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Sigmund
Jun 27, 2012, 06:04 PM
Since there's a topic about Force, we might as well have one!

RESOURCES

The Hunter's talent tree
http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html

Data for each rank can be found on these japanese wikis:
Japanese PSO2 wiki 1 (http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?act=url&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.ca&sl=ja&tl=en&twu=1&u=http://wikiwiki.asia/pso2/index.php%3F%25A5%25CF%25A5%25F3%25A5%25BF%25A1%25 BC&usg=ALkJrhgfhIlMjMIdqHzHfOYIT5t92gdZ7A)
Japanese PSO2 wiki 2 (http://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fpso2.swiki.jp%2Findex.php%3F%25E3%2 583%258F%25E3%2583%25B3%25E3%2582%25BF%25E3%2583%2 5BC)

Useful compilation of abilities, weapons and PAs
Tip: Copy and paste the JP names to search the market
Super-awesome-world-ending-Google-doc-compilation (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Akbdpi65EON1dGRTd2hqNXBQMW1Lak9SOFJKM1Utb UE&gid=0)
Credit to the anonymous maintaining this.

FAQ
*Last updated: July 18th*

Q: What are the sword/wired lance/partisan gears?
A: They add extra abilities to your weapon type, they all function by charging up a power bar. With a charged power bar, it unlocks an extra property to your weapon.

Sword:

Nova Strike and Rising Edge: Cuts down charging time from 5s to 1s
Sonic Arrow: Hits 1/2/3 times depending on the number of charges
Stun Coincide: Increases duration of the stun
Twister Fall: Increases shock wave count from 1 to 3
Cruel Throw: Increases raw damage



Wired lance: Powers up the damage of your Photon Arts by 30%.


Partisan: Increases the range of your Photon Arts

A comparison of the range increase can be found here (http://youtu.be/2bHb3zitMcI?t=5m53s)



Q: Does JA Bonus 1/2 affects the damage of Photon Arts? *updated*
A: It has been tested that JA Bonus does in fact affect Photon Arts, making it a very worthwhile talent. The bonus is in fact multiplicative, meaning that a 500 atk PA will become 500 * 110% = 550 atk at rank 10 JA Bonus.

Q: What is the maximum number of talent points I can spend? (as of July 18th)
A: The maximum level is currently 40 and there's a quest which gives you 5 SP, meaning that you've 45 SP to spend.

Q: What should my build be if I play X weapon and I want to do Y things?
A: Try to read the thread first to see if there's anything similar. Then post your build along with details so we can talk about it.

Q: Verdict on Fury Critical?
A: According to a fellow member of this board, Adelheid (http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2786444&postcount=164), this talent isn't worthwhile. Through testing, he found out that a critical hit doesn't multiply your damage by 1.5x or 2x like in typical games. It merely enables you to constantly deal the max number of your damage range. Meaning that if your damage range is 100~200, a critical hit will always do 200 damage. The overall increase in your average DPS will increase by 2~3%.

Q: Guard 101
A: Guarding is a Hunter exclusive ability that allows you to block an attack in front of you by pressing SHIFT. There are two types of guard:

Normal Guard:
Executed by holding SHIFT
Consumes PP, no PP left = you get hit
Receives damage, although greatly reduced
Flinches after impact
Some attacks are un-guardable (i.e.: Rockerbear's grab, Dragon's spirit bomb, ...)
Just Guard:
Must be enabled by ranking Just Guard in the talent tree
Executed by timing your SHIFT just before you get hit, leniency is about 0.5s(?)
Consumes no PP, can be used at 0 or low PP
Damage is nullified, in fact you gain temporary invincibility frames
Doesn't flinch you after impact
Attacks that are un-guardable can be blocked with Just Guard (because of said invincibility frames)
Returns damage to the enemy you blocked

It's worth noting that guard canceling works differently depending on the weapon you use. Sword can guard cancel any PA on the ground as well as in the air. Partisan can't guard cancel PAs on the ground (instead, use dash cancel or jump cancel into guard), but can do so in the air.

Q: Is S-ATK or R-ATK used when calculating the damage of Gunslash Photon Arts?
A: Depends on the PA. Tri-Impact and Serpent Air are exclusively from S-ATK. Aiming Shot and Thrillsplosion are exclusively from R-ATK. Rage Dance and Ein Raketen are S-ATK for the melee portion of the skill and R-ATK for the shot component.

Q: What are the benefits for ranking S-ATK Up 1/2 and S-DEF Up talents?
A: Equipments in PSO2 aren't restricted by level. Instead, each weapon and armor possess a stat restriction on them that needs to be met. This stat restriction depends on your base stats, meaning that active skills and equipment bonuses doesn't count. Depending on your race and gender (http://imgur.com/1ivuQ), you may need some small boost in order to equip better equipments sooner. Other than MAGs, S-ATK Up and S-DEF Up can both help you increase your base stats.

That's it for now, start asking questions or something!

Sigmund
Jun 27, 2012, 09:23 PM
Guess I'll get the discussion starting, sorry for the double post.

So, every other Hunters I've come across went for the offensive side of the talent tree. Up until the latest content of the open beta, it's true that nothing really needs to be tanked since most boss patterns are easily avoidable. What about the future though? What if bosses have multi-attacks or moves with an extended active frame? This would render dodging quite the challenge.

As comparison, at rank 10, Fury Stance increases your attack by 150, but lowers your defense by 200. Whereas at the same rank, Guard Stance increases your defense by 200 while your attack is lowered by 100.

Also at rank 10, assuming each level increases the duration of War Cry by 3 seconds, it'd almost always be up (3 seconds of down time).

http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebkI4Oj5kIbf
This was my planned build for level 30. The point of this build is to always grab the monster's attention so that your party members can safely hammer them for damage from behind or something.

My question is if anyone else are going for this route and if so, what talent skills would you get?

Randomness
Jun 27, 2012, 09:30 PM
Ragne's disc attack already has a giant period of danger-even the force mirage dash isn't enough to completely avoid all three waves.

Sigmund
Jun 27, 2012, 09:37 PM
That's true, but Ragne's attack is also magical in nature. Eating waves at close range would hurt a lot even if you had Guard Stance up. =(

Randomness
Jun 27, 2012, 09:40 PM
I'm fairly sure the stances affect all three defenses. I know Fury affects ranged and striking power (Hell, it might even be tech power - but...)

moorebounce
Jun 27, 2012, 09:53 PM
With a charged power bar, it unlocks an extra property to your weapon.
Sword: Cuts down charging time of both Nova Strike and Rising Edge from 5 seconds to 1 second.
Wired lance: Powers up the damage of your Photon Arts.
Partisan: Increases the range of your Photon Arts.


This is good to know. I have 2 out of the 3 and the next skill point I get is for the Sword gear. lol this 27 hour wait is really gonna suck.

Sigmund
Jun 27, 2012, 09:59 PM
I'm fairly sure the stances affect all three defenses. I know Fury affects ranged and striking power (Hell, it might even be tech power - but...)

Unfortunately, it doesn't. I checked my character's stats screen before and after activating Guard Stance and it only modifies your strike-defense and strike-attack.

soulpimpwizzurd
Jun 27, 2012, 10:03 PM
sword gear also lets sonic arrow hit three times, slightly increases range of stun concide, and makes the shockwave count go from 1 to 3 when using twister fall. it seems to not effect cruel throw in any way at all though.

Gamemako
Jun 27, 2012, 10:09 PM
I have found Fury Stance to be quite unimpressive without the Critical bonus. The tiny amount of bonus damage is hardly worthwhile, and taking extra damage adds up fast. Bringing it to a boss is a bad, bad, bad idea. Maybe once you max critical it's useful, but I can't say I'm hugely fond of it so far. Definitely most apt to use it in normal areas with a partisan.

KanekoSaya
Jun 27, 2012, 11:11 PM
I can't decide what weapon thing I want to pick. :( They are all cool.

Sigmund
Jun 27, 2012, 11:12 PM
sword gear also lets sonic arrow hit three times, slightly increases range of stun concide, and makes the shockwave count go from 1 to 3 when using twister fall. it seems to not effect cruel throw in any way at all though.

Thanks, added the info to the FAQ. Honestly didn't know that, no wonder Sonic Arrow hits like a truck.


I have found Fury Stance to be quite unimpressive without the Critical bonus. The tiny amount of bonus damage is hardly worthwhile, and taking extra damage adds up fast. Bringing it to a boss is a bad, bad, bad idea. Maybe once you max critical it's useful, but I can't say I'm hugely fond of it so far. Definitely most apt to use it in normal areas with a partisan.

What rank of Fury Stance do you have? I know from stats alone that it's absolutely not worth using at low ranks seeing the ratio of def decrease and atk increase is abysmal.


I can't decide what weapon thing I want to pick. :( They are all cool.

Start by playing with all the weapons and have a feel for them. Afterwards, decide the one you like the most and build around it talent tree wise! If you're in doubt, get Step Attack first - the skill is pretty much staple for everyone as it brings so much more control over battle.

soulpimpwizzurd
Jun 27, 2012, 11:33 PM
the reason i see warcry as useless is because generally i find that the boss already aggros on to me regardless, like, forever. also, even if the boss aggros on you, sometimes boss attacks are very wild and people get hit regardless lol...

and i guess it's suitable since i'm a hunter and i have justguard so i can accommodate the danger accordingly.

it's a neat idea though, your build.

Zorafim
Jun 27, 2012, 11:54 PM
I really don't see the point of a defense build. It was a good idea, but it's difficult to do well in an action RPG format. The only benefit I see from it is to take all the attention to let everyone else focus on pure offense. That might work great in a dedicated team, actually. But for casual play, it's almost always better to kill faster and get better reflexes so that you don't need defense.

That being said, I DO want to mess with it at some point, and see what I can do with it. Maxed warcry, pure defense skills, take on all the enemies on screen. Which, is actually another problem. It's rare for there to be too many enemies on screen, and at that point it's better to just AoE them down. The only time when people need things off them is during boss fights. Maybe some codes.

Sigmund
Jun 28, 2012, 12:12 AM
Those are exactly my fears - sounds good on paper, but probably worthless in situation. I already embarked in this build though, I'll give a more throughout review when levels kicks in. Keep in mind that you can still function as a damage dealer though, just without the JA bonus and Fury Stance (risky to use on boss).

On another topic, what's the consensus on Just Counter? JAs are cool and all, but it's rather underwhelming to spend a talent point on it - especially how condition specific it is.

GImiller
Jun 28, 2012, 01:03 AM
Thanks for the detail on sword gear, I can now say I'm comfortable with my build choice. Out of curiosity, do just attacks(i'm guessing that's when you properly time your attack) affect charging photon arts?

Shujinko
Jun 28, 2012, 01:47 AM
I have a couple of questions and I was hoping if you guys could give me your opinions.

1.The skill Partisan Gear is it worth the 1 point? I have a point into this right now and the range is cool but it feels very situation oriented to when I can have charges like during bosses when I could possibly put myself into a better position or charge up some mp killing mobs.This is still open beta and maybe it could have even more uses so I wanted some opinions.Also I wish it increased damage too but it has to be unique from wired or not be too overpowered.

2.The skill step attack is it worth the 4 points/5points if getting reversal? When I first started I read one of the guides here saying its a really good skill and I thought it worked as one attack which it kinda does but it does not count as one real attack to chain into the second skill which was kind of like a wow reaction from me. The only times I have used this was to just recover mp faster by getting attacks on things or catching fast / interrupt normal mobs.I have not gotten reversal yet but I feel like you should not be getting hit to get knocked down but people do make mistakes so I have no idea if I should get this.

3.Is Fury Critical's scaling really that bad?The idea about having more damage with a random modifier is neat but is it worth the points?.

This is the skill build I think I should have had.
http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEIbInqnGDy7

This is what I have now.
http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebInqnGQhN6

Adelheid
Jun 28, 2012, 01:50 AM
Fury Critical is good, but it isn't worth missing 5 points in Fury stance to get 5 points in Just Attack 2. So max Fury Stance first then go for Fury Critical.

Otherwise Fury Stance is the best increase in DPS you can get out of your skill tree, by far. As long as you're not an idiot and avoid damage.

Lumir
Jun 28, 2012, 01:50 AM
Btw when using sonic arrow/wave with the sword gear...

1 charge (always starts @ 1 charge), 1 hit
2 charge, 2 hits
3 charge, 3 hits

Shujinko
Jun 28, 2012, 01:55 AM
SORRY I MESSED UP ON THE SKILL SIMULATOR LOL gonna fix it now

Zorafim
Jun 28, 2012, 01:56 AM
Partisan gear's worth the point, I think. For one point, you can greatly increase the range of your skills. This makes AoEing groups so much easier. It's less useful on bosses, but it's difficult to charge on bosses anyway. But even on bosses, it's great for accidentally killing random spawns.

Step attack is just one point. I think it's worth it, but it's not a huge upgrade. You can just as easily move forward and attack. As for it not counting as an attack... You can use it to JA into the first combo PA, but it doesn't count as a combo attack. So, you'll start at your first combo attack after you JA, not the second. I took advantage of this and had my first PA be an AoE, and the second be a focus. That way, I can dash attack into a group and AoE them, maybe finish off one mob with the focus attack. And if I only attack one enemy, I can normal attack into a JA'd PA.
So, uh... You need to get it for Just Reversal, and Just Reversal is pretty amazing. Considering that, it's worth it.

I don't have Fury Critical, so I can't comment on it. I was kind of hoping it'd be pretty amazing with a maxed Fure Stance, though. If it's not, I guess I'm speccing into dodge step even further, then.

soulpimpwizzurd
Jun 28, 2012, 02:00 AM
Those are exactly my fears - sounds good on paper, but probably worthless in situation. I already embarked in this build though, I'll give a more throughout review when levels kicks in. Keep in mind that you can still function as a damage dealer though, just without the JA bonus and Fury Stance (risky to use on boss).

On another topic, what's the consensus on Just Counter? JAs are cool and all, but it's rather underwhelming to spend a talent point on it - especially how condition specific it is.

i agree with you here. i'm not sure about now cause i don't wanna spend a point on it, but i think it only lets you do a just regular attack instantly. if you could just counter>just photon art, maybe it'd be worth it, but you can't.

in the closed beta, just guard used to freeze your character the same way guarding does, and it could only be canceled by the just guard counter. however now, just guard does not freeze your character. you can instantly start moving/dashing/attacking afterwards.

so to me, it has lost its merit, even more so as it cannot let you just photon art attack. you can only just basic melee attack.

Shujinko
Jun 28, 2012, 02:12 AM
Thanks for reading and the quick replies

@AdelHeid
Thanks for spotting the mistake xD

@Zorafim
Thanks for your opinions on the skills.I feel more confident in in my skill tree now because for the longest time I felt like getting some of the skills were mistakes.Also the reason why I said 4/5 was because you need the 3 into step advance so sorry about all the mistakes.

NoiseHERO
Jun 28, 2012, 02:24 AM
SWORD GEAR DOES ALL THAT??

No wonder sword is annoying to use in later levels without it.

Anyhow I main wiredlance... and just maxed out the step tree... I only get hit when I'm not trying now. which is 80% of the time because hard mode = GRIND TO ACCESS MORE AREAS.

soulpimpwizzurd
Jun 28, 2012, 02:27 AM
SWORD GEAR DOES ALL THAT??

No wonder sword is annoying to use in later levels without it.

Anyhow I main wiredlance... and just maxed out the step tree... I only get hit when I'm not trying now. which is 80% of the time because hard mode = GRIND TO ACCESS MORE AREAS.

wow you maxed step skill? is it any good? i found just guard to be much better and cost less points. the timing strictness also seems the same if you think about it. the only downside is there are some unblockable attacks, while invincibility is well, invincible.

how generous are your dodge frames? is it pretty much the entirety of the dodge you're invincible?

NoiseHERO
Jun 28, 2012, 02:33 AM
wow you maxed step skill? is it any good? i found just guard to be much better and cost less points.

how generous are your dodge frames? is it pretty much the entirety of the dodge you're invincible?

It says it add's like +20% invulnerability or something I think right?

I'd say it DEFINITELY feels noticeable. But I wouldn't put it over Just guarding and Just attacking yet, or at all, I haven't tried those.

I'm also loving Just Reversal, once you master the timing you don't have to worry about being on your face for 2-3 seconds anymore when you get backhanded by large monsters, and it looks cool.

soulpimpwizzurd
Jun 28, 2012, 02:37 AM
It says it add's like +20% invulnerability or something I think right?

I'd say it DEFINITELY feels noticeable. But I wouldn't put it over Just guarding and Just attacking yet, or at all, I haven't tried those.

I'm also loving Just Reversal, once you master the timing you don't have to worry about being on your face for 2-3 seconds anymore when you get backhanded by large monsters, and it looks cool.

it doesnt add +20%. it adds seconds. maxed step gives .23 seconds of invincibility i believe.

just reversal is nice. it took me a while to learn you can't spam space bar with just reversal. in actuality its very simple. you just wait till your character faceplants and right after your character hits the ground (your char HAS to hit the ground, if you press it before you hit the ground you'll fail the just reversal) you press space. you have a window of like ~.3 seconds.

i think the gunslash switch mode recovery is the most stylish and fastest though.

for a long time i thought you had to press right before you hit the ground, not after.

so in this case its the opposite of super smash bros recovery, shielding before u hit the ground.

I JUST WISH YOU WERE INVINCIBLE DURING THE SPINNY ROLL RECOVERY JUMP :(

btw source on step invince frames : http://pso2.swiki.jp/index.php?%E3%83%8F%E3%83%B3%E3%82%BF%E3%83%BC

ステップアドバンス

ステップ中の無敵時間が延長
画像 Lv 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
効果時間 0.15秒 0.16秒 0.17秒 0.18秒 0.19秒 0.20秒 0.21秒 0.22秒 0.23秒 0.24秒

at lvl ten it says .24 seconds of invincibility.

lvling up just attack imo is not great, it only increases damage of regular melee just attacks, not just photon arts.

on a note about just guarding, i believe the way it should go in terms of blockability is this:

regular guard>just guard>dodge

i think some attacks like rockbear's grab crush and throw attack, are not regularly guardable. however you can just guard it. i have similar feelings for dragon's fireball attack, and flame geysers the dragon summons.

NoiseHERO
Jun 28, 2012, 02:43 AM
it doesnt add +20%. it adds seconds. maxed step gives .23 seconds of invincibility i believe.

just reversal is nice. it took me a while to learn you can't spam space bar with just reversal. in actuality its very simple. you just wait till your character faceplants and right after your character hits the ground (your char HAS to hit the ground, if you press it before you hit the ground you'll fail the just reversal) you press space. you have a window of like ~.3 seconds.

for a long time i thought you had to press right before you hit the ground, not after.

so in this case its the opposite of super smash bros recovery, shielding before u hit the ground.

I JUST WISH YOU WERE INVINCIBLE DURING THE SPINNY ROLL RECOVERY JUMP :(

btw source on step invince frames : http://pso2.swiki.jp/index.php?%E3%83%8F%E3%83%B3%E3%82%BF%E3%83%BC

ステップアドバンス

ステップ中の無敵時間が延長
画像 Lv 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
効果時間 0.15秒 0.16秒 0.17秒 0.18秒 0.19秒 0.20秒 0.21秒 0.22秒 0.23秒 0.24秒

at lvl ten it says .24 seconds of invincibility.

lvling up just attack imo is not great, it only increases damage of regular melee just attacks, not just photon arts.

Oh I see, seconds. I assumed if it was .2X of anything it was itself. That actually does sound as useful as it feels. I've definitely been going ninja gaiden mode on some of the enemies.

And yeah I swear I did a just reversal in mid-air the first time I used it and that just really fucked me up. Then thought it was only "near" the ground, then realized you simply do it the same instant you faceplant.

I like using it on the Cave's gas explosions... on purpose "-SHUT UP YOU DIDN'T SEE THAT *JUMPS BACK UP AND KEEPS WALKING WHILE ON FIRE!*"

soulpimpwizzurd
Jun 28, 2012, 02:46 AM
Oh I see, seconds. I assumed if it was .2X of anything it was itself. That actually does sound as useful as it feels. I've definitely been going ninja gaiden mode on some of the enemies.

And yeah I swear I did a just reversal in mid-air the first time I used it and that just really fucked me up. Then thought it was only "near" the ground, then realized you simply do it the same instant you faceplant.

I like using it on the Cave's gas explosions... on purpose "-SHUT UP YOU DIDN'T SEE THAT *JUMPS BACK UP AND KEEPS WALKING WHILE ON FIRE!*"

yeah when i still didnt know how to do it i walked onto the explosions/traps/blow back attacks bosses use on purpose to figure it out.

DONT U JUST LOVE IT WHEN YOU THINK YOU COULD DO SOMETHING AND THEN YOU KEEP TRYING TO DO THAT SOMETHING BUT THEN YOU REALIZE IN ACTUALITY IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE TO DO THAT SOMETHING SO YOU WASTED YOUR TIME TRYING TO DO THAT SOMETHING THOUGH? LOOOOL

Zorafim
Jun 28, 2012, 02:47 AM
*thud* *flip* "sup"

So Just Attack doesn't work on PAs? Well, so much for me speccing into that. Not that I was planning to in a long while, with me still needing to master Just Crit and Dodge Step. Still, it's probably better than getting defensive skills after I'm done with my offense spec.

soulpimpwizzurd
Jun 28, 2012, 02:52 AM
*thud* *flip* "sup"

So Just Attack doesn't work on PAs? Well, so much for me speccing into that. Not that I was planning to in a long while, with me still needing to master Just Crit and Dodge Step. Still, it's probably better than getting defensive skills after I'm done with my offense spec.

just crit? perhaps you mean fury stance critical?

yeah, if i could i would have rather not gotten all those other skills sword gear requires but i really like it's gear so i had to. i want to max fury critical ASAP. +20% crit chance just too sexy

Adelheid
Jun 28, 2012, 05:29 AM
Also, I think I can make a persuasive argument (although currently not backed up by any experimental data) that gunslash is the best melee weapon for single target DPS.

Based on the following reasoning:
1) Quickest attacks and therefore quickest PP generation (as long as PP generation is based off his and not weapon type or damage it may turn out the sword/partisan PP generation is the same, but I think gunslash is faster).
2) Quickest PA skills meaning you can dump PP quicker than with other weapons. (All skills cost 30, making 120PP a good breakpoint to reach too)
3) Ability to switch quickly to range to damage or build PP when the boss is unhitable by melee (like when Ragne walks on the walls of the dome).

This makes gunslashes the best for a few reasons:
1) Fastest ability to build PP means more PAs than other weapons in the same time frame. PAs are a major source of extra damage.
2) Fastest ability to put out burst damage using PAs in a short time, so temporarily exposed openings can be fully utilised (like ragne's head when it falls). You can dump your entire PP bar into PAs in the time it takes a partisan to do the 5x wind blade attack.
3) Ability to constantly damage the boss means you don't lose as much DPS from the boss running around or kiting you.

The only other weapon I think could rival it against single targets is the sword because of the charge time being cut by sword gear, but it also requires you to waste points getting the gear and time keeping the gear charged at full... Gunslash has none of these complications.

Of course, to make gunslashes viable you have to be good enough at dodging and avoiding damage to be able to use fury stance 24/7 and not have any means of blocking... Also you need to invest in a skill mag since most gunslashes use skill as a requirement.

Of course you could always use gunslash's range mode to grow PP then spam attacks using a sword or partisan but that makes it difficult to make use of the weapon's gear...


Honestly I'm not too much of a fan of the current hunter tree because it seems to bias the player -against- switching weapons.... when I considered switching to appropriate weapons the main and most identifiably unique game mechanic of PSO. Oh well.

Geistritter
Jun 28, 2012, 08:18 AM
Incidentally, that's largely the problem with Hunter - it's too utility and crowd focused, and less so on "THERE IS A MASSIVE MONSTER I CAN'T GRAB OR HIT MORE THAN ONE SPOT OF".

Of course, gunblades do largely address that, particularly with Rage Dance (レイジダンス), which does a lot of damage quickly, and cheaply, and the infamous Thrillsplosion (スリラープロード, which is more like "Thrillsplode", by the way, but whatever) is quick, safe area damage that's great at hitting little guys' weak points. A lot of gunblade PAs are freakin' awful, but the... two good ones are perfectly usable and fill some weaknesses of the class. Depending on what stat Rage Dance primarily goes off of (I assume it's slashing, given the nature of the attack, but making sense isn't always among this game's interests), it's probably actually better on a Hunter than a Ranger.

Saffran
Jun 28, 2012, 08:56 AM
They've changed it though.
Reflecting on it, I guess the build to get all 3 gears is to get the step attack and step guard but NOT just recover and NOT just counter.
unfortunately I got those 2 so now I can't get the wired sword gear anymore. I am left hoping the "true" version will have a few points more in the skill tree.
Just in passing : the max amount of points in that tree is 177 if I counted right. Surely Sega could let us go "all the way" up to 33 points per skill tree with a maximum possible of lv100 for your character...

Question is passing, should I delete my character, may I assume the skill tree would be reset?

Sorry for the double post, what I meant with "they changed it" is the duration of the side step.
I got it to level 3 and it makes up for 0.11 sec of invincibility.

(0.05, 0.09 and then 0.11. I think the next is 0.13)

CelestialBlade
Jun 28, 2012, 09:12 AM
I'm working on an offense/dodge build, wanting an opinion on which direction I want to go now.

I main Partisans, I've got the Gear skill and I have everything in the dodge tree (with the duration skill at 3). So I'm wondering if it would be better damage-wise to max out Fury Stance and dabble in Fury Crit, or go down the S-ATK tree for extra overall damage plus some bonus HP for stuff you just can't avoid? Basically wondering whether it'd be better overall to get the permanent S-ATK bonuses or rely on Fury Stance if it's moreso worth it in the long run. I'd level the dodge duration skill more but it seems like it requires a significant SP investment to be worthwhile, and I'd rather spend points on something I can't make up with better gameplay.

Geistritter
Jun 28, 2012, 09:29 AM
S-Atk is a skill you should get eventually (as in, the official release, when you have more points to spare), but not something you should focus on yet; you'll get more use out of Fury Stance. On the other hand, you're going to get diminishing returns waiting for S-Atk, but I'd still say Fury Stance is superior, although S-Atk will be a universal, permanent gain with no Defense hit. You could go either way, really.

As for Fury Critical, I'd honestly be inclined to say Just Attack Bonus is more useful; you're always going to get that damage boost, whereas you might get more Criticals with Fury Critical, and it'll take a lot of points to make that even remotely reliable. Again, probably something I'd say you should get eventually, but right now there are too many skills that just benefit you more right now.

Sigmund
Jun 28, 2012, 11:40 AM
1.The skill Partisan Gear is it worth the 1 point? I have a point into this right now and the range is cool but it feels very situation oriented to when I can have charges like during bosses when I could possibly put myself into a better position or charge up some mp killing mobs.This is still open beta and maybe it could have even more uses so I wanted some opinions.Also I wish it increased damage too but it has to be unique from wired or not be too overpowered.

2.The skill step attack is it worth the 4 points/5points if getting reversal? When I first started I read one of the guides here saying its a really good skill and I thought it worked as one attack which it kinda does but it does not count as one real attack to chain into the second skill which was kind of like a wow reaction from me. The only times I have used this was to just recover mp faster by getting attacks on things or catching fast / interrupt normal mobs.I have not gotten reversal yet but I feel like you should not be getting hit to get knocked down but people do make mistakes so I have no idea if I should get this.

3.Is Fury Critical's scaling really that bad?The idea about having more damage with a random modifier is neat but is it worth the points?.


1. From what I've observed, partisan is the king at clearing normal mobs (wired lance sends mobs all over the place and it's quite buggy at times). Not having its gear would definitely handicap you in what you do best. Therefore, if I were to main partisan, I'd surely pick it up.

2. I'm in love with Step Attack. I'm not sure how others play, but Step Attack helps enormously connecting one mob to another. Like without this skill, you'd be vulnerable for ~1s after dashing. With it, you can hit stun your target and continue attacking as normal.

3. 20% at level 10 seems pretty good to me. Then again, I still need to know just how much a critical attack adds to your damage.


Btw when using sonic arrow/wave with the sword gear...

1 charge (always starts @ 1 charge), 1 hit
2 charge, 2 hits
3 charge, 3 hits

Thanks, added to the FAQ.


i agree with you here. i'm not sure about now cause i don't wanna spend a point on it, but i think it only lets you do a just regular attack instantly. if you could just counter>just photon art, maybe it'd be worth it, but you can't.

in the closed beta, just guard used to freeze your character the same way guarding does, and it could only be canceled by the just guard counter. however now, just guard does not freeze your character. you can instantly start moving/dashing/attacking afterwards.

so to me, it has lost its merit, even more so as it cannot let you just photon art attack. you can only just basic melee attack.

Good to know, I'll leave it out until someone finds some benefits to it then. P:


just crit? perhaps you mean fury stance critical?

yeah, if i could i would have rather not gotten all those other skills sword gear requires but i really like it's gear so i had to. i want to max fury critical ASAP. +20% crit chance just too sexy

How much does a critical hit improve your damage anyway? 100%? 200%? Or perhaps it's affected by stats?


Also, I think I can make a persuasive argument (although currently not backed up by any experimental data) that gunslash is the best melee weapon for single target DPS.

Based on the following reasoning:
1) Quickest attacks and therefore quickest PP generation (as long as PP generation is based off his and not weapon type or damage it may turn out the sword/partisan PP generation is the same, but I think gunslash is faster).
2) Quickest PA skills meaning you can dump PP quicker than with other weapons. (All skills cost 30, making 120PP a good breakpoint to reach too)
3) Ability to switch quickly to range to damage or build PP when the boss is unhitable by melee (like when Ragne walks on the walls of the dome).

This makes gunslashes the best for a few reasons:
1) Fastest ability to build PP means more PAs than other weapons in the same time frame. PAs are a major source of extra damage.
2) Fastest ability to put out burst damage using PAs in a short time, so temporarily exposed openings can be fully utilised (like ragne's head when it falls). You can dump your entire PP bar into PAs in the time it takes a partisan to do the 5x wind blade attack.
3) Ability to constantly damage the boss means you don't lose as much DPS from the boss running around or kiting you.

The only other weapon I think could rival it against single targets is the sword because of the charge time being cut by sword gear, but it also requires you to waste points getting the gear and time keeping the gear charged at full... Gunslash has none of these complications.

Of course, to make gunslashes viable you have to be good enough at dodging and avoiding damage to be able to use fury stance 24/7 and not have any means of blocking... Also you need to invest in a skill mag since most gunslashes use skill as a requirement.

Of course you could always use gunslash's range mode to grow PP then spam attacks using a sword or partisan but that makes it difficult to make use of the weapon's gear...

Honestly I'm not too much of a fan of the current hunter tree because it seems to bias the player -against- switching weapons.... when I considered switching to appropriate weapons the main and most identifiably unique game mechanic of PSO. Oh well.

Some problems I have with Gunslash, but your theory may very well be true.

1) As a Hunter, your R-Atk is low already. Combined with the overall lower stats of Gunslash weapons because of their hybrid nature, you do pitiable damage in gun mode.

2) The range of its melee attack is so very small, you'd be exposing yourself to too much hazard unless someone else is taking the aggro from you.

3) In the context where you can constantly hit a target without having to manoeuvre away to dodge, it does seem Gunslash has the most potential for DPS because of its speed and PP regeneration. However, in a boss fight where you have take breaks in between attacks (whether the boss is jumping around or preparing an AoE), passive PP regen gets into play and makes PP regeneration from attacking less of a factor. When Ragne is walking around the walls, it's more beneficial to start clearing the minions he summoned rather than chase him around in gun mode.

4) Depleting your PP bar from 100% to 0%, all the other weapons most likely have the advantage in terms of damage. I guess it all comes down to the amount of time a vulnerable spot is exposed. The smaller it is, the more beneficial it is for Gunslash.

5) In sum, I'd say it all comes down to the stats a Gunslash weapon has. I feel that most people are reluctant in playing them because of the low damage they seem to give out. I also feel the weapon is better suited for Rangers, as the gun mode is definitely better for its play style.


Depending on what stat Rage Dance primarily goes off of (I assume it's slashing, given the nature of the attack, but making sense isn't always among this game's interests), it's probably actually better on a Hunter than a Ranger.

I'm assuming Gunslash PAs are hybridized. For example, the first half of Rage Dance is melee while it's last attack is ranged.

Kazzi
Jun 28, 2012, 12:18 PM
Question is passing, should I delete my character, may I assume the skill tree would be reset?

It reset when I deleted my character, so I'd assume so.

I'm wondering about Fury Critical as well, since I love doing huge crit damage. But I'm not sure what the rates are for the actual crit damage? 20% chance is nice, but is it worth if if crits don't do that much?

Adelheid
Jun 28, 2012, 12:41 PM
Some problems I have with Gunslash, but your theory may very well be true.

1) As a Hunter, your R-Atk is low already. Combined with the overall lower stats of Gunslash weapons because of their hybrid nature, you do pitiable damage in gun mode.

2) The range of its melee attack is so very small, you'd be exposing yourself to too much hazard unless someone else is taking the aggro from you.

3) In the context where you can constantly hit a target without having to manoeuvre away to dodge, it does seem Gunslash has the most potential for DPS because of its speed and PP regeneration. However, in a boss fight where you have take breaks in between attacks (whether the boss is jumping around or preparing an AoE), passive PP regen gets into play and makes PP regeneration from attacking less of a factor. When Ragne is walking around the walls, it's more beneficial to start clearing the minions he summoned rather than chase him around in gun mode.

4) Depleting your PP bar from 100% to 0%, all the other weapons most likely have the advantage in terms of damage. I guess it all comes down to the amount of time a vulnerable spot is exposed. The smaller it is, the more beneficial it is for Gunslash.

5) In sum, I'd say it all comes down to the stats a Gunslash weapon has. I feel that most people are reluctant in playing them because of the low damage they seem to give out. I also feel the weapon is better suited for Rangers, as the gun mode is definitely better for its play style.



I'm assuming Gunslash PAs are hybridized. For example, the first half of Rage Dance is melee while it's last attack is ranged.


1) Fury Stance largely offsets DPS loss from having lower R-ATK than Rangers since it gives the exact same bonus to range as it does to melee. So, for instance you may end up at 700/600 S-ATK/R-ATK instead of 500/400 which is a larger % drop in switching modes. But still, like I said, ANY damage is better than no damage when the enemy is out of range.

2) This is overcome via skill and pattern recognition of the enemies. I never said it was an easy weapon to use effectively, just that it has the potential to be the best :-). If you ever need to block I doubt you can switch to a blocking weapon fast enough and block... so you need to be able to dodge everything!

3) I disagree, I've never had trouble with the minions personally and am the type of person to be max-DPS minded so I always stick on Ragne with my gun, it's quite easy to keep DPS up on him while he is on the walls.

4) Gunslash probably has lower damage per PP but PP generation and PP dumping ability (which really matters on bosses temporary weakspots, especially when those temporary weak spots are double-weakspotted) I think way outweighs the lower damage to PP per PA ratio.


5) Honestly I don't think gunslashes have all that bad stats when you account for their attack speed and PP gen/PA output speeds. I think with generic melee attacks their damage stats are balanced around their DPS (ie. doing only melee swings partisan/sword/gunslash probably all do about the same DPS at the same level of equipment) but the gun comes out on top in PP generation and PA output speed.

I don't know if the Gunslash PAs are hybridized, I'll do some tests later but from my memory I'd say they're not hybridised (ie. they're melee except for the charge shot which is ranged).

As for critical multiplier: It's not your standard 2 time damage. It seems to be about 1.5 from my memory but it MIGHT depend on your ability and it might depend on your ability vs the target's ability. This means that 20% extra crit isn't 20% extra DPS, it's about a 10% DPS increase at about 1.5 times.

Lumir
Jun 28, 2012, 12:57 PM
About the gunslash. I have played with the 8 star one that looks like something from FFVIII and from my experience (played quite a few missions with it) its is best used on a ranger. Its ranged attack is fast so PP regens fast.

Rage Dance = Striking damage
Thrillsplosion = Shooting damage

Rage Dance simply loses out to swords in damage (not to mention the gear is even more dmg), the wired lance has its control PA's (fast knockdown with aoe), and the partisan has the PA damage boosting gear. The gunslash attacks faster then the sword (slow combo), and wired lance (medium speed combo), and its nearly the same attack speed as the partisan.

Thrillsplosion is the best single target (aka boss) damage for a ranger. The only down side is you have to get close enough for it to hit.

Also I bet gunslashes lose out in later levels damage wise to launchers for rangers. But will just have to see what stats they both receive. I really wish there was a gear in the HU skill tree to make them more viable for HUs. It could really get people using them.

Kazzi
Jun 28, 2012, 12:59 PM
As for critical multiplier: It's not your standard 2 time damage. It seems to be about 1.5 from my memory but it MIGHT depend on your ability and it might depend on your ability vs the target's ability. This means that 20% extra crit isn't 20% extra DPS, it's about a 10% DPS increase at about 1.5 times.

I had a feeling it wasn't quite double damage, thank you for clarifying!

Adelheid
Jun 28, 2012, 01:04 PM
Problem with the sword gear is speccing issues and partisans PAs take a long time to output, and the partisan gear lowers your DPS time if you focus on keeping it up.

Not sure which one thrillsplosion is, what attack animation is it? Rage dance is the stabby one?



Edit: I'll run a bunch of experiments on ability and gunslash hybridisation on the PAs when the servers come back up.


Edit2: Also, if ability turns out to increase crit or crit multiplier then gunslashes get even better since you'll be able to spec your ability power high with your mag so that you can equip good gunslashes and combine it with fury critical for insane damage. If you go sword/partisan you basically need a S-ATK mag so you can meet item requirements earlier. That being said, it also means if ability turns out to be completely junk.... Gunslashes won't be terribly hot.


Does anyone have a table of race/class/gender stat differences?

Lumir
Jun 28, 2012, 01:23 PM
Problem with the sword gear is speccing issues and partisans PAs take a long time to output, and the partisan gear lowers your DPS time if you focus on keeping it up.

Not sure which one thrillsplosion is, what attack animation is it? Rage dance is the stabby one?



Edit: I'll run a bunch of experiments on ability and gunslash hybridisation on the PAs when the servers come back up.

Sword gear shouldnt give any speccing issues. Gives you a guard stance, more damage, and then the sword gear. All worth it because the guard stance can be used in hard mode boss fights when you are running low on healing items or just have bad defense, the damage boost is always nice, and the sword gear speaks for itself.

True about the partisans, I find myself not using them at all. Didnt get the partisan gear as I dont use it much.

Oh and the skills im talking about might be different... Yea checked the wiki the skills I was talking about are the ones I found to do the most damage in their perspective areas.

Air Serpent = Multiple hits (I think 5 fast ones, aoe as well) that makes you spin jump in air. Did more damage then rage dance. Striking damage.

Thrill Splosion = Dodge in reverse and create an explosion (aoe multiple hits). Shooting Damage.

EDIT:

From what I have read and experimented with ability adds crit chance and decreases the amount between your min and max damage (ex. without ability min-100 max-200, with ability min-150 max-200).

Sigmund
Jun 28, 2012, 01:49 PM
Does anyone have a table of race/class/gender stat differences?

Accurate numbers have yet to surface, but here is the top race/gender for each stat taken from the JP wiki.

Max HP: Male Cast Hunter
Max PP: Common to everyone
S-Atk: Male Cast Hunter
R-Atk: Female Cast Ranger
T-Atk: Female Newman Force
Ability: Male and Female Cast
S-Def: Male Cast and Human Hunter
R-Def: Male and Female Cast Ranger
T-Def: Female Newman and Human Force

[edit]: Nevermind, here are some numbers according to a certain deep part of the internet. Not sure which gender it is, likely female? Take it with a grain of salt.
[SPOILER-BOX]http://i.imgur.com/6Gcpy.jpg[/SPOILER-BOX]



EDIT:

From what I have read and experimented with ability adds crit chance and decreases the amount between your min and max damage (ex. without ability min-100 max-200, with ability min-150 max-200).

Also read that your crit chance and "balance" depends on the enemy's ability as well. Such as if your ability is lower than the monster's ability, your critical rate would be lower.

*Updated the FAQ*

Gamemako
Jun 28, 2012, 02:48 PM
What rank of Fury Stance do you have? I know from stats alone that it's absolutely not worth using at low ranks seeing the ratio of def decrease and atk increase is abysmal.

It's always abysmal. At level 5, you get +100 s-atk/r-atk and -250 defense (not sure if it's just s-def or if it's all defenses). At level 10, it's +150/-200. The numbers may look closer, but 50 atk and 50 def are not huge difference-makers. Unfortunately, it also seems that +100 makes very little difference as well.

I'm sticking with level 5 so I can max fury crit. If it works, it might be very useful. However, without it, fury stance is embarrassingly bad. I'm running an ability mag, so I'll let you know how it turns out.


1.The skill Partisan Gear is it worth the 1 point? I have a point into this right now and the range is cool but it feels very situation oriented to when I can have charges like during bosses when I could possibly put myself into a better position or charge up some mp killing mobs.This is still open beta and maybe it could have even more uses so I wanted some opinions.Also I wish it increased damage too but it has to be unique from wired or not be too overpowered.

Partisan gear is excellent for slaughtering mobs. There are a lot of opportunities to charge as long as you carefully select your PAs. Drop the partisan as soon as you come near a boss, though, as post-attack charging is disabled against them and you're forced to charge by blocking (which is a bad idea).

CelestialBlade
Jun 28, 2012, 02:48 PM
Thanks Geistritter for your input. I think I've settled on this build tentatively, Partisan-focused offense/dodge build:

http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebIoqnqDuN6

Still not sure about Fury Crit, kinda depends on what research is found on Crit effectiveness.

Zorafim
Jun 28, 2012, 03:10 PM
Hey, that's my build too! I guess it's going to be popular soon.

buri-chan
Jun 28, 2012, 03:13 PM
So here's what I'm thinking.

The first ten levels (http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebkbIo0) I spent getting the right-side of the tree. Increasing Step's invincible duration is helpful for dodging, even if it's only 1/100 a second each rank. Step Attack increases both mobility and overall damage output, and is next to vital for the Caterdran. Just Reversal is great because it gives a chance to get back up immediately and heal. Just Guard and Just Counter are good for cancelling and playing the game like a fighter.

Up to 25 (http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebkbqBqDIb6) I've been going down the left side of the tree to get Partisan and Wired Lance Gears. I'll be using Wired Lance as my map weapon since it's so godly at crowd control, and Partisan on bosses for controlled movement. In all while I might be lacking in defense, this is offset by great mobility and great damage. Though being a HUnewearl, I'll be fragile as hell. I have to decide whether to use the other 5 OB points to make Fury Critical available (http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebkbqBqDbo6), or max Fury Stance (http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebkbqBGQIb6). But by level 40, either way, should look like this. (http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebkbqBGS5b6)

I'll have to decide whether maxing both JA Boost or one S-ATK Up is more useful eventually. Of course percentage-based modifiers are more useful in the long run, but an extra 50 base S-ATK couldn't hurt either. Not going for tank, so Guard Stance and War Cry aren't particularly useful to me. I'd only go down the middle portion for S-ATK Up 1 and 2 if I decide to use them.

When the game gets back up, I've got to go farm for Vol, Gwana and Rock Bear Souls for equipment. I've decided that I hate Dodo with a passion, so I'm fine with only having a soul on each piece of equipment.

Zorafim
Jun 28, 2012, 03:31 PM
If a crit hit is 1.5x damage, and Fury Crit gives a .2 bonus to crit chance, that's an overall 30% damage boost, gaining roughly 3% more damage per level.

I don't know if the +10 atp and +5 dfp you get per level of fury stance is worth more than 3% damage per level for fury crit, though. Considering the investment you'll need to get fury crit, I'd say it's probably better to cap Fury Stance ASAP before moving on. Especially at lower levels, where higher atp is more noticeable.

Cypher_9
Jun 28, 2012, 03:41 PM
Well since now I get to see a benefit of what sword gear does... makes me wish I had it but, I have gone with this build:

http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebIoqnqDrB6

I have to say it is pretty fun, especially when I Just Reversal and obviously this is the DPS aspect of the hunter but, like one of my teammates said... most would often deny being a defensive build and brought up the point of facing endgame bosses where defense would be useful.

Even with the fact to access higher tier units at early levels (with a defense dedicated mag of course), it just brings an interest to me to see an actual defense hunter - and comparing it to another game and their character with a high defense (Fiona on Vindictus) can pretty much survive a fight that would be HP taxing to other classes; especially the "Fury" hunter in their stance.

Of course, I dodge as much as I can with the need comes but, mistakes can happen.. LOL

Also I liked the idea that RockEastwood gone with in his build that deals with dodging... which brings another unique step of being a hunter

D-Inferno
Jun 28, 2012, 04:15 PM
http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEIbInqnqDIb4QIbf

Current build.

I'm basically hyper-offense. Should I go get Just Reversal, or max out Fury?

Sigmund
Jun 28, 2012, 04:17 PM
My opinion about your build:


The first ten levels (http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebkbIo0) I spent getting the right-side of the tree. Increasing Step's invincible duration is helpful for dodging, even if it's only 1/100 a second each rank. Step Attack increases both mobility and overall damage output, and is next to vital for the Caterdran. Just Reversal is great because it gives a chance to get back up immediately and heal. Just Guard and Just Counter are good for cancelling and playing the game like a fighter.
I wouldn't invest in Just Counter yet, its usefulness has yet to be reviewed. The rest is fine though.


Up to 25 (http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebkbqBqDIb6) I've been going down the left side of the tree to get Partisan and Wired Lance Gears. I'll be using Wired Lance as my map weapon since it's so godly at crowd control, and Partisan on bosses for controlled movement. In all while I might be lacking in defense, this is offset by great mobility and great damage. Though being a HUnewearl, I'll be fragile as hell. I have to decide whether to use the other 5 OB points to make Fury Critical available (http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebkbqBqDbo6), or max Fury Stance (http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebkbqBGQIb6). But by level 40, either way, should look like this. (http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebkbqBGS5b6)
You say that you're going to use Wired Lance for map control and Partisan for boss fights, but then wouldn't that make the Just Guard tree obsolete? You won't use guard too often in map areas.


I'll have to decide whether maxing both JA Boost or one S-ATK Up is more useful eventually. Of course percentage-based modifiers are more useful in the long run, but an extra 50 base S-ATK couldn't hurt either. Not going for tank, so Guard Stance and War Cry aren't particularly useful to me. I'd only go down the middle portion for S-ATK Up 1 and 2 if I decide to use them.

From experience, Wired Lance's normal attacks are weak compared to the Sword or the Partisan. However, this is offset by their high PAs damage. In which case, I'd rank up S-ATK Up since JA Bonus doesn't affect PAs.


Well since now I get to see a benefit of what sword gear does... makes me wish I had it but, I have gone with this build:

http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebIoqnqDrB6

I have to say it is pretty fun, especially when I Just Reversal and obviously this is the DPS aspect of the hunter but, like one of my teammates said... most would often deny being a defensive build and brought up the point of facing endgame bosses where defense would be useful.

Even with the fact to access higher tier units at early levels (with a defense dedicated mag of course), it just brings an interest to me to see an actual defense hunter - and comparing it to another game and their character with a high defense (Fiona on Vindictus) can pretty much survive a fight that would be HP taxing to other classes; especially the "Fury" hunter in their stance.

Of course, I dodge as much as I can with the need comes but, mistakes can happen.. LOL

Also I liked the idea that RockEastwood gone with in his build that deals with dodging... which brings another unique step of being a hunter
I also happen to come from Vindictus, where the game really centers around having monster def and tanking through attacks while dealing an insane amounts at the same time. However, it's not justifiable to compare both games - as there are 3 types of defense in PSO2 and that there is no skill granting you super armor.

Ranking dodge might be good, still have to see what the real numbers are though. However, latency comes into play when you have to time the dodge and our connection to Japan isn't the best.


http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEIbInqnqDIb4QIbf

Current build.

I'm basically hyper-offense. Should I go get Just Reversal, or max out Fury?

If you really insist on getting all gears:
I'd go for Step Attack. Just Reversal only if you find yourself getting knocked down a lot and getting hit in the process, then spend the rest in Fury Stance.

Randomness
Jun 28, 2012, 04:22 PM
Hey, that's my build too! I guess it's going to be popular soon.

Haha, my build is almost identical - I just take Wired Gear as well because I like the weapon (and one point of Fury Critical is a small price to pay).

buri-chan
Jun 28, 2012, 04:49 PM
I've just been playing Portable for too long. I can't live without guarding.

Cypher_9
Jun 28, 2012, 04:59 PM
I also happen to come from Vindictus, where the game really centers around having monster def and tanking through attacks while dealing an insane amounts at the same time. However, it's not justifiable to compare both games - as there are 3 types of defense in PSO2 and that there is no skill granting you super armor

Well even so, it would be a interesting thing to see... to me since I really hadn't dabbled into the tree much during my time in closed; wish I'd had though just so I can know for myself.

IAmSecretSpy
Jun 28, 2012, 05:03 PM
Im undecided what i want to do, Currently im Level 19 and dont know what to do next.
Here is my Skill Tree: http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEIOIntAqqIbIbj

I was thinking of investing into Fury and Fury Critical then S-Attack.

Any Advice is great :)

Randomness
Jun 28, 2012, 05:07 PM
Im undecided what i want to do, Currently im Level 19 and dont know what to do next.
Here is my Skill Tree: http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEIOIntAqqIbIbj

I was thinking of investing into Fury and Fury Critical then S-Attack.

Any Advice is great :)

You may want to go ahead and take step attack, and possibly partisan gear (just because it's a single point cost). Step attack is nice for comboing, it also resets you down to the first attack after you use it and lets you JA into your first PA off a dash (like, say, to close in - I do this a fair bit with the vertical toss WL PA to make up for the abysmal range)

Gamemako
Jun 28, 2012, 05:10 PM
You say that you're going to use Wired Lance for map control and Partisan for boss fights, but then wouldn't that make the Just Guard tree obsolete? You won't use guard too often in map areas.

Hell, I find utility in the exact opposite. Partisans clear out mobs like nobody's business, while wirelances are the long-range multi-hit weapon for bosses, especially since Partisan gear is pretty much 100% useless for bosses (have to stop PP regen in order to charge gear).



I also happen to come from Vindictus, where the game really centers around having monster def and tanking through attacks while dealing an insane amounts at the same time. However, it's not justifiable to compare both games - as there are 3 types of defense in PSO2 and that there is no skill granting you super armor.

Vindictus is not particularly comparable to PSO2. Vindictus is built around grinding grinding grinding for equipment, and the combat is about dodging/blocking and countering. Around the time I stopped playing, everyone had given up on the Lannmower because he couldn't dodge.


If you really insist on getting all gears:
I'd go for Step Attack. Just Reversal only if you find yourself getting knocked down a lot and getting hit in the process, then spend the rest in Fury Stance.

I'll have to get numbers on how well Fury Stance works.

IAmSecretSpy
Jun 28, 2012, 05:12 PM
Im more of a Lance guy though, tried the Partisan and the Swords but both seem to slow for me + I do more damage then both of them with my current upgraded gear. Currently im beating my friend in damage and he is a level 30 Hunter haha I just like to invest in really good gear.

soulpimpwizzurd
Jun 28, 2012, 05:42 PM
to all of you putting points in more than one gear keep in mind:

the benefits of a skill from rank higher ranks of a skill like ~6/7-10 can sometimes be huge. that one skill point you used on a gear, could have maxed out another skill, such as fury stance critical or fury stance.

ex: fury stance gains a bonus of 10 attack and range damage which is its normal leveling pattern at 10, however it decreases the def penalty from 210 to 200, instead of 205 which is what it should be.

as for fury critical, it starts increasing in increments of 3% from levels 8-10. when fury critical is maxed your crit rate goes up by 20%.

most of the time you can really play the game with one weapon (although wired lance's photon arts feel really quirky and odd to use against bosses. you can get used to it but i dislike the delay there is in most of the very damaging attacks such as heavenly fall and that one kicking attack. you can definitely get good at using them but i dislike how you have to force yourself to be at one of two highly specific ranges or suffer a complete whiff of your photon art.) the only time i switch weapons is when i want to move faster since i'm a sword user and i have a lot of distance to cover.

ultimately its your choice, this is all just a big advice thread. but think twice before getting those gears "just because they're one point." is it really worth it if instead, you could say, get 3% more critical, or in some cases 6% because you may want the other two instead of just one?

source:

http://pso2.swiki.jp/index.php?%E3%83%8F%E3%83%B3%E3%82%BF%E3%83%BC

i am also in agreement with adelheid. it seems to me that whenever i do get crits (almost never) i do roughly 50% more damage.

although I must say, i may buy another skill tree so i can go max out both defense stances. the 100 attack penalty for +200 def isn't really that bad. considering you can start leveling guard stance up 2 (which apparently enhances guard stance, no stats posted on the wiki on its growth pattern yet unfortunately) you could stack some massive defense, for the price of 100 attack. it's an interesting idea and it comes with sword gear which is the only gear i need anyway.

but my main tree is definitely going to be maxing fury critical asap.

buri-chan
Jun 28, 2012, 05:46 PM
I, myself, prefer utility over hard numbers. So I'm fine that Partisan Gear is right on the way to Wired Lance Gear.

soulpimpwizzurd
Jun 28, 2012, 06:02 PM
I, myself, prefer utility over hard numbers. So I'm fine that Partisan Gear is right on the way to Wired Lance Gear.

that's what i say as well, which is why i got just counter and step attack. pretty much all weapons once all photon arts are unlocked can handle all situations provided the player knows what to do and has those techniques. that's the big point i'm trying to make.

i actually think partisan and wired lance both play fine without their respective gears. in fact, i'd go the extra length and say they both outshine sword when it has no gear.

however sonic arrow lets a sword user build and maintain its gear so easily so it's very powerful.

but yeah i feel like it's definitely making players be bias towards one weapon. i feel like if you just choose one weapon and get really good with it you'll always outshine others that have chosen multiple weapons.

i can totally see how only using one weapon could be boring or unappealing to others though, even if you could do a significant amount of extra damage.

Abu Jumal
Jun 28, 2012, 06:35 PM
http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebkbqBGS5b6

This is the build i'm working towards. I mixed Sword and Partisan simply because I find those two to be my favorite weapons. I maxed fury Stance for the low level boost but neglected Fury Critical. Can't say it's the most DPS heavy build but I really like having the extended range for my spear when AoEing and the powerful charged PAs on my sword for single targets.

IAmSecretSpy
Jun 28, 2012, 06:50 PM
Step Advance is useless no? Even maxed to 10 its only 0.24 Seconds of invunerability...
i think im better off investing in better DPS, is Just Guard any good with Lance Gear?

Lostbob117
Jun 28, 2012, 06:56 PM
For any help you can check out the wiki in my sig.

Sigmund
Jun 28, 2012, 07:22 PM
Well even so, it would be a interesting thing to see... to me since I really hadn't dabbled into the tree much during my time in closed; wish I'd had though just so I can know for myself.
It'd definitely be interesting. I actually dabbled into the Sword Gear defense oriented side, going to see how it goes at later levels.


Im undecided what i want to do, Currently im Level 19 and dont know what to do next.
Here is my Skill Tree: http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEIOIntAqqIbIbj

I was thinking of investing into Fury and Fury Critical then S-Attack.

Any Advice is great :)
Not sure why you have 6 in HP Up 1, but that's one point you could have saved. Finish off Step Attack since you already have 3 points in Step Advance and possibly Just Reversal depending on your preference. After that, you could rank up Fury Stance - it seems to be the safest to invest on right now to me. I see Wired Lance as the weapon that benefits the most from this skill since their attack range is relatively safe. I'd hold off on Fury Critical until more experimentation have been done on critical hits mechanics.



although I must say, i may buy another skill tree so i can go max out both defense stances. the 100 attack penalty for +200 def isn't really that bad. considering you can start leveling guard stance up 2 (which apparently enhances guard stance, no stats posted on the wiki on its growth pattern yet unfortunately) you could stack some massive defense, for the price of 100 attack. it's an interesting idea and it comes with sword gear which is the only gear i need anyway.

but my main tree is definitely going to be maxing fury critical asap.
I checked yesterday and Guard Stance Up had the same growth pattern as S-Def Up (+50 at rank 10), which I found odd seeing how one doesn't come with the negative tradeoffs. They were most likely CBT data though, which explains why they were removed.


Step Advance is useless no? Even maxed to 10 its only 0.24 Seconds of invunerability...
i think im better off investing in better DPS, is Just Guard any good with Lance Gear?
The JP wiki isn't completely accurate, don't make a definitive judgement based on what you see yet. 0.24s may seem pretty low, but it's useable seeing how in fighting games they have to work with even lower active times.

Just Guard works fine with Wired Lance, though I fail to see the relationship it has with its Gear. I'm not sure I understand what you're asking there.


http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebkbqBGS5b6

This is the build i'm working towards. I mixed Sword and Partisan simply because I find those two to be my favorite weapons. I maxed fury Stance for the low level boost but neglected Fury Critical. Can't say it's the most DPS heavy build but I really like having the extended range for my spear when AoEing and the powerful charged PAs on my sword for single targets.
Are you sure that's the correct URL? I don't see Sword gear ranked and I assumed you'd since they are your favorite weapons.

sliferx94
Jun 28, 2012, 07:32 PM
I need help with a sword tank build.

http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebkb4Oj4QqBI2

http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebkbqBgDf4QIOf

Those are the 2 bad builds i planned :-(

Q: Do i need to touch HP Up 2/3 skills?

Q: Do i need to max guard stances?

IF anyone knows a good sword tank build please do tell ^^

Lostbob117
Jun 28, 2012, 07:50 PM
I need help with a sword tank build.

http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebkb4Oj4QqBI2

http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebkbqBgDf4QIOf

Those are the 2 bad builds i planned :-(

Q: Do i need to touch HP Up 2/3 skills?

Q: Do i need to max guard stances?

IF anyone knows a good sword tank build please do tell ^^

Question: Do you crit or no?

Sigmund
Jun 28, 2012, 08:03 PM
I need help with a sword tank build.

http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebkb4Oj4QqBI2

http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebkbqBgDf4QIOf

Those are the 2 bad builds i planned :-(

Q: Do i need to touch HP Up 2/3 skills?

Q: Do i need to max guard stances?

IF anyone knows a good sword tank build please do tell ^^
It's difficult to give you an accurate build right now since we know so little about the game. We can try to minimize the error though and shred some lights behind our thought process for ranking certain skills instead of another. In the end, use your own judgement about what you want your talent tree to be.

Build #1: I'm guessing this is your defense-oriented build? As a tank, you want to focus on utility and pay less attention to your offense. Drop S-ATK Up 2 or at least max out S-ATK Up 1 first since they have the same growth, later ranks of a talent are worth more because the increase in stats is bigger. You also only put 1 point in Guard Stance Up, the skill is not desirable at all until you have maxed out Guard Stance first. You might also want the skill War Cry, which is like a provoke to keep the monster's attention on you to help your team mates. However, this talent still has to be tested more in order to really acknowledge its usefulness. Here is an example of what I'd do right now for a defensive sword build: http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebkb4OjkKIbf
This leaves you with 1 spare point to play around.

Build #2: Your second build is a bit messy, I'm assuming you want to be an offensive Sword user. If so, this is a much safer build to have until some talents have been reviewed more: http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebkbqoqqf4QIbf
Again, it leaves your with one talent point to be on the safe side.

About HP Up talents: This is really interesting and I want to develop on it some more. Potions in PSO2 heal you by a percentage, meaning that the higher your max HP, the more healing you receive from drinking a potion. Stacking HP might end up being more useful for tanking than stacking defense, seeing as how there is 3 types of defense to cover in this game. Anyone else feel the same?

About Guard Stance: No, you don't need to max that skill. From a defensive point of view however, this is the talent that'll increase your defense the most (albeit sacrificing your attack a bit).

Lostbob117
Jun 28, 2012, 08:09 PM
I need help with a sword tank build.

http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebkb4Oj4QqBI2

http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebkbqBgDf4QIOf

Those are the 2 bad builds i planned :-(

Q: Do i need to touch HP Up 2/3 skills?

Q: Do i need to max guard stances?

IF anyone knows a good sword tank build please do tell ^^

Here is a tank build I thought of if you Crit attack, http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebxbqnI2fkdIbf

Hp Up1: You need plenty of HP for tanks in any game.
Guard Stance: Just to get to other skills.
War Cry: To attract the enemies to you.
S-Atk Up1: It'll boost your S-Atk to kill things faster.
JA Bonus1: To boost your crits so you do more damage.
S-Def Up: Boost your Def so you don't die easier.
The steps: I think these are needed in all builds just for the heck of it.

Here is one if you just smash things with NO crits, http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebxbqnjuqIbf

Hp Up1: You need plenty of HP for tanks in any game.
Guard Stance: Just to get to other skills.
War Cry: To attract the enemies to you.
S-Atk Up1: It'll boost your S-Atk to kill things faster.
S-Def Up: Boost your Def so you don't die easier.
The steps: I think these are needed in all builds just for the heck of it.

soulpimpwizzurd
Jun 28, 2012, 08:31 PM
About HP Up talents: This is really interesting and I want to develop on it some more. Potions in PSO2 heal you by a percentage, meaning that the higher your max HP, the more healing you receive from drinking a potion. Stacking HP might end up being more useful for tanking than stacking defense, seeing as how there is 3 types of defense to cover in this game. Anyone else feel the same?

i see your point but atm i don't agree. your point may be more valid later on if bosses use more tech/range attacks like ragne's red discs, however atm most of the time, hunters that go in close range gain a ton of aggro, and the boss tries to melee them.

so for now, stacking physical defense is a better idea, simply because for now, that's what most hunters are getting hit by. definitely something to consider later on.

however like i said, i still see hp+ as worthless if you get just guard/learn boss patterns.

sliferx94
Jun 28, 2012, 09:06 PM
Question: Do you crit or no?

Best answer to this would be that i dont really know but i probably dont o-o


It's difficult to give you an accurate build right now since we know so little about the game. We can try to minimize the error though and shred some lights behind our thought process for ranking certain skills instead of another. In the end, use your own judgement about what you want your talent tree to be.

Build #1: I'm guessing this is your defense-oriented build? As a tank, you want to focus on utility and pay less attention to your offense. Drop S-ATK Up 2 or at least max out S-ATK Up 1 first since they have the same growth, later ranks of a talent are worth more because the increase in stats is bigger. You also only put 1 point in Guard Stance Up, the skill is not desirable at all until you have maxed out Guard Stance first. You might also want the skill War Cry, which is like a provoke to keep the monster's attention on you to help your team mates. However, this talent still has to be tested more in order to really acknowledge its usefulness. Here is an example of what I'd do right now for a defensive sword build: http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebkb4OjkKIbf
This leaves you with 1 spare point to play around.

Build #2: Your second build is a bit messy, I'm assuming you want to be an offensive Sword user. If so, this is a much safer build to have until some talents have been reviewed more: http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebkbqoqqf4QIbf
Again, it leaves your with one talent point to be on the safe side.

About HP Up talents: This is really interesting and I want to develop on it some more. Potions in PSO2 heal you by a percentage, meaning that the higher your max HP, the more healing you receive from drinking a potion. Stacking HP might end up being more useful for tanking than stacking defense, seeing as how there is 3 types of defense to cover in this game. Anyone else feel the same?

About Guard Stance: No, you don't need to max that skill. From a defensive point of view however, this is the talent that'll increase your defense the most (albeit sacrificing your attack a bit).

I think i will go with the one you suggested first and yeah my second build is messy because i wanted to be defensive while maintaining good offense, but i guess that's not really viable.

Another thing is i dont see many people touching HP Up2/Guard Stance Up/S-ATK Up 2/Automate halfline/HP Up3.When you can easily build something to reach HP Up3 but is it a viable defensive build or not i have no idea.


Here is a tank build I thought of if you Crit attack, http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebxbqnI2fkdIbf

Hp Up1: You need plenty of HP for tanks in any game.
Guard Stance: Just to get to other skills.
War Cry: To attract the enemies to you.
S-Atk Up1: It'll boost your S-Atk to kill things faster.
JA Bonus1: To boost your crits so you do more damage.
S-Def Up: Boost your Def so you don't die easier.
The steps: I think these are needed in all builds just for the heck of it.

Here is one if you just smash things with NO crits, http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebxbqnjuqIbf

Hp Up1: You need plenty of HP for tanks in any game.
Guard Stance: Just to get to other skills.
War Cry: To attract the enemies to you.
S-Atk Up1: It'll boost your S-Atk to kill things faster.
S-Def Up: Boost your Def so you don't die easier.
The steps: I think these are needed in all builds just for the heck of it.

Thanks alot :D

I'll consider the second build ^^

Lostbob117
Jun 28, 2012, 09:10 PM
Best answer to this would be that i dont really know but i probably dont o-o


Do you just hold down the left button on your mouse or repeatly press it?

Sigmund
Jun 28, 2012, 09:14 PM
Lostbob117, that's a JA (Just Attack). Critical hits are numbers that appear in green when you damage an enemy. (At least, I think?)

Lostbob117
Jun 28, 2012, 09:16 PM
Lostbob117, that's a JA (Just Attack). Critical hits are numbers that appear in green when you damage an enemy. (At least, I think?)

A just attack is when you time your hits with the red circle around you(Which is a crit.), smashing is holding the button down.

sliferx94
Jun 28, 2012, 09:27 PM
Do you just hold down the left button on your mouse or repeatly press it?

I dont hold the left button i repeatedly press it

Lostbob117
Jun 28, 2012, 09:29 PM
I dont hold the left button i repeatedly press it

Do you time with the red circle?

sliferx94
Jun 28, 2012, 09:44 PM
Do you time with the red circle?

I try to time my right click with the red circle but no usually i dont care about red circle if its left clicking

Lostbob117
Jun 28, 2012, 09:45 PM
I try to time my right click with the red circle but no usually i dont care about red circle if its left clicking

Okay, so go with the 2nd build.

Adelheid
Jun 28, 2012, 10:02 PM
Someone mentions fury crit was a 30% increase in DPS at 20% extra crit. This isn't true. For 1.5x crit modifier it's only a 10% increase in DPS, at 2x modifier it's 20% increase in DPS.

To figure out the increase in DPS over normal DPS you have to use the following formula.

(1-Crit Rate)+(Crit Rate*Crit Modifier)

or

(100-Crit Rate)+(Crit Rate*Crit Modifier) if you don't want to use %ages

So for 20 we have:

(1-.2)+(.2*1.5) = 1.1.

Ie. an increase from 1 (100% of your normal DPS) to 1.1 (110% of your normal DPS).

Or

(100-20)+(20*1.5) = 110.

But even this is wrong, because we may have some base crit rate... Lets assume our base crit rate is 5% (though obviously it seems dependant on ability).

Then our default DPS before fury crit is:

(100-5)+(5*1.5) = 102.5% of the DPS if we had 0% Crit.

If the 20% crit is additive you'll get 112.5% DPS of the DPS if we had 0% crit... meaning it would be a 112.5/102.5 -1 = 9.75% increase in DPS.

So, a 9.75% increase in DPS from 10 points is decent, but when you consider this compared to fury stance itself...

150 Damage on a 600 damage weapon is 25% extra DPS as long as the damage formula is linear wrt damage.

Sigmund
Jun 28, 2012, 10:18 PM
A just attack is when you time your hits with the red circle around you(Which is a crit.), smashing is holding the button down.
No, they are two completely different things. A Just Attack by timing your clicks to the red circle increases your damage by a percentage amount. JA bonus increases that percentage even further.

Critical hits are independent of how you play. It increases your damage by chance depending on your ability stat (or that's what we seem to think).


I try to time my right click with the red circle but no usually i dont care about red circle if its left clicking
Always try timing your attacks by hitting the red circles, it'll increase your DPS and even your attack speed.

Lostbob117
Jun 28, 2012, 10:26 PM
No, they are two completely different things. A Just Attack by timing your clicks to the red circle increases your damage by a percentage amount. JA bonus increases that percentage even further.

Critical hits are independent of how you play. It increases your damage by chance depending on your ability stat (or that's what we seem to think).


Always try timing your hits by hitting the red circles, it'll increase your DPS and even your attack speed.

I know where you are getting at but a Just Attack is basically a crit but, that's how I see. You're probably right though a crit is probably those blue number things I see on my screen sometimes.

Abu Jumal
Jun 28, 2012, 11:03 PM
Are you sure that's the correct URL? I don't see Sword gear ranked and I assumed you'd since they are your favorite weapons.

Yeah I just copy-pasted the old URL without checking out the new one. The correct URL is as follows:

http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEIbkIqoGQf4QIbf

KanekoSaya
Jun 28, 2012, 11:04 PM
What kind of build should you do for partisans?

Sigmund
Jun 28, 2012, 11:21 PM
Yeah I just copy-pasted the old URL without checking out the new one. The correct URL is as follows:

http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEIbkIqoGQf4QIbf
Looks solid. For level 30 cap though, I might favor getting the dodge tree before the guard tree. However, if you do not intend to get the dodge tree at all, then I might have a beef with that~ To each their own though, I really like Step Attack. (How many times have I repeated this)


What kind of build should you do for partisans?
I'm not knowledgeable with Partisans, so here are some post other members made about them:
http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2782288&postcount=20
http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2783092&postcount=46

My guts tells me that this would be my preferred build if I went partisan: http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebIoqnGQ8
6 points leftover to see how Fury Critical works out.

Adelheid
Jun 28, 2012, 11:48 PM
Anyone know the stats on S-ATK? Is it static or percent and how much?

Lostbob117
Jun 28, 2012, 11:51 PM
What kind of build should you do for partisans?

What do you think of this? http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebIoqnqHfndj

Sigmund
Jun 29, 2012, 12:04 AM
Anyone know the stats on S-ATK? Is it static or percent and how much?
Static going from +3 at rank 1 to +50 at rank 10, according to JP wiki.

Adelheid
Jun 29, 2012, 01:03 AM
Static going from +3 at rank 1 to +50 at rank 10, according to JP wiki.

All versions?

Sigmund
Jun 29, 2012, 01:28 AM
Yes. As far as I know, all the versions of each repeated talents have the same growth pattern.

Adelheid
Jun 29, 2012, 01:42 AM
Fair enough. I should also add that gunslash utilises fury stance the most effectively because it has the quickest attacks and the quickest PA output thereby utilising 150 damage more than, say, a sword spec would.

Sigmund
Jun 29, 2012, 01:50 AM
Hum, I wouldn't say that. Gunslash does benefit from the increase of R-ATK provided by Fury Stance whereas the other weapons do not.

I wouldn't say it utilizes Fury Stance the most effectively seeing as there are so many more factors that come into play. They all use it effectively, I fail to understand how having quicker attacks makes Gunslash more suitable for Fury Stance.

Adelheid
Jun 29, 2012, 01:53 AM
A long as the damage/defense formula is linear (ie. each point of damage is as good as the last and the next) then gunslashes utilise it better because they have a higher attack speed thus netting a better total DPS.

For instance, lets say swords do an attack a second and gunslashes do an attack every half second. Then with normal melee attack +100 Damage (lets just imagine you actually do an extra 100 damage with fury stance) is an extra 100 DPS on sword melee attacks. Yet it's an extra 200 DPS on the gunslash attacks.

Imagine if you had a weapon that did 1 damage but attacked a hundred times in a second... +150 S-ATK from Fury Stance would be insane on that weapon.

Compare a weapon that did 1000 damage but only attack every 10 seconds... 150 extra damage would be terrible on that. Obviously these are extreme examples... but because gunslash has faster melee attacks and faster PA output that 150 gets more use "per second" than slower weapons or lower PAs.



Edit: I just tested crit... crit is NOT a multiplier. Crit seems to automatically do the most damage in your damage range.


Edit: Ability doesn't change how hard your crits hit, nor does it change your maximum damage range (though it may increase crit frequency and min damage range)

Sigmund
Jun 29, 2012, 02:17 AM
Nice find on the crit, so basically it'll always hit 100 if your damage range goes from 50~100?

Back on the other topic, I can sort of see where you're going. In game whoever, the difference in speed isn't that drastic. As I said, there are numerous factors, for example:
- The ability of the weapon to hit multiple targets, so each hits benefit from the attack increase
- The speed, partisans aren't that far off in terms of normal attack speed from Gunslash
- Damage modifiers, a Gunslash with 100 S-ATK doesn't do as much damage as a Sword that also has 100 S-ATK on normal attacks

stms5001
Jun 29, 2012, 02:21 AM
is the sword gear skill is useful ?

Sigmund
Jun 29, 2012, 02:24 AM
is the sword gear skill is useful ?
Short answer, yes. Especially if you main Swords - it's a must have IMO.

Adelheid
Jun 29, 2012, 02:29 AM
Spinning Kick all S
Tri Slash all S
Stabby Stab + Shot = R on the Shot S otherwise
Launch + Shot = R on the Shot, S on the Launch.
Charge Shot = R
Grenade Shot = R

The difference between my S-ATK and R-ATK with only fury on (ie, no shifta or drink) with my current weapon (アルバシザー + 8 ) is... 692/619 = 11.8% More S-ATK (which is much less than 11.8% damage).




Also when I say Gunslash is probably the best DPS I'm talking about boss DPS. Obviously Partisan and Sword would probably out damage on multiple spreadout targets.


I will make an edit when I check how much this difference is between melee gunslashes and range shots.



Edit: With Fury ON melee hit crits yellow monkey in lv 1 hard mode mission for 135. Range crits for 131. Note that the damage modifiers on the swings/shots of your weapons MAY be different. And the range damage modifier may be different to the melee damage modifier so these numbers should be taken with a grain of salt.

Edit2: I'm not sure if the range crit was 131 on the body or the head. Will do more testing after city. I can't seem to hit the monkey's head with a melee attack so I may switch to testing on Rockbear or Caterdran.

soulpimpwizzurd
Jun 29, 2012, 04:44 AM
adelheid i got a funky feeling you talking about weak spot on monkey damage, not criticals.

just so we can be sure, critical hits = damage is a number in a greenish/bluish color and they're larger than the regular white numbers

weak spot hit = orangish explosion thing when you hit an enemy, damage numbers stay the same white color.

Adelheid
Jun 29, 2012, 05:47 AM
Yes, I know what crits are.

Hayame
Jun 29, 2012, 02:23 PM
Can u give me smome advice what should I invest in if I want to have wired lance as my main weapon? I dont know 'bout my secoundary weapon yet, but im into Partisans.

BTW. If u can give me some advice about mags to it would be awsome.

I know wired lances aren't about dmg so i wanna by support dps :)
Thx for help.

jsmith
Jun 29, 2012, 07:48 PM
My planned build for Lv30 would look something like this:

http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebInqntQuN6

The worst part is that I'd love to max out Fury Stance/Fury Critical, but these 30 points are not quite enough.

I'm unsure about the point distribution for F.Stance and F.Critical, though. 6 for both seemed like a balanced choice, but... yeah, like I said, I'm uncertain. Thoughts?

Sigmund
Jun 29, 2012, 11:59 PM
Can u give me smome advice what should I invest in if I want to have wired lance as my main weapon? I dont know 'bout my secoundary weapon yet, but im into Partisans.

BTW. If u can give me some advice about mags to it would be awsome.

I know wired lances aren't about dmg so i wanna by support dps :)
Thx for help.
Wired lance does fine damage, who told you they were support DPS? Wired lance have PAs that clear mobs and PAs to deal high damage to a single unit. Their normal attacks are also weaker than the other weapons, so I wouldn't recommend ranking JA Bonus.
In my opinion
For level 30: http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebIoqnGQbo6
For level 40: http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebIoqnGQHO6
This is what I'd consider for a full offensive WL build. Keep in mind though, that we still don't have a review of Fury Critical - just know that there's a chance that it could be not worth it. In which case, here is an alternative:
http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebkIqoGDIbGDj

Here is another build proposed by someone who mains WL as well: http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2783136&postcount=48


My planned build for Lv30 would look something like this:

http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebInqntQuN6

The worst part is that I'd love to max out Fury Stance/Fury Critical, but these 30 points are not quite enough.

I'm unsure about the point distribution for F.Stance and F.Critical, though. 6 for both seemed like a balanced choice, but... yeah, like I said, I'm uncertain. Thoughts?
Later ranks in talents give a bigger bonus, therefore it's better not to spread points evenly in general. Fury Critical needs some more testing before we can recommend it for sure, so I'd probably stick with Fury Stance maxed for the time being. If you're sure that you want Fury Critical either way, then I still recommend you max out Fury Stance first as it'd provide you with more power at that level.
http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebInqnGQhN6

buri-chan
Jun 30, 2012, 01:34 AM
Oh dear. Just as I was going to go ahead with having both Partisan and Wired Lance Gears, I got Speed Rain. That PA is just insane. Decent range with great range when Gear'd, does great damage, fires off fast, is very easy to cancel, with the only drawback being 35 PP at the moment. Stop to charge Gear, coral enemies into a group, then fire off a JA'd Speed Rain and we're talking anywhere between 500 to 1000 damage, easy. It's practically made Wired Lance obsolete.

For now I'll stay away from Wired Lance Gear, to rescind my prior planning. Maybe get it later. Been thinking, and think I'll use the rest of the 5 OB point to get Fury Critical, then start getting S-ATK Up. New plan~ (http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebkbqBqE5Indj) Then when the levels start expanding, I'll try to finish off what I already have.

Adelheid
Jun 30, 2012, 01:55 AM
As it stands now, Fury Critical is not worth it at all.

KanekoSaya
Jun 30, 2012, 03:02 AM
Sorry I didn't get to post back. Thank you guys so much for your help. :3

Adelheid
Jun 30, 2012, 04:27 AM
This is the build I recommend for everyone since Fury Critical is completely not worth it all.

http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebIoqnGQIbGDIbf

Edit: To Elaborate Crits don't give multiple damage, they just max your damage range. Meaning 20% Crit from 10 points in fury (+5 points in JA2, ie 15 points) is no where near 20% DPS, in fact its probably about 1% DPS.

Level 30 Build:
http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebIoqnGDfgDj

2 Spare points to put in either S-ATK or the gears. Either 2 more S-ATK, 1 Gear 1 S-ATK or 2 Gears, depends on the weapons you want to use.

jsmith
Jun 30, 2012, 11:55 AM
I see it was worth the time to come here before I spent my points. Maxing Fury Stance seems like a good idea. Pretty sure I saw people saying that it's only really effective when maxed out, anyway.

Thanks for all the help and suggestions!

Adelheid
Jun 30, 2012, 12:06 PM
Just don't max fury crit.

IndigoNovember
Jun 30, 2012, 12:13 PM
Is Just Guard bad now? I used it in Closed Beta and it worked wonderfully. I'm asking since you don't have it in your recommended build Adelheid.

Adelheid
Jun 30, 2012, 12:24 PM
The build I recommend is damage focused and to that end Just Reversal is pretty much required (else you waste time on the ground). Dodge Attack and Step Advance or whatever are required for that... but also, if you can avoid dying with just dodges it is a lot better for your DPS because not only do you avoid all the damage, guarenteed, but you also reposition yourself into a better spot to hit weakspots or get closer to the mob and you can cancel the animation delay of dash into an attack that doesn't progress your combo.

That, and the timing window is easier for dodges than just guards so that makes dodging favourable for people with higher ping to the JPN servers. Of course, block is still available for use.

All that said, if you really hate dodging and love guarding then feel free to change the dodge tree for the guard tree. My recommended build was mostly about avoiding JA2/Fury Critical, because crits suck, and picking up S-ATK instead (which may even help with meeting weapon requirements, I'm not sure, I need to check).




Actually that makes me think... if the S-ATK talents contribute towards weapon requirements then Fury stance might actually be worse than 2x Maxed S-ATKs because they may enable you to use awesome high end weapons that have much more than 150 extra damage over the weapons you can get without the 2x Maxed S-ATK talents.

Then again those high level weapons are much harder to grind elemental percents on, so maybe that won't be worth it either.... lots of testing to do.



Edit: If S-ATKs let you get weapon reqirements then, along with an attack mag I would go from about 420 S-ATK @ 100 S-ATK MAG to 520 SATK @ 100 S-ATK MAG + 100 S-ATK Talents which would qualify me for アーディロウ weapon which has 542 S-ATK @ +10. Whereas in the 420 @ 100 S-ATK MAG build I would only be able to weild the タルナーダ sword which has 491 S-ATK @ +10. This is an S-ATK gain of 51 making a total of 151 S-ATK from 100 S-ATK Talents + 51 S-ATK Gain from qualifying for アーディロウ, meaning it's BETTER than Fury stance.

However, those weapons will be hard to get 50% Element Grind on... an easy weapon to max out, the アルバクレイモア (requires 320) +10 50% Element weapon on a monster weak to that element will have an effective S-ATK of (320+100 Mag+150 Fury Stance +393 Weapon)*1.5 = 1444.5. Compared to the non-elemental damage S-ATK build @ 320+100+100+542 = 1062. However if you could possibly max out the elemental advantage on that weapon you'd net 1593 effective S-ATK with the S-ATK build.

So, I've yet to test this... but if S-ATK Plus Talents work for your weapon requirements... then if you're super rich (ie you can get any rare weapon of any element and max the element grind) then S-ATK is way better. If you're planning on element grinding a bunch of cheap weapons, however, then fury stance is probably better.

Note that these numbers are based on my female newman hunter (I'm 29 now, but I think I'll have 320 S-ATK @ 0 S-ATK Mag @ level 30) and may slightly differ for other players.

Going a full S-ATK build also means missing out on Partisan/Wired Lance gear. But if you are focusing on swords anyway.... This is why I used swords in my example above.

Example of a full S-ATK Build:
http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebIoqnj4QqoI3

You can't max the 2nd SATK at level 30 unless you drop points somewhere, but it's still enough to make it better than fury stance IF you're super rich and if you're going swords... at least for a newman hunter. Also note that at level 40 with my Fury Stance build... you get the first S-ATK Talent maxed ANYWAY so this hypothetical build would probably lose out @ lvl 40.

Please remember this build is only any good if S-ATK actually lets you qualify for higher requirement weapons, if it doesn't then it's just a 'safer' but much worse version of Fury Stance that no max-DPS minded individual would take over Fury Stance.


Edit2: Also if you just want one beefy weapon and don't want to grind up a bunch of different elements and switch between them when needed... then an S-ATK build would also be good for that, again only if the S-ATK talents contribute towards stat requirements like mags do.

Edit3: Also, disclaimer: The math presented above may be wrong, I am working under the assumption that elemental damage modifier directly modifies the S-ATK statistic number and NOT the "damage done when you hit something" number and does not do anything weird.

Zinron
Jun 30, 2012, 12:55 PM
Planning on remaking my character. Didnt get too far, played around with some builds I was considering and now I have a much better grasp on everything (plus I get a chance to move ships)

My old build was looking like this:
http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEIbkItOdD8

Very dissappointed with the Partisan gear. Its great and all, but not worth it imo. I thought I could work with the silly way it builds meter but in the end it just wastes time. Wont be getting anything into Fury Stance this time around.

The new build will be looking like this:
http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEIbkIkbj4QIbf

From there I'm deciding on getting warcry, automate halfline, or just dumping it into all of the HP masteries.I just have a couple questions on Warcry and Automate. Now I'm not asking if I should get them, but rather details on what they do.

Regarding Warcry:

Firstly does anyone have a clue how aggro works in this game in the first place? It seems like Hunter just have natural hate and generate more than other classes? I recall instances with the Rockbear and Catadran where me and my buddies fight them split up me (ranger) on one, my buddies (hunter and ranger) on another. They kill theirs first the hunter comes up to mine and suddenly its on him the rest of the fight when he hardly touched it.

Perhaps they go for the closest target? How does it work out with multiple hunters?

Secondly duration and cooldown? I checked that one wiki and it just shows a number, not entirely helpful.

Automate Halfline:

What the priority list on which mate it uses?

Is there any pause for animation or is it like the mag autoheal (I doubt there would be a pause but I'd hate to assume and get slapped in the face for it)

Sigmund
Jun 30, 2012, 01:49 PM
Dodge Attack and Step Advance or whatever are required for that... but also, if you can avoid dying with just dodges it is a lot better for your DPS because not only do you avoid all the damage, guarenteed, but you also reposition yourself into a better spot to hit weakspots or get closer to the mob and you can cancel the animation delay of dash into an attack that doesn't progress your combo.
I don't agree with this. If you time Just Guard, you will receive no damage and remain in position to keep DPSing. Just Guard also deals damage to whatever targeted you.
If you want to dodge, you have to move out of the attack's way and move back in to continue DPSing. That is unless you time the dodge's invincibility frames perfectly, which brings up...



That, and the timing window is easier for dodges than just guards so that makes dodging favourable for people with higher ping to the JPN servers. Of course, block is still available for use.
From my experience, Just Guards is way more forgiving on the timing than using the invincibility frames of Step dodge. In fact, a higher ping would make using those split seconds even harder than Just Guarding.



Actually that makes me think... if the S-ATK talents contribute towards weapon requirements then Fury stance might actually be worse than 2x Maxed S-ATKs because they may enable you to use awesome high end weapons that have much more than 150 extra damage over the weapons you can get without the 2x Maxed S-ATK talents.
Aren't meeting stats requirement for a weapon only a temporary thing? If we compare two characters that are at max level, both being able to wield the end game weapon, the one who maxed Fury Stance would be at an advantage. The other character who maxed S-ATK Up talents, while being able to wield end game weapons earlier, will end up weaker than the other in comparison.
This is assuming that end game weapons doesn't have ridiculously high requirements.

Another thing to consider about S-ATK Up is that since it adds a raw numerical value, its effectiveness declines as you level. However, since JA Bonus is percentage based, its effectiveness increases as you have more base S-ATK.



Regarding Warcry:

Firstly does anyone have a clue how aggro works in this game in the first place? It seems like Hunter just have natural hate and generate more than other classes? I recall instances with the Rockbear and Catadran where me and my buddies fight them split up me (ranger) on one, my buddies (hunter and ranger) on another. They kill theirs first the hunter comes up to mine and suddenly its on him the rest of the fight when he hardly touched it.

Perhaps they go for the closest target? How does it work out with multiple hunters?

Secondly duration and cooldown? I checked that one wiki and it just shows a number, not entirely helpful.
I can't say for sure, but I have a feeling that they do go for the closer target that deals DPS. I have yet to test it thoroughly.


Automate Halfline:

What the priority list on which mate it uses?

Is there any pause for animation or is it like the mag autoheal (I doubt there would be a pause but I'd hate to assume and get slapped in the face for it)
I believe it only uses Monomates. I plan to get this skill, but not before the level cap is lifted - so I can't test it at all. I also doubt that it'd have a pause animation, that'd just be stupid - imagine using a potion in the middle of a fight automatically.

[edit] Updated the FAQ yet again, please have a look!

Rob2003ert
Jun 30, 2012, 03:12 PM
Aren't meeting stats requirement for a weapon only a temporary thing? If we compare two characters that are at max level, both being able to wield the end game weapon, the one who maxed Fury Stance would be at an advantage. The other character who maxed S-ATK Up talents, while being able to wield end game weapons earlier, will end up weaker than the other in comparison.
This is assuming that end game weapons doesn't have ridiculously high requirements.

Given we don't even know what the final level cap will be, you shouldn't really run on assumptions like this. For all we know, the final level cap will allow you to max both Fury Stance and S-ATK Up talents. S-ATK Up undeniably provides a bigger boon earlier on given it lets you equip stuff earlier, so you're better to get that first.

You also need to keep in mind when theorycrafting about future updates (level cap raises, at least) that the current skill trees aren't set in stone. We already know both Knuckles and Double Sabers are an inevitability in the future, it's not farfetched to assume that one (or both) of them will get a relevant "Gear" skills to power up their PAs, other skills may or may not be moved around when this happens, as well as other (new) passives showing up on the tree. It's nice to have a general idea of the direction you wanna take with cap raises, but don't get your heart too set on something and don't make a build that relies on assuming the skill tree will remain unchanged from here til end game.

soulpimpwizzurd
Jun 30, 2012, 03:18 PM
on just guard, things i've noticed:

after you successfully just guard, you get roughly .5 seconds of invincibility. i like practicing on that one turret you'll find in the city that shoots a bunch of bullets at you.

also to me, it seems just guard has the same timing as max dodge, it's roughly about .25 seconds imo, maybe .3. this is all based off of feel though.

there are specific examples i can call that show just guard is more advantageous than dodging, a good example would be dragon's tail whip. it tends to have a wide and long range, so in order to dodge it depending on your situation, you'd have to go pretty far away, and then make that distance back to attack it. however if you just guarded, you could just guard, hit it once, and then just guard again, and be close enough to hit it straight away.

if you were super close and it tried to tail whip, chances are depending on the type of tailwhip (he has the back one and the front one) you could dodge to his front. but timing the invincibility frames to go through the tail whip may prove difficult. but i could see someone dodging>step attack>dodging>step attack through both hits. dragon tail whip is probably one of the easier attacks to just guard/see coming and react to.

there's always the other case though.

in terms of attack guardability, depending on the attack (this is a case of, works against, does not work against, not efficiency wise)

guard>just guard (you can just guard dragon fireball but i dont think you can guard it (regular one not spirit bomb one)> dodge (can dodge through anything))

rob you bring up good points but at this point i'm so in love with this game i honestly don't mind buying another skill tree.

on automate halfline, i'm absolutely positive it auto heals like the mag restoration trigger ability.

LatinWolf
Jun 30, 2012, 03:44 PM
This is the build I'm looking at right now:
http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEIbInqnAdfGDIbf

I only use Swords and I find that Sword Gear works incredibly well during boss fights and any fight that drags on in general.

Only thing up in the air is my JA bonus vs Fury Stance ratio. I have yet use Fury Stance since I went straight for Sword Gear in game. not sure how I feel about dipping my DEF during boss fights to be honest.

Might consider putting that 1pt in Just Reversal, only real times I'm in real danger during fights is when I get "combo'd" from being knocked down and get up into another attack.

HFlowen
Jun 30, 2012, 04:24 PM
Waitwut

Has critfury actually been tested or are we just speculating how crits work? I'm right on the cusp of putting points into it.

Sigmund
Jun 30, 2012, 05:30 PM
Given we don't even know what the final level cap will be, you shouldn't really run on assumptions like this. For all we know, the final level cap will allow you to max both Fury Stance and S-ATK Up talents. S-ATK Up undeniably provides a bigger boon earlier on given it lets you equip stuff earlier, so you're better to get that first.

You also need to keep in mind when theorycrafting about future updates (level cap raises, at least) that the current skill trees aren't set in stone. We already know both Knuckles and Double Sabers are an inevitability in the future, it's not farfetched to assume that one (or both) of them will get a relevant "Gear" skills to power up their PAs, other skills may or may not be moved around when this happens, as well as other (new) passives showing up on the tree. It's nice to have a general idea of the direction you wanna take with cap raises, but don't get your heart too set on something and don't make a build that relies on assuming the skill tree will remain unchanged from here til end game.
Yes, it's obvious that the game is not set in stone at this stage and believe me, I try to warn members who asks for advices as much as possible. I could plaster the whole thread with disclaimers, but who would read them?

Knuckles and double sabers? Now that sounds like speculating to me. We work with what we have and what we are presented with. If SEGA decides to change it in the future, that's not a variable we have control over. Perhaps they'll give free resets when that happens, perhaps not.


on just guard, things i've noticed:

after you successfully just guard, you get roughly .5 seconds of invincibility. i like practicing on that one turret you'll find in the city that shoots a bunch of bullets at you. also to me, it seems just guard has the same timing as max dodge, it's roughly about .25 seconds imo, maybe .3. this is all based off of feel though.
A perky trick you can use to know when you do a successful Just Guard is that in the auto-words menu, there's an option to make it so your character will say something if you execute Just Guard correctly.


there are specific examples i can call that show just guard is more advantageous than dodging, a good example would be dragon's tail whip. it tends to have a wide and long range, so in order to dodge it depending on your situation, you'd have to go pretty far away, and then make that distance back to attack it. however if you just guarded, you could just guard, hit it once, and then just guard again, and be close enough to hit it straight away.
A boss that I like to abuse Just Guard out of is Catadran, it's so satisfying staying in his face and just keep hammering at him repeatedly. :>


This is the build I'm looking at right now:
http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEIbInqnAdfGDIbf

I only use Swords and I find that Sword Gear works incredibly well during boss fights and any fight that drags on in general.

Only thing up in the air is my JA bonus vs Fury Stance ratio. I have yet use Fury Stance since I went straight for Sword Gear in game. not sure how I feel about dipping my DEF during boss fights to be honest.

Might consider putting that 1pt in Just Reversal, only real times I'm in real danger during fights is when I get "combo'd" from being knocked down and get up into another attack.
I wouldn't recommend using Fury Stance until you practiced enough to know how to deal with a boss properly either, but you have the potential to deal that much more damage once you've learned the patterns.

As far as I know, you get a temporary invincibility period when you're knocked down until you're back up again. It does suck though when that exact moment meets you with another attack.


Waitwut

Has critfury actually been tested or are we just speculating how crits work? I'm right on the cusp of putting points into it.
Adelheid did some test on critical hits, refer to the FAQ on the first post. If Adelheid could tell me how he did the test, I'd be happy to replicate it for further testing.

HFlowen
Jun 30, 2012, 06:02 PM
I've seen how blue numbers represent the upper range of a particular attack, I just don't know how that is identified as a "critical".

Screw it, I'll dump points in there and see if anything is different since we only have one thing to go on.

Can always buy a new tree in the full release.

Rob2003ert
Jun 30, 2012, 10:01 PM
Knuckles and double sabers? Now that sounds like speculating to me. We work with what we have and what we are presented with. If SEGA decides to change it in the future, that's not a variable we have control over. Perhaps they'll give free resets when that happens, perhaps not.

SEGA stated it, they've already shown off Knuckles in a cutscene. Not to mention placeholder data was found for them in the files of the game. Whether or not we'll get Gear skills for them is certainly speculation, but the weapons themselves are definitely coming.

Sigmund
Jun 30, 2012, 10:38 PM
I see... it sounds like another class-wide weapon to me, like the Gunslash.

word2own
Jun 30, 2012, 10:55 PM
So is putting a point into Partisan Gear a waste (if I plan to be partisan main)? Seems all it does is increase AOE range and charging it up isn't really all to efficient for the most part.

Adelheid
Jun 30, 2012, 10:56 PM
I don't agree with this. If you time Just Guard, you will receive no damage and remain in position to keep DPSing. Just Guard also deals damage to whatever targeted you.
If you want to dodge, you have to move out of the attack's way and move back in to continue DPSing. That is unless you time the dodge's invincibility frames perfectly, which brings up...

You're only out of position if you dodge away from your target... why would you do that. Also you're thinking about Just Counter. And you don't "remain in position to keep DPSing" because a lot of the attacks you have to block are ranged or include movement from the boss, meaning you're out of position.



From my experience, Just Guards is way more forgiving on the timing than using the invincibility frames of Step dodge. In fact, a higher ping would make using those split seconds even harder than Just Guarding.

The invincibility frames are icing on the cake, I'm talking about just straight up dodging. Step Advance is just something nice to have, the true benefit is being able to dodge whenever and resume your combo by canceling into an attack, and having just reversal is a must. This means when you see the tell that the enemy is about to do an attack you can dodge out of the way, cancel into an attack and keep DPSing.

With just guard this isn't the case, you can't just see the enemy's tell and then block, you have to see the enemy's tell then time the block perfectly after that (and all the different attacks by different enemies have different time frames from when they project that they're about to attack and that attack actually happening).

With Step Advance, you just get out of dodge before it even happens and keep DPSing. Step advance is just for if you screw up and take too long to dodge, maybe you'll get lucky and be invincible.

All that and... dodges can, from my experience, cancel out of attacks a lot earlier than guards (if guards can at all). Meaning just guarders are probably going to have to dodge a lot -anyway- simply because they may be in attack animations they can't cancel with block.

Obviously anyone can normal dodge but people who don't spec into the dodge tree and use dodge will be lowering their DPS. Similarly anyone can normal guard, so when dodge can't work (caterdrans stunning spin) you just block. Yeah you take a little damage if you don't have Just Block and Just Block it, but so what? You might screw up the just block and normal block anyway... and you should be using dodge most of the time if you're max-DPS minded. That means just block only helps you in that in reduces the already small amount of damage you take. If you block infrequently or are max-DPS minded, then it's not worth it, especially since if you screw up, it doesn't work anyway. It's essentially impossible to screw up Step Attack or to screw up a dodge if you notice the enemy's tell.

If you never dodge and always block though, and you know the timing for every enemy ever, then Just Guard will reduce a huge amount of damage. So go for that if you absolutely hate dodging.


Aren't meeting stats requirement for a weapon only a temporary thing? If we compare two characters that are at max level, both being able to wield the end game weapon, the one who maxed Fury Stance would be at an advantage. The other character who maxed S-ATK Up talents, while being able to wield end game weapons earlier, will end up weaker than the other in comparison.
This is assuming that end game weapons doesn't have ridiculously high requirements.

Another thing to consider about S-ATK Up is that since it adds a raw numerical value, its effectiveness declines as you level. However, since JA Bonus is percentage based, its effectiveness increases as you have more base S-ATK.

It isn't a temporary thing because many of the best (but most expensive and rare) weapons have S-ATK requirements that are much higher than what is attainable at level 30 (the current max level) and in fact lvl 30 + lvl 99 S-ATK mag you can't even use some of the weapons. Ie. Both characters can't wield the end game weapons, only the S-ATK character could (Assuming the S-ATK talents contribute to stat requirements).

At the current max level someone with max S-ATK, if it contributes, can definitely use way better weapons than someone without it, especially if combined with an S-ATK Mag.

This might be different at level 40, but like I said, at level 40 my build has full fury stance and max S-ATK Boost 1 so that is probably way better than going max S-ATK boosts at 40 unless you need the extra 50 S-ATK to quality for the ultimate weapon of doom @ 40.




Edit:

Assuming S-ATK talents contribute to item requirements:

This build:
http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebIoqn4QfGDIbf

Allows a Female Newman Hunter; 320 Base S-ATK @ LVL 30 Use this weapon:
http://pso2.swiki.jp/index.php?%E3%82%A2%E3%83%BC%E3%83%87%E3%82%A3%E3% 83%AD%E3%82%A6

Since she will have +99 S-ATK from Mag and +50 S-ATK from skills (note that if you do not have an S-ATK mag you obviously won't be able to use this weapon).

Which is 51 damage higher than the weapon you can use with JUST +99 from your mag:
http://pso2.swiki.jp/index.php?%E3%82%BF%E3%83%AB%E3%83%8A%E3%83%BC%E3% 83%80

But, like I said, it'll be pretty much impossible to give that weapon a good elemental grind, meaning you may want to just use Fury Stance + a weapon like:
http://pso2.swiki.jp/index.php?%E3%82%A2%E3%83%AB%E3%83%90%E3%82%AF%E3% 83%AC%E3%82%A4%E3%83%A2%E3%82%A2

With 50% element grind.

Rob2003ert
Jul 1, 2012, 12:10 AM
Guarding seems to function differently with each weapon, so it's kind of hard to debate it's usefulness when different players will get different mileage from it. Sword is my go-to weapon and after a successful Just Guard there's absolutely no recovery frames if you're pressing a direction (you essentially cancel it by moving), but when I'm rocking the Wire Lance I can't do this, which makes dodging more efficient for the most part with Wire Lance. And he's not thinking of Just Counter Adelheid. Just Guard reflects damage back at the enemy, Just Counter lets you immediately do a Just Attack (normal or PA) immediately after a Just Guard, which is pretty handy.

MissMalice
Jul 1, 2012, 12:39 AM
Wish I had found this thread sooner. D: It is very informative. Unless there's suddenly a way to reset SP without the cash shop, I'll be rolling a new character tomorrow!

Anywho~ Thread: Bookmarked. c:

buri-chan
Jul 1, 2012, 01:03 AM
So is putting a point into Partisan Gear a waste (if I plan to be partisan main)? Seems all it does is increase AOE range and charging it up isn't really all to efficient for the most part.

It's been pretty useful to me so far. It pretty much gives you sword-level damage with lance-level range. Charging is a bit clunky, but since it is guarding, so long as you're facing the enemy it doesn't get in the way. I just wish we could still attack multiple points at once like in Universe/Portable. Caterdran would go down in seconds.


Wish I had found this thread sooner. D: It is very informative. Unless there's suddenly a way to reset SP without the cash shop, I'll be rolling a new character tomorrow!

Anywho~ Thread: Bookmarked. c:

When the full-game comes out, there's an AC purchase for additional skill trees. You just buy one, then go to the class counter and switch it. You keep all trees you have, and you can allocate all your points in a new tree as you see fit.

Adelheid
Jul 1, 2012, 01:25 AM
Guarding seems to function differently with each weapon, so it's kind of hard to debate it's usefulness when different players will get different mileage from it. Sword is my go-to weapon and after a successful Just Guard there's absolutely no recovery frames if you're pressing a direction (you essentially cancel it by moving), but when I'm rocking the Wire Lance I can't do this, which makes dodging more efficient for the most part with Wire Lance. And he's not thinking of Just Counter Adelheid. Just Guard reflects damage back at the enemy, Just Counter lets you immediately do a Just Attack (normal or PA) immediately after a Just Guard, which is pretty handy.

Ah right, fair enough. I still stand by dodging for max DPS. Especially since just reversal is pretty much requires, and getting both Step attack and just guard wastes points that are needed for DPS talents.

Zinron
Jul 1, 2012, 01:34 AM
You're only out of position if you dodge away from your target... why would you do that. Also you're thinking about Just Counter. And you don't "remain in position to keep DPSing" because a lot of the attacks you have to block are ranged or include movement from the boss, meaning you're out of position.

I don’t think dodge versus blocking would change dps towards one side or another. Granted you are consistent with Just Gaurds it takes about as much time to do as a dodge then you get the JC afterwards. I don’t really see a loss or a gain there other then it seems like JC gives a bigger bonus than JA. (Not sure about if Step attack affects it at all)


With just guard this isn't the case, you can't just see the enemy's tell and then block, you have to see the enemy's tell then time the block perfectly after that (and all the different attacks by different enemies have different time frames from when they project that they're about to attack and that attack actually happening).

This is true.For myself at least I just need to fight a boss once and I can usually get the JGs down afterwards. The worst part is when you get in those situations where the bosses attack comes in at a weird angle and you miss the block entirely. I will say though, there has been a number of times where I miss timed the block so I just release and hit guard again. Worst case I get a normal guard and take minimal damage.


All that and... dodges can, from my experience, cancel out of attacks a lot earlier than guards (if guards can at all). Meaning just guarders are probably going to have to dodge a lot -anyway- simply because they may be in attack animations they can't cancel with block.

I havent played too much with wired lance (not a fan of thier long grab animations) but with Partisan and Sword just about any attack or skill you can step to cancel out of you can also jump out of which allows you to immediately jump -> JG. If your already airborne then you can just go into guard. Dont remember the exceptions to that offhand though.

Rob2003ert
Jul 1, 2012, 01:42 AM
Ah right, fair enough. I still stand by dodging for max DPS. Especially since just reversal is pretty much requires, and getting both Step attack and just guard wastes points that are needed for DPS talents.

Funnily enough, I don't have Just Reversal and swear by Just Guard, to each their own I suppose lol. As for whether guard or dodging is better from a DPS standpoint, the way I see it is it varies pretty greatly by what you're fighting and with what weapon. Dodge seems to beat out Guarding all the time with a Wire Lance, but with Sword I'm more inclined to Just Defend stuff in most cases. I guess the most notable exception would be Caterdran, unless I'm tanking both at the same time I pretty much live entirely on dodging, because I can dodge straight to his body and hit it whilst he's stretched out for the weak point bonus damage. Each pretty much have their uses in different situations, knowing when and where to use each to maximize your effectiveness is just something that comes with time as you learn the bosses.

And whilst not really relevant in this thread, you brought it up so it's worth mentioning. 50 Element on a weapon doesn't increase your damage by 50% like some people are claiming. Haven't extensively tested, but both me and a friend have done a little and come to the same conclusion. We believe it just adds the element value as attack to enemies weak to it. Brief testing on level 1 enemies made 300 damage on average shots with a non-ele weapon jump to around 320 average with a 50 fire element weapon. The differences are just as small on high level stuff too.

EvilKyo
Jul 1, 2012, 02:10 AM
So I am thinking of making a Sword gear based build...and was thinking of running something along the lines of this...tell me what you think? http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebIo4Nj4QqoIk

Adelheid
Jul 1, 2012, 02:17 AM
Thanks for the replies.

Like I said it's up to you which one you prefer. But from a DPS standpoint Just Reversal and Dodging is superior because Just Reversal gets you off the ground and back DPSing perfectly (also the timing is always the same) and Dodging is superior to Guarding for DPS because it allows you reposition at the same time as avoiding damage.

Of course, in any situation where guard vastly outweighs dodge... anyone who specs for dodging can also guard as long as they aren't using gunslashes, they just can't Just Guard or Guard Counter. Instead if you spec for just guard you -can't- dodge attack and you can't just reversal.

While you lay on the ground I'll already be behind the mob hitting their weakspot with simply a just reversal + dodge -> attack cancel. When the mob turns to attack you you'll have to block and maybe get some reflect damage... and I'll be behind the mob attacking the weak spot.

All the bosses are fairly mobile, or at least the parts you have to hit, with perhaps the exception of Rockbear. Caterdran digs around and does weird flips. Desert Worm goes underground and pops up at random spots and does dashes across the map. Ragne does hopes and turns around alot (thus moving his legs out of the way). The dragon digs and hops and charges and spins and everything. Dodge attack is simply invaluable as is just reversal for maximising DPS.

If you don't want to maximise DPS, however, this doesn't matter.


As for the elements thing, I'll do a test on it later, but in PSO/PSU the type advantages have always been percents and I would be surprised if they changed it now. Please do remember that a 50% bonus to S-ATK isn't the same as a 50% bonus to damage.



So I am thinking of making a Sword gear based build...and was thinking of running something along the lines of this...tell me what you think? http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebIo4Nj4QqoIk

Max S-ATK 1 first then go for Fury Stance, or go min S-ATK1 and go max Fury. No reason to waste points in the HP talent to hit S-ATK 2 since they both give the same bonus,

Crimson Exile
Jul 1, 2012, 02:52 AM
Thanks for the replies.

Like I said it's up to you which one you prefer. But from a DPS standpoint Just Reversal and Dodging is superior because Just Reversal gets you off the ground and back DPSing perfectly (also the timing is always the same) and Dodging is superior to Guarding for DPS because it allows you reposition at the same time as avoiding damage.

Of course, in any situation where guard vastly outweighs dodge... anyone who specs for dodging can also guard as long as they aren't using gunslashes, they just can't Just Guard or Guard Counter. Instead if you spec for just guard you -can't- dodge attack and you can't just reversal.

While you lay on the ground I'll already be behind the mob hitting their weakspot with simply a just reversal + dodge -> attack cancel. When the mob turns to attack you you'll have to block and maybe get some reflect damage... and I'll be behind the mob attacking the weak spot.

All the bosses are fairly mobile, or at least the parts you have to hit, with perhaps the exception of Rockbear. Caterdran digs around and does weird flips. Desert Worm goes underground and pops up at random spots and does dashes across the map. Ragne does hopes and turns around alot (thus moving his legs out of the way). The dragon digs and hops and charges and spins and everything. Dodge attack is simply invaluable as is just reversal for maximising DPS.

If you don't want to maximise DPS, however, this doesn't matter.


As for the elements thing, I'll do a test on it later, but in PSO/PSU the type advantages have always been percents and I would be surprised if they changed it now. Please do remember that a 50% bonus to S-ATK isn't the same as a 50% bonus to damage.




Max S-ATK 1 first then go for Fury Stance, or go min S-ATK1 and go max Fury. No reason to waste points in the HP talent to hit S-ATK 2 since they both give the same bonus,
I went S-Atk 7, fury stance 5, picking up partisan gear an sword gear. I plan on maxing S-Atk and Fury stance.

EvilKyo
Jul 1, 2012, 02:56 AM
Really...? well currently my current in game build looks like this. http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEIbInqnqqf4QIbf
I'm a Human male hunter and was wondering if I will have enough s-atk by lvl 30 to wear the 9* gear. Lvl 20 almost 21 btw and I have a level 63 mag lvl. 47 striking/lvl. 16 ability was kinda confused on how I should build if I want to maximize damage and have an amazing weapon.
I should add my current base s-atk is 348 at lvl 20

Adelheid
Jul 1, 2012, 03:09 AM
Testing elements is hard because if it affects the S-ATK stat it wont' directly translate into 50% more damage (ie 50% more S-ATK doesn't necessarily mean 50% more damage). That being said it's obvious that it doesn't directly affect damage itself (ie. it won't make you hit 150 damage if you're hitting for 100 damage).

I'll need to play around with it more. If it does affect the S-ATK stat as a percentage than high level low rank weaopns with 50% grind will be better than high level high rank items with 0% grind. If it's just a straight S-ATK increase rather than a %age thing (why wouldn't it be a %age? Otherwise elemental damage scales poorly with level) then elements will suck in this game.

Crimson Exile
Jul 1, 2012, 03:10 AM
Really...? well currently my current in game build looks like this. http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEIbInqnqqf4QIbf
I'm a Human male hunter and was wondering if I will have enough s-atk by lvl 30 to wear the 9* gear. Lvl 20 almost 21 btw and I have a level 63 mag lvl. 47 striking/lvl. 16 ability was kinda confused on how I should build if I want to maximize damage and have an amazing weapon.
I should add my current base s-atk is 348 at lvl 20
Whats the base stat needed on the weapon? I'm lvl 25 and I just got enough to use my 3* spears. I needed 393 im at 396 with S-atk at level 6.

Mag is like lvl 83 60+atk on it. Don't remember by hard.

Adelheid
Jul 1, 2012, 03:12 AM
Whats the base stat needed on the weapon? I'm lvl 25 and I just got enough to use my 3* spears. I needed 393 im at 396 with S-atk at level 6.

Mag is like lvl 83 60+atk on it. Don't remember by hard.

You need:
458 S-ATK - Highest Damage Sword
458 S-ATK - Highest Damage Wired Lance
400 S-ATK - Highest Damage Partisan (Incomplete list, possibly 458 S-ATK too)
431 Ability - Highest Damage Gunslash (But Note there is a new Gunslash there without it's stats listed, I wouldn't be surprised if it was 458 Ability req).

Note that these are the stats/weapons given on: http://pso2.swiki.jp

The lists there are -not complete- and the Partisan list especially seems to be lacking 9* weapons so the 400 number may be wrong.



Edit: Also can someone with points that they're going to put in S-ATK Boost 1 confirm whether S-ATK talents increase your base or not? From the posts of these lower level people saying they have 390+ I suspect it does, since I'm 30 and have 320 @ 0 S-ATK mag and 0 S-ATK talents.

EvilKyo
Jul 1, 2012, 04:16 AM
Well I was just wondering giving my stats and such that if I get to lvl 30 will I even be able to wear the stuff? and is there a way I can use this build with it? http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/...IbInqnqqf4QIbf Or do you guys think that the 9* weapons aren't even worth it...?

soulpimpwizzurd
Jul 1, 2012, 04:20 AM
@adelheid i can agree with you on some points you make but i disagree with you on some others

one of your common arguments are that you don't have to wait to time to just guard an attack, you can just dodge around and start attacking straight away.

my counter argument would be if you understand boss tells well enough, you don't have to just sit there waiting for the boss to do his attack and then just guard. you can continuously attack and then just guard when you need to. however you're correct, with some weapons you do not have this flexibility to cancel in to a guard immediately, which is necessary to constantly be doing damage without fear of mistiming just guard.

i have noticed it's not the same for partisan and wired lance. many of their skills are dodgecancelable but few are guard cancelable. however almost all sword attacks can either instantly or very soon after casting (.2 seconds after maybe) you can cancel the attack. the only attack that is uncancelable both dodge and guard wise is nova strike, which dps wise isn't that good anyway since it's so slow. pp conserving wise it's great but you'll do more damage by spamming sonic arrow and some just attacks.

so your argument on having to wait for a just guard to time it perfectly works for partisans and wired lance (which i assume you're using) but not sword.

i am definitely not downplaying the role of dodging however. even as a sword user, i'm almost always using dodge attack>just attack>sonic arrow. i just like how in the event of an emergency and i know i won't be able to dodge out of the radius of an attack, i can just guard. indeed, i may sacrifice a few points i could be spending to maximize dps, but just guard increases my ability to never undertake damage by a lot. it is definitely less useful for wired lance and partisan users though, i won't even try to defend that argument, considering the fact that they dodge faster than sword as well.

when fists come out however, i may be changing my tune about just guard, considering how you may not be able to guard with fists at all, if they're going to use the attack patterns for unarmed, for fists. unarmed currently has a standing dodge similar to super smash brothers melee's shield down maneuver, in place of guard when you place shift.

word2own
Jul 1, 2012, 05:25 AM
Want some opinions here; so Ability is theorized to give more critical chance. I made a Ability mag so far, with 40 Ability. Raising some def atm but was thinking about going back and raising some more Ability. If going for DPS build, should I put some points into the Max Critical? Or if raising more Ability/dumping SP into Max Critical, would I be overflowing on the critical chance (if that above theory is true)? I'm using partisan as main weapon if that helps. Thanks.

Sp-24
Jul 1, 2012, 05:44 AM
Don't know about Ability/critical. However, if you are going for a DPS build, depending on your race and skill choice, you may want to consider adding some points to S.Attack, or else you may not be able to learn some of the highest level PAs, which won't benefit your DPS, obviously.

Adelheid
Jul 1, 2012, 07:12 AM
The problem is even if you can just attack and just guard and all that... if you're actually in need of gaurding (ie. an enemy is facing you and attack you) then are you really hitting their weak point? For some enemies this is the case but for most enemies you will probably need to maneuver around to get to the weak spot. This is why dodging is superior for DPS because it prevents damage while also allowing to manuevre whereever you want to go where a block will have to stop blocking and then run or dodge anyway to get into position for weakspot DPS.

If knuckle weapons come out and they aren't comedically huge boxing gloves like they were in PSU/PSP but instead they're awesome designed gauntlet things then I will probably main them. Shift -> JA -> Repeat is OP.

Edit:

Also with the revelation of crit not being a multiplier... I don't think ability will even remotely compare to S-ATK, especially due to item stat requirements and there being a pretty good rare gunslash that uses S-ATK rather than ability anyway.

I will still make my mag max ability and I'll make a 2nd mag for max S-ATK.

soulpimpwizzurd
Jul 1, 2012, 08:18 AM
The problem is even if you can just attack and just guard and all that... if you're actually in need of gaurding (ie. an enemy is facing you and attack you) then are you really hitting their weak point?

yes, you actually are hitting their weak point for enemies that matter (bosses).

when you're guarding like you said chances are you'll be at the front of the enemy. however i suppose you do have to use sword's rising edge to reach them. but if you can maintain 3rd level sword gear there's really no point in moving since you'll reach them so easily.

vol dragon: weak point horns are in the front. a jump>sonic arrow/just attack /jump>sword uppercut will reach and hit them. also the tail yes, but arguably horns are more important since if they break you get more drops from the boss's red crystal. of course if you break it's crystal tail it'll collapse allowing your teammates to gank it. but i find that whenever i try to chase it's tail i always end up gaining too much aggro and he keeps spinning around to face me. :/. also, who doesn't like more drops?

rockbear: face is weak point. just guard>jump attack>sonic arrow>jump uppercut. has no weakpoint from behind.

ragne: weakpoint is broken, incredibly easy to hit with sword gear even if you're in front. granted it is behind his head so you'd at best have to get to his side (at least that's what the game is trying to usher the player to do), you just jump and blindly do an uppercut and there's huge chances you'll hit it's weakpoint behind it's head. you can actually just clip inside of ragne. so you just jump forward and unleash your uppercut after you go kinda underneath ragne/clip into him, and you'll end up hitting its weakpoint.

enemies i can think of that you still have to dodge around to hit weakpoints:
karutagos, enemies with platform backs
accordian dragon- your argument definitely holds true here. most of the time its best to dodge>punish his vulnerable stretched out areas
big queen bee that spawns mobs. sometimes you can't dodge behind it very easily though so it's best to just use your weapons "grab" attack and force it to stay on the ground.

probably a few others but you can see that those enemies are rather minor. so far each boss except the accordion dragon has a weak point in the front or very close to the front/can just hit the front and it'll get hit anyway.
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shift just attack is funny. you can float forever if you time it. if fists get an aerial photon art that lets you gain the same vert partisan kickflip/sword uppercut does, i bet it'll be somewhat exploitable. just float forever in place shift justattacking a boss's weakpoint lool
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also to put it into perspective, lets say you just guard but you're still a little far away from the boss's weak point regardless. since after you just guard an attack that attack you're safe, you can just just guard dash straight toward the boss and punish. however with wired lance/partisan, you may have to dodge to the left or right, or maybe even backwards, and then dash towards the weak point.

just guarding eliminates the need to distance yourself from bosses / boss attacks while simultaneously reflecting some damage back. think of it as normally you'd have to dodge left then up to evade a boss attack (2 dodges, first dodge does no damage), however with just guard in some cases, you just guard which does damage, and dodge forward once to get close to the boss (first dodge done with partisan/wired lance in this case is replaced by just guard.) in most cases you can skip the dash forward and start attacking right after you just guard. and i already provided evidence against maneuvering yourself to weakpoints from behind, since like i said earlier, most are easily accessible from the front.
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but just so it's clear, i completely admit most of what i say is mostly only applicable to sword users, and also if they have sword gear. your advice is still more beneficial for those that are going wired lance/partisan. hell, even when you finish one of joshua's sword client orders, it teaches you about just guard. what weapon do they use to show it in the demo video? sword. that should be a big enough hint as to how sword is the main weapon to use just guard with. it still helps other weapons but it's definitely the most useful for sword.

Rob2003ert
Jul 1, 2012, 08:43 AM
The problem is even if you can just attack and just guard and all that... if you're actually in need of gaurding (ie. an enemy is facing you and attack you) then are you really hitting their weak point? For some enemies this is the case but for most enemies you will probably need to maneuver around to get to the weak spot. This is why dodging is superior for DPS because it prevents damage while also allowing to manuevre whereever you want to go where a block will have to stop blocking and then run or dodge anyway to get into position for weakspot DPS.

If you want to make this argument, neither are really better than the other:
Rockbear: Face, perfect for guarding
Caterdran: Body or tail (broken crystal), dodge is superior here, but if you break tail then guarding is superior for his tail slam attack
Dragon: Guarding is better for horn, if you're aiming for tail to stagger him then dodge wins out
Guwanda: No weak point unless staggered, neither has a benefit over the other
Ragne: Same here, not really any benefit to one over the other

Either way, in my eyes the best builds out there will have at the very least Just Guard and Step Attack, Just Counter and Just Reversal are not necessary, but nice. I'm a pretty huge advocate of Just Guard, but I use and abuse dodging plenty too, it's foolish to limit yourself to one in my eyes. There's times where you do need to reposition yourself and other times where staying on the spot will benefit you more, learning to use both is key. I can understand not wanting to spend points for both Just Guard and Step Attack if you feel the SP investment is a little high, but I have both and all 3 Gear skills with my current build, I don't really think there's any excuse to miss out on them if you're focusing on one weapon.

soulpimpwizzurd
Jul 1, 2012, 08:58 AM
I don't really think there's any excuse to miss out on them if you're focusing on one weapon.

well.. there actually is. i mean, those few points you spend on just guard could be redirected to maxing fury critical. fury critical's growth is much higher at levels 7-10. each point is 3% more intead of 1% or 2% at it's earlier stages. it could also be spent maxing regular atk which also has more benefit at max level.

once you max fury critical you have a 1 in 5 chance of getting a critical hit. adel did the calculations which i looked over and agree with; it's roughly only a 10% damage increase but that's still rather large, considering your burst damage could go up nicely since it'll definitely effect your photon arts.

also like it's been pointed out earlier, just guard is admittedly significantly more difficult to use if you're a wired lance/partisan user, as not all photon art attacks are guard cancelable as fast as they are dodge cancelable. and precise timing is necessary for just guard to work.

lol watch every boss monster in future updates is going to have weakpoint only in the back and i'll be eating my words lol

Rob2003ert
Jul 1, 2012, 09:07 AM
Forgive me for being lazy, but where did he post the numbers? The post of his that's linked in the OP only calls the skill worthless, kinda jumped in to this thread a little late. Also, do we know if it even gives a flat 20% crit rate boost or does it increase your current crit rate by 20% (so if you had 10% crit rate, it'd bump it to... 12%). One is good, the other is... well, garbage. Just Guard is infinitely better than the latter, even if you plan to rarely use JG, but the former is up for debate.

Sigmund
Jul 1, 2012, 09:14 AM
Actually, according to Adelheid the DPS increase after Fury Critical is 1%.

We still have to learn the cap level for our talent trees. Depending on the number, spending points in Just Guard may be justified. (i.e.: Getting JG instead of S-ATK Up 2 @ rank 4.)

[edit] I suppose we're referring to this (http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2783727&postcount=80)

soulpimpwizzurd
Jul 1, 2012, 09:32 AM
edit, he does understand, i'm still skimming and being lazy. we don't know if it adds %'age to, or multiplies %'age to critical hit rate.

i'm willing to bet my money that it increases the chances by 20%, not chances multiplied by 20%. the character's base critical chance being multiplied by 20% is too little benefit for a skill.

the translation for the skill is once again vague. it says it ups critical hit rate by 20% but we don't know what up means. does it mean just general crit hits or is it our base critical value by 20%. it could be argued both ways lol. why is this so vague, even in japanese it's vague it's not an issue of translation.

Rob2003ert
Jul 1, 2012, 09:38 AM
Actually, according to Adelheid the DPS increase after Fury Critical is 1%.

We still have to learn the cap level for our talent trees. Depending on the number, spending points in Just Guard may be justified. (i.e.: Getting JG instead of S-ATK Up 2 @ rank 4.)

[edit] I suppose we're referring to this (http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2783727&postcount=80)

That post of his you linked in the edit is him running on the assumption that crits are 1.5x or 2x damage, seems he's tested it more since then and came to the conclusion that it only makes you do top-end damage for your standard attack range? That's still decent but far worse than 1.5x or 2x damage mods. Either way, if you're maxing Fury Stance and intending to use it full time you're best to get Fury Critical regardless, but 10 points is a lot to dump in it comparatively.

soulpimpwizzurd
Jul 1, 2012, 09:46 AM
That post of his you linked in the edit is him running on the assumption that crits are 1.5x or 2x damage, seems he's tested it more since then and came to the conclusion that it only makes you do top-end damage for your standard attack range? That's still decent but far worse than 1.5x or 2x damage mods. Either way, if you're maxing Fury Stance and intending to use it full time you're best to get Fury Critical regardless, but 10 points is a lot to dump in it comparatively.

nah it's not an assumption about the 1.5 damage, i'm pretty sure he's right. i've done a few criticals, and some were solid examples:

regular just attack i do ~230 dmg. crit hit just attack i do ~350 damage. its definitely not twice the damage since i never broke 400 dmg with a just atk crit.

i don't think it's top end damage for our attack range though. my just attack damage is pretty consistent. it's almost always in the 230-280 range. i've never broken 300 unless i was hitting a weak spot, or of course, landed a critical and saw turquoise numbers appear.

Rob2003ert
Jul 1, 2012, 09:49 AM
I see, I don't crit enough to have a solid opinion on what it does for damage, I'd assume it was like most any other game and does 1.5x damage or ignores defence or something, but I always take stuff like that with a grain of salt until I see solid evidence or can confirm it myself. The latter isn't happening any time soon with my current crit rate!

Adelheid
Jul 1, 2012, 09:53 AM
(Edit: I should point out that that post was back when I was showing why +20% crit at 1.5 times isn't 30% extra DPS, it's actually 10% DPS. I later did some tests and found out that fury crit only gives you the maximum on your damage range. You can see this post here: http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2784050&postcount=93

You can take my word on it, you can test it yourself, or if you want I could make a video showing me testing it and come to your own conclusions.)




First of all the 1% number I gave was just throwing a number out there, it can be higher depending on your damage range.

For instance if you do 1-1000 Damage your "expected average damage" per hit is 500.5 assuming that any particular roll in the damage range is equally likely. And lets say you crit 0% of the time. Then +20% Crit rate will mean 20% of your hits are 1000 while the rest will average out to the expectation value.

This means you new expectation value will be ((80*500.5)+(20*1000))/100) = 600.4

Which is: 600.4/500.5-1 = 20% Increase in damage.

However lets say your damage range is 100-150. Then the expectation value is 125.

Your new damage will be ((80*125)+(20*150))/100) = 4% Increase in Damage.

But what if you start off with crit rate, like a crit rate of 5%?

Then assuming fury critical is additive (it should be).


1-1000 Damage:
Original Average Damage:
((95*500.5)+(5*1000))/100) = 525.47500

After Fury Crit:
((75*500.5)+(25*1000))/100) = 625.37500

% DPS Increase:
625.37500/525.47500-1 = 19%


100-150 Damage:
Original Average Damage:
((95*125)+(5*150))/100) = 126.25

After Fury Crit:
((75*125)+(25*150))/100) = 131.25

% DPS Increase:
131.25/126.25-1 = 3.9%

But what if your damage range is 900-100?

900-1000 Damage:
Original Average Damage:
((95*950)+(5*1000))/100) = 952.5

After Fury Crit:
((75*950)+(25*1000))/100) = 962.5

% DPS Increase:
962.5/952.5-1 = 1.05%



What if you have a lot of crit?

1-1000 Damage with 80% Base Crit:
Original Average Damage:
((20*500.5)+(80*1000))/100) = 900.1

After Fury Crit:
((0*500.5)+(100*1000))/100) = 1000

% DPS Increase:
1000/900.1 = 11.1%

Notice that this is DOWN from 19% Before. So if more Ability means more crit rate... then the more ability you get the less effective fury critical becomes. Not only that but Ability is supposed to lower the damage range... meaning criticals become even less important.

Basically the wider your damage range is the more worth it Fury Critical is. As it stands now, at level 30, I don't think the damage gap is wide enough that 15 points for 20% crit is worth it.




Edit2: I will make up a formula to tell you what percentage of damage range you need for fury crit to be worth 10% DPS (ie. equal to 1.5 times damage crit rate). Will take a bit.




Edit:
Okay, ASSUMING 0% CRIT.

Take your average damage (estimate it) - If your damage range is equal to your average damage (ie. lets say your average damage is 400, then if your damage range is 200-600 (ie your damage range is 400 wide)) then 20% Fury Crit will give you 10% DPS.

Assuming 5% Base Crit a damage range equal to your average damage will give you approximately 9.75% DPS

Assuming 50% Base Crit a damage range equal to your average damage will give you 8% DPS


If your damage range is HALF your average damage (ie. 400 average damage, 300-500 damage range):

0% Base Crit = 5% DPS gain from Fury Crit
5% Base Crit = 4.93%
50% Base Crit = 4.4%

If it's a quarter (400 Damage, 350-450 damage range) expect about a 2.5% DPS increase.


Basically, if your damage range isn't around about the size of your average damage (it isn't for me) then I don't think I'd recommend fury critical. I suspect most people's damage range puts them in the 2.5% DPS range.

Rob2003ert
Jul 1, 2012, 10:01 AM
Do you have it maxed out (Fury Crit, that is)? You said you're assuming it adds a flat 20%, would be nice to get a confirmation if it does work like that or it's a 20% improvement to your base crit rate. It really should add a flat 20%, but you never know... if it doesn't then the 10 point investment isn't worthwhile at all, even if you constantly use Fury Stance. I don't wanna level another Hunter to 30 to test this, lol.

Adelheid
Jul 1, 2012, 10:23 AM
Rob: Unless crit rates act EXTREMELY strangely, there are basically only two ways +20% can work.


Way one is additive: I have 10% Crit, I get Fury Critical, now I have 30% Crit. This is -almost certainly- the way it works.

The other way is multiplicatively: I have 10% Crit, I get fury critical, now I have 10%*1.2 = 12% Crit, Ie 20% more crit than before. It is almost certainly not like this. I say this only because it would be so ridiculously underpowered, like way more underpowered than it already is for our current damage ranges. I doubt their talent stat budgeting works like this.

So as long as critical rates don't work in a completely foreign way such that listing critical rate gains as percentages makes NO sense, then my calculations stand for the 'best case scenario' (ie. Additive) for fury critical... and it's still not that great.



If the skill trees don't change and we eventually get to ridiculously high levels where +50 S-ATK from talents doesn't matter then JA1 and JA2 and Fury Critical will become much better... but if that happens we'll be able to spec into everything anyway.



Personally I suspect they'll bring out class changes where you can "extend" your Hunter tree down multiple paths and that is where our new SP will go to. I suspect after level 50 or so.

Rob2003ert
Jul 1, 2012, 10:28 AM
Yeah, I was asking if you could confirm if it is additive or multiplicative. It'd be bizarre for them to choose the latter, but stranger things have happened and I've seen some games do it resulting in certain items or skills to be completely worthless. I don't like to assume stuff, especially when it comes to MMOs, since a lot of the time the devs throw out some completely inane way to do damage or stat calculations, which is why it'd be nice if we could get concrete info as to how it works. Given it takes 28 points at a minimum to max Fury Crit though, I doubt anyone has it high enough to easily test it, but it wouldn't take too long with only a handful of points in it still.

Adelheid
Jul 1, 2012, 10:45 AM
I don't know which one it is, but I don't even advocate it if it was additive unless your damage range is insanely large.

gigawuts
Jul 1, 2012, 03:36 PM
I've recently hit the level cap but stopped spending points after getting step attack, wirelance gear, and sword gear. That left me with 4 remaining SP, and then since I found myself using the partisan when underleveled or going solo I decided to just get the partisan gear. Just a quick personal review:

So far I'm very pleased with the partisan gear. After a PA that knocks back an entire group, you just let the twirl animation finish and resume attacking. It's that simple. Hell, trick rave (the kick-drill attack) fills a bar DURING the attack itself. It's a great investment and easy to keep filled. The only issue is doing attacks in midair: You don't do an animation that fills the bar when you land. Not even trick rave will fill a bar.

Sword gear is fantastic as well, what REALLY makes it come together is the penetrating sonic arrow hitting things three times with all three bars filled. This lets you keep it full with ease.

All three are useful, but I'm sorry to say the wirelance gear is indeed the least useful - or rather, most situational. I haven't actually noticed that much of a gain with the damage, and the damage isn't why I used wirelances. While I used them almost exlcusively at first, now that I have all three gears I only find myself using them to keep a certain enemy in a perpetual state of stun, like El Adas and Breeders so they can't attack or deploy seed pods, but the extra damage never comes into play for that because attack-attack-PA comboing won't sustain the gear bars. Maybe if I finish grinding my weapon from +8 to +10 I'll get that last smidgen of damage, I'll have to see.

If they had more bars and less damage required per bar I'd love wirelance gear to bits, but as it is they're very situational and partisan gear covers the crowd control fine.

Kazzi
Jul 1, 2012, 05:01 PM
Actually i was wondering if anyone would be able to help me in here since it's hunters. I'm having trouble getting the timing right for Just Reversal, any tips as to when to press the space bar?

IndigoNovember
Jul 1, 2012, 09:10 PM
Actually i was wondering if anyone would be able to help me in here since it's hunters. I'm having trouble getting the timing right for Just Reversal, any tips as to when to press the space bar?

Wait until you have hit the ground before hitting space bar.

Geistritter
Jul 1, 2012, 10:22 PM
Thanks for the replies.

Like I said it's up to you which one you prefer. But from a DPS standpoint Just Reversal and Dodging is superior because Just Reversal gets you off the ground and back DPSing perfectly (also the timing is always the same) and Dodging is superior to Guarding for DPS because it allows you reposition at the same time as avoiding damage.

Of course, in any situation where guard vastly outweighs dodge... anyone who specs for dodging can also guard as long as they aren't using gunslashes, they just can't Just Guard or Guard Counter. Instead if you spec for just guard you -can't- dodge attack and you can't just reversal.

While you lay on the ground I'll already be behind the mob hitting their weakspot with simply a just reversal + dodge -> attack cancel. When the mob turns to attack you you'll have to block and maybe get some reflect damage... and I'll be behind the mob attacking the weak spot.

I dunno what game you've been playing where every attack is nearly unavoidable, can't be guarded, and knocks you down, where Just Reversal would be pretty necessary, and where you can't have both Just Guard and Just Reversal, but I'm glad this isn't it, because that sounds annoying as hell.

Your points about the skill in the game that's actually being discussed are largely hampered by the fact that there are about half a dozen attacks in the entire game total that can knock you down, and if you're capable of just moving out of the way, they probably won't hit you in the first place. Just Guard/Counter is also almost as useful when it comes to pressing an attack, because instead of just getting out of the way to step attack, you can just block a hit and pick up your offense from there. Just Guard can also help you in places dodging may not, such as Dark Ragne's wave of disks. It's also overall safer than dodging. And hell, Just Guard does damage to the enemy on top of everything else.

So no, Reversal isn't a godly, must-have skill, and dodging isn't an invincible tool that completely negates the use of Just Guard/Counter. Reversal is a wholly situational tool that you won't even be using most of the time, particularly if you're good at reading the boss' patterns. Is it useful? Yeah. Do you have the big advantage you claim over anyone without it? Absolutely not. And there are times where Just Guarding is flat out a better idea than dodging.

Step Attack is something I like quite a lot and recommend to anyone, but if it was between it and Just Guard/Counter, I'd get the latter first, because on the whole it's just more useful. This game's hardly difficult enough to quibble over such things, though; the only major concern I have is what choices we make today hamper our ability to make use of things we want in future skill branches, because you know we're gonna have to pay real money to undo those mistakes.

Randomness
Jul 1, 2012, 10:27 PM
I dunno what game you've been playing where every attack is nearly unavoidable, can't be guarded, and knocks you down, where Just Reversal would be pretty necessary, and where you can't have both Just Guard and Just Reversal, but I'm glad this isn't it, because that sounds annoying as hell.

Your points about the skill in the game that's actually being discussed are largely hampered by the fact that there are about half a dozen attacks in the entire game total that can knock you down, and if you're capable of just moving out of the way, they probably won't hit you in the first place. Just Guard/Counter is also almost as useful when it comes to pressing an attack, because instead of just getting out of the way to step attack, you can just block a hit and pick up your offense from there. Just Guard can also help you in places dodging may not, such as Dark Ragne's wave of disks. It's also overall safer than dodging. And hell, Just Guard does damage to the enemy on top of everything else.

So no, Reversal isn't a godly, must-have skill, and dodging isn't an invincible tool that completely negates the use of Just Guard/Counter. Reversal is a wholly situational tool that you won't even be using most of the time, particularly if you're good at reading the boss' patterns. Is it useful? Yeah. Do you have the big advantage you claim over anyone without it? Absolutely not. And there are times where Just Guarding is flat out a better idea than dodging.

Step Attack is something I like quite a lot and recommend to anyone, but if it was between it and Just Guard/Counter, I'd get the latter first, because on the whole it's just more useful. This game's hardly difficult enough to quibble over such things, though; the only major concern I have is what choices we make today hamper our ability to make use of things we want in future skill branches, because you know we're gonna have to pay real money to undo those mistakes.

Hey, this is the JP server. If SEGA does a redesign of the tree, they'll probably reset them.

Geistritter
Jul 1, 2012, 10:31 PM
I'll believe it when I see it. It'd be the classy thing to do, but also the least immediately profitable, and history shows that when immediate profit is involved, companies tend to become dicks as soon as possible.

Geistritter
Jul 1, 2012, 11:00 PM
Also, while I'm not sure critical hits just make you do your maximum damage potential, I do agree that it's not as much as 1.5 times damage, if it's a multiplier at all, or I'd be doing 2000+ damage consistently with Divine Launcher on my Ranger, where the damage range is about 1300-1600 without a critical hit and no buffs. It's a lot easier to get a feel for this when you're already doing a lot of damage.

So yeah, that's my two cents on that topic.

Adelheid
Jul 2, 2012, 12:42 AM
I dunno what game you've been playing where every attack is nearly unavoidable, can't be guarded, and knocks you down, where Just Reversal would be pretty necessary, and where you can't have both Just Guard and Just Reversal, but I'm glad this isn't it, because that sounds annoying as hell.

Your points about the skill in the game that's actually being discussed are largely hampered by the fact that there are about half a dozen attacks in the entire game total that can knock you down, and if you're capable of just moving out of the way, they probably won't hit you in the first place. Just Guard/Counter is also almost as useful when it comes to pressing an attack, because instead of just getting out of the way to step attack, you can just block a hit and pick up your offense from there. Just Guard can also help you in places dodging may not, such as Dark Ragne's wave of disks. It's also overall safer than dodging. And hell, Just Guard does damage to the enemy on top of everything else.

So no, Reversal isn't a godly, must-have skill, and dodging isn't an invincible tool that completely negates the use of Just Guard/Counter. Reversal is a wholly situational tool that you won't even be using most of the time, particularly if you're good at reading the boss' patterns. Is it useful? Yeah. Do you have the big advantage you claim over anyone without it? Absolutely not. And there are times where Just Guarding is flat out a better idea than dodging.

Step Attack is something I like quite a lot and recommend to anyone, but if it was between it and Just Guard/Counter, I'd get the latter first, because on the whole it's just more useful. This game's hardly difficult enough to quibble over such things, though; the only major concern I have is what choices we make today hamper our ability to make use of things we want in future skill branches, because you know we're gonna have to pay real money to undo those mistakes.

There are definitely many situations where guarding is better than dodging, but very few where just guarding in particular is vastly better than guarding (which everyone can do without SP) such that it warrants extra SP spent into the just/counter variations. This is in part because you seldom need to block. Step attack and just reversal, however, are vast vast improvements over the alternative.

Like I said, I prefaced my build and my arguments about dodge with saying this is about doing the most DPS you can possibly do. No one is perfect and even the best players will get knocked down every now and then, being knocked down without Just Reversal-ing means you lose a HUGE amount of uptime on the boss.

I don't know how many MMOs or online RPGs you've played or min/maxed in, but almost always the top contributors to DPS are +Hit% (which this game doesn't have) and Uptime on the Boss. This is because those two things scale -perfectly- with DPS. Considering that not only can step attack and just reversal keep your uptime near 100% but -also- just reversal often saves you from death where you would be doing 0 DPS (A Dead DPS Does No DPS, remember?), especially if you use fury stance and are a newman.

As for Ragne's waves of Disks... I usually just jump them... you can sit there DPSing his face while he waves as much as he wants. That being said I usually stick on the legs and never see the waves coming in my direction.

As you say, the game is hardly difficult enough that you NEED any particular spec, let alone to use SP at all... but thats not what people are coming to this thread for. People want the best spec to do the most DPS or the best spec to be the tankiest, or the best spec that fits their particular playstyle. All I've been talking about is about doing max DPS.

But, just like you say with Just Reversal, if you play perfectly all the time you may not need it... well if you play perfectly all the time then dodge completely satisfies your defensive needs (though it does add maneuvering)! And if you play completely perfectly then guard satisfies all your defensive needs! But no one is a perfect player and that isn't what we're talking about here.





As for criticals, if you want I'll make a video showing that either crits simply do your maximum damage range... or something sufficiently similar as to be indistinguishable from simply hitting your maximum damage range.

buri-chan
Jul 2, 2012, 01:33 AM
A little treatise on using Partisan Gear:

You've got two ways to recharge your meter: guarding, or letting the spin animation play after an attack. Guarding is nice for between battles, and only takes about two seconds. In-battle is how you're supposed to use it actively, and the spin animation takes somewhat less than a second. But here's how you should use it in-battle;

Normal attack -> Just Attack PA -> Wait for spin animation -> Repeat

It's up to you to decide whether or not that pause in-battle is interruptive or not. I can definitely see someone not liking the mechanic. While there is a chance for a counter-attack or for the enemy to move, they should have been short-stunned with the hit and you can always chain a normal hit in there for PP regen. The damage boost is usually at least 1.5 - 2.0, and the range becomes more or less the same as a Wired Lance. Using Speed Rain, I'm sending out quick waves of five 200-damage hits, chaining together three of them in a single combo for more than 3000 damage in a massive arch that hits enemies even on the side of me, and in less than 10 seconds. It's pretty monstrous.

Adelheid
Jul 2, 2012, 01:59 AM
Here is a video of me showing that critical hits almost certainly only do the maximum of your damage range. Either that or it does something indistinguishable from such.

http://youtu.be/0JEsjX-9-lw

Sigmund
Jul 2, 2012, 02:39 AM
The damage boost is usually at least 1.5 - 2.0 [...]
Wait, Partisan Gear increases the damage of its PAs? I thought that was the selling point of Wired Lance's Gear.


Here is a video of me showing that critical hits almost certainly only do the maximum of your damage range. Either that or it does something indistinguishable from such.

http://youtu.be/0JEsjX-9-lw
Well done! I appreciate the effort you put in solving these puzzles for the community.

Adelheid
Jul 2, 2012, 02:51 AM
Also it may be worth putting in the FAQ that the Shot component of Gunslash PAs is based off your ranged attack stat.

Geistritter
Jul 2, 2012, 04:57 AM
Someone also mentioned somewhere that the damage stat used for Gunblade PAs is based on which mode you're in. This is untrue.

soulpimpwizzurd
Jul 2, 2012, 05:05 AM
Here is a video of me showing that critical hits almost certainly only do the maximum of your damage range. Either that or it does something indistinguishable from such.

http://youtu.be/0JEsjX-9-lw

WHELP DAS ENUF PROOF FOR ME

crit is garbage and raising fury critical is now an incredibly stupid idea. thanks man, definitely putting those points somewhere else. you've saved me from a grave, grave skill tree fuckup. i'd rep+ but i can't in this forum. i was dead set on maxing fury critical but it's mega worthless <_>

i'll probably max fury stance and increase the other basic atk+ stats.

Adelheid
Jul 2, 2012, 05:55 AM
It might be worth it at higher levels or if your damage range is absurdly large.

soulpimpwizzurd
Jul 2, 2012, 06:32 AM
It might be worth it at higher levels or if your damage range is absurdly large.

as it is now i don't think it's worth the 10 points. my damage range must already be pretty large since i kept thinking it was 1.5x extra damage. but i still don't think it's worth it, especially if old skills from the alpha make a come back (mainly normal attack pp regen)

if i had to choose max normal attack pp charge and max fury crit even with a large damage range, i'd definitely choose max pp regen

God of Awesome
Jul 2, 2012, 10:26 AM
I have a few questions I hope you guys can answer.

Is Fury stance worth the SP? How long does it last and what's the loss/gain?

I see everyone is focused on DPS maxing, I'm going DEF maxing, I'll let you know if it's worth it.

What's the best gear? I ended up getting Partison because sword required wasted SP.

Even with no SP in step advance I can avoid all damage regularly(not always though). I think it's great and I don't even need it.

Any PAs anyone recommends? If you could explain it too that'd be great. I think I have the good ones.

Finally, thanks for the video adelheid, helped me out.

Adelheid
Jul 2, 2012, 10:33 AM
Fury stance lasts ages, not sure exactly how long. It has a 60s cooldown for recasting (like if you turn it off quickly and want to turn it back on again).

If you're maxing DEF then isn't sword mastery a good choice?

Rob2003ert
Jul 2, 2012, 10:54 AM
Words
Partisan Gear doesn't boost the damage of your PAs, maybe you're getting it confused with the JA damage boost? Partisan is purely range increase, Wire Lance is damage (the bonus increases the more bars you have, even though it only uses 1 per PA) and Sword increases range, number of hits (this is the only instance where damage seems to increase, but it's minor unlike Wire Lance) or charge time for PAs.

Here is a video of me showing that critical hits almost certainly only do the maximum of your damage range. Either that or it does something indistinguishable from such.

http://youtu.be/0JEsjX-9-lw

Excellent, thank you for this. I had no reason to disbelieve what you said but it's nice to get concrete proof regardless. With the cash shop opening up I'll certainly be dropping the entire left side of the tree now and focusing entirely on Sword gear and S-ATK Up passives.

Adelheid
Jul 2, 2012, 11:02 AM
Can you confirm is S-ATK talents count for item requirements? I suspect it does.

Sigmund
Jul 2, 2012, 11:04 AM
I have a few questions I hope you guys can answer.

Is Fury stance worth the SP? How long does it last and what's the loss/gain?

I see everyone is focused on DPS maxing, I'm going DEF maxing, I'll let you know if it's worth it.

What's the best gear? I ended up getting Partison because sword required wasted SP.

Even with no SP in step advance I can avoid all damage regularly(not always though). I think it's great and I don't even need it.

Any PAs anyone recommends? If you could explain it too that'd be great. I think I have the good ones.

Finally, thanks for the video adelheid, helped me out.
> If it's anything similar to Guard Stance, Fury Stance lasts as long as you don't manually disable it (or perhaps it's so long I've never cared to notice). At rank 10, it adds 150 S-ATK and R-ATK while reduces your S-DEF by 200.

> I'm also going the DEF route. So far however, I haven't found a use for Guard Stance.

> Depends on you preference. Though since you said you were maining DEF, Sword Gear would be more beneficial to you because you wouldn't need to invest in the offense tree (also the fact that you can't guard cancel out of using partisan and wired lance like you can with swords).

> Get all the PAs. Even the rarer ones are about 20k~30k from the player market. Some noteworthy ones: Speed Rain (スピードレイン) from partisan, Sonic Arrow (ソニックアロウ) from sword and Thrillsplosion (スリラープロード) from gunslash.
Speed Rain because it deals high AoE damage at long range, you won't ever use another partisan PA again.
Sonic Arrow because it helps you keep the Sword Gear bar charged easily and is great at clearing mobs because of the low execution time.
Thrillsplosion because it deal very high damage at a small AoE.


Also it may be worth putting in the FAQ that the Shot component of Gunslash PAs is based off your ranged attack stat.
Done! This thread looks more and more like a Hunter general than a talent tree talk.

Adelheid
Jul 2, 2012, 11:07 AM
Fury Stance does have a duration, but it's very long. Like 10+ minutes long.


Edit: Also from my limited use of partisan gear it did seem to increase damage quite a bit, but I did not explicitly test it so it may have been confirmation bias.

Sigmund
Jul 2, 2012, 11:14 AM
Official release is scheduled for the 4th of July, level cap is confirmed to be lifted to 40.
Source: http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=197131

Zinron
Jul 2, 2012, 11:23 AM
Can you confirm is S-ATK talents count for item requirements? I suspect it does.

Before S-ATK
[SPOILER-BOX]
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/Zinron/pso20120701_160217_000.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/Zinron/pso20120701_160248_001.jpg[/SPOILER-BOX]

Adding skill point
[SPOILER-BOX]
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/Zinron/pso20120701_160305_002.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/Zinron/pso20120701_160309_003.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/Zinron/pso20120701_160314_004.jpg[/SPOILER-BOX]

After
[SPOILER-BOX]
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/Zinron/pso20120701_160324_005.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/Zinron/pso20120701_160346_006.jpg
[/SPOILER-BOX]

Adelheid
Jul 2, 2012, 11:49 AM
Thanks for that. At least for level 30, S-ATK talents will be super useful for qualifying for high end weapons.

soulpimpwizzurd
Jul 2, 2012, 08:31 PM
Fury Stance does have a duration, but it's very long. Like 10+ minutes long.


Edit: Also from my limited use of partisan gear it did seem to increase damage quite a bit, but I did not explicitly test it so it may have been confirmation bias.

yeah supporting this.

i've noticed it's icon will start blinking red before it goes. but it lasts for a long time.

Sigmund
Jul 2, 2012, 09:19 PM
I wouldn't doubt that, I never had to leave Guard Stance on for more than 2 minutes. Needless to say at 10 minutes...

I can't seem to grasps how War Cry works. I have it at 3 and hesitating to get it higher. First of all, it's not an AoE centered around your character where nearby mobs will instantly turn towards you. You have to get close, face the mob and then use War Cry. This will trigger a red smoke effect on the mob indicating a successful taunt. There is also the mentioning of a "hate" effect that increases with the leveling of War Cry, what do you think it means?

[edit] Since I was done leveling Hunter, I spent some time playing as Ranger. By accident, I found out that I was able to do a Just Reversal without even investing in the talent skill. Could it be the same for Hunter as well? If anyone wants to try after the official release, press SPACE right as you hit the ground from being knocked down.

Rob2003ert
Jul 2, 2012, 10:08 PM
"Hate" is a blanket term for basically how much attention you're drawing from the monster. Tanks in your standard MMOs want to draw as much hate/aggro/attention from the mob so it keeps attacking them. If War Cry generates more hate, it means it's less likely to turn it's attention elsewhere. Although playing with Ranger and Force literally the only time I've ever lost the bosses attention is when I've died or not attacked the boss at all (in instances of 2x bosses). Hunter seems to have some sort of hidden aggro+ modifier, because there's been instances where I know I've done less damage than them and the bosses still stay glued to me. Unless things change in future updates, War Cry seems to be a worthless point sink right now. I don't know how I really feel about that, on the one hand as someone who hasn't put points in it I'm pleased, but I think SEGA really needs to rework the defensive skills and make them more appealing.

God of Awesome
Jul 2, 2012, 11:10 PM
Thanks for the info guys! I didn't really want to get Sword gear because I didn't want guard stance, I already have such high DEF buffing it more seemed questionable, especially since I'll be sacrificing SATK.
I think I know those PAs you type of. I have them and spam the partisan multi-slash thing all day. It kills mobs so easily.
Do all you hunters recommend Fury stance? I'm a bit wary because I've seen other hunters take massive damage from attacks and it seems risky.
Is Guard Stance actually good and have I made a mistake?

Sorry about all the questions, I don't want to pay for a reset.

soulpimpwizzurd
Jul 2, 2012, 11:17 PM
Thanks for the info guys! I didn't really want to get Sword gear because I didn't want guard stance, I already have such high DEF buffing it more seemed questionable, especially since I'll be sacrificing SATK.
I think I know those PAs you type of. I have them and spam the partisan multi-slash thing all day. It kills mobs so easily.
Do all you hunters recommend Fury stance? I'm a bit wary because I've seen other hunters take massive damage from attacks and it seems risky.
Is Guard Stance actually good and have I made a mistake?

Sorry about all the questions, I don't want to pay for a reset.

eh, i'm getting max fury stance. so far, all bosses can be practiced so you never get hit ever if you have at least dodge, which makes defense unnecessary. the fact that there is no penalty for reviving, returning to campship, and going back to the boss area, also makes defense less valuable. so it's just all about attack. i find that i do well enough having no stance on.

generally if i'm in a new situation or going into a new boss fight, i'll leave no stance on, MAYBE turn on guard stance. but after those situations get more and more familiar and i find myself never taking damage, i'll reward myself with fury stance and an extra 150 attack.

fury critical is now atm rather useless btw, so don't get it. those 10 points can be better spent elsewhere. i might end up saving them just in case PP normal attack restore makes a come back, that skill is drop dead gorgeous.

Abu Jumal
Jul 3, 2012, 11:33 AM
So with the cap moving towards 40 pretty soon, i've been toying with some possible builds. My intention is to mix the Partisan and Sword gears just to stave off boredom for using a specific weapon but I find myself more and more drawn to a 3 gear build, which is odd because I rarely use the WL. Anyways this is my current build:
http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebInqnGQf4QIbf

And this is the build I intend to work towards:
http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebIoqnGQfGDIbf

Naturally I don't know if they plan to change up the skill trees along with release but for the moment I think an extra bit of SATK couldn't hurt and neither would Just Reversal (seems that my greatest DPS sinks are when i'm knocked down). Guarding is fine and all but I found that just using a regular guard reduces damage by a huge margin and to be honest i'm more prone to just jump dashing out of harms way.

My question for the rest of you is what kind of palette setups do you use? Currently I have 3 for the sword, 2 for the spear, and 1 for the GS.

Sword (No gear) - Rising Edge / Cruel Throw / Stun <- uppercut for knockdown, stun for utility
Sword (Gear) - Rising Edge / Twister Fall / Nova Strike <- Used for close range fights, i've been toying with this one extensively
Sword (Gear2) - Sonic Arrow x3 <- Ranged sword attacks
Spear - Speed Lance x3 <- For pure DPS
Spear2 - Shaker Slide / Rising Flag / Trick Rave <- For fun really, I usually skip the 1st PA
GS - Thrillsplosion / Serpent Air / Thrillsplosion <- For dealing with Code: Rescue events.

Sigmund
Jul 3, 2012, 12:06 PM
Base stats @ lv.100 for each race and gender:
[SPOILER-BOX]http://i.imgur.com/1ivuQ.png[/SPOILER-BOX]

@Abu Jumal
Looks like a solid build to me.

If I can recall correctly, my weapon pallets are:
1) Sword: Stun > Sonic Arrow > Twister Fall
For utility and with no gear charged. I love being able to Step Attack > Stun

2) Sword: Nova Strike > Sonic Arrow > Rising Edge
For extended fights with gear charged. I use it to clear mobs or deal damage to bosses.

3) Wired Lance: Whirlwind > Heavenly Fall > Whirlwind
For utility and grouping mobs together in party play

4) Wired Lance: Gap closer kick > Heavenly Fall > Whirwind
For mobility in some boss fights

5) Gunslash: Thrillsplosion > Rage Dance > Serpent Air
Mostly for Rescue codes

6) Partisan: AoE > Speed Rain > Speed Rain
Mob clear. I usually stick with this unless the mobs are big enough for me to charge Sword gear.

IndigoNovember
Jul 3, 2012, 12:08 PM
My question for the rest of you is what kind of palette setups do you use? Currently I have 3 for the sword, 2 for the spear, and 1 for the GS.

Sword (No gear) - Rising Edge / Cruel Throw / Stun <- uppercut for knockdown, stun for utility
Sword (Gear) - Rising Edge / Twister Fall / Nova Strike <- Used for close range fights, i've been toying with this one extensively
Sword (Gear2) - Sonic Arrow x3 <- Ranged sword attacks
Spear - Speed Lance x3 <- For pure DPS
Spear2 - Shaker Slide / Rising Flag / Trick Rave <- For fun really, I usually skip the 1st PA
GS - Thrillsplosion / Serpent Air / Thrillsplosion <- For dealing with Code: Rescue events.

Have you tried Banter Snatch / Rising Flag / Trick Rave for Partizan? The first two flow well into each other I feel.

Edit: Thanks for finding the projected stats, Sigmund. Wonder how much I'll have to raise my mag in order to be able to use equipment down the road. Currently playing a HUnewearl, so I might need to go something like a 50 S-ATK/ 50 S-DEF mag. Hopefully it won't be that bad and I'll be able to add some Ability in. Don't really want to get S-ATK Up skills though...

Slidikins
Jul 3, 2012, 12:24 PM
.... how does HUmar have such a lead on HUcaseal when it comes to Striking Defense? Sense, it does not make!

*Kadaj*
Jul 3, 2012, 12:35 PM
the skill tree is useless, +100 S-ATK or +50 S-DFP won't make much of a difference seriously

Rob2003ert
Jul 3, 2012, 12:46 PM
My question for the rest of you is what kind of palette setups do you use? Currently I have 3 for the sword, 2 for the spear, and 1 for the GS.

Sword: Rising Edge, Twister Fall, Nova Strike (was my first setup, kinda stuck with it as it's fun to combo between these)
Sword: Sonic Arrow, Sonic Arrow, Sonic Arrow (Probably my most used one now, this skill is great for fast damage and keeping Sword Gear meter filled)
Sword: Rising Edge, Sonic Arrow, Sonic Arrow (For Sonic Arrow spam where I need a little extra height, great for the horn on the back of Vol Dragon)
Wire Lance: Heavenly Fall, Heavenly Fall, Heavenly Fall (Antlion/Ragne rape)
Wire Lance: Other Cyclone, Other Cyclone, Other Cyclone (clearing trash mobs if I'm bored)
Rifle: Rose Bouquet with Poison III, can't use PAs but it's fun to dick around with status effects. Poison does 1.7k per tick to Caterdran and procs very easily with this.

Used to have a Partisan on there (and learned all 3 Gear skills on the skill tree) but pretty much any situation where I'd use it, I feel like I perform better with a Sword or Wire Lance. I occasionally replace one of the Wire Lance palettes with a Partisan just to mess around for fun, but it's not something I use often anymore.

Current build right now is this (wanted all 3 Gear skills to mess around with):
http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebkIqoqDIb4QIbf
Will be buying another tree and going for this at 40 cap:
http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebkbkbjGDqoI3
Or this:
http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebGOkbjGDqoIb
Latter one takes S-DEF Up for the ability to equip some better units. I got some badass looking arm blades that require S-DEF to equip, and I think I'll fall a little bit short even at 40 to equip them. Not really certain what I'm doing yet and I'll be waiting to see what the top tier level 40 gear requires before I make a decision.

Sigmund
Jul 3, 2012, 12:51 PM
.... how does HUmar have such a lead on HUcaseal when it comes to Striking Defense? Sense, it does not make!
I'm new to the PSO series, I'm assuming HUmar is human hunter male and HUcaseal is cast hunter female? Seems alright to me if it is. Iirc, Casts are the ranger race in previous installments while Beastmen were the hunter race.


the skill tree is useless, +100 S-ATK or +50 S-DFP won't make much of a difference seriously
Care to develop?

gigawuts
Jul 3, 2012, 01:06 PM
My question for the rest of you is what kind of palette setups do you use? Currently I have 3 for the sword, 2 for the spear, and 1 for the GS.

I've been running with one of each weapon (occasionally a second of one when I experiment, but I condense it to one again based on mobs/preference)
Sword: Sonic Arrow -> Nova Strike -> Rising Edge
Wirelance: Other Spin -> Other Cyclone -> Heavenly Fall
Alternate Wirelance: Grapple Charge -> Other CYclone-> Heavenly Fall
Partisan: Speed Rain -> Shaker Slide -> Trick Rave
Gunslash: Aiming Shot -> Dance Rage -> Thrillsplosion
Alternate Gunslash: Serpent Air -> Dance Rage -> Thrillsplosion

You can probably spot a trend: All the first attacks tend to be long range. This is because with Step Attack I can just dash strafe, attack, then do a just attack with the first PA - so since they're all longrange I can consistently deal extra damage while also evading attacks. Even dashing backwards still allows me to just attack the opposite way I've dashed.

The second and third were kind of subconsciously arrived at on each weapon. The second is almost always AOE, and the third is almost always mostly single-target. This is mainly because in clustered fights I'll want my AOE asap to avoid any attacks, and in long term fights I'll want the extra PP gained from that second hit so I can sustain my single target damage int he long term. Against El Adas and Breeders heavenly fall is what I normally go with, and tend to regain 80-90% of the PP required for each next PA. The sword is pretty much the same with rising edge.

I'll probably change it as I play, but for now I'm finding a lot of success with this setup. The sword setup is versatile, and if I need a PA that isn't what I'm getting next I just do a step attack and start from PA1 - triple hitting sonic arrows are never a bad way to start dealing damage.

edit:


I'm new to the PSO series, I'm assuming HUmar is human hunter male and HUcaseal is cast hunter female? Seems alright to me if it is. Iirc, Casts are the ranger race in previous installments while Beastmen were the hunter race.
Casts as a race (not the gender) were the bulky, buffery class. They had the most raw health. Caseals had a bit less HP, as females tend to in PSO, but also had the best evasion and I believe defense of the HU group. Rangers tended to be even better, with the RAcast having the most raw HP and the RAcaseal having the best evasion/defense in the game. I could be wrong on the defense bit, but I'm certain on the evasion.


Care to develop?
+100 and +50 are fixed bonuses. At low levels, yeah that's a big bonus of something like 20% - which results in even more damage against enemies. As you level up however you'll start having higher and higher base stats, to the point that +100 isn't that great at all. What you want instead is something that will scale - percentages are worse at low levels but really shine at high levels. Fury Crit seems like the most beneficial long term skill right now, aside from the unique ability skills such as the gears and guard/step trees.

IndigoNovember
Jul 3, 2012, 02:00 PM
+100 and +50 are fixed bonuses. At low levels, yeah that's a big bonus of something like 20% - which results in even more damage against enemies. As you level up however you'll start having higher and higher base stats, to the point that +100 isn't that great at all. What you want instead is something that will scale - percentages are worse at low levels but really shine at high levels. Fury Crit seems like the most beneficial long term skill right now, aside from the unique ability skills such as the gears and guard/step trees.

Uh, Adelheid has done some testing where he's found Fury Critical to be less than useful unless you have a very high damage range (very little ability/skill). If I may attempt a summary, Fury Critical raises the chance of criticals during Fury Stance by some percentage. Since a critical is simply the max damage you can output in your damage range, this ends up being not too useful unless your damage varies from, say 100 - 200. Again, read over Adelheid's posts, he has a lot more information.

As for S-ATK UP, it can be useful in a different sense. It can be used to help you meet equipment and Photon Art requirements. As a HUnewearl, I could invest in S-ATK Up and actually be able to use the 8 and 9 star weapons without requiring much else besides the base stat. Granted you have other ways of raising your S-ATK besides the S-ATK Up skill, such as raising an S-ATK mag, but it is one viable option.

Slidikins
Jul 3, 2012, 02:21 PM
I'm new to the PSO series, I'm assuming HUmar is human hunter male and HUcaseal is cast hunter female? Seems alright to me if it is. Iirc, Casts are the ranger race in previous installments while Beastmen were the hunter race.

Upon reviewing PSO's stats, HUmars did have better DFP than HUcaseals, but the latter stole the show with unmatched EVP (for Hunters). Unfortunately, EVP is a missing stat now, so I'd think they'd give something back to the HUcasey to make up for it...

[EDIT] Yes, your assumption was correct.

Dinosaur
Jul 3, 2012, 02:27 PM
+100 and +50 are fixed bonuses. At low levels, yeah that's a big bonus of something like 20% - which results in even more damage against enemies. As you level up however you'll start having higher and higher base stats, to the point that +100 isn't that great at all. What you want instead is something that will scale - percentages are worse at low levels but really shine at high levels. Fury Crit seems like the most beneficial long term skill right now, aside from the unique ability skills such as the gears and guard/step trees.

This is all wrong. The flat bonuses scale even greater at higher levels since past level 20, you gain 4-5 points in stats per level gained. Considering the amount of levels you need to get that +100 S-atk bonus(passing level 20), it would be 17 level ups worth of s-atk. To be 17 levels ahead in S-atk compared to another hunter is an insane boost.

soulpimpwizzurd
Jul 3, 2012, 02:38 PM
probably the main reason to put points into s-atk for hunters is so you can use higher s-atk requiring weapons and do even more damage. but after i max fury critical i'll leave my points be, in case they ever reintroduce pp normal attack recharge from alpha

gigawuts
Jul 3, 2012, 02:44 PM
This is all wrong. The flat bonuses scale even greater at higher levels since past level 20, you gain 4-5 points in stats per level gained. Considering the amount of levels you need to get that +100 S-atk bonus(passing level 20), it would be 17 level ups worth of s-atk. To be 17 levels ahead in S-atk compared to another hunter is an insane boost.

Yeah, but for how long? My level 30 hunter has about 900 S-ATK with a level 68 or so mag (and a +8 vol scale with vol soul, no fury stance) and only s-atk up 1 leveled to 3.

I'm not necessarily doubting you, but this would be literally the first game I've ever played where a fixed bonus is wise in the long term.

edit:

Uh, Adelheid has done some testing where he's found Fury Critical to be less than useful unless you have a very high damage range (very little ability/skill). If I may attempt a summary, Fury Critical raises the chance of criticals during Fury Stance by some percentage. Since a critical is simply the max damage you can output in your damage range, this ends up being not too useful unless your damage varies from, say 100 - 200. Again, read over Adelheid's posts, he has a lot more information.

As for S-ATK UP, it can be useful in a different sense. It can be used to help you meet equipment and Photon Art requirements. As a HUnewearl, I could invest in S-ATK Up and actually be able to use the 8 and 9 star weapons without requiring much else besides the base stat. Granted you have other ways of raising your S-ATK besides the S-ATK Up skill, such as raising an S-ATK mag, but it is one viable option.
Is it really? That's unfortunate. For the time being I'm investing my mag purely into S-ATK though so it will be useful for me, but I'll be picking up another mag later to have a more balanced distribution.

Adelheid
Jul 3, 2012, 02:46 PM
Right now, at lvl30/lvl99 char/mag level caps... there are weapons that the HUnewearl can't use with a level 99 S-ATK Mag. So S-ATK Talents are required.

This may not be the case at level 40, or level 100, or whatever. But you'll almost certainly need at least a little bit of S-ATK to get the best weapons....

Now consider that you may also need S-DEF/etc. to get the best armors... Now S-ATK talents are lookin' awesome because they'll let you reach the breakpoints for armor on your mag.

Now maybe at 40/100 you will still also need mag S-ATK to qualify for the best items... well that is fine too.

Basically S-ATK talents aren't necessarily good based on their direct contribution to damage, but rather that they can qualify you for the best weapons (and armor...) in the game.




Edit: Also could anyone be a pal and add up the race/gender/class stats and find a "stat total", maybe one without HP and one with HP. I just want to see if any particular class/gender/race is left out if we weigh all the statpoints with equal usefulness. I would but I'm about to sleep... 6am.

Sigmund
Jul 3, 2012, 03:28 PM
I've been digging for the source of those stats comparison picture I linked earlier and it seems to originate from the 2ch board. Original link (http://awabi.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/ogame3/1341319406/950)

At the same time, I found another wiki which seems to be more updated than the one on the first post: Link (http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?act=url&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.ca&sl=ja&tl=en&twu=1&u=http://wikiwiki.asia/pso2/index.php%3F%25A5%25CF%25A5%25F3%25A5%25BF%25A1%25 BC&usg=ALkJrhgfhIlMjMIdqHzHfOYIT5t92gdZ7A)
> Dat percentage increase in Auto-Mate Half Line, it can't be correct... can it?

I'll update the FAQ in a short while...

Carillon
Jul 3, 2012, 03:44 PM
weighing everything equally.. (total-without-hp/total-with-hp)
same order as the table, male the female.
...of coarse, stats aren't actually equally useful.

Hunter:
2847/3680 human
2842/3667
2843/3597 newman
2849/3595
2833/3682 cast
2829/3670

Ranger:
2790/3498 human
2794/3496
2800/3441 newman
2802/3436
2777/3499 cast
2782/3497

Force:
2818/3401 human
2833/3411
2832/3361 newman
2847/3369
2791/3385 cast
2792/3381

Rob2003ert
Jul 3, 2012, 03:50 PM
I've been digging for the source of those stats comparison picture I linked earlier and it seems to originate from the 2ch board. Original link (http://awabi.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/ogame3/1341319406/950)

At the same time, I found another wiki which seems to be more updated than the one on the first post: Link (http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?act=url&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.ca&sl=ja&tl=en&twu=1&u=http://wikiwiki.asia/pso2/index.php%3F%25A5%25CF%25A5%25F3%25A5%25BF%25A1%25 BC&usg=ALkJrhgfhIlMjMIdqHzHfOYIT5t92gdZ7A)
> Dat percentage increase in Auto-Mate Half Line, it can't be correct... can it?

I'll update the FAQ in a short while...

I wouldn't be surprised if it was correct. It was useless at 50%, especially given the high SP cost to get it that high. It's pretty decent at 100% I suppose, but it's still a heavy investment to make just to save a few seconds of popping a -mate, which often times you won't even need if you have a Force that uses Resta.

IndigoNovember
Jul 3, 2012, 05:53 PM
Hmm, the machine translation of the description for Just Counter says it works for "the first stage of a Photon Art or Attack". I thought somebody posted that Just Counter only applies to attacks?

As for Auto-Mate Half Line, sounds like a good skill to get if you solo a lot.

soulpimpwizzurd
Jul 3, 2012, 06:47 PM
Hmm, the machine translation of the description for Just Counter says it works for "the first stage of a Photon Art or Attack". I thought somebody posted that Just Counter only applies to attacks?

As for Auto-Mate Half Line, sounds like a good skill to get if you solo a lot.

yeah i had just counter in cbeta. it didn't turn photon arts into just photon arts. it only turned regular attack>just attack.

also, it was the only way to cancel the animation for a just guard. previously, after performing a just guard, your character was animation locked for ~1 second the same way it is after a regular guard that drains sp. they made it so you can instantly move any way you want after a just guard now though, which is the biggest reason why i don't see just guard worth getting. you no longer need it to cancel the animation after a just guard.

Sigmund
Jul 4, 2012, 01:16 AM
There's a quest from the HU guy giving us 5 SP points for the talent tree... what.

soulpimpwizzurd
Jul 4, 2012, 01:36 AM
There's a quest from the HU guy giving us 5 SP points for the talent tree... what.

qft

sexy ouza is sexy man. this totally changes the game dawg

Adelheid
Jul 4, 2012, 02:40 AM
weighing everything equally.. (total-without-hp/total-with-hp)
same order as the table, male the female.
...of coarse, stats aren't actually equally useful.

Hunter:
2847/3680 human
2842/3667
2843/3597 newman
2849/3595
2833/3682 cast
2829/3670

Ranger:
2790/3498 human
2794/3496
2800/3441 newman
2802/3436
2777/3499 cast
2782/3497

Force:
2818/3401 human
2833/3411
2832/3361 newman
2847/3369
2791/3385 cast
2792/3381



Thanks a bunch for that.

soulpimpwizzurd
Jul 4, 2012, 05:32 AM
for anybody wondering why they can't complete ouza's mission for +5 hunter skill points, you have to get the cute rappy kills and dark ragne kills with PARTISAN EQUIPPED.

Havoc1337
Jul 4, 2012, 05:58 AM
Hey Guys,

I'm new here, just started playing PSO2, so I wanted some input from more experienced players.

Now, I'm not new to the Hack/Slay genre, so I know my play style, but I'm not quite sure on my build.

Another thing upfront, since lvl cap is 40, does that mean I'll have 40 SP to spend at the end?

So now for my build: http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebIo4Nj4QqoIk
You'll notice I put a lot of points into S-Atk. I heard Just Attack only affects Normal Attacks and not Just PA's. Does the passive S-Atk boost give a bonus to PA's?
I'm usually better at evading than blocking, so I went for Step Attack and Step Advance.
Also HP UP > S-DEF UP? S-Def will only protect you from S... damage, but HP will last you in every case... I guess? I took sword gear just coz I like Swords :D


I thought about getting Fury Stance since I'm usually for not-taking-damage, but I read it only makes sense if you max Fury Critical, and Critical in this game is mostly pointless(only giving MaxDmg instead of 200+% and ignoring defense jadajada) But then there would be no more points for Step Advance etc. And I figure that would be vital if you already screw your ol' friend Defense so much.


help? :3

Adelheid
Jul 4, 2012, 06:58 AM
You'll have at least 45 SP at level 40 if you finish the quest they just introduced. Maybe more if there are yet more quests that we don't know of.

Fury stance is still good without Fury Critical.

goozilla
Jul 4, 2012, 06:59 AM
Hey Guys,

I'm new here, just started playing PSO2, so I wanted some input from more experienced players.

Now, I'm not new to the Hack/Slay genre, so I know my play style, but I'm not quite sure on my build.

Another thing upfront, since lvl cap is 40, does that mean I'll have 40 SP to spend at the end?

So now for my build: http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebIo4Nj4QqoIk
You'll notice I put a lot of points into S-Atk. I heard Just Attack only affects Normal Attacks and not Just PA's. Does the passive S-Atk boost give a bonus to PA's?
I'm usually better at evading than blocking, so I went for Step Attack and Step Advance.
Also HP UP > S-DEF UP? S-Def will only protect you from S... damage, but HP will last you in every case... I guess? I took sword gear just coz I like Swords :D


I thought about getting Fury Stance since I'm usually for not-taking-damage, but I read it only makes sense if you max Fury Critical, and Critical in this game is mostly pointless(only giving MaxDmg instead of 200+% and ignoring defense jadajada) But then there would be no more points for Step Advance etc. And I figure that would be vital if you already screw your ol' friend Defense so much.


help? :3

The thing about s-atk is that it only increases by 50 at rank 10. 50 isn't that noticeable. Rank 1 Fury stance does the exact same thing, sans -250 def. At rank 10, Fury Stance caps at +150/-200 and since you're all for the not getting hit thing, it'll suit your needs more.

http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebIoGAGDf4Qqof

Might be a suitable build. I took in consideration of how much you love your hp.

Adelheid
Jul 4, 2012, 07:12 AM
Still, remember that S-ATK may qualify you for the best equipment in the game.

soulpimpwizzurd
Jul 4, 2012, 08:56 AM
Still, remember that S-ATK may qualify you for the best equipment in the game.

indeed, s-atk might be a tipping factor if you're lazy+impatient with your mag. i see ability at this point as a rather useless stat. in terms of equipment/skill qualifying it is useless, and it doesn't actually increase your damage per say. it only allows you to equip sub units, but even the highest level sub units are easily equippable at a low lvl like 30.

What would REALLY be helpful is if someone knew the intended max lvl for mags. if it's 200 though, all you'd really have to do is make sure your mag has ~120 power to use the strongest weapon in the game... CURRENTLY. it might go up even more though when the game releases more weapons, but there's also the question:

will you even be able to hold such weapons? ha! that's the question i'll be wondering about at least.

tip: if you want to make a pure power mag, you'll have to make sure that nonsense stat ability doesn't rise. sure it's "beneficial" to all classes but it's really just not. you might as well bite the bullet and spend ~4 bucks on another mag that's force/range if you wanna use that kind of stuff.

monomates delete some ability. whenever your ability stat grows too high, just monomate your mag up. dw about the striking defense stat growing. it will delete itself easily enough as a side effect of just feeding it regular weapons that are s atk.

Adelheid
Jul 4, 2012, 09:00 AM
We don't know what is available at 40, but like I said, at 30 as a HUnewearl I was unable to get the best swords without getting a level 99 mag (The max level at the time) AND some S-ATK talents.

It may be the case that even with a max level mag at 40, there are some items for some races that need S-ATK talents. Or it may be that you need some S-DEF for your armors, so you might want to get S-ATK talents and a little bit of S-DEF on your mag.

If anyone knows the max level of mags, like deldelight8 said, it would be really helpful.

soulpimpwizzurd
Jul 4, 2012, 09:13 AM
We don't know what is available at 40, but like I said, at 30 as a HUnewearl I was unable to get the best swords without getting a level 99 mag (The max level at the time) AND some S-ATK talents.

It may be the case that even with a max level mag at 40, there are some items for some races that need S-ATK talents. Or it may be that you need some S-DEF for your armors, so you might want to get S-ATK talents and a little bit of S-DEF on your mag.

If anyone knows the max level of mags, like deldelight8 said, it would be really helpful.

yeah i'm pretty much positive you'll need sdef from mag if you want to equip hunter armors. however CERTAIN ARMORS DO CERTAIN THINGS, so i want to make sure i read through and try to translate their descriptions before i do so, or see if kion's already done so. there may be some broken armor that requires tech-def to use that reduces pp usage from photon arts by 5 points which is also stackable, loool. if anything i know that i want a clean mag that has at least 100+ s-atk with no ability, so at least that's mindless enough

THIS JUST IN KNUCKLE WEAPONS COMING OUT THIS FALL! THEY REQUIRE ABILITY STAT

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Havoc1337
Jul 4, 2012, 09:33 AM
Thanks Gozilla, that build looks quite nice. I'll have to put some thought into this :P

A noob question on the side, this may be the wrong place but, what is a mag?
And if I get one with +100 S-Atk I won't really need the skill ability for the best Sword?

IndigoNovember
Jul 4, 2012, 01:29 PM
How did you fare with S-DEF Adelheid? Apparently the highest stat requirement on units is currently 431. Would you recommend us HUnewearls take S-DEF Up into consideration alongside S-ATK Up? Or did it seem fine to not spend any SP in the skill? I want to know, so I can plan if I want my mag to have some S-DEF as well.

Adelheid
Jul 4, 2012, 01:37 PM
I don't think we're pushed enough for points to have to rate S-ATK talents or S-DEF talents higher than the other. So it seems to me that, should one need S-ATK or S-DEF from mags or talents, that one can choose which way around to do it.

IndigoNovember
Jul 4, 2012, 01:47 PM
That's good to know. Do you think we'll need to invest in S-DEF that much?

NabsTheCracker
Jul 4, 2012, 04:09 PM
Thoughts on http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?01HU!IOI2ebIoqnqqIbGDqnI3 ?
Picking up S-ATK because of potential gear restrictions
Wired Lance gear due to being my weapon of choice
Just Reversal due to being knocked down being a serious pain.

Though, also a possibility to need a defensive spec for gear / certain zones, the only problem I've had so far is fighting 2 Cats at once in the Frozen Tundra (Though, I did have basically a 0% chance of winning without a lot of deaths. Also given, I'm Level 30 currently just testing the waters.)

Adelheid
Jul 4, 2012, 04:38 PM
That's good to know. Do you think we'll need to invest in S-DEF that much?

It's impossible to tell without knowing the item reqs at 40, but I suspect we'll need a bunch of S-DEF either from MAGs or Talents.

word2own
Jul 4, 2012, 05:39 PM
Can Sword route offer as much dps as Partisan/Wired Lance? If spec'ing and playing offensively? Or is Sword meant to be played defensively (more than the other two weapon specs)?

NabsTheCracker
Jul 4, 2012, 06:10 PM
Can Sword route offer as much dps as Partisan/Wired Lance? If spec'ing and playing offensively? Or is Sword meant to be played defensively (more than the other two weapon specs)?

I don't feel like playing Sword would put you at a 'huge' disadvantage.
Maybe something like http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?01HU!IOI2IbInqnAdfGDqoIk ?

I personally don't know the real value of the Sword's damage or the JA Bonus talents, but I feel like since the Gear quickens your charge attacks getting the SATK is a bigger deal.

The biggest problem with that spec though, is obviously no Just Reversal. Depending on if you feel the talent necessary or not I'm sure it could work either way.

Although! Something to consider. Obviously no one has seen the higher tier stuff yet, so we may be forced into a bit more defensive built at some point regardless. But it would probably be fine if you're just playing to have some fun, and not to min/max.

Edit: In regards to:


Or is Sword meant to be played defensively (more than the other two weapon specs)?
I don't think any spec necessarily has to be played defensively. In an ideal world I'm sure you could have whichever weapon skill tree you wanted, but then another for when there might be a certain zone with a really hard to kill boss.
(In my case, I found double cats from the Tundra solo as a random Emergency Code Duel then Change Over, as a Level 30... I wish I would've had a defensive spec at the time.)

Havoc1337
Jul 4, 2012, 08:21 PM
Well I've decided to go for this build: http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?01HU!IOI2eoIonlGDGBIx

It might look a bit one-sided, going for all SATK but I want to get as much damage without sacrificing SDEF with a stance. Sword is just personal preference, I'm just as good with Chain Lance but I feel it's more of a situational weapon. With a Mag on mostly Ability I think I can get decent Critical and some more Min/Max.

What do you guys think, just plain stupid or might actually work?

sliferx94
Jul 4, 2012, 08:40 PM
Well im back again and i want some opinions on the build im working on

http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebkb4OjGKwObn

I wanted to reach automate talent because it might be useful, but i also dont know if its worth it or not going for HP Up3 and it shouldn't really be useful if its same as HPUp1-2 unless at higher levels i guess?

Im still building my character as a defensive swordsman (Lv21 now) ^^

IndigoNovember
Jul 5, 2012, 01:03 AM
Well im back again and i want some opinions on the build im working on

http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?00HU!IEebkb4OjGKwObn

I wanted to reach automate talent because it might be useful, but i also dont know if its worth it or not going for HP Up3 and it shouldn't really be useful if its same as HPUp1-2 unless at higher levels i guess?

Im still building my character as a defensive swordsman (Lv21 now) ^^

Auto-Mate Halfline is good if you don't have a consistent source of healing, like a friend who's playing Force. At level 10, it has a 100% activation rate, so make sure you bring along plenty of mates.

HP Up 1, 2, and 3 are all the same.

Also, your tree doesn't work for me. It says you are using the older version.

NoiseHERO
Jul 5, 2012, 04:14 AM
So by the time I hit 40... I'll have like 23 unspent skill points...

Grab a gear/stance? Or continue wating for fist...

Hmm...

sliferx94
Jul 5, 2012, 09:54 AM
Auto-Mate Halfline is good if you don't have a consistent source of healing, like a friend who's playing Force. At level 10, it has a 100% activation rate, so make sure you bring along plenty of mates.

HP Up 1, 2, and 3 are all the same.

Also, your tree doesn't work for me. It says you are using the older version.

Sorry here i did it again with the new version

http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?01HU!IOI2ebkb4OjGKAbbI

soulpimpwizzurd
Jul 5, 2012, 10:27 AM
So by the time I hit 40... I'll have like 23 unspent skill points...

Grab a gear/stance? Or continue wating for fist...

Hmm...

can you wait until fall? lol. LET US SEE YOUR LOYALTY TO FIST WEAPONS ROCK

IndigoNovember
Jul 5, 2012, 11:02 AM
Sorry here i did it again with the new version

http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?01HU!IOI2ebkb4OjGKAbbI

If you're planning on going Auto-Mate Halfline, you need the skill to be at least level 9. At 8 the chance of triggering is 62% whereas at 9 it's 80% and at 10 it's 100%. Any lower than 9 probably isn't worth getting the skill. Therefore I'd recommend taking some points out of HP UP 2 and some other skill, probably S-ATK UP 1, and putting it into Auto-Mate Halfline.

soulpimpwizzurd
Jul 5, 2012, 01:29 PM
imo if you stack your mag with at least 3 hp recovery A you're good. it works just like automate halfline. just make sure your mag has eaten or else it won't cast it for you.

btw just so people know, i think step advance got nerfed but i'm not sure when.

i swear it was .23 seconds, however now (thanks to ouza's 5 points) i know the growth pattern from 3+.

3=.11 4=.13 5=.14 6=.15 7=.16 8=.17 9=.18 10=.20

guard stance up seems to only increase in increments of 5 each level. at lvl 7 you get +35, there are no irregularities in growth pattern.

i don't know how it would be possible to accurately do so, but if someone could measure the exact time of how long hunter dodge lasts (both sword + wiredlance/partisan dodge) that'd be awesome. i have a feeling if you max step, .20 seconds is enough for almost the entirety of partisan/wired lance dodge. but maybe 3/4's of sword dodge.

Sigmund
Jul 6, 2012, 12:28 AM
Holy hell, Dolphinus' tendency to knock up mobs in the air is really annoying. Wish I could make it stop.

On another note, I'm about to max War Cry and test it - look back in a few days for some insights.

IndigoNovember
Jul 6, 2012, 12:41 AM
Holy hell, Dolphinus' tendency to knock up mobs in the air is really annoying. Wish I could make it stop.

On another note, I'm about to max War Cry and test it - look back in a few days for some insights.

That doesn't sound good. I'm pretty sure most of us will be getting that mag...

I look forward to your results with Warcry.

NekoXiu
Jul 6, 2012, 12:56 AM
HI, I'm new to this but here are some questions I have.

1. If someone mains partisan, and partisan can only charge from either waiting out the swing animation or from guarding, would it be wise for partisan to get just guard?

2. Also, does just guard block boss attacks? I realize that there are attacks that are unguardable.

3. Which other gear aside from partisan gear would benefit a partisan more, the sword or wirelance? I dont plan on getting all three.

4. @Adelheid, I saw your post about the gunblade. Do you still agree with that post after official release? If so, can you make a skill tree showing what you'll use your SP on?

Rob2003ert
Jul 6, 2012, 01:35 AM
1. Partisan is the worst weapon when it comes to guard cancelling attacks, you'll pretty much be dodging everything, so you can give Just Guard a miss no problem.
2. Yes, Just Guard blocks boss attacks too. 0 damage taken and reflects some damage back at the boss.
3. If you're going down the left side and getting Fury Stance anyway, you might as well grab Wire Lance Gear, getting Sword Gear would require investing in the right hand side of the tree, whereas Wire Lance will just take 1 extra SP since you're there already.

I'd like to second seeing your skill tree too Adelheid, I just watched this (http://youtu.be/8e0BRIzDKnU) video and it's made me want to give Gunslash another chance, the way that guy plays makes it look absolutely fantastic.

Adelheid
Jul 6, 2012, 05:41 AM
Rob2003ert: Awesome video, that is exactly how I fight Vol too! Dance Kick on his back Horn is awesome. And yeah you'll also notice jump dash canceling dashes in that video, it's very helpful. I do it a bit in my Caterdran video back at level 14 or so.

As for my skill tree... I'll probably be something like this at 40.

http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?01HU!IOI2ebIoqnGDfGDIbf

Left over points into JA Bonus 1 S-DEF (for armor reqs at 40) or Possibly into S-ATK 2 if I somehow need even more S-ATK at level 40 for the weapon requirements. I am wondering whether they'll have gunslashes with SATK reqs at lvl 40 like they did at 30...

I'm picking up sword gear just because sonic arrow does awesome DPS with gear and it's only 1 point for some spice in your playstyle, if you get bored of gunslashes for a while.


As for what I think about gunslashes, I still think they're possibly the highest single target DPS hunter weapon. But until we know more clearly how ability affects damage I would not recommend an ability mag or high ability req gunslashes (go for the high S-ATK req ones).

Cyclon
Jul 6, 2012, 05:47 AM
If you're planning on going Auto-Mate Halfline, you need the skill to be at least level 9. At 8 the chance of triggering is 62% whereas at 9 it's 80% and at 10 it's 100%. Any lower than 9 probably isn't worth getting the skill.

Well, you could still drop a single point in it to get a 20% chance, since you unlock it along with S-atk 2 anyway. 20% chance of auto-healing for one point seems decent to me.
But if you're planning on putting more than one, then yes, you should definitely put at least 8 points in it.

IamIMMORTAL
Jul 6, 2012, 07:09 AM
at this time, I still havent found what is best build for me yet,

I want doing dps and also can taking damage, and going with sword, any one have a recomement ?

Arika
Jul 6, 2012, 07:43 AM
Want to request more test on

Q: Does JA Bonus 1/2 affects the damage of Photon Arts?
A: No, the modifier only increases the damage of your normal attacks.
From the lastest official guide that release together at the real launch of the game. It says that "JA advance from HU, effect everything that is a result of JA but technique"

Which mean it also affect PA too. (Official guide whole book, never mix up the word of PA and technique. so I think it meant only tech from FO not included.)

And now, when I look at JP wiki again here : http://wikiwiki.asia/pso2/index.php?%A5%B3%A5%E1%A5%F3%A5%C8%2F%A5%CF%A5%F3% A5%BF%A1%BC

They also use the same description on the official guide that say "it affect everything from JA but tech "
(They removed the old word about it only affect normal attack in the comment section)

So I m pretty sure that with all the edited in the page, it mean that it affect the PA boost. However, it is unsure how much does it boost.

Normal attack = 100% damage, so JA advance make it 101% damage at lv 1.
PA already do 500% damage, so I wonder if JA advance will make it 505% damage (x1.01), or 501% damage. (+1%)


If anybody have a character with high "skill/ability" build up. Please test this, because your char will have less random variance and easier to test.

Adelheid
Jul 6, 2012, 09:00 AM
Hmm, I could test that.

If JA Bonus works on PAs then they're probably the best talents in the game. I'm surprised I didn't notice that wording beforehand.

Sigmund
Jul 6, 2012, 09:02 AM
Why would they mention techniques when Hunters can't even use them, that was really confusing. I'll remove that FAQ until we can confirm its effect, thanks for mentioning it.

Slidikins
Jul 6, 2012, 09:06 AM
Why would they mention techniques when Hunters can't even use them, that was really confusing. I'll remove that FAQ until we can confirm its effect, thanks for mentioning it.

Aren't they planning on adding classes later on? There might a hybrid that can use Techs in the making. Who really knows what's in store...

Adelheid
Jul 6, 2012, 09:14 AM
Indeed, but then it always struck me as strange that they wouldn't affect PAs since everything else in the tree are just straight buffs to stuff.




I just tested it, and JA Boost 1 and 2 definitely affect Photon Arts as well.

Meaning

http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?01HU!IOI2ebIoqnGKcA6

Taking out points from JA2+Gears or taking some from JA2 for extra S-ATK is probably the best DPS you can get at 40.


Also, they are direct damage boosts. JAs that do 100 will do 110 with 10% JA Boost. JA PBs that do 500 Damage will do 550 Damage with 10% JA Boost.


One thing I didn't check was whether JA1+JA2 = 120% or whether JA1+JA2 = 122% (ie, whether they add or multiply). But in any case, they're probably the best talents. But, if it's multiplicatively then it's better to level them up evenly... IE. lvl 10 JA2 + lvl 6 JA2 is worse than Lv 8 JA1 + Lv 8 JA2.



Time to buy more AC.

Sigmund
Jul 6, 2012, 09:53 AM
Out of curiosity, how did you test it this time?

gigawuts
Jul 6, 2012, 09:53 AM
I'd be interested in seeing whether it's added or multiplied, down the road those will have two different implications.

Also, here's a relevant thread on the use of ability: http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=197532

So it seems fury critical skips the ability check and sends you straight to the max damage - I knew it would be useful if you had a high spread, but I wasn't sure how many ability points would be needed to reduce the spread enough to negate the difference. This is indeed useful if you're too busy raising your s-atk to raise your ability to match your weapon's s-atk (which, for hunters, is a fair amount).

Sounds like I'm investing in fury critical.

Adelheid
Jul 6, 2012, 10:05 AM
I have two talent trees right now. One looks like this:

http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?01HU!IFI2ebIoqnGR2N6

The other looks like this:

http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?01HU!IFI2ebIoqnGDfDqIbf

Because there is a difference in S-ATK, I used a gunslash and use the charge shot range PA (thus using my R-ATK stat, which was the same between both builds), except I didn't charge it to the first stage, I just tapped it and JA'd it.
With the +4 JA1 and +10 JA2 talents did about (if my memory serves me correct) 205 critical damage on a monkey's head with a JA tapped charge shot. With +3 JA1 and +0 JA2 talents I did about 189 critical or so.

I used critical damages because there is no variance in them. That being said I could tell the average damage was lower too. I didn't write the numbers down, and obviously 189*1.11 = 209, but like I said I just quickly tested it so the numbers I've remembered here are probably a few points off.

I might be able to make a video if needed but it's a pain, especially with something like charge shot since it takes ages to crit.




Edit: I just quickly tested whether having ability higher than your weapon damage makes you always do max: It doesn't.



Edit2: With the revelation of how JA1/2 works the important question for Fury Critical is now this:

Is your damage range equal to your average damage? If yes, then 10 Fury Critical is worth exactly 10 JA1 or JA2 ONLY if JA1 and JA2 don't multiply (which I think they do), assuming you JA -all the time-.

IamIMMORTAL
Jul 6, 2012, 10:16 AM
If I like sword only, what build should I be play ? I want do much dps and also taking damage.

Adelheid
Jul 6, 2012, 10:19 AM
It's honestly hard to say without comparing Stat @ 40 tables to whatever new weapons come out between 30 and 40.

Sigmund
Jul 6, 2012, 10:22 AM
No need for a video, just wanted to know the test process.

Anyhow, I believe that thread says that having abiity higher than the ATK of your weapon reduces the damage range considerably, not making it always hit max damage.

In a single night, the left talent tree suddenly got a lot more appealing - they ought to do more periodic maintenance. =P

Adelheid
Jul 6, 2012, 10:28 AM
Sigmund: I didn't notice a difference in damage ranges either, but I have not tested it thoroughly.

gigawuts
Jul 6, 2012, 10:31 AM
I have two talent trees right now. One looks like this:

http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?01HU!IFI2ebIoqnGR2N6

The other looks like this:

http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/hunter.html?01HU!IFI2ebIoqnGDfDqIbf

Because there is a difference in S-ATK, I used a gunslash and use the charge shot range PA (thus using my R-ATK stat, which was the same between both builds), except I didn't charge it to the first stage, I just tapped it and JA'd it.
With the +4 JA1 and +10 JA2 talents did about (if my memory serves me correct) 205 critical damage on a monkey's head with a JA tapped charge shot. With +3 JA1 and +0 JA2 talents I did about 189 critical or so.

I used critical damages because there is no variance in them. That being said I could tell the average damage was lower too. I didn't write the numbers down, and obviously 189*1.11 = 209, but like I said I just quickly tested it so the numbers I've remembered here are probably a few points off.

I might be able to make a video if needed but it's a pain, especially with something like charge shot since it takes ages to crit.




Edit: I just quickly tested whether having ability higher than your weapon damage makes you always do max: It doesn't.



Edit2: With the revelation of how JA1/2 works the important question for Fury Critical is now this:

Is your damage range equal to your average damage? If yes, then 10 Fury Critical is worth exactly 10 JA1 or JA2 ONLY if JA1 and JA2 don't multiply (which I think they do), assuming you JA -all the time-.

I doubt it raises it to the hard cap, but I'm sure it approaches it on some arbitrary curve towards infinity. Do weapons add ability? I have yet to actually try to decipher the weapon info screen, so I don't actually know yet.

I'm feeling like there's far more to this than just X/Y or X-Y. PSO1's accuracy with ATA/EVP was a bit more complex than subtraction or division. I'd feel comfortable acting under the assumption that it's set up specifically so that unless you have some insanely high ability stat, like 10k, you'll always get around 20% damage spread.



For balance my gripe with fury critical is that when you most need it, e.g. against the strongest enemies that you need to kill as fast as possible, you're also probably going to need defense on your side. If you can evade/block attacks consistently it's fine, but it's easier to say you'll pratically always get just attacks than it is to say you'll always have fury stance on. It IS a good amount of gain for the SP, compared to JA boost 1/2, though.

I'm genuinely caught between choices here, which means either they did a very bad job of balancing or a fairly good one. For the time being I'm leaning towards the latter - fury critical sounds best when you're familiar with an area, JA sounds best when you're not. It compares well with the basic fury stance skill vs. s-atk up, actually.

edit: I think when I reach the current level cap I'll stop changing my S-ATK and start making a note of all my crit damage against a variety of enemies, while tinkering with my ability. This is the kind of thing that keeps me interested in the long term, inquiring minds and the like.

Adelheid
Jul 6, 2012, 10:42 AM
Tested on yellow monkies, using the first attack only, no fury stance.

@310 Ability (240 Base + 70 Ability Mag)
91-127 332 Gunslash (アルバシザー With +30 S-ATK Affix) No Element Advantage over target mobs.
81-117 302 Gunslash (アルバシザー with no affix) No Element Advantage over target mobs.

Note that these may not be the true ranges, as I was only hitting monkies for a few minutes, but they were the lowest damage hits I could find (and the high end damage were crits).

As you can see, they're both the exact same damage ranges (30 damage), although the percentage range for the 302 weapon was lower...

Personally I suspect damage ranges are either intrinsic to the weapon, or calculated from weapon S-ATK rather than total S-ATK.



Edit: That being said, it may be that not every point in the damage spread is equally likely (I only saw 91/81 once, whereas I saw a few 93/83s...) and Ability may push the curve up.