Lightning Force

[eros124797]

So Ive read that fire is the way to go damage wise, But how viable is lightning in comparison to fire, damage wise.

[Darki]

Lightning is slower and does less damage, as the fire skilltree boosts damage for charged techs and reduces charge time. What lightning does is to reduce the PP cost of the techs, and increase your PP pool. Also, it increases the damage of JA techs, which you should be doing all the time.

Damage wise it depends. Fire techs will be faster and do more damage, but you'll burn your PP fast and you'll have to wait and restore PP with normal attacks more than often. Lightning techs will allow you to chain more of them without running out of PP, which reduces the time wasted recovering it and doing crappy damage.

Realistically, fire is better, bassically because there are more enemies weak to fire than lightning, but lightning is not that bad, compared to ice, for example, which is really useless.

[Dextro]

From personal experience with both:

Fire techs are about dealing as much burst damage as possible in a short space of time, with a focus on single-targets and weak points.
While the purpose of Lightning techs is sustained damage output against a single target, or effective crowd control against hordes of enemies without running out of pp.

Fire Techs absolutely dominate over 50% of the enemies in the game, including every current boss but Tranmizer.
For any weak point you can lock-on to, Rafoie will turn that enemy into a chewtoy.
For any weak point you can't lock-on to, manual aim with Foie has that covered.

For anything that has a weakness to Lightning, or that has no accessible weakness at all (such as the Light-based enemies in FC, which have a f--kload of hp), Bolt Techs with their lowered pp cost will pull ahead in damage and utility.
You also have better access to Gizonde - the best crowd-control tech in the game.

[Carillon]

lightning spells have an inherently low charge time and high base power (except gizonde) in exchange for high cost. Bolt save reduces the PP cost so much they become the cheapest techs in the game.

most of them have extra hurdles to work with, however.
Zonde: can only hit enemys close to the ground. it's also unable to zap enemies on the other side of obstacles, like pillars etc.
RaZonde: has a hilariously tiny aoe. it gets bigger if you're higher in the air, but you still need to be practically on top of anything you want to hit with it.
SaZonde: applies a debuff that doesn't seem to start doing any damage until they're hit by another lightnng tech.

and then there's GiZonde. GiZonde charges slower than the other techs, and isn't as strong, but it hits everything. it's the best trash wiping tech in the game.

also, shock is a pretty neat status. every so often it'll knock affected mobs down.

Zonde/RaZonde/SaZonde are pretty much useless until you have high bolt save, but GiZonde is always good.

[Darki]

The best suggestion would probably be, when we get the new level cap and 10 more skillpoints, it's just to invest in both.

I was actually thinking that a skilltree that looks like this (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/force.html?01FO!IOI2kbI22XjbncAIk) would probably be interesting to play with at that time.

[gigawuts]

With lightning you get more damage per PP, I believe. Fire is just best for DPS.

Go with what you like, after something like two minutes it really doesn't make a big difference.

I plan on getting bolt PP save 10 and then pooling the rest of my PP into fire.

[Darki]

lightning spells have an inherently low charge time and high base power (except gizonde) in exchange for high cost. Bolt save reduces the PP cost so much they become the cheapest techs in the game.

most of them have extra hurdles to work with, however.

Zonde: can only hit enemys close to the ground. it's also unable to zap enemies on the other side of obstacles, like pillars etc.
RaZonde: has a hilariously tiny aoe. it gets bigger if you're higher in the air, but you still need to be practically on top of anything you want to hit with it.
SaZonde: applies a debuff that doesn't seem to start doing any damage until they're hit by another lightnng tech.

and then there's GiZonde. GiZonde charges slower than the other techs, and isn't as strong, but it hits everything. it's the best trash wiping tech in the game.

also, shock is a pretty neat status. every so often it'll knock affected mobs down.

Zonde/RaZonde/SaZonde are pretty much useless until you have high bolt save, but GiZonde is always good.

I think you got the names wrong. Gizonde is the AoE one, and Razonde is the "chain lightning" tech. Personally I don't know why you consider it not as astrong. It does almost as much damage as Zonde and you can hit pretty much everything on screen with it.

[gigawuts]

Erm, no I think you have them backwards :P Gizonde is the mid level tech that leaps between multiple enemies, Razonde is the one you cast from above and strikes the ground (or anything on the way to the ground, like maybe an enemy).

The issue with Gizonde is its very short range. If you're up close, great! If you're not you might hit only one thing.

[Darki]

Dafuq?

My PS-sense has been defied, then. I though the standard naming was "gi-" for the AoE "me-at-the-center" techs and "ra-" for the targetted mid-range AoE techs. I was so convinced of that that I didn't even bother reading the names when I set them on my palettes. <_<

I don't think Gizonde then, has that short range. It has definitely more range than having to be between the monsters to throw a Gigrants, Gibarta or Gifoie. Of course it has much less range than Rafoie, but then, we're talking about two different uses. Maybe it's just that I like to be close and personal to my enemies so I can smack them a good one for PP and I don't really care.

The one I don't really see useful is Razonde, then. I'm pretty convinced that they made that PA specifically so we use it with a talis flung high up in the air so it covers a wide area, but that requires TPS mode and except Foie most techs are better used with auto lock-on than aiming.

[gigawuts]

Oh, nope! The Foie tree was actually the odd one out there. The general template I felt it stuck to was simple techs (foie/barta/zonde) were single-target (with barta penetrating), normal techs (gi-) were for crowds, and hard techs (ra-) were for their special take on damage. In the case of razonde and rabarta that meant being very close, but having a high chance to apply their status effect too. Rafoie had no status effect so instead got range, I guess.

That changed with 20+ techs though, when simple techs sensibly became the high damage ones, due to still hitting one target.

Foie just had the AOE as its own version of crowd control, but due to its cooldown after casting it was kind of suicide to be actually surrounded when casting it.

That's all PSO, I don't remember much of PSU's techs but I believe it roughly stuck to the template before massively expanding on it.

[NoiseHERO]

I'm a lightning fo.

[Dextro]

I'm a lightning fo.

lol thanks for your input, Rock :-D

[Dammy]

lightning is better to killing alot of enemies that are far away from each other(pse burst) while fire is better to killing bosses(and burn works for some of them!) and close clustered enemies
the more hp enemy has the better fire is, due to burn
thats from my experience of playing lightning/fire hybrid
on my new force i did fire tree only, waiting for info on new techs/classes/balance changes

[UnLucky]

The best suggestion would probably be, when we get the new level cap and 10 more skillpoints, it's just to invest in both.

I was actually thinking that a skilltree that looks like this (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/force.html?01FO!IOI2kbI22XjbncAIk) would probably be interesting to play with at that time.

lv50 pure bolt tree (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/force.html?01FO!IOI2kbI22SIkfcAcAf)

[Darki]

But that bould be... I dunno. I see that skilltree and I think it's sad that you had to spend so many points in the fire tree when you're aiming for a lightning tree. I'd say it'd be better to try to get the best of both. And having an almost 25% extra boost in casting fire techs (maxing flame tech S charge instead of Bolt Mastery) for me is more appealing than getting just a 10% damage boost in lightning techs (doing the opposite).

[UnLucky]

Just as long as you get Charge Advance over JA since it's strictly better. If you take all three, you're already at 55 SP with no masteries, Flame S Charge, nor Bolt PP Save.

If you're getting the faster casting skill, you may as well get fire mastery and not use bolt techs at all :V

If you do this (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/force.html?01FO!IOI2kbIk2XjcAcAf) you lose 10% for all spells (including Resta), but gain 11% for both fire and bolt.

[Quebe_Lae]

I love being a lightning force. It's so easy to attack groups, even with stragglers here and there. With all my lighting tree maxed, zonde usually out damages my foie even on enemies weak to them, with the exception of boosted enemies and King Yeti.

Less pp consumption also means more pp to spare for heals and buffs, ideally.

[TheAstarion]

http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/force.html?01FO!IOI24OI2eFIkfbAcAf My current build.

I derp'd and spent one extra point in bolt mastery. It works really well, for the most part; with a PP drink I rarely run out of PP using Gizonde in a fight. And with fire techs to back me up, I feel like I'm literally built for Lilipa missions.

Fire tree is best tree, even ignoring the fire techs though. PP Charge Revival is probably the single best skill point in the game for a Force, and tech charge advance gives 20% bonus with 20 points invested in it to pretty much all techs (since not charging is not a real option). This 20% bonus will stay relevant at higher levels.

I went for the bolt saver first, and was loving it... until I hit lv30, got my PP charge revival skill pip finally... and wished I'd have done that first.

My lowbie character force went down Fire tree first and he's probably more effective level-for-level than my main character was.

[Omega-z]

Fire at the moment is better at Burst DPS being on oppsite sides of the pool. But when enough SP comes into play Lightning is higher but is slower with it. But at the end the rate is the same except for the first Burst. Fire will make up for it with burn. Just wait for a Ra Foie Nerf in the future. Oh, lol Sa Zonde Weak? lol ...... the only one hard to use is Ra Zonde, you'll be surprised how strong it really is. But wondering how the new 3 tech type's will fair with the Techer tree.

[Darki]

Just as long as you get Charge Advance over JA since it's strictly better. If you take all three, you're already at 55 SP with no masteries, Flame S Charge, nor Bolt PP Save.

I'm sorry, but why is Charge Advance better than Tech JA bonus? They both give the exact same bonus. +1% extra per level. The only difference is that one just works when you charge, and the other one just works when you JA, and you should be doing both things anyways.

I wasn't talking about getting all the three anyways, just that if you plan on getting Charge PP Revival, it doesn't matter which one we get.


If you're getting the faster casting skill, you may as well get fire mastery and not use bolt techs at all :V

Well, by that mindset we could say that you may as well get a fire build and not use bolt techs at all anyways, since they'll be more damaging in any case. :V


If you do this (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/force.html?01FO!IOI2kbIk2XjcAcAf) you lose 10% for all spells (including Resta), but gain 11% for both fire and bolt.

So you sacrifice a 10% extra damage for light and ice techs just for a 1% extra damage on flame and bolt? Well if it works for you. But for me it's not worth it.

[gigawuts]

Not to mention that if it's multiplied you actually lose .11% instead.

[UnLucky]

I'm sorry, but why is Charge Advance better than Tech JA bonus? They both give the exact same bonus. +1% extra per level. The only difference is that one just works when you charge, and the other one just works when you JA, and you should be doing both things anyways.
Twofold actually.

How many people JA Resta?

And JAs are easier to miss and not as punishing when you do. If you fail the timing or open with the tech first, you lose a small bonus. If you fail to fully charge, it doesn't matter if you had +100% Tech JA Advance, the tech is garbage. Yes, I know, ideal world and all, but it's not unheard of to miss once in a while, and priority should be on charging.

As for the other stuff, it's just me putting my thoughts out there. Always a good idea to think about your own playstyle first. Me, I stopped using light techs when I could cast two fire ones in the same amount of time. And I regret wasting a point in Ice Mastery because ice techs are slow, an uncommon weakness, and the damage bonus from targeting weaknesses isn't substantial (yet?). Trying to keep your options open just makes your Rafoie weaker, classic problem.

[Carillon]

How many people JA Resta?


you can't, iirc.

[Darki]

Twofold actually.

How many people JA Resta?

Resta is not affected by JA, actually (as far as I know, no support tech is). But that's not really that much of a deal. ¿How much better does Resta get for that bonus? My Resta numbers never reached 200 HP per tick. If for you an increase of ~15 HP in your heals is that much, I respect that but is not that important for me.


And JAs are easier to miss and not as punishing when you do. If you fail the timing or open with the tech first, you lose a small bonus. If you fail to fully charge, it doesn't matter if you had +100% Tech JA Advance, the tech is garbage. Yes, I know, ideal world and all, but it's not unheard of to miss once in a while, and priority should be on charging.

Of course. But in the real world you should try to encourage yourself to do it the best way, and striking the JA correctly is not that difficult. We´re not talking about, I don't know, timing the Step dodge perfectly (which is hard as fuck as you don't have any visual or sound aid as you have for JAs).


As for the other stuff, it's just me putting my thoughts out there. Always a good idea to think about your own playstyle first. Me, I stopped using light techs when I could cast two fire ones in the same amount of time. And I regret wasting a point in Ice Mastery because ice techs are slow, an uncommon weakness, and the damage bonus from targeting weaknesses isn't substantial (yet?). Trying to keep your options open just makes your Rafoie weaker, classic problem.

Well, but as I said we get to the same idea. This thread is about lightning techs, Of course the correct answer for effectiveness is just "go fire skilltree", but we all know that. In my case I like using all techs.

[UnLucky]

Resta is not affected by JA, actually (as far as I know, no support tech is). But that's not really that much of a deal. ¿How much better does Resta get for that bonus?
Pretty sure it's affected by JA and Charge Advance skills. Not the normal JA bonus, though. Just the 1-10%

Of course. But in the real world you should try to encourage yourself to do it the best way, and striking the JA correctly is not that difficult.
Yeah, I know it's minor, but it's still an advantage in my eyes. The skills give the same boost, and you will always have access to Charge Advance, but it's ever so slightly better sometimes so just take it instead.

Well, but as I said we get to the same idea. This thread is about lightning techs, Of course the correct answer for effectiveness is just "go fire skilltree", but we all know that. In my case I like using all techs.
Yeah, I like lightning techs. Only thing you need is PP Save and perhaps max Bolt Mastery if you want to main it. Hence my first suggestion.

[Darki]

Pretty sure it's affected by JA and Charge Advance skills. Not the normal JA bonus, though. Just the 1-10%

Are you sure?

I've never seen any noticeable increase in healing by JA'ing Resta, and I do it more than often as I usually chain Resta with my attacks when I need it (and I'm so used to the JA tune that I do it unconsciously with everything).

Charging does, that's for sure, I uaually charge it when I'm in a tight moment and use with without charge when I just need to recover a tiny bit of HP.

[Dextro]

Maxed Tech Charge Adv 1&2 will add maybe 40(?) additional health per resta tick for the average player.
It's all relative to how much T-Atk you already have really.

There's 0 benefits to choosing JA Charge Adv. over Tech Charge Adv.
There's the benefit of more leniency and a boost to Resta by picking Tech Charge Adv.

You shouldn't ever miss a Charge, but it's possible to miss a JA frame.
If you miss that JA frame, you lose the additional JA damage, plus the additional <10%.
Does it matter how they're split? No...not really. It's just a safety cushion and a situational heal bonus.

The only benefit I can see of taking the JA Charge route is if the skill tree is expanded and there's something amazing right underneath it. But this might work both ways....so...whatever.

[HFlowen]

I use JA bonus because sometimes I get bored and just want to toss out a bunch of rapid fire uncharged techs.

Force is so damn brainless to play anyway. Not like taking three blasts of rafoie instead of two to kill that dagan is gonna matter much unless you're obsessive compulsive or something.

Pick the skills that are the most fun for you.

[Dextro]

Oh actually, that reminds me, it'd be great for tossing a few uncharged Sazondes out.

[HFlowen]

Oh actually, that reminds me, it'd be great for tossing a few uncharged Sazondes out.

I do this a lot. I don't remember if sazonde is boosted from JAs though.

[kkow]

so the general consensus is that charge pp revival is necessary? seems a shame i have to waste so many points in another tree...

[Darki]

Charge PP revival is a blessing to the Lightning build, I'd even say, now that I tried it, that it's much more useful for it than for the fire techs... By the time you've charged a tech you've already recovered half the PP it used, and you can even time the release so the PP ussage is minimal.

In any case, is not that the lightning tree has that much to offer. As was stated previously, Tech JA Bonus has pretty much the same effect as Tech Charge Advance, with the additional benefit of powering up your Resta. Unless you wanna get some points in PP Up 2 there's nothing else to level up there (and personally, i'd prefer to invest skillpoints on stuff other than stat increases. You can raise those with equipement, affixes and mag), so it'd be wiser to go with a hybrid build, half fire and half lightning, at least to benefit for the non-elemental charge-enhancing skills from the fire side, than going all out lightnng.

For example, in october when we'll be getting a cap raise, if you had gone full lightning you would hace access only to one Tech JA bonus, while just by getting Charge PP revival, you'd have access to the two Tech Charge Advance skills.

[gigawuts]

Charge PP Revival is good for all techs, but particularly the ones where you spend more time charging. The delay for PP to recharge itself after firing off any PA or tech is, I don't know, let's say .25 seconds. If you have zonde's PP save maxed out and foie's charge time maxed out, you're firing off twice as many foie in that time. And that means you're facing twice as many cooldowns timers in total.

Foie actually benefits the least of all techs from PP revival. Funny, eh? But then you can just get out a gunslash and make up the difference, so...meh.

Go with what you like. I'm doing foie charge time 10 AND bolt PP save 10, because I like them both.

[Darki]

Yeah I did that too. A couple days ago I decided to get a second skilltree to try this (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/force.html?01FO!IOI2kbI22XjbncAf) build, and I'm really satisfied with it.