Varying weapon stats

[TeamPhalanx]

The site lists some weapons with varying stats, and I've been reading some additional comments on it as well.

In my experience, weapons do not (and never) have varying stats, except for the %. Basically, I'm saying that everyone single (same) weapon you find will have the same ATP & ATA boost. (again, minus hit % and grind)

Any thoughts?

[gideonx]

On 2003-03-21 16:10, gideonx wrote:
Yeah i read in a strat guide that weapon stats that are listed don't change but the actual stats can be different. For instance it says a Red Sword has 611 ATP listed but it's actual damage can be anything from 400 - 611. I don't know how true this is, but to me it doesn't seem real. But, I have never tested it nor read anything about it, so i can't say for sure... Anyone With 2 of these weapons can test if they do different damage to the same mobs...
Varista seems to be the easiest thing you could test this with... says listed is 210, but it can get as low as 155...

So anyone with a few varista's or red swords go try it out on a mob, just make sure that the % are the same on all of them http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Guntz348]

Doesn't the lavis cannon, in V1 DC, max out your ATP if you can equip it? I remeber hearing thats how it worked, way back when. That was the only weapon I've heard of that has different stats. I don't think I've ever seen two of the same weapons that have different stats on GC. I know alot of the V2 hacks did, but that's a horse of a different color.

[TeamPhalanx]

x, think about it. That makes no sense whatsoever. I mean, what if a ATP maxed out HUcast were to use a fully grinded RED SWORD? Do you think damage would be limited to 611?

[VulpesMundi]

On 2003-03-22 08:18, Guntz348 wrote:
Doesn't the lavis cannon, in V1 DC, max out your ATP if you can equip it?


No, it didn't. The thing about version 1 was that the maximum displayed stats were 999, but it was not the actual maximum. You just couldn't see anything above 999. This errata was fixed in version 2.

As for weapons having varying stats, I think that's totally false. I've found a lot of varying repeat weapons and not one of them had anything different than the other. Weapons get their bonuses in the form of grinds and % (and type for basic weapons). Armor get their bonuses in the form of slots and added stats.

I have no idea what the varied stats are there for in the item database, and have actually been wondering that myself. I first thought it was to show base ATP without a grind and ATP at max grind, but most of the ones I've seen have been totally wrong in both cases. Baffling.

Perhaps one of the admins can shed some light on this subject. *Nudge nudge.*

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: VulpesMundi on 2003-03-22 10:36 ]</font>

[DariusValMortis]

The weapons do change because i have about 11 DISKA OF LIBERATORS and some put my attack up more than others. Not to metion my DISKA OF BRAVEMANS do that also.

[LollipopLolita]

weapons have a range of atp per weapon (not ata) and defense items have a range of dfp and evp. and i've seen this myself where two of the same weapon will have different atp. the numbers in the db aren't grinded. that's why across several different pso sites, you will see a little difference in item stats. the damage done is still variable. and the range of numbers that we have are straight from the source: sega/soft bank. don't agree, don't like it, theorize, hypothesize, that's how it is.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: LollipopLolita on 2003-03-22 11:16 ]</font>

[VulpesMundi]

The only differences in ATP (beyond grinded weapons) is with the varying AUW Agito, DB's Sword, and Flowen's Sword. Each one has different stats. Other than that, the ATP does not change on one specific weapon (again, beyond grinds). Sega/Soft Bank can profess variances in ATP all they want, but seeing as I've been playing this game for three versions and have never seen two of the same weapon with different base ATP values I'll believe my eyes first. Experience is a lot more reliable than word of mouth. Especially when we're talking about Sega & Sonic Team and how easily they mess the simplest things up in this game. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Edit: Forgot to put Agitos along with the DB's Sword and Flowen's Sword.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: VulpesMundi on 2003-03-22 14:06 ]</font>

[Nishpa]

I have no idea if this is correct, but the way I interpreted it was that it is the range that the weapon could do with each hit. Because every time you hit an enemy the dmg is slightly different, giving a single dmg for a weapon is misleading. Some weapons seem to have tighter damage distributions than others, and this would explain why. In this case it would be a lot like dmg ranges on weapons that are common in other games (like diablo 2).
However, this is just a guess; I dont know for sure.

[TeamPhalanx]

I'm with Vulpes on this one. I went through my inventory and didn't notice any difference between ATP. My RAmarl has almost a dozen GUILTY LIGHT, and they did not differ in base ATP.

Until I actually see two weapons with different numbers... I don't buy it.

[Nishpa]

Perhaps I shold clarify my theory.

Except for %'s, every copy of a particular weapon you find is the same. They will have same some damage displayed in your stat window (unless they have different numbers of grinders). There is no variability at this point.

However, when you actually attack with the weapon the dmg will be variable, even when attacking the same enemy with the same weapon.
I think this might be the manifestation of that dmg range given in the database.

Some weapons with a very tight ditribution, like a double saber (which the database says goes from 150-152) never vary in dmg by more than 1 or 2 points. But some other weapons with larger ranges seem to have greater variability with each attack.

[VulpesMundi]

ATP cannot be taken as damage. They're two totally different things. But yes, you're correct with saying that damage will vary. Usually the higher the ATP score, the more varied the damage will be. But to say a specific weapons will do a specific range of damage is ludicrous, as giving it to characters with different ATP scores will obviously result in different damages. Heck, even taking it into different areas with enemies that have different defenses will result in different damages.

[Nishpa]

I'll toss some numbers on here too
Vencoris (my lvl 73 fomar) vs bartles (weak attacks)

Double saber (150-152) only 2 atp variability:
106
107
105
106
105
106

Varista (155-210): 55 atp variability
97
88
105
108
102
99


notice the greater range of dmg on the varista due to the broader atp range on each hit.
The double saber in this case is doing more avg than the varista because it is ground to +35. But I think that just makes its dmg range 220-222.

[Nishpa]

Those dmg ranges above are just 6 hits in a row from each, but that is the sort of behavior I am seeing while using them all the time.
Actually, after doing these tests I am far more certain that my theory is right.

[BlankTK]

Certain weapons have a lot of variance and others dont.

The best example i can think of is between S-Rank Sword and Red Sword.

S-Rank Sword has absolutely no variance.
Red Sword has a lot of variance.

Its based on the weapon and nothing else since both have very comparable ATP.

[Kupi]

Okay, let me try to re-state what others have said here: any copy of the same weapon will list the same ATP boost in your equipment menu. But when you hit an enemy with that weapon, the ATP added to you from that weapon could be anything within that range that's listed, hence the damage variance on different attacks. Is that clear?

EDIT: And, furthermore, the variance will be the same on any copy of the same weapon. Two Double Sabers will have the same amount of variance in ATP on strike.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kupi on 2003-03-22 14:47 ]</font>

[VulpesMundi]

I looked closer into this and it's starting to make sense. I think the big confusion was that some of us originally thought that the variance referred to what the base ATP could be, and it's been common knowledge that the base ATP of all weapons is static. Anyway, I've come to the following conclusion about what those varied stats mean in the weapon database.

Let's use a Red Sword as an example. It has a base ATP of 611 and grinds to +52, giving it a max ATP of 715. The item database lists its ATP as 400-611.

The first number (400) is the bare minimum variable ATP. The second number (611) is the maximum variable ATP (before grinds are added, of course). The second number also shows what the original ATP score is (base ATP) before any grinds are added. By that it means that when calculating damage it will vary between 400 and 611 ATP added to your character's ATP. So one swing a Red Sword might use 600 ATP + char ATP, and another swing it might use 450 ATP + char ATP. Grinding a weapon does seem to increase both the minimum and maximum ATP variance. So a Red Sword +52 would have an ATP variance of 504-715

The one issue with this is that 1 ATP does not equal 1 damage.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: VulpesMundi on 2003-03-22 15:06 ]</font>

[gideonx]

Yeah I think you are right there VulpesMundi. It would make sense. Therefore a 400-700 damage weapon might not be as reliable as a 600-650 weapon http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif. Makes me think of weapons in a whole different way.
I never said that the listed damage would change... I just said that it's actual atp score could change, never thought it meant to differ from hit to hit.
And when i said "damage" in my above post i meant ATP

On 2003-03-21 16:10, gideonx wrote:
For instance it says a Red Sword has 611 ATP listed but it's actual damage [atp] can be anything from 400 - 611. Anyone With 2 of these weapons can test if they do different damage to the same mobs...
Varista seems to be the easiest thing you could test this with... says listed [atp] is 210, but it can get as low as 155[atp]...

[Kupi]

One thing we might want to look into, though: does a ground weapon increase damage range only, or damage in all scenarios? Like what you said, Vulpes, about the Red Sword having a range of 400-611 and 400-715 when fully ground. Might it actually be 504-715? It'd be easy to test this, we'd just have to check the damage difference between two weapons of the same type, one ground and the other not, and then record the damage ranges. It'd be interesting to test out...

[VulpesMundi]

As I said in my previous post: Grinding a weapon does seem to increase both the minimum and maximum ATP variance. So a Red Sword +52 would have an ATP variance of 504-715.

I tried out my Red Sword +52 and the damage variance was roughly 30 points.