:11 AM

When I was looking for a ranger, I chose a Ramarl only because she was female and had level 20 techs. It took me a while to really appreciate just how good she really is.

Now if I can only get her out of her pantaloons/fatigues and into booty shorts.

Yoda86

Mar 20, 2003, 11:20 AM

If its booty shorts you lookin for or just a great lookin female. The HUnewearl OWNS. She has tons of great costumes!! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_yes.gif

Jae

Mar 20, 2003, 11:32 AM

I agree. The RAmarl has really horrible growing pains early on, but once you get her up to speed she is far better than the HUnewearl overall.

As for the costumes...

Pantaloons > Booty Shorts

I'm only saying that because I'm sick of my HUnewearl getting hit on. I'm a guy damnit. 0_o

Elusive_Llama

Mar 20, 2003, 11:42 AM

Getting hit on doesn't bother me. I just tell them I'm a guy and laugh as I watch them back the hell away. I don't like making ugly characters simply because they're an eyesore...

Elixer

Mar 20, 2003, 11:55 AM

I will go against your decision. I think HUnewearl is better then RAmarl. First off HUnewearl gets more atp then RAmarl and her mst is higher which makes her techs more effective (shifta/deband zalure/jellen). Also i do agree RAmarl does get much more ata but with 3 god/arms and somedex on your mag her ata is fine.

Also my opinion on rangers I feel your best choice would be with the RAcast. Hegets the most hp in the game and has the hghest atp out of the rangers. Also he gets traps which to some people are worth just as much as some tecs. Combined with good dfp and highest hp and atp the RAcast would just be better then RAmarl.

I just think HUnewearl is a better choice then RAmarl and RAcast would also be better.

TeamPhalanx

Mar 20, 2003, 12:21 PM

This is a very flawed argument in that it relies heavily upon stats alone - Basically, RAmarl looks nice on paper.

Take actual combat into consideration.

Realistically, the only techs RAmarl use are Shifta and Deband. Jellen/Zalure's range is too limited. This favors HUnewearl, since she has to get close to the enemies any way.

On the issue of weapons... Eactly how much ATP does SPREAD NEEDLE give? What if I took that number and compared it to some of the weapons that HUnewearl can use? What would I see? S-Rank TWIN? Yeah... that's really impressive when compared to the BKB that HUnewearls can use.

In certain areas, it's a lot easier to be a RAmarl than a HUnewearl; however, that's only because certain areas just favor RAngers more than HUnters.

I'll end this by my usual "back it up" comments.

For all you who think RAmarl is better than HUnewearl, I challenge you to see which one of us can complete areas faster. We could go 1 on 1 or 2 on 2. I prefer 2 on 2 since all areas can be covered that way.

Jae

Mar 20, 2003, 12:36 PM

Ok, I'll bite.

1) S/D/J/Z are not affected by MST. At least I haven't noticed a difference when I raised my new MAG with 0 mind.

2) I guess the ATP vs ATA is a preference, but when the difference in ATP is so small I'll definitely take the ATA advantage. With 3 god/arms and dex on my HUnewearl's MAG, she still had accuracy issues in Ultimate Ruins and Seabed online. My RAmarl on the other hand, parades through those areas hitting everything as though they were Bartles.

3) I'll take a Frozen Shooter and Spread Needle over Rabarta 20 and TJ/Red Sword any day. If you've ever used a Shooter or Needle first hand, then you'll know my reasoning for this. I use the same mechguns for both classes and I'll say that my RA beats out my HU in damage by far... only because of her ability to start mechgun combos with the HARD hit.

Keep in mind that this is all just my opinion based on my personal playing style. Everyone will have a different opinion and preference. So what was the point of me posting all of this? Honestly, I don't know. I just feel the need to talk PSO. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

I do agree that RAcasts are badass though. I never liked them until I watched my friend level his up to Ultimate. That bot kicks serious ass.

Elusive_Llama

Mar 20, 2003, 12:37 PM

I will go against your decision. I think HUnewearl is better then RAmarl. First off HUnewearl gets more atp then RAmarl

Yes, an additional 92 ATP is always welcome. I think that translates into like 60 or 70 extra damage. This I can't argue with ;>

and her mst is higher which makes her techs more effective (shifta/deband zalure/jellen).

I took this into account when I typed up my post. Technically, a hunny gets more MST at max (146). However, as you can see, it's hard enough maxing the important stats like ATP, ATA and LCK. Trying to max MST at the same time is asking too much. The Ramarl will end up with more MST due to having an extra 100 mats to play with.

Besides, MST does not affect the power of S/D. Not sure about J/Z, but I don't think it is affected either.

Also i do agree RAmarl does get much more ata but with 3 god/arms and somedex on your mag her ata is fine.

Her ATA will become okay, but the rest of the hunny's stats will get shot to pieces. In my post, she is equipping 2 god/abilities just to get to the stats I had displayed above. She would have no room to equip those god/arms.

If you tried using your god/arm + mag stats method, you'd find it extremely difficult (if not impossible) to max ATP and LCK.

Also my opinion on rangers I feel your best choice would be with the RAcast. He gets the most hp in the game and has the hghest atp out of the rangers. Also he gets traps which to some people are worth just as much as some tecs. Combined with good dfp and highest hp and atp the RAcast would just be better then RAmarl.

This I can argue...somewhat. The only trap worth setting is the freeze trap. A Snow Queen can achieve the same effect, even in close quarters. Freeze traps work very well to get you out of situations where you're surrounded. However, using a telepipe will also get you out of danger.

As for the ATP and HP issue, Racast gets some pretty mad hp and the high ATP always helps when using mechguns. He's probably the best in online play. But in offline play, without tech support, he's not as good as a Ramarl. Basically, he's geared towards online whereas the ramarl can not only own offline, she can walk into any online game and do well.

Jae

Mar 20, 2003, 01:11 PM

On 2003-03-20 09:21, TeamPhalanx wrote:
Take actual combat into consideration.

I did, seeing as how I have played both characters to nearly the same level.

I don't know about other RAmarl players around here, but my RAmarl is a jellen/zalure spam-whore. Always on the front lines with the HUs. Spread Needle and Mechguns REQUIRE you to be relatively close to be effective.

I admit, the Spread Needle gives really sad ATP compared to say the Red/T-J Sword. My 400 damage per hit in Ruins will pale in comparison to the 700+ damage I've seen equally leveled HUnewearls do with T-J or Red Sword. But the slightly further/wider range and sheer speed/recovery time of the Needle will still allow you to dish out equal, if not more damage to a group of enemies. That and the fact that you won't have to deal with parrying hits after the combo finishes. Equivalent damage in less time.

I'm not going to get into the twin issue since I NEVER melee with my RA unless I'm just messing around. If I go one-on-one, mechguns all the way.

As for the time challenge, that would be real interesting to see. Although I'm sure in most cases the HUnewearl would win since they are NATURALLY stronger and not many people bother to optimize their characters. But optimized HUnewearl versus optimized RAmarl? Hmmmm. Your 180+ HUnewearl is a bit out of my league though. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Elusive_Llama

Mar 20, 2003, 01:35 PM

This is a very flawed argument in that it relies heavily upon stats alone - Basically, RAmarl looks nice on paper.

Take actual combat into consideration.

I have both characters. Level 145 Hunewearl. Level 130 Ramarl. I play mostly online ultimate. I'm also a stat whore.

I know what I'm talking about, heh.

Realistically, the only techs RAmarl use are Shifta and Deband. Jellen/Zalure's range is too limited. This favors HUnewearl, since she has to get close to the enemies any way.

I use Jellen a lot. I have to be close anyway with my Ramarl because of the horrid range on my Spread Needle, and that means I can (and do) get hit. I don't even bother casting Zalure because I'm already too busy destroying everything.

On the issue of weapons... Eactly how much ATP does SPREAD NEEDLE give? What if I took that number and compared it to some of the weapons that HUnewearl can use? What would I see? S-Rank TWIN? Yeah... that's really impressive when compared to the BKB that HUnewearls can use.

It is the best doublesaber weapon that Ramarls can use. I never said it was the best doublesaber ever - just that Ramarls can be surprisingly good with an S-rank twin. It is obvious a BKB owns it, thus I never said it didn't.

Spread is 190 ATP at full grind, but you see, I can pump out spread needle shots like no tomorrow. It is much faster than a T-J sword, and I don't have to move as I'm firing the gun. I can do it from a distance too, plus it helps that I have good %s on my spread. By the time a T-J sword is cooling down at the 3rd hit, the spread needle is already into the first combo hit.

But, as you say, take actual combat into account and don't rely on stats. Right? ;>

Statwise, Spread Needle sucks compared to T-J sword. In combat, it is a whole different story.

I play online ultimate ruins with my ramarl, and I have no problems using the spread needle to deal with packs of anything except Indi Belras/Dark Bringers. Repeat - no problems. On the other hand, my hunewearl is prone to getting smacked if she tries a full combo, so she ends up doing the usual W-H-run thing.

In certain areas, it's a lot easier to be a RAmarl than a HUnewearl; however, that's only because certain areas just favor RAngers more than HUnters.

I'll end this by my usual "back it up" comments.

To reiterate, I have a level 145 Hunewearl and a level 130 Ramarl. I have extensive combat experience with those two.

For all you who think RAmarl is better than HUnewearl, I challenge you to see which one of us can complete areas faster. We could go 1 on 1 or 2 on 2. I prefer 2 on 2 since all areas can be covered that way.

I'd take you up on that challenge, except I think your hunewearl is at level 180.

No matter...how about HS? Let's try that. We'll work through HS solo, killing everything in a preset path, and record the times. I'll bring my Snow Queen, Spread Needle and +45% hit charge mechguns. I'll start on it as soon as I get home from work. My level 130 ramarl vs your level 180 hunewearl. I don't care if I do lose due to differences in level...call me curious.

Elusive_Llama

Mar 20, 2003, 01:44 PM

Elusive_Llama

Mar 20, 2003, 02:12 PM

Hey Jae, if you're curious about this too, want to arbitrate? The three of us can start up an Ult. HS game, then both you and Phal time me as I tear through the level.

Don't enter rooms until I've killed everything, and I mean everything - even those tollaws which pop up after you attack those boxes in the small recess which were guarded by a blue barrier.

Here's the plan of attack:

1) Enter first room and kill everything that pops up.

2) Go to second room and kill everything.

3) Hit the switch and kill the tollaws which pop up.

4) Enter third room and kill everything.

5) Move to fourth room and kill everything, then hit the blue switch and backtrack to the third room. Kill the tollaws which pop up when you go near the boxes.

6) Move to the fifth room and kill the moths, then attack the boxes at the far end and kill the bartles/barbles which appear. Finally kill the second set of moth in front of the door.

7) Move to the sixth room and kill everything. Enter the seventh room, hit the switch, then kill the tollaws which pop up near the boxes.

http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_cool.gif Go to Forest 2.

9) Hit the blue door switch and go down to that area with the computer on the island. Kill everything.

10) Head left and enter that big room where the barbles and single tollaw shows up. Kill them.

11) Leave the room and go down the 'hallway', make a left into that small room with the boxes. Kill the 3 barbles which show up.

12) Head out into the hallway and either kill or make the rappies run away. Kill everything that shows up in the big clearing, including the two hidelts which appear.

13) Backtrack to the blue energy barrier just a few steps behind, and enter that room next to the pond. Go towards the blue barrier and tollaws will appear. Kill them.

14) Go back into the big clearing and make a right. Kill the moths, then the gulgus and gulgus-gue. Go through that door at the end and kill everything that spawns up to and including the gulgus and bartle/barble. Make your way back to the big clearing where you killed those hidelts.

15) Enter the remaining room and kill everything up to and including the rappies, barble and bartle in the small room with the boxes and confuse trap.

16) Enter the teleporter. Kill everything.

17) Go down to the room with the box and kill the two hidelts which appear when you open the box.

18) Go to the final room and kill everything.

19) Fight the sil dragon. Stop the timer as soon as the dragon is dead and the dying animation is over.

Jae

Mar 20, 2003, 02:34 PM

I wouldn't mind arbitrating. Heck I'd even be willing to participate since my friends and I do time attack on Heatsword runs almost every night. I'm fairly sure that I could put up a decent time, but I'm also ready to accept a defeat at the hands of Phalanx's (probably maxed ATP) 180+ HUnewearl. lol

My only issue is my jam packed school/work schedule. I'm usually never online until after 9 or 10 pm PST. That includes weekends too.

*edit* I just remembered something. Phalanx... no Vjaya for you darnit. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[ This Message was edited by: Jae on 2003-03-20 11:39 ]

Elusive_Llama

Mar 20, 2003, 02:47 PM

edit: lol timezones screw me up

Hey Jae, I'm on Eastern Standard, and I'm usually online from 6pm EST onwards. If you get on around 9pm PST, that would be midnight my time. I'm still awake then, so mebbe we could still do it. HS isn't that long anyway, and as long as we're clear on the route of attack, it shouldn't be too hard.

About the Vjaya thing...you bring up a good point. If he can't use a Vjaya, then I can't use my charge mechguns. No matter, I have a set of 50% Thunder Vulcans, or my Red Mechs. I'll even bring either my Twin Blaze or S-rank Twin.

[ This Message was edited by: Elusive_Llama on 2003-03-20 11:52 ]

Jae

Mar 20, 2003, 03:01 PM

Geez man, what time do you sleep during the week? By the time I get online it's already 12 or 1 am for you. lol

*edit* Edited posts screw me up :P

Ahh I was just joking about not bringing the Vjaya. But I'm sure any HU with decent ATA and a whole lotta cash would wipe the floor in time attack with our little RAmarls. They would also be very broke too. What is it like 10,000 meseta per SWING? Yikes! Either way, I use what you brought... Vjaya, Charge Vulcan or what have you. I'm slightly handicapped since an FSOD ate my Charge Gats, but whatever I'll make do.

If we can actually all meet up and do this, it'll be real interesting to see the results. It's great 'real-world' research, not to mention it satisfies the PSOW need for pissing contests. ^^

For sure, tonight is definitely not good for me. I've got class that runs 6:30 - 10:30 pm tonight.

*double edit* If anything, I can pit my RAmarl against your HUnewearl too. They're nearly equal levels.

[ This Message was edited by: Jae on 2003-03-20 12:06 ]

Elusive_Llama

Mar 20, 2003, 03:25 PM

Sleep is for the weak ;>

We could do it another day, when you're free. Meanwhile, I can do practice HS runs.

Really though, the Vjaya uses 10k meseta per swing, no matter how many enemies you actually hit with it. 10 swings, and that's 100k. You'd need more than 10 swings to get through HS, so if he does use it, he'd have to burn through close to half a million if he wants to beat the living hell out of HS.

It works extremely well, but it isn't fair to us, and it isn't a weapon he'd use every day.

Same goes with charge mechs...I only use them now and then, and only after having a lot of cash on my person.

*still waits for Phal to accept the challenge*

TeamPhalanx

Mar 20, 2003, 04:05 PM

No restrictions and all areas. One area isn't enough to say anything. And, in the case of HS, a HUnter would finish HS faster than a RA - That's not fair. All areas means that each class gets to be in an area that favors and disfavors them.

Then again, if you insist on restrictions... How about doing the way it was supposed to be and say everyone involved uses only legit items?

Elusive_Llama

Mar 20, 2003, 04:22 PM

Legit non-charge/berserk/spirit weps only, eh?

I guess my Ramarl will use:

Snow Queen 30/35/0/0/15

Spread Needle 20/0/20/25

Red Mechguns with 20% - 25% in native, a. beast and dark (can't remember exact #s)

or Thunder Mechguns with 50% hit.

Whee! All of them legit!

As for HUs finishing HS faster than RAs, I'll challenge that claim, if only to see if it is true.

double edit:

We could do just HS, no need for other areas.

Suppose HUs can finish HS faster than RAs can, and let's say that my Ramarl wins. There would no further need for doing other areas.

[ This Message was edited by: Elusive_Llama on 2003-03-20 13:27 ]

TeamPhalanx

Mar 20, 2003, 04:41 PM

Um... I wasn't serious about that comment. Putting any restrictions would be ridiculous. Also, only doing one area would also be ridiculous, since it doesn't tell the whole tale.

For example, take a FOnewm and a FOmarl. Only doing HS, FOnewm would win easily. However, if all the stages were done, FOmarl would win.

BrokenHope

Mar 20, 2003, 05:22 PM

Heh i think it should be done with legit items too, i mean having multiple god/ability units, duped armor, shields etc is hardly a level playing field when phalanx will be using all legit stuff, granted phalanx is a much higher level, but you knew that before the challange was made.

Jae

Mar 20, 2003, 05:34 PM

Yea you do have a point about multiple areas Phalanx. I'm fairly confident I can solo through even though I've never tried Ruins or Seabed online by myself. When it's time for Seabed, well...

On 2003-03-20 11:34, Jae wrote:
I'm also ready to accept a defeat at the hands of Phalanx's (probably maxed ATP) 180+ HUnewearl.

LOL

But as for legit gear, I could live with that restriction. I wouldn't lose any of my mainstay equipment there.

BTW, very nice %s on your stuff Llama!

*edited* for clarification purposes

[ This Message was edited by: Jae on 2003-03-20 15:11 ]

TeamPhalanx

Mar 20, 2003, 05:47 PM

Cheat weapons won't make much of a difference. After all, this isn't v2 with 180% weapons.

Basically, I want my opponents to be at their best, so they have no excuse when they lose.

Breaking it down..

Favors HUnters:
Heat Sword
Ice Spinner
Ruins
CCA

Favors RAngers:
Mines
VR Temple
VR Spaceship
Seabed

As far as Bosses go, RAngers have the advantage with shotguns and 9000M.

Jae

Mar 20, 2003, 06:14 PM

Really rubbing in the salt there, eh Phalanx?

So tell me, what gives HUs and RAs the advantage in those areas you specified? I'm not saying anything against the breakdown but I would just like to hear your reasoning.

Elusive_Llama

Mar 20, 2003, 06:42 PM

Phalanx, you're the dude who's the super uber legit. When you make such a comment, it can be taken no other way.

What would your hunewearl bring by way of weapons?

- Thanks Jae, I try to provide the best for my Ramarl.

As for HUs and RAs having advantages in certain areas, I'd like to hear the reasoning too. For example, how do the Ruins favor HUs?

TeamPhalanx

Mar 20, 2003, 07:53 PM

I did originally write some brief explanations, but edited them out - Made post too long. I also thought the reasons were pretty obvious. But, if you insist...

Areas that have a lot of swarming type of enemies favors HUnters. They're fast, and they lock on to you. Such situations are ideal for HUnters using swords and partisans. (and for FOnewm, but that's another topic)

HS, IS, Ruins all have these types of enemies.

CCA favors HUnters because it's almost all 1-on-1 confrontations. This is where HUnters get to use their double/twin saber type weapons.

Mines and VR Spaceship favors RAngers because they have very slow enemies - And Baranz. Such situations beg the use of shotguns and FROZEN SHOOTER.

VR Temple has small and large room infested with Ob Lily. And small areas with multiple Indi Belra aren't all that friendly either. Bad situation for HUnters, but not too difficult for a RAnger.

Seabed was practically made for RAngers. It has several large rooms made for rifles, and almost every enemy there is a complete nuisance to HUnters. Freezing enemies is key there, and RAngers can easily do that.

Robomonke

Mar 20, 2003, 10:50 PM

On 2003-03-20 07:44, Elusive_Llama wrote:
You Humar lovers out there can point and laugh

*Points and laughs* Ha Ha. But at the risk of sounding off topic. i seriously dislike HUnewearls. yeah sure they look "cute" but i don't date pixels and think its sad cuz people pick classes based ob how "sexy" they are. I havent seen a truelly good HUnewearl yet. They are trying to cover too many bases. Not enough ATP or HP or EVA to be an effective HUnter not enough MST to be a force, and not enough ATA to be as effective as a RAnger. you end up with a character that can do alot but not do any of it very well.

If you want spells be a FO. if you want damage go with HUmar or HUcast. If you want a mix be a FOmar. (god knows we need some smart people to be ones. I havent seen a single person that can use a FOmar effectivly ive heard the Hype about Sean X9300 being a really effective FOmar and i must say that he is more effective than most FOmars but still doesnt live up to it. I did a few ULT ruins with him and his performance wasn't so hot.)

So go ahead and say what you want you dirty fanboys. (snapple is gonna have my head for this one...) http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/twak.gif

[ This Message was edited by: Robomonke on 2003-03-20 19:57 ]

walla

Mar 21, 2003, 01:25 AM

Robomonke, you are an idiot. First off, HUnewearls (and RAmarls) are the most well-rounded character. They are great for offline and online play. Both chars. are self-sufficient. Plenty of times I've had to play FO with my huney, providing S/D and J/Z. Hell, I've done whole runs with just me and another HUcast on several occasions. I'd like to see a HUmar do the same and have an easier time. And Huney EVP is good enough. My huney doesn't use any leg units and ate no evp mats, and I can block 100% of all blockable enemies in forest to mines and also VR Temple/Spaceship. I also block most of the enemies in GDV (excluding sinows, block a few times), and dolmolms and dolmdaris in Seabed. Not enough ATA? Humar only has 1 more point of max ATA, in which both chars have more than HUcast. HUney ATP is not the best, but it's definitely good enough. With a FO, I can still kill most enemies with one combo. And without a FO, access to Shifta and Zalure is one of the added benefits. HUmars are great for team play when a FO is around. In all other situations, they aren't as useful. Whereas a HUney (and RAmarl) can do well in all situations. Not to mention offline is a breeze, having a much easier time than a HUmar.

And if you're going to sit there and make stupid assumptions about people picking huneys, I have, by far, seen HUmars sucking the most out of all the characters. It doesn't help that a lot of beginners pick HUmars either. He's the poster boy for PSO, and there are so many unoriginal HUmars out there. Oh look, there's a Shadow, or a Vyse, or some other DBZ-esque HUmar. Who's that annoying person in the lobby doing symbol chats, asking for rares, etc.? I've noticed more often times than not it's a HUmar.

I'm not saying HUmars suck, cause they don't, but such ignorant comments coming from one who plays a HUmar is laughable at best.

[ This Message was edited by: walla on 2003-03-21 00:11 ]

Sim2002

Mar 21, 2003, 09:21 AM

On 2003-03-20 09:36, Jae wrote:
I do agree that RAcasts are badass though. I never liked them until I watched my friend level his up to Ultimate. That bot kicks serious ass.

I wonder who you could be talking about Jae http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Back on topic I would love to see this happen. Infact if you want a total netural person there I can volunteer my time. You can ask Jae about my knowledge if need be, but seeing as I have a FOnewm and a RAcaseal I am not going to even try and get in this little pissing-match http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

But I would love to watch/time the event. Becuase I know I am going to hear about it anyways. So if you three want me to be the unofficial-official judge let me know. And we would have to plan this out as my time is even harder to come by then Jae's. But if I know in advance I can meet almost anytime.

BTW If my FO was a higher level I would challenge all of you http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif Nothing can mop up a room faster then a high level FOnewm spamming. But being only 125 I don't feel I am there yet.

Anywho let me know, if my services will be needed.

Elusive_Llama

Mar 21, 2003, 11:40 AM

One thing I want to know, Phalanx, is if you have ever used a Spread Needle?

Swarming enemies tend to bump into each other and do a little roundabout. This usually means that they disperse briefly, then reconverge back on you.
With the limited range and arc of a sword or partisan, it is rare to hit all of them with a full combo.

A spread needle, despite its horrid range, is still a gun and gets more reach than swords or partisans. Its arc is not only wider than a sword/partisan, it remains constant throughout the combo.
That means you can stand still and hit the same number of enemies for each shot in the combo. A sword/partisan cannot do the same, or at least they can't do that most of the time.

I like to think of spread needles as the mechguns of any Ranger's shotgun lineup. Statistically, they appear rather weak. Realistically, they're pwnage.

Sim2002, you're welcome to be the official timer for the HS time attack. As with any contest, to prevent any dispute, rules must be laid down.

All 4 of us get into a game of HS. After figuring out the order, all of us head down to the surface.

Rules:
------
1) No charge/berserk/spirit weapons (ie. Baranz Launcher, Vjaya, Charge mechguns, DB saber, etc.). Everything else is fair game (PBs, spells, armor, etc).

In particular, the Vjaya is incredibly expensive to use. 10k meseta a swing isn't cheap. 10 specials and you're out 100k. It IS extremely powerful, but extremely impractical. Quite frankly, it can't be considered one of a HU's mainstay weapons. I have only seen a couple HUs using it online, and not one of them used the special.

On the other hand, charge vulcans are practical because they cost only 1200 meseta per W-S-S combo. But in the interest of fairness, all charge weapons should be disallowed...

2) The timer starts when the judge (Sim2002) says 'go'. No pre-casting of S/D!

3) Print out and follow the route I had described up there. Do a couple practice runs beforehand to get the route down pat. It allows for killing *everything* in HS.

4) Contestants must kill everything in the quest. Don't leave anything alive. Rappies are an exception - if you choose to fight them, fine. If you want to make them run away, that's also fine.

5) No interference is allowed. Spectators must stand in the previous room, or outside of monster targeting range. In particular are the rooms that are confined and full of things to kill. If anybody else is there, some monsters WILL target them and that'll be indirect interference...

6) Only the player whose turn it is can enter the boss teleporter and fight the dragon. This is because the dragon will target one person and run after him/her. Everybody else pipes up and waits at the main teleporter. As soon as the player reappears, stop the timer.

The biggest problem I foresee is indirect interference, so please remember to stay far, far back...or stand in the previous room until you see the player's arrow move into the next room.

Jae

Mar 21, 2003, 12:13 PM

Hey I'm not in this for the pissing... I can do that on my own time. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif But it just sounds like a whole lot of fun. Should I suffer 'defeat' to anybody, I would have a great time doing it.

Having completed a full Ruins run last night and after watching various upper-mid level HUmars (lvl 130-165) getting mobbed by Arlans (yes I even used j/z at all times), I still say that the Spread Needle is more effective than any Sword/Partisan type. Whether there is any truth to that statement, we shall see soon enough.

C'mon Sim. Get into the fun and break it down with your FOnewm too. He's a lot stronger than you're giving credit for.

Elusive_Llama

Mar 21, 2003, 12:56 PM

A decent fonewm will own everything in HS with his Ra-techs, no question ;>

TeamPhalanx

Mar 21, 2003, 01:06 PM

Do you know why I don't put limits? Because putting limits on equipment is putting limits on the class itself. And this is about proving which class is better.

The best way to determine which is the overall better class is to do all the areas. Each area is different and each favors one class more than the other - You can't argue against this.

Rules only make things more complicated. So, how about we make this real simple.

2 HUnewearl vs 2 RAmarl

1 Heat Sword
1 Ice Spinner
1 Mines
1 Ruins
1 VR Temple
1 VR Spaceship
1 CCA
1 Seabed

(bosses included)

HS & IS because they always have the same maps. I would prefer 3 runs of the other areas, but that'd take too much time.

Since there are 2 people, let's go with a honor system. The 2 members on the team keep time, and will report the results here - The 2 will be blind (They will not know each other's time until they post it). The odds that both persons will lie are low. The average of the two will be taken as the actual data.

Time starts when both players enter the area, and ends after the boss falls (after the death animations)

I doubt anyone here would challenge my credibility in this. That is, I doubt anyone would challenge whatever time I report.

Don't like this idea, then let's ask the public.

To everyone who is reading this, which do you think is more effective in determining the HUnewearl vs RAmarl debate?

I say all areas, no restrictions, and a honor system.

Other side says restrictions, as far as I know one area, and a time keeper.

Elusive_Llama

Mar 21, 2003, 01:22 PM

Phal, you're complicating things too.

The reason why I said one area, restrictions and a time keeper is because of your claim that a Hunewearl can complete areas faster than a Ramarl.

You did say a HU has the advantage in HS. I say a RA has the advantage in HS. So why not resolve our differences using just HS as an example?

Please read carefully, you'll see my logic.

If your HU beats my RA, then your claim is validated. What goes for one area which favors HUs will go for all other areas which supposedly favor HUs, for the reasons you stated above. That is, swarming enemies and one-on-one encounters. There would be no further point in testing areas which favor a RA because I already agree with you that those areas favor them. Besides, your Hunewearl is like level 180. My Ramarl is only 131.

If my RA beats your HU, then that's the end of the argument as far as I'm concerned.

I wanted a timekeeper to lend credibility.

Finally, the restrictions are there because the Vjaya's special will make the contest unfair. My charge mechguns, on my Ramarl with high ATA, will kill things much faster than any hunny using a BKB or whatever.

However, if you insist, we could do 2 runs of HS. One with no restrictions on weaponry. The other with my restrictions. Compare the times or something.

And frankly, I don't have the time to do all those areas. Just organizing for HS is taking long enough what with planning a route and all. Look at my logic for requesting HS only, and forget the other areas, Phal...

Elusive_Llama

Mar 21, 2003, 01:42 PM

Additional clarification:

My 'complications' are really not hard to follow at all. Here's why.

1) Restricting weapon usage to anything that isn't charge/spirit/berserk. Just leave your charge/spirit/berserk stuff in the bank. Problem solved.

2) Following my route for doing HS. Just print out a copy, do a quick practice run (think of it as warm up), and you're set. I will work on making it absolutely clear where each location is. As you're running from one area to another, glance at the notes to make sure you're going the right way.

3) Spectators. After all, we are doing this for fun too and everybody needs to be involved.

Just trail behind the player at a far distance, and don't enter the confined rooms with monsters. If at all possible, don't enter the same room with the player.

All of you have done HS enough to know which rooms not to go into, but if you want I'll flag them for you.

Jae

Mar 21, 2003, 01:59 PM

Even though it would take me a span of days to find the time to do all those areas you specified Phalanx, I could do that if you're willing to be patient. As for the honor system, that sounds just fine to me.

My only issue is that I've NEVER been the greatest map keeper. In places like Seabed and Ruins, I usually end up exploring nearly every room just to get to the next teleporter. Timing something like that won't reflect a character's abilities, it'll instead reflect player ingorance (namely mine) for not memorizing each map.

Llama... care to be lead the way?

Elusive_Llama

Mar 21, 2003, 02:12 PM

Clarified HS path. This is the usual path that people take anyway when they want to kill everything:

1) Start the timer. Spectators stay behind the barrier. Player enters the first room and kills everything, then takes the left exit.

2) Spectators stay in the corridor. Player enters next room and kills everything, then takes the exit.

3) Spectators stay far away from the boxes. Player hits the red switch and kills the Tollaws which pop up, then moves to the next room.

4) Spectators stay behind the doorway. Player kills the two waves of Tollaws, then the wolf-things. Player moves onto the next room.

5) Spectators stay behind the doorway. Player hits the blue switch, then kills the Tollaws which pop up near the boxes. Kill everything else that spawns in that room.

6) Player backtracks to the room in #4. Spectators get outta the way while Player kills the Tollaws which spawn near the boxes.

7) Spectators stay far away from the clearing. Player moves forward and kills the moths which appear. Player attacks the boxes and kills the 2 bartles and 2 barbles which spawn. Moths will appear, so kill them. Player should be standing in front of the door, which unlocks after a few seconds.

8 ) Spectators stay OUT of the room until player kills the Tollaws and the wolf-things. Player moves into the next room, ignoring the teleporter for the moment.

9) Spectators stay behind the doorway. Player hits the blue switch, then kills the Tollaws which pop up near the lone box.

10) Everybody go to Forest 2.

11) Spectators stay where they are. Player moves straight ahead and hits the blue door switch, then goes down the path and kills the moths. A mix of bartles/barbles and a tollaw will spawn, so kill them. Wolf-things will appear, so kill them too. Exit through the door to the left (the one without the switch) and Player should be in a hallway which opens up into the big clearing.

12) Spectators stay out of the room. Player enters the nearest room and several barbles plus a tollaw will show up. Kill 'em all, then get back into the hallway and head towards the big clearing.

13) Spectators stay in the hallway. Player makes a LEFT into the small room with the boxes, then kills the 3 bartles. Go on to confront the rappies. Kill the bartles, wolf-things, and the bartle/barble/tollaw mix. Two hidelts will appear, so kill them too. Go through the blue barrier.

14) Spectators stay far away from the blue barricade at the end, the one with the boxes. Player heads to the barricade and kills the tollaws which show up.

15) Go back into the big clearing and make a RIGHT. Spectators stay in the big clearing while Player kills the moths and wolf-things. Player goes through the door into the area adjacent to the body of water. Several rappies will appear, so make them disappear. A mix of tollaw/bartle/barble will show up, kill them. Next a bartle, a barble and 2 wolf things will appears. Kill them. Go back to the big clearing where the two Hidelts had appeared and move onwards to the next room.

16) Spectators definitely stay out of the room! Player hits the switch, then kills everything which shows up. Hit the red switch and kill the second wave of stuff. Take the teleporter.

17) Spectators don't enter the plateau. Player kills the 2 moths, then whatever else shows up. Take the second teleporter and hit the box. Kill the two hidelts.

18) Okay! Almost done. Spectators stay far out of the way. Player enters the final room and kills the 4 hidelts.

19) Player enters the teleporter ALONE and fights the dragon. Spectators go up to Pioneer 2 and wait at the main teleporter. When Player appears, stop the timer.

Elusive_Llama

Mar 21, 2003, 02:23 PM

I'd be more than happy to be the first to go through everything. About the honor system, I have no problems with that either.

If you're gonna be online tonight, Jae, we'll meet up and go through a game of HS, with you timing me. After that's done, go post your time and I'll post mine. Then we'll do another game where I'll follow and time you.

Jae

Mar 21, 2003, 03:23 PM

Sounds like a plan to me. I should be online tonight after 10pm pst and I'm choice searchable. Greennill RAmarl, Len v6. I probably won't stay past 12am pst though. I've got Saturday class tomorrow at 9am. @!#$&%!@#

Drop me some stats on your character if you're choice searchable too. Or hit me up on AIM or something.

Robomonke

Mar 21, 2003, 04:18 PM

On 2003-03-20 22:25, walla wrote:
Robomonke, you are an idiot. First off, HUnewearls (and RAmarls) are the most well-rounded character. They are great for offline and online play. Both chars. are self-sufficient. Plenty of times I've had to play FO with my huney, providing S/D and J/Z. Hell, I've done whole runs with just me and another HUcast on several occasions. I'd like to see a HUmar do the same and have an easier time. And Huney EVP is good enough. My huney doesn't use any leg units and ate no evp mats, and I can block 100% of all blockable enemies in forest to mines and also VR Temple/Spaceship. I also block most of the enemies in GDV (excluding sinows, block a few times), and dolmolms and dolmdaris in Seabed. Not enough ATA? Humar only has 1 more point of max ATA, in which both chars have more than HUcast. HUney ATP is not the best, but it's definitely good enough. With a FO, I can still kill most enemies with one combo. And without a FO, access to Shifta and Zalure is one of the added benefits. HUmars are great for team play when a FO is around. In all other situations, they aren't as useful. Whereas a HUney (and RAmarl) can do well in all situations. Not to mention offline is a breeze, having a much easier time than a HUmar.

And if you're going to sit there and make stupid assumptions about people picking huneys, I have, by far, seen HUmars sucking the most out of all the characters. It doesn't help that a lot of beginners pick HUmars either. He's the poster boy for PSO, and there are so many unoriginal HUmars out there. Oh look, there's a Shadow, or a Vyse, or some other DBZ-esque HUmar. Who's that annoying person in the lobby doing symbol chats, asking for rares, etc.? I've noticed more often times than not it's a HUmar.

I'm not saying HUmars suck, cause they don't, but such ignorant comments coming from one who plays a HUmar is laughable at best.

[ This Message was edited by: walla on 2003-03-21 00:11 ]

LOL HILLARIOUS! is all I can say. First of all your MST and Shifta and Zalure aren't going to save you in the ATP catagory. Since you seem to be in 3rd grade we will do it in a way you can understand.

HUmar: max ATP 1397 he can also use 100 more mats so he gets 200 more stat points that HUnewearl. meaning less are wasted on POW mats.

HUnewearl: max ATP 1237 not a whole lot less but... her base is OVER 400 less than that. That results in alot of wasted mats (which she can only use 150 of anyway) also the use of GOD/Pows and a heavy POW mag. and about the spells. WHOA! YOU GET 5 MORE SKILL LVL!! THAT OWNZ!!1!!1111!!!!11! D00D!no it doesnt... and her 20 shifta and deband sadly arent enough to match the HUmars ATP, HP, and EVA. and if you apply the same S&D to a HUmar he will still blow her out of the water. Not to mention their HP is somewhere around....hmmm whats the scientific term....? oh i know! CRAP!they have over 100 less than HUmar and over 500 less than HUcast!

now to conclude Walla's 3rd grade speech you spoke out too harshly before you sat back and anylyzed the situation so go have some cookies http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/gingerbread.gif and Milk http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/milk.gif and go sit down. story time is in 10 minutes.

[ This Message was edited by: Robomonke on 2003-03-21 13:28 ]

TeamPhalanx

Mar 21, 2003, 04:22 PM

Let's make it fair then. Let's make a poll on it - Ask the other members here. Not an actual poll, but a post asking which side is correct. Agreed? I don't see how you can argue against that.

We can both write something (under 100 words, for no one likes reading long posts) and let the members decide.

Then we'll see who is truly logical and who is backpedaling.

Khaotika

Mar 21, 2003, 05:03 PM

I would make some offhanded comment about RAmarls being the most unfair class in the game, but most of the points I was going to state have been said. =o

Seeing how that's out of the way, I'd love to see this competition, and the results. =)

I do agree with Phalanx that Seabed = RA excel, Ruins = HU excel. I get my ass handed to me all the time in Ruins*, but the only things that give me probs in Ult Seabed is Mofos (spelled correctly http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif ) and the rooms of Death.

In any case, *cough*... FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!

-Khao

* coz teh Khao does not have teh Spread Needle

TeamPhalanx

Mar 21, 2003, 05:14 PM

Could you please comment on which "fight" you would prefer to see?

The no item restrictions + all areas

or

The item restrictions + Heat Sword only

Khaotika

Mar 21, 2003, 05:20 PM

On 2003-03-21 14:14, TeamPhalanx wrote:
Could you please comment on which "fight" you would prefer to see?

The no item restrictions + all areas

or

The item restrictions + Heat Sword only

The no item restrictions one, definitely. It'd be better to see both sides using their most effective weapons, ...even if there are dupes involved.

Although if there were time constraints, the HS run would be decent as well...although it's not a true test of all of the HUnny/RAmarl's abilities, esp. when it means going through such a cakewalk of an area...

*The "FIGHT!" comment was a joke. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

-Khao

TeamPhalanx

Mar 21, 2003, 05:24 PM

Yeah, but I thought it was funny and just went with it.

I don't think anyone involved would have too many time issues.

MadCowChuck_

Mar 21, 2003, 05:32 PM

On 2003-03-20 22:25, walla wrote:
Robomonke, you are an idiot. First off, HUnewearls (and RAmarls) are the most well-rounded character. They are great for offline and online play. Both chars. are self-sufficient. Plenty of times I've had to play FO with my huney, providing S/D and J/Z. Hell, I've done whole runs with just me and another HUcast on several occasions. I'd like to see a HUmar do the same and have an easier time. And Huney EVP is good enough. My huney doesn't use any leg units and ate no evp mats, and I can block 100% of all blockable enemies in forest to mines and also VR Temple/Spaceship. I also block most of the enemies in GDV (excluding sinows, block a few times), and dolmolms and dolmdaris in Seabed. Not enough ATA? Humar only has 1 more point of max ATA, in which both chars have more than HUcast. HUney ATP is not the best, but it's definitely good enough. With a FO, I can still kill most enemies with one combo. And without a FO, access to Shifta and Zalure is one of the added benefits. HUmars are great for team play when a FO is around. In all other situations, they aren't as useful. Whereas a HUney (and RAmarl) can do well in all situations. Not to mention offline is a breeze, having a much easier time than a HUmar.

And if you're going to sit there and make stupid assumptions about people picking huneys, I have, by far, seen HUmars sucking the most out of all the characters. It doesn't help that a lot of beginners pick HUmars either. He's the poster boy for PSO, and there are so many unoriginal HUmars out there. Oh look, there's a Shadow, or a Vyse, or some other DBZ-esque HUmar. Who's that annoying person in the lobby doing symbol chats, asking for rares, etc.? I've noticed more often times than not it's a HUmar.

I'm not saying HUmars suck, cause they don't, but such ignorant comments coming from one who plays a HUmar is laughable at best.

[ This Message was edited by: walla on 2003-03-21 00:11 ]

Whoa. WHOA! Who are we calling an idiot? I really don't think that's appropriate to say the least.

First of all, what is all this stereotyping here? This sounds like just another HUmar basher here. I mean, seriously, why do people make "No HUmar" games and what not? The HUmar have benefits over the HUnewearl...more HP, more ATP, more DFP (max), more EVP...aren't all these the major stats for a hunter? The HUnewearl basically breaks the HUmar in MST (whoopdie do!) and DFP-base.

Now, there are some people who'll say HUnewearls can break more damage with rafoie than FOrces. Maybe...MAYBE...I can see them breaking over a FOmar or marl...MAYBE. However, consider that she won't be using Mind Mats (if she's smart), or a cane that boosts techs or MST, or lvl 30 techs...there is no way a HUnewearl will break a FOnewm's Rafoie dmg barrier unless you're comparing a lvl 199 HUnewearl to a lvl 5 Fonewm.

RAmarls are not bad at all, conversely. The only real disadvantage over RAmar is that he gets more HP and ATA. She is legimately better than the HUnewearl is support since she can wield Spread Needle and other shots as well as effectively use mechguns with high accuracy. I can't say I've seen many HUnewearls doing that without high Hit photons or God/Arms or anything like that...Snapple's pretty much cornered the market on that. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif
In addition, the RAmarl has pretty balanced stats without covering too many bases like the HUnewearl. IN ADDITON, both her and the HUmar get 100 more mats than any newmen (including HUnewearl) or droid. 100 power mats equals 200 more ATP. And less wasted material usage, as well.

Also, if you're online, why are you doing Ruins runs with two people to begin with. Every good Ruins team, or at least the many I've seen, have FOrces for support, S/D, J/Z, etc...and lvl 20 S/D/J/Z isn't really that much of a boon over HUmars since...well...if you're partying with a HUmar...doesn't he get it, too?

Conclusion: Don't dis HUmars! For crying out loud, stop trying to personally attack robo and every other HUmar. Sure, there are some that are annoying or unoriginal, but then again, the name repetiton isn't just limited to HUmars.
HUnewearls are good in their own respects. They are good party-characters and decent solo-ers, but if you're online as the name of the game suggests, you're not soloing much. Keep that in mind.
There are plenty of good HUnewearls. There are plenty of good HUmars, as well. There are also, obviously, plenty of good RAmarls, as well. Try not and attack people next time you want to make a significant contribution...

TedEdFred

Mar 21, 2003, 05:58 PM

I think a the no item restrictions + all areas would be best.

Jae

Mar 21, 2003, 06:16 PM

I'm a CIS Major that works 40 hours a week and goes to school for an additional 12-16 hours a week during evenings and weekends. That doesn't include homework and studying. You're damned right I'm going to have some time issues. Not to mention that Llama, whom I'm assuming is my partner by default, is in a time zone 3 hours ahead of my own.

But regardless, I still intend to see this through somehow. I don't care what 'rules' get instated or whatever. I was in this for the friendly competition, but if it's going to become one of those not-so-friendly 'something to prove' contests, so be it.

So I ask this: Are we counting any time spent at the shops/hospital toward the final time for each area?

TeamPhalanx

Mar 21, 2003, 06:48 PM

Here's one more thing to strength the "no item restrictions + all areas" argument.

Level. Both duos have an opporunity to make levels somewhat equal. Lama has a chance to get a high lv as his partner. I'll try to get a low lv HUnewearl to balance the playing field.

Moving on...

Lama picks whomever he wishes; there's no default partner. Considering how he has two farily high lv characters, I doubt he has time issues. Either way, the runs can be spread apart.

I would prefer that the time start the very moment both players enter an area, and not stop until the boss for the area is dead. It's just simpler that way.

Oh, this is just common sense thing, but just in case...

Unless there's FSOD or something like that, each team only gets 1 run per area. Neither side gets to do Time Attacks. 1 run, 1 map. Both sides have equal chances of getting good & bad maps.

[ This Message was edited by: TeamPhalanx on 2003-03-21 15:51 ]