PSO2 Gunner Stuff Discussion ™ [Archive]

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Sp-24

Sep 14, 2012, 07:30 PM

Updating the OP, since it's way overdue, and nobody seemed to bother to take over. I wanted to read the discussion and base the edit on the community's consensus on all things Gunner, but it's 2000 posts long, holy crap. So let's just assume I know better than all of you.

Since Hunter subclassing had been severely nerfed, I'm writing mostly from the Gunner/Ranger's perspective.

Hopefully at least one of the two is up to date:
http://pso2-skill.pwnedgalaxy.net/skillcalc.php
http://pso2skillsimulator.com/simulator/

Hopefully helpful stuff

Selphia (http://www.pso-world.com/forums/member.php?u=68980)'s tl;dr Gunner guide:
[spoiler-box]https://worldsojourner.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/gunnercore2.jpg[/spoiler-box]

Class combinations

Subclasses for Gunner
[spoiler-box]Gunner/Hunter
Hunter is a somewhat viable subclass for Gunner. Hunter's Fury Stance branch offers a 1.6 damage modifier that doesn't require much setup for 52 SP, and there is a good selection of defensive skills that can improve your survivability, such as Massive Hunter, Flash Guard, Iron Will, the slightly more useful Automate Halfline and possibly Absorption.

Gunner/Fighter
Despite Fighter's tree being made of damage modifiers, you may have a hard time finding something that suits you, as they are all very conditional. Brave Stance skills provide a 1.5 damage modifier when you attack an enemy from the front. It's lower than Wise Stance's 1.755, but you are much more likely to end up face-to-face with your enemy, plus most of them have their weak spots on the front as well. PP Slayer is something you are likely to trigger very often with how fast certain PAs burn your PP, and its +200 R-ATK can be quite helpful. Staying just below the 50% mark shouldn't be a problem with Attack PP Restorate, either. Adrenaline might also be worth taking so that you get to keep your buffs for longer.
On the other hand, while Halfline and Deadline Slayer provide +100 and +150 R-ATK bonuses, respectively, managing your HP without Limit Break can be very troublesome, plus they get in the way of Perfect Keeper. Similarly, status effects are too much of a hassle to use Chase Advance Plus. Tech Arts JA Bonus gives you a 1.15 damage modifier if you don't spam the same PA. But, with how most of Gunner's PAs don't work well together, and weapon actions such as S-Roll interrupt this skill, it is hardly worth it.

Gunner/Ranger
Perhaps the best subclass for Gunner, it offers a massive 2.4 ranged damage modifier with its basic skills (Weak Hit Advance and Standing Snipe), grants access to the invaluable Weak Bullet and allows you to easily recover PP with either Killing Bonus for automatic recovery while mobbing or with Tactics Trap and Stun Grenade (for mobs and bosses), Gravity Bomb (small mobs and certain bosses only) or Upper Trap (only viable against some bosses and really slow mobs). A carefully aimed Gravity Bomb can recover your entire PP gauge, but using traps requires you to interrupt your attacks.
Among other useful Ranger skills are Moving Snipe, which powers up your attacks when moving and a for second after you stop (so, basically, right until Standing Snipe kicks in) and Weak Hit Blast Bonus, which lets you charge your PB faster. Power Bullet and PP Save Bullet are good options if you find yourself running around with a loaded WB often, though you might consider just playing Ranger then. And if you get your hands on a launcher that Gunner can use, you can enjoy its fun, but barely useful melee PAs and may consider picking up Jellen Shot for support.

Gunner/Force
If the shortage of T-ATK machineguns and complete absence of good ones among them isn't enough of a clue, Gunner and Force simply don't mix. None of Force skills help Gunner's playstyle, with the notable exception of PP Up 1 and 2, but Techer has those as well. However, it is possible to use High Time, Perfect Keeper and Aerial Advance to slightly improve your tech damage and can power up your Zanverse. When in a party, you can also use Chain Trigger to boost your hard-hitting techs, though keep in mind that they still won't be that strong with this class choice. Carefully timed Ilbarta or Namegid are still a possibility, but those are pretty much your only tricks.

Gunner/Techer
The few things that help Gunner in Techer's skill tree are Element Weak Hit, PP Restorate and possibly PP Up. Support techniques aren't very powerful without the Techer's main class skills, though they are still there. PP Convert could have been useful, if anything above level 5 didn't take away your Perfect Keeper bonus. You can also grab Reverse Bonus and humiliate people that you revive with your puny Shifta and Deband. With some Wind Mastery and Gunner's damage modifiers, you can also have a very powerful Zanverse.

Gunner/Braver
Braver doesn't offer Gunner much. Average and Weak Stances are the watered down versions of Hunter and Ranger subclasses, respectively, that you can switch between at will. It's even worse now that S-Roll JA Bonus isn't overpowered anymore and there's no reason to bank on Stance Charge skills to use with Heel Stab. Quick Mate and Just Reversal Cover can be of some help if you don't use Automate Deadline. Attack Advance can power up your normal shots and S-Roll attack, but not S-Roll Arts. Not sure if it affects Dive Roll Shoot.

Gunner/Bouncer
A melee fighter/support caster is a surprisingly good subclass for Gunner, even if far from the best. Shifta Air Attack Boost helps, with how many of Gunner's PAs can and should be used in the air, though you do have to recast that thing every minute. Critical Field can be sort of helpful when dealing with damage variance. Bouncer's stances, particularly Elemental Stance if you don't want to rely on breakables, aren't the easiest to use, but they are still very handy.
PP is an issue for Gunner, so Bouncer's plethora of PP-recovering skills are worth noting. If you have no trouble using Elemental Stance, Elemental PP Restorate Field is nice as well. Deband Attack PP Restorate isn't too bad, either, but is a bit of a hassle to use propely and often. You may also consider getting Just Reversal PP Gain and then getting your ass kicked every once in a while for even more PP.
You may also grab Field Remain, so that others can benefit from your useless support. Craft Mastery helps your survivability with extended units, and powers up extended weapons such as Pandora Extreme for when you want a devastating Chain Finish, or Blocker Bread™ for a 60 R-ATK stronger Satellite Aim.
[/spoiler-box]

Skills

[spoiler-box]Twin Machinegun Gear (ツインマシンガンギア)
It's a heat gauge (so it goes down over time) thing that boosts your damage up to 1.3 times if you don't get hit and keep attacking. Pretty much a must have it you are seen anywhere near a machinegun.

You can buy this skill in Challenge Quest if you plan to focus on machineguns for the duration of the run.

Chain Trigger (チェイントリガー)
Everybody knows how it works by now, but let's go over this anyway.

When you activate Chain Trigger, next normal attack or uncharged technique that you do will leave a blue "target" of sorts on the spot that you hit. That target has a chain counter next to it. When you hit the spot with a normal attack or technique, or when other party members hit it with anything, the chain counter will go up by one for every hit. Any PA or charged technique that you, and only you, use on the target spot "finishes" the chain, which makes the target glow yellow and makes any PAs you touch it with deal x2-x5 damage, depending on the chain number, for the next few seconds. Chain counter can go up to 100 (101 with Twice Chain shenanigans), and it gets progressively harder to keep the chain active, since it wears off faster as numbers go higher. This skill works with any weapon, and switching weapons while there is an active chain won't affect it.

Investing skill points into Chain Trigger doesn't change anything but improve its recast time, from 2,5 minutes to just one minute.

You can buy this skill in Challenge Quest at level 10 right before the Final Mission for 50 grinders. I'm not sure what will you be up against there, but I'm assuming that Chain Trigger would be helpful.

Chain Finish (チェインフィニッシュ)
Further increases the power of "finishing" PAs and techniques, multiplying their damage by up to 1.35.

Twice Chain (トワイスチェイン)
Makes building up chain count exactly two times less of a pain if you use machineguns, since every hit will bump the chain counter by 2 instead of 1. With this skill, one full normal attack combo brings chain trigger to x3 damage modifier, significantly increasing Chain Trigger's usability.

Chain Finish Bonus (チェインFボーナス)
Shortens Chain Trigger's cooldown based on how high was your chain count when you successfully finished it. Each point cuts 0.25 seconds off of CT's cooldown. This means that each 4 points let it recover 1 second faster, and a full 100 point combo will bring the cooldown time to just 35 seconds. It is unfortunately unknown if a 101 chain shortens the cooldown further.

Showtime (ショウタイム)
Can only be activated when machineguns are equipped. After activating this skill, your machinegun gear charge speed and hate generated from attacking enemies both increase for the next 45 seconds. This skill is just barely helpful on its own, but some other skills down the Show Time branch are very good.

Showtime Star (ショウタイムスター)
Increases your max PP by up to 50 points so long as you have machineguns equipped while Showtime is active. This skill was made for Satellite Aim and you know it. It also works great with Ranger's traps, since every enemy that you hit with Stun Grenade recovers 10 more of your PP. Other skills that recover a percentage of you PP, such as Just Reversal PP Gain and probably nothing else, synergize with this as well.

Toughness Time (タフネスタイム)
Completely nullifies machinegun gear gauge reduction due to damage when Showtime is active. However, it will still go down over time if you aren't shooting at something.

High Time (ハイタイム)
Main class only. Is not actually a part of Showtime branch, but you do need Showtime to even use it. With this skill, so long as Showtime is active, the damage you deal steadily grows over time. Getting hit nullifies High Time's bonus that you've accumulated over time and makes it slowly increase again, which makes is sorta like what Machinegun Gear used to be. This skill will boost the damage of any weapon for the Showtime's duration, but you still need machineguns to activate Showtime in the first place.

One More Time (ワンモアタイム)
If you never get hit during the initial Showtime, it will reactivate for another 45 seconds, but only once. The 15 seconds cooldown that you normally receive after Showtime ends will still be there after One More Time is over. If you had High Time's effect during Showtime, you will not lose the damage bonus that it gave you upon reactivation. You will also need to have machineguns equipped upon reactivation, since it will refuse to trigger otherwise.

Zero Range Advance 1 and 2 (ゼロレンジアドバンス1, ゼロレンジアドバンス2)
This skill increases the power of all shooting attacks when at point blank range. Since Gunner's best moves deal ranged damage and have no range, it's a good skill to have.

Zero Range Critical (ゼロレンジクリティカル)
If you love critical hits, you might want to take this, since it gives you a +50% bonus to the chance of landing criticals point blank. Just like Zero Range Advance, it only works on shooting attacks.

Perfect Keeper (パーフェクトキーパー)
You deal additional damage while your HP is above 75%. Not too bad of a skill to put one point in for a 1.1 modifier, but spending 10 points on it for a 1.2 one is up for debate.

You can buy this skill in Challenge Quest at level 1, which gives you 1.1 damage modifier.

Aerial Advance (エアリアルアドバンス)
You deal additional damage to enemies that are in the air. While there are plenty of aerial enemies in the game, and 1.2 modifier seems nice, this skill's utility is still questionable, as most of your enemies walk on the ground and can't be reliably kept in the air for long. In addition, some enemies that you'd think are floating, such as Val Rodos, don't trigger Aerial Advance for whatever reason.

Automate Deadline (オートメイトデッドライン)
Gives you a chance to automatically use a Mate item once your HP hits 25% without interrupting you in any way. The chance itself increases from negligible to 100% as you level up the skill. It's more economical that Hunter's Automate Halfline, due to it conserving your mates until you need them more, but is also more risky, should you find something that hits too hard. It also doesn't work well with Perfect Keeper, since Monomates will never bring your HP above 75% with it, and neither will Dimates if they're used when you are at less than 9% HP. To avoid this problem, consider not getting hit.

Attack PP Restorate (アタックPPリストレイト)
This skill increases the amount of PP that you get from attacking your enemies. Your PP seems to be stored as a real number, so you will still benefit from the skill if you only put 1 SP into it and use a weapon that recovers 1 PP per hit, like Rifle or Machinegun, even though PSO2 usually likes to round numbers down whenever given a chance. At 10 SP, this skill doubles your attack PP recovery. Unfortunately, it doesn't multiply with weapon potentials that are supposed to further boost that - when using such a weapon, you recover 200% of PP with the skill and then 30% or 80% more with the potential, instead of the numbers multiplying for 260%/360% recovery. Oh well.

This skill can be bought in Challenge Quest at a rather low level, and it's still pretty useful. Go figure.

Twin Machinegun Mastery (Tマシンガンマスタリー)
A main class skill that increases the damage of critical hits by up to 1.05 and increases PP recovery when twin machineguns are equipped. Moderately useful, since PP is always an issue for Gunner.

S-Roll Up (Sロールアップ)
Increases the damage you deal when shooting during S-Roll. There are much better skills to put points into.

S-Roll Arts (Sロールアーツ)
Pressing the RMB/PA button during S-Roll deals a slightly stronger attack at the cost of 10 PP. While this skill consumes PP, it's not a PA, so you still recover your PP over time and from damaging your enemy as you would normally. It's still pretty useless despite that.

S-Roll JA Bonus (SロールJAボーナス)
Increases the damage of a JA done right after S-Roll by up to 10%. It only works on one attack done after S-Roll, which limits the skill's usability to just a few PAs, namely Infinity Fire, Elder Rebellion and Heel Stab. It is also incompatible with Ranger's Standing Snipe skill for obvious reasons. Furthermore, while S-Roll JA Bonus does work on regular attacks, PAs and techniques, the genius responsible for this skill made it incompatible with the normal S-Roll attack and S-Roll Arts skill. Use at your own risk, or, better yet, don't.

Rare Mastery Gunner (レアマスタリーガンナー)
A main class-only skill. Since anything below 10☆ is largely useless nowadays, you have no excuse not to put one point into this for 30 more R-ATK.

Dive Roll Advance (ダイブロールアドバンス)
Not that great for Gunners considering that they have S-Roll, but it does help one's survivability during S-Roll dancing if you interrupt every one or two S-Rolls with one Dive Roll. 2 SP offer 0.09 seconds of invincibility, a much more valuable asset than the low number may suggest.

Dive Roll Shoot (ダイブロールシュート)
Another thing that Ranger benefits more than Gunner from, Dive Roll Shoot still does give you another option to approach an enemy with. Works somewhat well followed with a ground Satellite Aim if you need to have your enemy lie stunned on the ground, but is pretty gimmicky, and probably not widely used.

You can purchase this skill in Challenge Quest, and it seems slightly more useful in a Dead Approach- and Grim Barrage-less environment.[/spoiler-box]

Machinegun Photon Arts

[spoiler-box]Aerial Shooting (エリアルシューティング)
A largely useless PA now that Dead Approach has been reworked and Grim Barrage is being added. It doesn't deal good damage and can't compare to the usefulness of the alternatives for approaching things. It can be used to gain altitude, but this PA is still more of a waste of a palette slot than anything.

This PA drops in Challenge Quest, though I'm not entirely sure if it's any good there. It is one of the few ways to approach enemies until you get to buy Dive Roll Shoot, but you can just walk up to them, too.

Bullet Squall (バレットスコール)
Hardly useful. The PA has extremely limited range, and while it hits relatively hard it isn't very easy to aim and takes too long to execute. One good thing about it is that it is S-Roll cancelable at any time after you've started spinning in one place, although doing that screws up your positioning if you don't do it in aiming mode. Pretty sure it doesn't synergize with Standing Snipe, either. One thing it has over the otherwise superior Satellite Aim is that it doesn't launch your super armor-less victims out of everybody's, including your own, reach, but there is still Shift Period.

This PA drops in Challenge Quest and sees some use there, as it's the first Gunner PA you find.

Bullet Squall Type 0 (バレットスコール零式)
The custom recipe fixes Bullet Squall's lack of mobility, as you can move around for as long as you keep tapping the PA button with it. This allows you to deal massive damage to weak points, since Bullet Squall's AoE seems to home in on them with just a little positioning. Combined with the roughly 20% damage bonus, there is no reason not to use the recipe. It does increase the PA's PP cost by 10, but, incidentally, the type 2 craft effect is PP cost reduction by up to 10 points. So, rev up those PA fragments and meseta!

Dead Approach (デッドアプローチ)
One of the updates has made Dead Approach stun enemies it hits instead of launching them away, which used to make it the go-to PA for covering distance if you couldn't be bothered to walk somewhere (a common issue for a Gunner suspended in the air, such as when catching up to Magatsu or any time you use Satellite Aim against more than one enemy). However, with a (presumably) superior alternative being available for just 10 Photon Crystals after April 15, there may be no more need to bother with this PA.
[spoiler-box]One issue when using this PA on its own separate weapon palette is the delay between switching palettes. The PA itself is incredibly fast, but switching from another palette to it and then immediately back is impossible, since you need to wait around a second to change them. If you need to stay in the air (which you probably do if you have to use it in the first place) it's possible to deal with this limitation by doing one regular attack right after using Dead Approach and switching to another PA during that attack.[/spoiler-box]
Messiah Time (メシアタイム)
:hamster:
A somewhat good, even if slow, PA. It deals a lot of damage if positioned correctly, can hit multiple enemies, has invincibility frames during most of its execution and super armor when it doesn't, and can be canceled by S-Roll at any time during the second part of the PA. Its damage output against single targets is overshadowed by Satellite Aim now that it isn't shit again and Shift Period is a better option for AoE, but Messiah Time is probably the best thing to use with Guld Milla for rapid healing.

Infinity Fire (インフィニティファイア)
One of the long range PAs. Infinity Fire and Elder Rebellion aren't too different from each other in terms of DPS (in fact, I found their performance almost identical), but each has its niche use thanks to the way they work. Infinity Fire allows you to move on the ground and even jump without interrupting the PA, and it conserves PP better than Elder Rebellion. It's also arguably easier to get and keep the damage bonus from Standing Snipe with it. Its cons include being bound to terrain, which makes it harder to deal with aerial targets, and its double damage exploding shots taking a while to come out. Infinity Fire can also be canceled with both Dive Roll and S-Roll and gives you super armor for its entire duration.

Satellite Aim (サテライトエイム)
The one and only. This particular PA has very small range, consumes PP very quickly despite only costing 20 per use, takes way too long to use on the ground (and makes it impossible to get Standing Snipe bonus if you try), and it launches enemies without super armor high into the air, where few things can reach them.

Lovely, isn't it? Well, this PA has some strong sides as well. For one thing, it's really goddamn strong. It hits hard. It deals tons of damage. And, on top of that, it synergizes with pretty much every damage-boosting skill Gunner and Ranger have:

Due to the way explosions work in PSO2, you are very likely to have it home on the taget's weak spot and deal double damage, which is further boosted by Weak Hit Advance.
When used continuously in the air, not only is it fast, it also makes you stand still, which means that Standing Snipe effect kicks in eventually.
It has no range, so Zero Range Advance works as well.
If you got Aerial Advance for some reason, the enemies that you launch in the air receive additional damage. Aerial Satellite Aim launches them way too far up, though, so it's not advisable to do that.
If you get to unload Satellite Aim on your Chain Trigger, you can expect its already tremendous damage to multiply further.

Oh, and it's also cancelable by S-Roll at any time and has super armor.

In Challenge Quest, Cougar in Mission 3 has a chance to drop a Satellite Aim disk, and you should beg the MPA to drop it for you after you kill it. You can and should buy it after Mission 5 for two disks.

Elder Rebellion (エルダーリベリオン)
The other long range single target PA. Full Elder Rebellion deals more damage than Infinity Fire does over that time, but it also burns through PP faster and leaves you with no option but to cancel the PA and roll away if you find yourself in need to maneuver. It also suspends you in one spot in the air, which makes it better for sniping whatever it is you need to shoot up there and also leaves you out of reach of some enemies (very few of them as of Episode 3, though). Starting stronger than Infinity Fire also means that it should be used on Chain Trigger should you find yourself unable to reach the spot with Satellite Aim.

This PA drops in Challenge Quest, and is, naturally, very useful there.

Reverse Tap (リバースタップ)
A PA that deals striking damage at melee range, has a chance to stun the enemies hit with it and sucks them in closer to you. Not a bad PA to set up some targets for Satellite Aim, but not quite as good as Gravity Bomb, either.

Heel Stab (ヒールスタッブ)
A PA specifically designed to work with the one skill that was supposed to balance Gunner after the class got nerfed hard during Episode 2, it was added as a replacement to Satellite Aim at close range after somebody had the bright idea to make that PA completely unusable. Naturally, Heel Stab is quite useless now that the king is back and S-Roll JA Bonus isn't nearly as powerful as it used to be.

You can buy this PA late into the Challenge Quest, though I'm not sure if you should.

Shift Period (シフトピリオド)
The only strong AoE option that Gunner has if you don't count Satellite Aim wizardry and creative use of exploding bullets. This PA deals large damage to targets at melee range and finishes with a wide and relatively strong AoE attack that shoots non-piercing bullets all around. Unlike most other good PAs, Shift Period doesn't give you super armor, but it is S-Roll cancelable.

Grim Barrage (グリムバラージュ)
The new 20 PP approach PA. It covers a very respectable distance, keeps you in the air, buys you enough time to switch back to your regular weapon palette and deals ranged damage (though that doesn't quite matter for a utility PA). Its downsides include being slower to execute compared to Dead Approach, but some of DA's issues are associated with its speed in the first place.
[/spoiler-box]

Helpful links

Didn't find any class info on Cirnopedia, so here's the Swiki page on Gunner skills (http://pso2.swiki.jp/index.php?ガンナー) as well as PAs (http://pso2.swiki.jp/index.php?フォトンアーツ/ツインマシンガン系).

gigawuts

Sep 14, 2012, 07:44 PM

This might help http://bumped.org/psublog/fighter-gunner-techer-skill-trees/

Sp-24

Sep 14, 2012, 07:54 PM

Yup, thank you, that page is pretty helpful. Guess there's no way to link straight to the Gunner part, huh?

Xaeris

Sep 14, 2012, 10:10 PM

I'm level 20 and finally made it to Attack PP Restorate, so I can see the effect of putting a point in it. The system message is that, for one point, it increases PP gain from attacks to 110% of the base. If it scales evenly, that would be 200% of base for a 10 point investment and essentially, double PP regained per attack.

Personally, I think this is the most valuable skill in the entire tree, assuming it doesn't suffer from heavy diminishing returns. Chain Trigger makes the big numbers, sure, but even at a 10 point investment, it's only available once every 50 seconds, only usable on a single target (and if that target is a breakable, say goodbye to your chain), and only against enemies that will survive long enough to allow a substantial chain to be built. In contrast, recovering PP faster is pretty much always useful. Shame it's buried under so much crap though.

In the same vein, I think Zero Distance is also underrated. After the fifth point, it scales better, though I don't know the value at 10 points. All 6 of our machine gun PAs do their best damage in melee range (two can be initiated from range, but they take you to the target), and if it works with assault rifles like it should, then it'd be effective on Diffuse Shot as well. Sneak Shooter too, depending how you're using it.

Gen2000

Sep 14, 2012, 10:27 PM

I don't know the name of this PA but it's this icon: http://i.imgur.com/fWRwR.png. It does two shots separately but each one is very powerful. It's currently my big mob/boss slaying PA and current favorite of choice to end Chain Trigger with. I currently have a weapon palette just with 3 of those PAs on it for Chain Trigger ending.

I did a small test run with my 22 Gunner vs. 18 Vol Dragon to get a feel if I should invest all the way in getting lower cooldown time on Chain Trigger.

His face horn broke before I could test on it but applying it directly to his face and using the PA around only 30hits the damage turned into 1.5kx2 and I was about to do the PA 2 (maybe 3) times in a row with that damage. You get the bonus PA damage for as long as the chain text is orange so there could possibly better specific combos to Trigger ending but for now that's what I'm doing.

Having access to that every min is making me consider maxing Chain Trigger but I'm still on the fence.

plasism

Sep 14, 2012, 10:44 PM

Is this build viable?
http://pso2skill.web.fc2.com/gu.htm?sc=Gu@31u51153015010l000

It has max'd pp restore and zero distance. I'm not sure if lvl 1 chain finisher is worth the 4 points though, if so I might put it all on chain trigger, but then again the cooldown decrease may not be practical. Opinions?

kabutozero

Sep 15, 2012, 03:06 AM

Geistritter

Sep 15, 2012, 03:19 AM

You can switch weapons while the chain is up, and maintain it if you're fast enough. Thrillsplosion and Sneak Shoot make fine finishers.

Sp-24

Sep 15, 2012, 03:35 AM

Personally, I think this is the most valuable skill in the entire tree, assuming it doesn't suffer from heavy diminishing returns. Chain Trigger makes the big numbers, sure, but even at a 10 point investment, it's only available once every 50 seconds, only usable on a single target (and if that target is a breakable, say goodbye to your chain), and only against enemies that will survive long enough to allow a substantial chain to be built. In contrast, recovering PP faster is pretty much always useful. Shame it's buried under so much crap though.

In the same vein, I think Zero Distance is also underrated. After the fifth point, it scales better, though I don't know the value at 10 points. All 6 of our machine gun PAs do their best damage in melee range (two can be initiated from range, but they take you to the target), and if it works with assault rifles like it should, then it'd be effective on Diffuse Shot as well. Sneak Shooter too, depending how you're using it.

Yep, that makes sense. I'm still not sold on Zero Range Advance, but that tiny 1.15 modifier may go a long way with Diffuse Shot, One Point and devastating Machinegun PAs like Bullet Rain Squall. It's not as hard to get as some other skills, either. It's just a shame that Gunslash is surprisingly useless with this skill, since most of its melee PAs rely of S-ATK at least partially, and the only melee R-ATK based one, Thrillplosion, can potentially make you roll out of Zero Range Advance's range.

I don't know the name of this PA but it's this icon: http://i.imgur.com/fWRwR.png. It does two shots separately but each one is very powerful. It's currently my big mob/boss slaying PA and current favorite of choice to end Chain Trigger with. I currently have a weapon palette just with 3 of those PAs on it for Chain Trigger ending.

I use this PA (it's called Satellite Aim, if I remember right) against fast targets, like the panthers, a lot. However, for chains, I use either the spinning kick one, Reverse Tap, when I need to do some fast damage, or Spinning Death, if I know for sure that the enemy isn't going to move anywhere any time soon. Might also try finishing a chain with Bullet Squall on Gwahna and Ragne, since they seem to like to stay in one place if you beat them up enough.

Is this build viable?
http://pso2skill.web.fc2.com/gu.htm?sc=Gu@31u51153015010l000

It has max'd pp restore and zero distance. I'm not sure if lvl 1 chain finisher is worth the 4 points though, if so I might put it all on chain trigger, but then again the cooldown decrease may not be practical. Opinions?

Yeah, that Chain Finish looks a bit out of place. It only gives 1% bonus at level 1, so it's definitely not worth 4 skill points. 110 seconds is a pretty long cooldown, too. It might be better to put those points into R-ATK Up. :)

That's what I was looking for , a dpsing pa with range and not some flashy move that makes or requires you to get closer to mobs , not saying those are bad but for BOSSES I would prefer to keep the rifle playstile from ranger instead of having to dodge so much

Well, Satellite Aim is actually a bit flashy, too, and it's range is smaller Spinning Tap (a kick PA), even though you are using guns there. But it's a great PA regardless - fast, powerful, and it benefits from Zero Range Advance.

Geistritter

Sep 15, 2012, 03:38 AM

Some of my impressions about the PAs, since I'm here.

Aerial Shooting, the upward kick, can be charged. Can do some hefty damage if everything lands, making it a good finisher too, if not an easy one.

Reverse Tap, the goofy head-spinning attack, is surprisingly strong and has okay range, making for good crowd control, something this class is lacking in. Give it a shot if you haven't already; that stun icon doesn't mean it can't also do some good damage. I've also been using it to break Vol's tail with pretty consistent success, as well as his horns.

I've found Bullet Squall to be more or less useless so far. The initial hit is okay, but you spend a ton of time pecking away with tiny numbers when you could just be spamming faster, stronger PAs. If it had a wider radius it could be useful, but, well, it doesn't. The bullet rain at the end can be extended by repeatedly hitting your PA key/button during it, though.

You can also mash for greater effect when using Messiah Time, the dive in slow motion; mash your PA key to fire more bullets during the twirl at the end. Quite useful.

Only ones I've gotten my hands on so far, but it seems almost every PA so far has some kind of trick to it.

Oh, and you're also invincible during Messiah Time's dive, but not while you're pushing off, so don't expect to use that as a panic button. If you're having trouble making use of it as an effective attack, try jumping a little bit off the ground first; this raises your chance of putting your bullets into the enemy's face, and puts the spin's shots lower to the ground, as you finish upside-down in mid-air, increasing your chances of those hitting, too.

Sp-24

Sep 15, 2012, 03:57 AM

Another note on Bullet Squall and Spinning Death: their button mashing stages are cancelable with Machinegun's special action, so if you don't feel like spinning in one place, you may as well not.

IndigoNovember

Sep 15, 2012, 03:58 AM

Dextro

Sep 15, 2012, 04:19 AM

Charged Aerial Shooting > Satellite Aim > Bullet Squall seems to be the best combo so far, and it's definitely the coolest-looking string too 8-)
For Chain Finish, I usually keep an identical weapon in the 2nd palette with 3x Satellite Aim - the damage is amazing with it.

I've never really been short of pp, so I don't see any need for PP Restorate...
The common scenario when playing Gunner is that you'll have plenty of PP but struggle to find an opportune time to close in and dump it all. Especially if you're trying to fill up your Gear; you'll want to be as trigger happy as you can to fill it up.

On to Chain Trigger.
The default cooldown time is horribly long in reality, so i'd recommend maxing it out over Chain Finish if you're only going to do one of the two.
I have to point out the biggest flaw in the skill, though...

Chaining with Mechguns is pretty horrible on any moving target because you'll eventually find yourself in the following situation:

(i) You've started the chain but the enemy is too far away to get a PA off, so you'll have to run in for it. But wait! if you stop attacking and start closing the gap then chain will break!
So you're only option is to step forward > attack > step forward > attack > step forward > get punched in the face, fall over and lose the chain. And i'm sure it's happened to all of you :D
Gunner really needs the ability to jump forwards.

What i'd recommend is building the chain with a rifle (yep, you can do this), so that you can still shoot whilst strafing the target and positioning yourself accordingly. You can then switch to a Mechgun for the PA, or you can use something like Sneak Shot instead, if you want.

Sp-24

Sep 15, 2012, 04:26 AM

Geistritter

Sep 15, 2012, 04:28 AM

Shame Gunslash is single-fire, or I'd just use that to close distance. Even on this one weapon show I still enjoy me some Thrillsplosion.

Dextro

Sep 15, 2012, 04:34 AM

Building up a chain with a Rifle has its disadvantages, too, namely the inability to dodge and shoot at the same time. Defensive roll is incredibly slow, so doing it can cost you the chain. It think that chains should be built up with Machineguns, and you should only switch to Rifle for the purpose of moving forward and shooting at the same time. And even then, it costs you your Gear gauge.

Yeah, what i meant was that i'd recommend building up the chain with a Rifle as a solution to the scenario i posted, where you need to move forward to close the gap - not in general. :-)
Hopefully you have party members that will keep the chain up while you move in though, even if it's just the odd 1 attack every 2secs, it's a lifesaver.

Sp-24

Sep 15, 2012, 04:36 AM

Yeah, chains are so much easier to do in a party. And I especially like it that the chain is mine, and mine alone, and nobody else is allowed to finish it! :)

Geistritter

Sep 15, 2012, 04:39 AM

Being that I play with two other people at most, both ones I know well and fortunately aren't retarded, I actually wouldn't mind it if they could finish my chains. One of them is a Force, so.

This discussion raises a good point, though; Chain Combo is obnoxiously situational and difficult to use. It may be Son of Weak Shot, but I might skip it because of the pain in the butt it can be. I'd probably be better served ignoring the righthand skills altogether.

Xaeris

Sep 15, 2012, 04:49 AM

Anybody figured out a good use for Dead Approach yet? It just seems to hit the enemies away out of your reach (too far away for another Dead Approach or an Aerial Shooting to reach).

Edit: Also which Photon Art is Spinning Death (not seeing the name in the 6 that I have, are the 7th and 8th already released)?

I use Dead Approach as...well, an approach, on large monsters/bosses. The one thing that irks me about Gunner is that for a class that's basically melee with guns, just about everything it does puts distance between me and the target. I like to use Dead Approach as a gap closer when I'm fighting bosses. I was fighting the banther twins today and it was super helpful being able to zip up to their faces when they did their little trot and a hop away.

Sp-24

Sep 15, 2012, 04:52 AM

This discussion raises a good point, though; Chain Combo is obnoxiously situational and difficult to use. It may be Son of Weak Shot, but I might skip it because of the pain in the butt it can be. I'd probably be better served ignoring the righthand skills altogether.

Yeah, Chain Trigger is not what I'd call an essential skill for a Gunner. But, then again, Gunners have barely anything to pick from - Gear is an almost must, Zero Range Advance is a might, Attack PP Restorate is a probably should, and that's about it. Judging from the data that Japanese players are providing, Showtime isn't something you should be excited about, Aerial Advance, with it's 1.2 modifier, is very underwhelming... And you are only left with Chain Trigger and stat ups.

Geistritter

Sep 15, 2012, 04:52 AM

Gunner desperately needs a Step Attack type of thing.

Sp-24

Sep 15, 2012, 04:53 AM

Gunner desperately needs a Step Attack type of thing.

Word.

Xaeris

Sep 15, 2012, 04:55 AM

Now, now, we already made out like bandits with our Matrix flip and its ridiculous invincibility frames. >.>

Sp-24

Sep 15, 2012, 04:57 AM

Well, it doesn't necessarily need an invincibility (though I won't mind it having that one bit).

Geistritter

Sep 15, 2012, 04:58 AM

Overall it's a fun class, but deeply flawed. Fighter's a late bloomer, but at least it can contend eventually - although I think the people who like daggers are out of their damn minds.

Gunner's too busy arguing with itself to do anything consistently useful, though, and it's seriously lacking in diversity. Rifles are almost completely useless on it, not that they were great to begin with, and while Gunslashes are still good - not that people use them - all classes can utilize them, so it's not really worth mentioning in the class' favor, and almost nothing in its skill sheet benefits anything but machine guns, besides. Seems all the effort went into finding ways to turn John Woo movies and The Matrix into a class.

At least it's hard to hit, and entertaining to keep that way.

IndigoNovember

Sep 15, 2012, 04:59 AM

About Dead Approach, I've used it, as it's name suggests, as an approach, but I was more of wondering if there was any other uses besides that. It certainly doesn't seem to combo.

Dextro

Sep 15, 2012, 05:02 AM

I'd still like to know if Chain Trigger can stack on Weak Bullet. If it's been answered somewhere then I've missed it.
I can confirm that multiple Chain Triggers stack upon a single place though, so you don't all have to take turns applying it to different places. I tried to see if i could Chain Finish another Gunner's trigger but that doesn't work.

Sp-24

Sep 15, 2012, 05:04 AM

Yeah, only the Trigger's user can finish their own chain. No idea if it stacks with Weak Bullet, but it most likely should.

Xaeris

Sep 15, 2012, 05:07 AM

Yeah, Weak Bullet and Chain Trigger can stack on the same target. I got to see it in the Vader emergency. Sadly, he asploded when I delivered the rocket kick, so I didn't get to see how much damage that was.

Geistritter

Sep 15, 2012, 05:08 AM

It probably does stack with Weak Shot. Seems reasonable (outside of the fact that it makes the concept of game balance die a little inside), especially since you've confirmed multiple Chain Combos can be put onto the same enemy; that implies it doesn't work the same way as Weak Shot, and thus is exclusive from it as far as the game's concerned.

Oh, well, there you go.

Check your personal stats when you break the damage cap and see how much damage you really did; should be fun.

ClothoBuer

Sep 15, 2012, 07:16 AM

Personally, everyone playing a Gunner should at least invest a point into Chain Trigger. It's not costing a whole lot to pick up since it's the second tier with the same unlock cost as Zero Range Advance, and it has some uses. Chain Finish, on the other hand, I'm rather skeptical.

Showtime, on the other hand, I'm very strongly considering picking up, for the sole reason of becoming a dodge tank. Think about it, we have all these invincibility frames and dodges from TMG skills, and with Showtime upping hate and Gear Gauge, we can potentially dish out some good damage along with nice hate generation. So I'm working my way towards that unless something comes along to talk me out, but that seems unlikely.

Hrith

Sep 15, 2012, 07:23 AM

Gunner is meant to be a subclass (skill tree is awesome), but the class has a low DPS. Machineguns are like rifles with silly animations, therefore much lower DPS, Chain Trigger is about ten times weaker than Weak Bullet, nothing a Gunner uses can remotely compare to launchers when it comes to handling groups of enemies.

I'll give a more definite opinoin when I'm LV40, but the class seems totally pointless.

Sp-24

Sep 15, 2012, 09:09 AM

Showtime, on the other hand, I'm very strongly considering picking up, for the sole reason of becoming a dodge tank. Think about it, we have all these invincibility frames and dodges from TMG skills, and with Showtime upping hate and Gear Gauge, we can potentially dish out some good damage along with nice hate generation. So I'm working my way towards that unless something comes along to talk me out, but that seems unlikely.

Yeah, I still don't want to give up on Showtime, either. It is a nice concept for a skill, although you will only the hate-generating part of it, really, since that gear isn't too hard to fill. However, as I said before, it is buried under pointless stat up skills and the hate generation itself scales pretty slowly with levels, which makes it not as desirable as it would have been otherwise.

Gunner is meant to be a subclass (skill tree is awesome), but the class has a low DPS. Machineguns are like rifles with silly animations, therefore much lower DPS, Chain Trigger is about ten times weaker than Weak Bullet, nothing a Gunner uses can remotely compare to launchers when it comes to handling groups of enemies.

I'll give a more definite opinoin when I'm LV40, but the class seems totally pointless.

Gunner wasn't meant to be a subclass. That's just a silly thing to say. The problem with Gunner and Techer as stand-alone classes isn't what they were supposed to do, it's what they weren't supposed to do, which would be to compete with their overpowered counterparts. After all, you might notice that people who say that Techer is designed to be a subclass due to Force being much more powerful bring up the take-it-immediately-or you-suck skill that I probably don't even have to mention and the single most overused technique ever as a proof. Similarly, you yourself have mentioned two things that Rangers have been abusing to no end ever since Open Beta (since they fixed Jellen Shot). There is a good reason why Fighter is the only class out of these three that isn't designed to be a subclass, according to people here.

If a balance patch ever happens upon us, it will "severely nerf" two classes. Can you guess their names?

Limbo_lag

Sep 15, 2012, 09:11 AM

About Dead Approach, I've used it, as it's name suggests, as an approach, but I was more of wondering if there was any other uses besides that. It certainly doesn't seem to combo.

Dead approach is currently my favourite PA for GU. I'll list some of its uses:

-Can be used as a quickmove ability, much like rodeo drive. Much better as it only costs 25PP.

-It knockbacks enemies, and into the air as well, allowing you to set up for Aerial Advance.

-Knockback puts distance between you and the enemy.

-Due to traveling distance and speed, it can be used defensively as well, to escape from clustered mobs, etc. Again, knockback helps blast a way though.

-It is excellent for zoning in on a chain break, especially for bosses which have weakspots on their back (e.g. caterdan/vol). Due to its speed, distance and horizontal locking, I find it a lot more accurate and effective in connecting with a chain break, in comparison to other GU PAs, such as messiah time.

-Due to it's 25PP cost, as well as it's speed, you can use it 4 times on one chain break, leading to terrible, terrible, damage.

-Dat sound.

-Dat Royal Guard Break from DMC.

Also, unrelated, but a nice PA combo I came up with: Aerial Shooting -> Reverse Tap -> That "spinning while shooting in the air" PA (Bullet Squall I think).

And....about Showtime, what does it mean by "increased hate"? Does it mean aggro?

One more thing! About Aerial Advance, it supposedly increases your damage against airbourne enemies. What about enemies larger than you (ie, you are shooting upwards)?

ClothoBuer

Sep 15, 2012, 09:55 AM

Yeah, I still don't want to give up on Showtime, either. It is a nice concept for a skill, although you will only the hate-generating part of it, really, since that gear isn't too hard to fill. However, as I said before, it is buried under pointless stat up skills and the hate generation itself scales pretty slowly with levels, which makes it not as desirable as it would have been otherwise.

Even if hate doesn't scale well, we as a class deal enough overall damage to pull enough of it. Additionally, if you get lucky, you can get the Hate Up effect from the Shifta Drinks, which works wonders for gaining hate. Once I actually have the ability unlocked and I play around with it, I'll get a feel for what it's capable of, but until then I'm holding out hope.

Dead approach is currently my favourite PA for GU. I'll list some of its uses:

-Can be used as a quickmove ability, much like rodeo drive. Much better as it only costs 25PP.

-It knockbacks enemies, and into the air as well, allowing you to set up for Aerial Advance.

-Knockback puts distance between you and the enemy.

-Due to traveling distance and speed, it can be used defensively as well, to escape from clustered mobs, etc. Again, knockback helps blast a way though.

-It is excellent for zoning in on a chain break, especially for bosses which have weakspots on their back (e.g. caterdan/vol). Due to its speed, distance and horizontal locking, I find it a lot more accurate and effective in connecting with a chain break, in comparison to other GU PAs, such as messiah time.

-Due to it's 25PP cost, as well as it's speed, you can use it 4 times on one chain break, leading to terrible, terrible, damage.

-Dat sound.

-Dat Royal Guard Break from DMC.

Also, unrelated, but a nice PA combo I came up with: Aerial Shooting -> Reverse Tap -> That "spinning while shooting in the air" PA

Dead Approach is in my opinion the better of the gap closers. It may not benefit from the second attack Aerial Shooting gets from the charge, but it's quicker, closes more ground, plus the knock-back can disperse a crowd. The best single-target chain combo I've found so far has been Aerial Shooting (charged) -> Reverse Tap -> Bullet Squall. Close the gap to knock-up to midair stun to knockdown and mostly unevadable damage. Getting the timing and position for the Squall's spin damage is the tricky part, but it'll more or less dispatch any lone mob you face. For groups, Dead Approach -> Satellite Aim -> Reverse Tap is my go-to. Dead Approach gets you into the crowd, clears a few of them out of the way, Satellite Aim launches anything that's close and Reverse Tap catches them as they come down and whatever's left. If you feel, you can switch out Reverse Tap for something else, but it's the one I felt that has fit the best of the ones I played with.

Gen2000

Sep 15, 2012, 10:57 AM

That's what I was looking for , a dpsing pa with range and not some flashy move that makes or requires you to get closer to mobs , not saying those are bad but for BOSSES I would prefer to keep the rifle playstile from ranger instead of having to dodge so much

This class reminds me a lot of the Acrobat from Dragon Nest, it has range attack but you're meant to mainly be close range all the time which isn't big deal with Gunner since they have so many invincible frames on that new dodge now. Plus you can mix that dodge with the default Ranger one for interesting results.

I'm still not sold on Showtime. The Gear guage doesn't take long to build for me already and going that far down into the skill tree for what basically sounds like War Cry doesn't seem appealing to me. Normal enemy encounters don't last long enough for me to benefit from it so I would mainly be getting for certain bosses that I hate chasing when their attention is on other players who play chicken (i.e. Banther/Banshee/Quartz Dragon).

Hoping some info is missing from it and it like adds a few more bars to Gear gauge or something (meaning more damage) otherwise it sounds pretty meh for being buried down so much the Skill Tree so much.

Anyone have the 1min cooldown Chain Trigger? I want some impressions from those that do. I'm a little over the fence but still haven't made that push yet.

Blundy

Sep 15, 2012, 02:02 PM

for clarification's sake, do mech gunnies use the hunter combo pa style or is it like the rifle...?

Gen2000

Sep 15, 2012, 02:04 PM

Hunter combo PA style.

gigawuts

Sep 15, 2012, 04:46 PM

So, I really really dislike ranger gameplay. I don't like sidelines-type classes. The launcher is just against every instinct I have when playing games. The gunner, on the other hand, seems to fit me perfectly as far as guns go.

Is it as drastically different as I think? I notice gunner has less hp. How do the mechguns actually work? Does the special function, the flip, give you invulnerability frames? Are mechguns more accurate than assault rifles when moving or flipping, despite having shorter range? That splashy effect when bullets vanish, is that an AOE?

I've skimmed the thread but saw no mention of fundamental properties of the class, so sorry if this was indeed mentioned like one post above me and I'm just derping it up.

Geistritter

Sep 15, 2012, 04:56 PM

There have been about a million posts talking about the massive amount of invincibility frames the special dodge has. As I said earlier in the topic, you basically have to try to get hit on this class.

Basic attack accuracy isn't a problem. I'd actually be inclined to say they're more accurate than Rifles, probably because your Gear is dependent upon maintaining continuous damage.

Basic attacks have no splash damage. Indeed, area damage is one of this class' weak points.

gigawuts

Sep 15, 2012, 04:58 PM

Interesting. So you can fire WHILE invulnerable? That is fantastic.

Geistritter

Sep 15, 2012, 05:02 PM

Yes; just make sure you fire as soon as possible, as you'll lose some shots as the animation resets if you wait.

If you "combo" the special dodge up to a third roll, you'll do a slow motion roll that lets you fire extra bullets and remain invincible for an especially long period of time.

If you're high in the air by the time you start rolling, you can stay up there almost indefinitely.

You can't PA while dodging in any way.

You can Just Attack into a special dodge, but I don't do enough damage to be able to tell if it'll matter much yet, or whether it applies to the first attack, all three potential attacks, or to none of them. You can't Just Attack from a special dodge, on that note.

A lot of the PAs have tricks to them to make them more effective. There's conjecture on this early in the topic, too.

Coatl

Sep 15, 2012, 05:34 PM

Interesting. So you can fire WHILE invulnerable? That is fantastic.

I think you'll love gunner. It's a very addicting class.
I don't think I'll ever pick up my launcher again at this rate.

Geistritter

Sep 15, 2012, 05:54 PM

I miss my launcher all the time, personally, though Thrillsplosion eases some of that pain.

Thrillsplosion does most of what I'd want to on this class anyway, for better or worse.

gigawuts

Sep 15, 2012, 06:07 PM

Yeah, this is sounding like a serious contender for my subclass slot. I'm really, really liking the idea of FI/GU.

edit: two more stupid questions, sorry

Chaining - does that only work with ranged damage? Could I, say, chain with the melee component of the gunslash? And then the PP recovery skill, is that exclusive to mechguns, or ranged damage in general, or could I also benefit from that with melee?

If both work with melee, this class as a sub...oh my god.

Tanarin

Sep 15, 2012, 06:28 PM

No giga, none of the skills you listed are limited to just ranged weapons or mechguns. You can indeed chain with the melee part of a gunslash. Same also applies with using PP restore with gunslashes/rifles. All that is required is that it is a normal attack.

Silver Crow

Sep 15, 2012, 06:36 PM

Wait so does Aerial advance make you deal extra damage if YOU are in the air or your ENEMY? Someone said enemy in this thread so just making sure...

Dycize

Sep 15, 2012, 06:55 PM

I barely played Gunner, but you can definitely chain with anything, heck, your allies' attacks count towards the chain. Even their PA, which is cool because otherwise the chain would never go over 10 in a party.

According to bumped, aerial advance increases damage on airborn ennemies. If it increased damage for simply being in the air... Well that'd be too good to be true (or the bonus would be really low, kinda like JA bonus for hunters).

I've found that mechguns aren't easy to get the hang of. Particularly since I pretty much never used the lock on feature with every other weapon in game. But Messiah Time while airborn is the coolest thing ever.

Geistritter

Sep 15, 2012, 09:06 PM

You don't need to lock on to enemies with machineguns any more than you do any other weapon.

Coatl

Sep 15, 2012, 09:56 PM

So how much bonus do you get for keeping enemies in the air? I noticed I can keep them in the air almost indefinitely with the right combos.

kyojin

Sep 15, 2012, 10:39 PM

Dead approach is currently my favourite PA for GU. I'll list some of its uses:
-Due to it's 25PP cost, as well as it's speed, you can use it 4 times on one chain break, leading to terrible, terrible, damage.

quick question:

you can use several PA attacks in one chain trigger?
i thought that after you break the chain the next PA attacks are normal damage

IndigoNovember

Sep 15, 2012, 10:52 PM

you can use several PA attacks in one chain trigger?
i thought that after you break the chain the next PA attacks are normal damage

I think you can get more than one in before the whole thing ends if you're quick.

According to Japanese wiki's:

-Zero Range Advance is 115% at 10
-Aerial Advance is 120% at 10

Hmm, most of my Photon Art setup seems to revolve around launching enemies. Guess I might try Aerial Advance...

Also Showtime only lasting 30 seconds and having a 1 minute cooldown at all levels makes me a bit wary about getting it.

valmont

Sep 16, 2012, 01:09 AM

i kinda feel gunner plays like melee class..
wish we had step attack, not dive roll.. XD

Gen2000

Sep 16, 2012, 02:05 AM

quick question:

you can use several PA attacks in one chain trigger?
i thought that after you break the chain the next PA attacks are normal damage

Yeah I mentioned earlier that you get the PA bonus damage as long as the Chain Text is orange when connecting your first PA. That's why I've been doing Satellite Aimx3 for the ender since it was the fastest burst damage in that small time frame before the Chain text faded away.

Husq

Sep 16, 2012, 03:12 AM

You don't need to lock on to enemies with machineguns any more than you do any other weapon.

But, if you use the air vaulting move, the reticule in the TPS is only moveable on the vertical plane, making it useless, unless you back-flip and get lucky that the target doesn't move to the left or right. If you use lock-on on the other hand, it pretty much follows the target.
However, if you go close range you don't need to air vault anyway, dive roll is probably better for TPS.

Dycize

Sep 16, 2012, 06:13 AM

Limbo_lag

Sep 16, 2012, 06:43 AM

You can shift dodge to the side, just gotta hit shift + <- or -> at the same time :P. Backflipping tends to be more useful most of the time tho.

I'm wondering how useful chaining actually is...no one seems to ever aim at the spot, or kills the enemy too fast, and most GU PA's are short ranged, making it troublesome to hit at times :/ Also not sure if its worth dropping 10 SP into Chain Break+ (only adds 10%?).

kyojin

Sep 16, 2012, 11:32 AM

I think you can get more than one in before the whole thing ends if you're quick.

According to Japanese wiki's:

-Zero Range Advance is 115% at 10
-Aerial Advance is 120% at 10

Hmm, most of my Photon Art setup seems to revolve around launching enemies. Guess I might try Aerial Advance...

Also Showtime only lasting 30 seconds and having a 1 minute cooldown at all levels makes me a bit wary about getting it.

Yeah I mentioned earlier that you get the PA bonus damage as long as the Chain Text is orange when connecting your first PA. That's why I've been doing Satellite Aimx3 for the ender since it was the fastest burst damage in that small time frame before the Chain text faded away.

thanks for the replies, yea i just tried its just like a short acting weak bullet when broken.
im currently using air satellite aim since it the animation is much faster than being on the ground.

LionHeart-

Sep 16, 2012, 12:06 PM

At the moment this is what I am inclined in, putting my points into:

3 - R-ATK
10 - Zero Range Advance - 115%
1 - Twin Mechgun Gear
5 - Chain Trigger - 110 seconds
10 - Arial Advance - 120%
3 - Dex up 1
10 - Chain Finisher - 135%

= 42 points.

I can put some points in Chain Trigger to bring it to 8, or Roll advance/reversal/other stats/ or save them.

Since all PA's are either on the ground or arial it would make sense in making the CF/AA/ZRA all 10.

CF + ZRA = 150%
CF + AD = 155%

Now those % can really help with Chain Trigger and preforming without it. Atleast you wouldn't have to worry about getting over 50+ chain to execute PAs to. You can get away with 20-30 and still do decent enough damage.

I am thinking that CF/ZRA/AD are not tide to Mechguns, they apply also to Rifle + Gunslashers?

kyojin

Sep 16, 2012, 01:58 PM

i wonder if you guys already know this by now:
you can extend the bullet squall duration by spamming your PA button

IndigoNovember

Sep 16, 2012, 03:31 PM

You can charge Aerial Shooting and you can extend Bullet Squall as well as Messiah Time. Do we know of any others?

Gen2000

Sep 16, 2012, 03:35 PM

Yeah it's been cover along some quirks from the other PAs. Maybe the OP should be updated to include them. While I knew about the Aerial Shooting being chargeable I didn't pick up on extending Bullet Squall or extra bullets during Messiah Time until read this thread. EDIT: Oops I was a little slow in posting...heh.

I bit the bullet and got Max Chain Trigger, having 1min cooldown is pretty much a more consistent boost of damage come boss time. Usually after you pop it then do a decent size chain rep the skill is halfway ready to be available again. So you don't have to worry about trying to cash big all in one go from a 80+ hit chain or feel like it's a waste of time or something silly happens to makes you screw it up. Making it more flexible to use.

Like from doing a test Quartz solo run it would be annoying when I put the chain target on him then he decides to fly off screen, automatically killing the chain via time stalling. The quick boosted damage from the small chain reps into Satellite Aim spam was having me blow up his different breakable parts at a pretty good rate. Mizer was another good example, when he cools down and reveals his weakpoint you only have a few seconds to do anything else the chain target automatically goes away once he finishes his recharge.

It still pales in comparisons to Weak Bullet's ability to load multiple shots per activation though but whatever. I kind of know where I want to go with my build now, just would let to see more info and impressions of the Attack PP Restore skill.

Dycize

Sep 16, 2012, 03:37 PM

Messiah Time doesn't extend the animation, it shoots more bullet in the same time frame, so no matter the situation, mashing while Messiah Timing is definitely worth it. (edit : double crossed, or even triple crossed, doh)

Also it took me some tries but I can finally use mechguns properly. All I had to do was play them exactly the same way I would play a melee weapon. Oh did it changes things so much. I use Aerial Shooting as not-step attack and spam the shift dodge oh so much.

You can cancel many PAs with the shift dodge by the way, which is really useful.

Sp-24

Sep 16, 2012, 05:33 PM

Yeah, looks like PA quirks are mentioned pretty often here, so I'll add what we know so far to the first post.

And LionHeart-, I'm not sure if you'll read this, but everywhere I look, people are saying that Aerial Advance increases damage when your target, not you, is in the air. I still haven't found a 100% proof of either theory, but the notion is just a bit too popular.

Coatl

Sep 16, 2012, 06:03 PM

What's Messiah Time's purpose? It is by far one of the most useless Gunner PAs imo. :/
Super slow and super low damage.

Sp-24

Sep 16, 2012, 06:12 PM

What's Messiah Time's purpose? It is by far one of the most useless Gunner PAs imo. :/
Super slow and super low damage.

Well, Spinning Death does what Spinning Death does best. No surprises here.

Dycize

Sep 16, 2012, 06:22 PM

If all attacks connected (if), the damage would be pretty high. Problem : the hitbox on that PA is simply terrible. If a bullet could hit an area bigger than the bullet itself, it would have a lot less trouble dealing damage.
Its strength is its err, improbable invincibility frames. Improbable because you're invincible during pretty much the whole thing (excluding the start up and the end of the move). It also looks awesome, that's a plus, I guess.

kyojin

Sep 16, 2012, 06:28 PM

What's Messiah Time's purpose? It is by far one of the most useless Gunner PAs imo. :/
Super slow and super low damage.

super long invulnerability frame, not really that worthless just very, very slow and the range is very short too
and just as Dycize said

Geistritter

Sep 16, 2012, 06:37 PM

Well, locking on not only follows the target, which is useful considering how fast and narrow the mechgun attacks are, but it also makes the shift dodge not completely useless.
Afaik, you can't shift dodge to the sides without locking on, it'll just be the backflip.

Yes, you most certainly can. I do it all the time.

I found the normal camera mode to be generally annoying with ranged weapons, mechguns are no exception. TPS mode, while it allows to shoot where we want, is limited by the speed of the weapon and the PAs don't allow to move the camera to the side.
So you end up with lock on, which allows shift dodging on the right and left, and mechguns are surprisingly accurate, so you don't end up missing half your shots like with assault rifles. It also makes shooting things in the air much, much easier.

I often wonder if I'm playing the same game as you guys. I find aiming mode and locking on to be extremely situational, not the rule, this weapon included. You're more easily able to react to the situation at hand, your field of view isn't limited, and the lock-on's method of choosing targets (see also, "purely at random") is fucking infuriating at times.

Then again, as I say everywhere else, I really like Thrillsplosion, and Thrillsplosion is total garbage unless free-fired, so I have a lot more practice at going free style than most people seem to bother with, which makes them automatically assume it's terrible, apparently.

Sp-24

Sep 16, 2012, 06:37 PM

I often wonder if I'm playing the same game as you guys. I find aiming mode and locking on to be extremely situational, not the rule, this weapon included. You're more easily able to react to the situation at hand, your field of view isn't limited, and the lock-on's method of choosing targets (see also, "purely at random") is fucking infuriating at times.

There are separate buttons for triggering lock-on and switching targets, and the latter helps a lot when you accidentally lock on a wrong one. And lock-on is somewhat useful - not only can you dodge to the side when you want to dodge to the side somewhat consistently that way, but you are also able to shoot your target if it's rushing past you at that moment. Not all that fancy, but still helpful.

Also, I updated the OP with some notes on PAs that have been posted here and that I saw when playing. Hopefully it's not wrong or anything.

Geistritter

Sep 16, 2012, 06:47 PM

I'm aware of the separate lock buttons, but the problem remains that you have zero control over what it decides to lock, or what next. It should be as simple as the point you're most closely facing, but, well, it isn't.

As for the update on your original post, it's been stated earlier in the topic, but there's really no reason not to max Zero Range Advance; the majority of your attacks are only effective at point-blank range.

IndigoNovember

Sep 16, 2012, 06:48 PM

LionHeart-

Sep 16, 2012, 06:51 PM

And LionHeart-, I'm not sure if you'll read this, but everywhere I look, people are saying that Aerial Advance increases damage when your target, not you, is in the air. I still haven't found a 100% proof of either theory, but the notion is just a bit too popular.

Ohhh! Interesting indeed! I haven't really heard about that thought. So, just throwing a few scenarios out, to see if it fits Aerial Advance.

1) Aerial Advance only applies when I am on the ground (moving or standstill), while shooting a monster which is in the air (flying, jumped or juggled).

2) Aerial Advance only applies when I am in the air preforming a normal attack or photon arts, while the monster is in the air (flying, jumped or juggled).

3) Aerial Advance applies when I am on the ground (moving or standstill) and when I am in the air (jumped, then using shoot/PA or used a PA that lifts the character from the ground and hits opponent).

I hope the above makes sense. What do you guys think? I'm more inclined to think its number (3). It doesn't matter weather the character is on the ground or in flight, the monster has to be off the ground.

Thank you! :)

(EDIT) Thanks for the tip on the PA's. The spinning death really owns now! Shame for low numbers atm, but loads of hits.

Dycize

Sep 16, 2012, 06:59 PM

Consensus seem to point to option 3 : no matter where you are, the monster has to be in the air.

@Geistritter : You missed my post where I learned how to use mechguns =p I don't lock on anymore (except for bosses, I don't trust the automatic aim to make me shoot where I want) and do plenty of side dodging without it. Those weapons really have to be used with a melee mindset.
Also, people use gunslashes in TPS/lock on mode for reasons other than shooting/using Aiming Shot? Madness.

Geistritter

Sep 16, 2012, 07:05 PM

You missed my post where I learned how to use mechguns =p I don't lock on anymore (except for bosses, I don't trust the automatic aim to make me shoot where I want) and do plenty of side dodging without it. Those weapons really have to be used with a melee mindset.

Most people in this game are extremely stubborn and lacking in will to adapt. I wrongly assumed you'd be in the same camp.

Also, people use gunslashes in TPS/lock on mode for reasons other than shooting/using Aiming Shot? Madness.

I wouldn't know, or be terribly interested. Thrillsplosion just taught me a lot about movement and use of free aiming, is all.

Sp-24

Sep 16, 2012, 07:08 PM

3) Aerial Advance applies when I am on the ground (moving or standstill) and when I am in the air (jumped, then using shoot/PA or used a PA that lifts the character from the ground and hits opponent).

Yeah, I'm sticking to this theory, too. I'll try to find somebody with a video on Japanese site, but so far, I only have a few anonymous posts supporting this.

Geistritter

Sep 16, 2012, 07:43 PM

The skill description is "while an enemy is in the air", guys. It really doesn't require this much guessing at. If it's in the air, whatever you're doing, in the air or not, doesn't matter.

That said, you can do some effective juggling on certain high HP enemies with things like Satellite Aim, keeping them aloft while inching forward with the regular attack, but I don't think the multiplier is quite enough to justify it. 150%, maybe.

Sp-24

Sep 16, 2012, 07:53 PM

The skill description is "while an enemy is in the air", guys. It really doesn't require this much guessing at. If it's in the air, whatever you're doing, in the air or not, doesn't matter.

Are you sure about that, though? I'm not very good at Japanese, but after using what little skill I have and two automatic translators, I still couldn't figure out which one is it. And even Bumped.org went with a general "air-you-enemy-attack" that can be interpreted either way.

Geistritter

Sep 16, 2012, 08:04 PM

I'm only going off of what it says. I don't have it myself, but I still think you're giving it too much thought.

That said, most of the skills on this class aren't particularly useful, so I might end up getting it just because there isn't a lot else I want. Chain Attack strikes me as something that I won't bother with; I feel like the time spent not using PAs in an attempt to build the chain would offset whatever bonus you end up getting, in the end, and that's not even accounting for the times where you'll build a chain, then can't finish it for whatever reason.

Thus, Aerial Advance seems like one of the few other options beside R-Atk Up, and since I haven't spent a skill point in awhile, I'd notice the difference, regardless of where it applies, pretty quickly if I dumped a bunch of points into it at once. Give me your thoughts on the above paragraph, and I'll think about it some more.

Sp-24

Sep 16, 2012, 08:05 PM

Looking forward to you testing this skill if you are brave enough to spend SP on it, then. :)

Dinosaur

Sep 16, 2012, 10:50 PM

Chain Attack strikes me as something that I won't bother with; I feel like the time spent not using PAs in an attempt to build the chain would offset whatever bonus you end up getting, in the end, and that's not even accounting for the times where you'll build a chain, then can't finish it for whatever reason.

Pop your Chain Trigger when you run out of PP.

Geistritter

Sep 17, 2012, 12:01 AM

That'd still only put it around 20 or 30 hits, and people are talking about breaking 100, so, yeah.

Still, you bring up a good point as something to make up ground when you're not using PAs here and there; I could just put one point into it for that purpose alone and not miss much while still gaining some potential utility.

valmont

Sep 17, 2012, 03:05 AM

how about PP restorate?
anyone tried yet?
as for chain trigger/finisher..
i assume if both skill maxed it will be nice addition to gunner dps..
the thing is, you must spend 23 skill point to maxing both.. XD
sorry for the bad english..

Coatl

Sep 17, 2012, 03:05 AM

Does Zero range distance only apply to normal attacks?
I realize that makes the skill a little redundant.

At lv40 this will be my build.
lv3 r-atk boost
lv5 Zero range advance
Twin mech gear.
lv5 HP up
lv5 r-def up
lv10 Attack PP restorate.

And with that, I've looted all the diamonds of the left side of the gunner skill tree.
Now the right side.

lv10chain trigger
lv5 dexterity

The only thing I'm shaky about are those 5 points into dexterity. I am against putting those 5 points into finisher because although chain trigger is good, it is no easy task trying to get the chain up to 30-40s, and then trying to somehow land a finishing PA on the boss. It is easy on bosses like Ragne and Vol, but quartz and banshee are another story.

Dextro

Sep 17, 2012, 05:29 AM

Finally got a chance to see CT & WB stack on something. The icon looks really awesome :-D
[SPOILER-BOX]http://s15.postimage.org/qv70fvozv/pso20120917_111504_000.png
http://s9.postimage.org/7xutxs7lr/pso20120917_111620_001.png[/SPOILER-BOX]

Chain 50 was doing 7500-8500 per hit of Satellite Aim :wacko: and that's with only Lv.1 Chain Finish and at lv.25.

Right now i can't recommend maxing Chain Trigger enough, you can use it multiple times in a battle instead of only once, and you won't want to smash your head into the screen everytime you waste it by not managing to PA finish.
Depends on your playstyle though, i guess. I wanna hear from someone who has a maxed out Attack PP Restraint - does it make a lot of difference?

Silver Crow

Sep 17, 2012, 06:42 AM

valmont

Sep 17, 2012, 06:53 AM

how bout just reversal? i kinda want to take it, seeing how this class plays like a melee class..
and it only cost 2 sp..

Sp-24

Sep 17, 2012, 08:27 AM

Does Zero range distance only apply to normal attacks?
I realize that makes the skill a little redundant.

Couldn't test it at the time of your post, sorry. However, from what I'm seeing here, Zero Range Advance seems to only apply to Machineguns. Rifle's and Gunblade's damage didn't vary even a bit no matter how close or far away from an enemy have I been, and whether I was using normal attacks or PAs. So, if that's how it is, then I guess Zero Range Advance is less useful than it seemed. I'll test it some more now that the game seems to work correctly at last, and would like somebody with a free time on their hands to do the same, just to make sure.

Yes, just did it again. My rifle's damage stays exactly the same no matter how close or far away from the enemy I am, while my weak-ass machineguns get noticeably more powerful when up close. This makes testing this skill on PAs a bit tricky, since every single one of them is used in melee range.

Gen2000

Sep 17, 2012, 09:36 AM

Right now i can't recommend maxing Chain Trigger enough, you can use it multiple times in a battle instead of only once, and you won't want to smash your head into the screen everytime you waste it by not managing to PA finish.

Lol, I said basically the same thing and it was slept on, but yes this is the reason I feel 1min cooldown Chain Trigger is basically another more consistent attack buff Attack Buff.

I'm maxing out PP restorate and i can definitely feel the difference. At rank 10 it DOUBLES your normal PP regen from attacks. I'll post my results when i max it...

About how much are you getting per attack with it right now? I'm not sure if I will max but definitely want to put a few points in it because having quicker access to more PA spam is more DPS.

Sp-24

Sep 17, 2012, 10:04 AM

Chain Trigger is a tough skill to recommend, since it's both very useful and, at the same time, pretty situational. I don't recommend maxing it unless you are sure that there are situations where you will need it once every minute.

Coatl

Sep 17, 2012, 10:35 AM

Couldn't test it at the time of your post, sorry. However, from what I'm seeing here, Zero Range Advance seems to only apply to Machineguns. Rifle's and Gunblade's damage didn't vary even a bit no matter how close or far away from an enemy have I been, and whether I was using normal attacks or PAs. So, if that's how it is, then I guess Zero Range Advance is less useful than it seemed. I'll test it some more now that the game seems to work correctly at last, and would like somebody with a free time on their hands to do the same, just to make sure.

Yes, just did it again. My rifle's damage stays exactly the same no matter how close or far away from the enemy I am, while my weak-ass machineguns get noticeably more powerful when up close. This makes testing this skill on PAs a bit tricky, since every single one of them is used in melee range.

What I want to know is if it boosts the damage of PAs as well, since practically every PA the twin machineguns have are melee. Zero Range Advance says it boosts the power of shooting at close range. When I think of shooting, I think normal attacks. And when I think of Twin Machinegun's normal attacks, I think of something that just meant to restore your PP so you can keep using PAs.

So depending on whether Zero Distance Boosts PAs or not makes it either a must get or incredibly useless.

how bout just reversal? i kinda want to take it, seeing how this class plays like a melee class..
and it only cost 2 sp..

Eeehh...
Personally I feel gunners are quick enough and have a good enough dodge to refrain from getting smacked all over the field like hunters and fighters are. I've had very rare occasions where getting hit and not having just reversal has led to a fatal consequence.

Gen2000

Sep 17, 2012, 10:52 AM

It's not really about needing and trying to do a big 80+ chain every single time you activate it making it extremely situational if that's the only way you go about, it's like you back away from a boss doing a big attack/goes underground/fly off screen/whatever you just pop it and go back in dancing with bullets and get your bonus damage. Even 15-20hits gets you good results from boosted Satellite Aims for accessibility of the 1min cooldown time. It's basically makes it an attack buff.

Hrith

Sep 17, 2012, 11:02 AM

Yes, just did it again. My rifle's damage stays exactly the same no matter how close or far away from the enemy I am, while my weak-ass machineguns get noticeably more powerful when up close. This makes testing this skill on PAs a bit tricky, since every single one of them is used in melee range.I guess it's a pity, but I understand. Diffuse Shell is already absolutely broken, so machineguns need something to catch up (but miserably fail).

Chain Trigger is a tough skill to recommend, since it's both very useful and, at the same time, pretty situational. I don't recommend maxing it unless you are sure that there are situations where you will need it once every minute.How is it useful? At best, it has like 20% of the DPS of Weak Bullet.

Sp-24

Sep 17, 2012, 11:07 AM

How is it useful? At best, it has like 20% of the DPS of Weak Bullet.

Well, Gunner can't use Weak Bullet anyway.

angrysquid

Sep 17, 2012, 11:14 AM

Coatl

Sep 17, 2012, 11:35 AM

FFFFFFFF..useless. x-x
Now I am unsure if I should get chain trigger to lv10.
But really, what else is there to spend your points on in the tree?

Dextro

Sep 17, 2012, 12:19 PM

How is it useful? At best, it has like 20% of the DPS of Weak Bullet.

lol. Nothing in the game short of a Pure-Fire Tree FO can match the DPS of Weak bullet...

valmont

Sep 17, 2012, 02:44 PM

FFFFFFFF..useless. x-x
Now I am unsure if I should get chain trigger to lv10.
But really, what else is there to spend your points on in the tree?
...
yeah.. now im pretty confused too.. ._.

Gen2000

Sep 17, 2012, 03:42 PM

It would be pretty dumb if Zero Range Advance didn't apply to PAs. Is that a real translation or some google-ish mess? I mean"only PA gunner keep the losses in the skills". Dafuq?

angrysquid

Sep 17, 2012, 04:16 PM

It would be pretty dumb if Zero Range Advance didn't apply to PAs. Is that a real translation or some google-ish mess? I mean"only PA gunner keep the losses in the skills". Dafuq?

That's why I added the Japanese text there too.
I have no nihon friend to translate this so I tried out multiple translation sites. That's the best result so far.

Hrith

Sep 17, 2012, 04:41 PM

Silver Crow

Sep 17, 2012, 07:34 PM

I have both Zero Range (5/10) and Aerial Advance (10/10), neither seem to make any difference, whether I'm using machineguns or rifles, normal attacks or PAs.

Tested Aerial Advance with both machinegun and rifle, damage is the same (variance is 2 in both tests).
Definitely not working, or I'm really missing something.

You're definitely doing something wrong. Please bring in real numbers when posting something as absurd as this >.<. I have Aerial advance and its easy to test the difference, it's there.

AutoTranslator

Sep 17, 2012, 08:04 PM

Zero Range Advance:
What JP wiki says:全ての敵、全ての攻撃に効果がある上、近距離でのPAしかないガンナーでは取っておいて損のないスキル。
What translation says:All of the enemies, all of the attack is effective in the short, only PA gunner keep the losses in the skills.
Seems like it does not effect PA
"All attacks against all enemies are affected. For Gunners, who have nothing but close-ranged PAs, there's no disadvantages to getting this skill."

It just means that you should get this skill as a Gunner if you want to do more damage.

Mike

Sep 17, 2012, 08:11 PM

Zero Range Advance:
What JP wiki says:全ての敵、全ての攻撃に効果がある上、近距離でのPAしかないガンナーでは取っておいて損のないスキル。
What translation says:All of the enemies, all of the attack is effective in the short, only PA gunner keep the losses in the skills.
Seems like it does not effect PA
What this says is that zero range is applied to all attacks and enemies so it's worth getting as a gunner.

kyojin

Sep 17, 2012, 09:04 PM

Coatl

Sep 17, 2012, 09:12 PM

i just noticed while soloing a 12 man MPA (that means i don't have any party member of my own) other players
attacks does not add to the chain trigger count, only yours. . .
so i presume that only you and your party member's attacks count on the chain trigger count

Eh? You sure? I don't think so honestly.
I was using chain trigger on vader's core during the emergency and the count reached 100 every time I used it. That just doesn't happen unless you have eleven other people wacking the same thing you are.

kyojin

Sep 17, 2012, 09:31 PM

Eh? You sure? I don't think so honestly.
I was using chain trigger on vader's core during the emergency and the count reached 100 every time I used it. That just doesn't happen unless you have eleven other people wacking the same thing you are.

i am not yet sure about the previous post but when i joined Vader EQ and some wild Ragne fights w/o a party
(and im sure i mark the parts where people are attacking) is that the only attacks that count are mine. :-?

im im going to test it more once my team members awake from their AFK hibernation :grin:

Hrith

Sep 17, 2012, 09:35 PM

You're definitely doing something wrong. Please bring in real numbers when posting something as absurd as this >.<. I have Aerial advance and its easy to test the difference, it's there.Nope. 82~84 damage whether I am on the gound or in the air. Tried with a Vita Machinegun on Lv1 Udan. A 20% bonus should be very noticeable, so this skill is not working.

Maybe Aerial Advance boosts the damage to juggled monsters, I have to test that...

Eh? You sure? I don't think so honestly.
I was using chain trigger on vader's core during the emergency and the count reached 100 every time I used it. That just doesn't happen unless you have eleven other people wacking the same thing you are.I was alone in my team, earlier, but in an MPA, I can confirm kyojin's statement.

AutoTranslator

Sep 17, 2012, 09:40 PM

Nope. 82~84 damage whether I am on the gound or in the air. Tried with a Vita Machinegun on Lv1 Udan. A 20% bonus should be very noticeable, so this skill is not working.

Maybe Aerial Advance boosts the damage to juggled monsters, I have to test that...

I was alone in my team, earlier, but in an MPA, I can confirm kyojin's statement.
Aerial Advance works on monsters in the air, not the player character himself/herself.

kyojin

Sep 17, 2012, 10:28 PM

quick question. . . what weapons should i use for the 5 bonus gunner SP quest? all TMs?

AutoTranslator

Sep 17, 2012, 10:37 PM

quick question. . . what weapons should i use for the 5 bonus gunner SP quest? all TMs?
Yep. I'm having trouble as usual, to get the dumb Ragnes to appear though. When I didn't need them they appeared all over the place, and they seem to become extinct when I need them.

kyojin

Sep 18, 2012, 01:32 AM

just tested the CT on multi parties, it only works on your party members. . .
so it's not applicable to strangers D:

and also a souvenir from the recent EQ where i tested the CT hit contribution
WB and chain trigger = massive damage (though that will be too much to ask if the
buff applies to other party members too but that will be awesome and
the same time very broken too XD)

if you can't see its 12610 dmg per hit on satellite aim (no chain finish yet).
so that's (12610*2 shots)*4 volleys= approx. 100880

warning very large image
[SPOILER-BOX]http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo11/alkohol70/pso20120918_141741_000.jpg[/SPOILER-BOX]

Sp-24

Sep 18, 2012, 01:39 AM

i am not yet sure about the previous post but when i joined Vader EQ and some wild Ragne fights w/o a party
(and im sure i mark the parts where people are attacking) is that the only attacks that count are mine. :-?

im im going to test it more once my team members awake from their AFK hibernation :grin:

When you were testing this before, was it on some sort of big enemy that has a lot of different parts that you can hit? Because the chain counter won't increase unless you hit the spot that Chain Trigger was applied to. If those MPA players were hitting the correct spot, then it may mean that only the members of your own party can help you increase chain counter, because I'm pretty sure other people are allowed to do that - it was one of the advertised features of the Gunner class.

EDIT: my wonderful theory got ninja'd!

Also, added the info on the enigmatic Aerial Advance to the OP. Thanks for testing it!

kyojin

Sep 18, 2012, 01:45 AM

When you were testing this before, was it on some sort of big enemy that has a lot of different parts that you can hit? Because the chain counter won't increase unless you hit the spot that Chain Trigger was applied to. If those MPA players were hitting the correct spot, then it may mean that only the members of your own party can help you increase chain counter, because I'm pretty sure other people are allowed to do that - it was one of the advertised features of the Gunner class.

EDIT: my wonderful theory got ninja'd!

Also, added the info on the enigmatic Aerial Advance to the OP. Thanks for testing it!

i tested it on monsters with breakable parts (cate's tail, ragne's leg armour) and also on weakspots (screen shot above)
and it seems like only you and your party members shots/hits are counted.
that 85 counter was from me and my party membe,the others hits were not being counted on the chain,
heck my chain even got broken when i fell down varda
even though they were hitting the same spot as mine

Silver Crow

Sep 18, 2012, 04:20 AM

Nope. 82~84 damage whether I am on the gound or in the air. Tried with a Vita Machinegun on Lv1 Udan. A 20% bonus should be very noticeable, so this skill is not working.

Maybe Aerial Advance boosts the damage to juggled monsters, I have to test that...

I was alone in my team, earlier, but in an MPA, I can confirm kyojin's statement.

Aerial Advance works on monsters in the air, not the player character himself/herself.

the wording on that skill is so confusing... This is translated from a japanese wiki: "Damage when you hit the enemy attacks you're in the air rises" and it clearly says 'you're'

IndigoNovember

Sep 18, 2012, 04:51 AM

Silver Crow

Sep 18, 2012, 05:27 AM

Another way to think about it is to look at the symbol. It shows arrows pointing diagonally upward to the enemy. This means that the enemy must be above you in order for the skill to take effect. In order for an enemy to be above you, they most likely must be in the air. In addition to that, the monster icon also has a shadow on the ground underneath it. There is a bit of distance between the shadow and the monster therefore implying that the monster is in the air.

So it isn't useful against bosses. I know Gunner has a skill to throw the target in the air but since it doesn't work on most bosses and since i use the rifle for mobs instead its useless... I've wasted 3 points... ohwell atleast i didnt put 10 in

Hrith

Sep 18, 2012, 09:25 AM

Okay, thanks for clearing that up, then. Very disappointed =/

jooozek

Sep 18, 2012, 09:42 AM

kyojin

Sep 18, 2012, 10:16 AM

Is it just me or are the PAs pretty buggy? Messiah Time... does it hit ever anything? Very often Satellite Aim doesn't do anything even if I kiss the enemy, sometimes it does actual damage but doesn't get stuff in the air. Neither Satellite Aim or Dead Approach can hit the Code:Destruction beize. I'm seriously disappointed so far, it's like a melee class, but a gimped melee class, roll is the worst evasion move in the game. You would need to invest few points to save your butt for the time directly after the roll where you are frozen in place for a split of second. The shift action is p. hard to get to do anything other than backflipping, managed to sidejump few times but I couldn't find any reason why I was successful.

maybe its just you, messiah time and satellite aim is close or almost no range at all. all the skills are working fine on my side. and the shift-dodge thatas one of the best roll IMO since you can dodge and shoot w/o needing the step attack the only downside is you can't flip forward and it has a veeeery long invincibility frame. its easier to do sideflip if you're in tps mode or on autolock.

Gen2000

Sep 18, 2012, 10:27 AM

The way Aerial Advance works now is why I lost motivation to go with it, if it was bonus damage as long as your character was in the air I would be all over it. But only when enemies are in the air? The mobs who I would want to launch for bonus damage I can't and the ones I can already die instantly anyways to Aerial Shooting > Satellite Aim(s) or Aerial Shooting > Reverse Tap > Satellite Aim combos so the Aerial Advance bonus wouldn't benefit much there.

I mean I guess maybe it would automatically do bonus damage to those flying bird enemies in Floating Island, they are some annoying bastards but not dangerous enough to max a skill specifically for them for.

Messiah Time does its damage during the spinning gun part of the move, you're supposed to mash buttons during it make it fire more bullets, despite its looks it's a close range move. I still don't think it's great but that's how it works.

The Swag Dodge is supposed to replace the normal Ranger dodge as your main one of use, more invincible frames right off the bat and less recovery time. To do side dodges you press left/right+ special dodge button. Seems easier to do if you use the auto-lock beforehand.(Edit: Ninja'd again oho)

Dinosaur

Sep 18, 2012, 10:29 AM

The shift action is p. hard to get to do anything other than backflipping, managed to sidejump few times but I couldn't find any reason why I was successful.

It is relative to the direction your character is facing. If you want to cartwheel from a neutral position, you need to press shift THEN turn your character with WASD/direction. You will see a few frames of the backflip, but it will be cancelled into the cartwheel. If you turn first then shift-dodge, you will backflip in the opposite direction your character turned. Using shift-dodge during attacks or during lock-on makes the dodge easier to use as your character will stay facing the way he/she was attacking. This way, you can easily direct your dodges to the sides or backwards. Don't forget to shoot while shift-dodging. Being able to attack and build PP back while dodging is a huge advantage over other classes!

PS: A neat little trick: you can cancel the animation of the shift-dodge with a skill active or item use. You cannot do this if you shoot during the shift-dodge. Its especially useful if you accidentally use your bullet time dodge(3rd dodge) so you don't have to wait for the long ass animation to finish.

PPS: I'm doing flips n shit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh9YQYmAzBQ

jooozek

Sep 18, 2012, 01:33 PM

kyojin

Sep 18, 2012, 02:18 PM

Ah, so the movement comes actually while you are in the animation? No wonder I couldn't get it right when I was trying to press shift at the same time as the direction :derp:

And about Messiah Time, duh, no wonder it didn't do anything - does mashing cancel a chance to go into a Just Attack right after it?

no, messiahs time mashing will not make you miss a just attack chance.

additional info about chain trigger (i'll include the old ones):
-it stacks with WB
-chain break can be triggered with any of your PAs
-chain trigger attack buff will be active for about 2~3 secs after breaking
so that means you should spam PA while its still active
-only buffs YOUR PA damage
-non-party members will not be able to see the chain target
-non-party members will not be able to contribute on chain combo

things that i have not yet tested
- can it be overwritten with another party member's chain trigger?

Geistritter

Sep 18, 2012, 10:02 PM

Multiple Chain Triggers can go on at once, yes, at least according to previous accounts in this topic, and given that you've mentioned that other players can't affect them in any way, that's likely why; they're instanced on the originating player.

Limbo_lag

Sep 18, 2012, 10:12 PM

Is anyone able to get screenshot confirmation that the Aerial advance skill applies only to the enemy? I've had people tell me it depends on you being in the air instead. Would test it myself, but am currently too low-leveled to notice a difference :/

Geistritter

Sep 18, 2012, 10:14 PM

Is it just me or are the PAs pretty buggy? Messiah Time... does it hit ever anything? Very often Satellite Aim doesn't do anything even if I kiss the enemy, sometimes it does actual damage but doesn't get stuff in the air. Neither Satellite Aim or Dead Approach can hit the Code:Destruction beize. I'm seriously disappointed so far, it's like a melee class, but a gimped melee class, roll is the worst evasion move in the game. You would need to invest few points to save your butt for the time directly after the roll where you are frozen in place for a split of second. The shift action is p. hard to get to do anything other than backflipping, managed to sidejump few times but I couldn't find any reason why I was successful.

I've never had a problem with Satellite Aim; I can safely say it's one of the best PAs in the game, actually. It's surprisingly powerful, especially with a full Gear, which charges extremely quickly while using it, it's very fast, it's bafflingly cheap at 25 PP, meaning with a full set of like Units can easily net you five shots in a row out of it, and it knocks down large targets that are otherwise irritating (it also almost makes Aerial Advance viable, because it's easy to juggle these guys with it). Its only weaknesses are its range and its small area of effect. As much as this game wants you to use the combo system, you're way better off just going nuts with Satellite Aim and using other PAs situationally.

Try jumping when using it, though. Makes it easier to get headshots, and it doesn't aim as high upward, making it easier to score hits in general.

AutoTranslator

Sep 18, 2012, 11:01 PM

the wording on that skill is so confusing... This is translated from a japanese wiki: "Damage when you hit the enemy attacks you're in the air rises" and it clearly says 'you're'
Yeah, it's a little confusing. It can be translated differently depending on how you read it though.
The original text:

空中にいるエネミーに攻撃をヒットさせたときダメージが上昇する
It's not a good description (they just have to add in a "no" possessive particle to make it clear that it's enemies in the air, but apparently they chose to troll everyone), and in terms of English it can be as confusing as "Damage increases when you hit enemy in the air". Which is always a bad way of writing things since no one can tell what it actually meant.

Another way to think about it is to look at the symbol. It shows arrows pointing diagonally upward to the enemy. This means that the enemy must be above you in order for the skill to take effect. In order for an enemy to be above you, they most likely must be in the air. In addition to that, the monster icon also has a shadow on the ground underneath it. There is a bit of distance between the shadow and the monster therefore implying that the monster is in the air.
Yep. I didn't think of that though, nice theory that you point out. I was thinking if normal monsters' health increased to the extent that it's impossible to take them out in one standard combo with any class (hopefully, in Very Hard Mode), it would be nice to see something like a Fighter lifting enemies into the air with PAs while Gunners rape them from the bottom. But then again, I doubt that would be as nice when put into practice.

MrFortegunner

Sep 19, 2012, 01:00 AM

kyojin

Sep 19, 2012, 01:11 AM

So wait...sorry if I'm a little slow but...what exactly does the gear gauge do? T~T

Does it have to be full for it's effects to take place? And does it fill with only normal attacks, or any attacks / getting hit in general?

your damage increases as the Heat/Gauge Bar increases, it will reset back to 0 if get hit and the bar decreases over time if your not damaging anything with your twin mechs. and yes the gauge only increases on normal attacks

Amaranthus

Sep 19, 2012, 03:14 AM

Dinosaur

Sep 19, 2012, 03:51 AM

Ugh... So is Showtime good? Cause if I'm going for PP restorate I plan to go all the way this path and get the bottom skills since I've invested so much for crap skills already (I have to say HP up is the lamest). So I don't know, should I go for Chain triggers and finishers? or PP restorate, plus Range Attks/def, and showtime...?

I find that the gear charges well enough without it. For small skirmishes, you're probably not going to pop Showtime because it wouldn't even matter due to mobs dying in a single combo. For long boss battles, your gear will end up maxed regardless of whether you have Showtime or not. With that said, I feel that Showtime doesn't offer Gunner any distinct or unique advantages. Chain Trigger on the other hand gives Gunner massive damage possibilities every 60 seconds(at rank 10).

In terms of skill builds, getting Mechgun Gear, Zero Range 10, PP attack restore 10, and Chain Trigger 10 seems to be the most effective use of SP.

Amaranthus

Sep 19, 2012, 03:55 AM

Ooh. Thanks! Also, is there a minimum chain combo for maximum damage output for the finish?

Dinosaur

Sep 19, 2012, 04:14 AM

This is from the JP wiki.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh113/subarashee/PSO2/ChainFinish_zps6c54deb4.png

"Hours Chain" means how long you have to hit the enemy again before the chain breaks.

Amaranthus

Sep 19, 2012, 04:50 AM

Neato.

AutoTranslator

Sep 19, 2012, 05:48 AM

Kirbylovedebug

Sep 19, 2012, 07:37 AM

Dinosaur

Sep 19, 2012, 09:25 AM

So after reading everyone's posts a good strategy for gunner is Mash enemies with satellite shot?Cause on some bosses satellite shot doesn't wanna finish my chain sometimes even though it seems like I'm hitting the spot dead on.

There are a couple things:
1. Satellite Shot hit box isn't that great, so you it just might be missing.
2. There is a window of time that the chain can drop if you don't attack fast enough. This window gets smaller the higher the chain.
3. I find that putting Reverse Tap before Satellite Aim improves Satellite Aim's ease of use as Reverse Tap lifts you up in the air for your next attack, meaning aerial Satellite Aim will come out(which is faster in every regard compared to the ground version).

Amaranthus

Sep 19, 2012, 01:39 PM

Several comments on JP wiki managed to convince me that the increased Hate seems to be the more important factor of Showtime though.

If you're someone who wants to go for mainly damage, Showtime isn't what you should be going for. I think I'll be playing my Gunner as an aggro magnet so I'll most likely max out Showtime. It's lulzy, but hey, it would be fun.

Oh cool tank build? :o

And I've learned you can use Chain Trigger with Rifles so if you have trouble landing a decent finisher then use rifles and finish with Sneak Shot. Liek a boss. :wacko:

Gen2000

Sep 19, 2012, 03:21 PM

Sp-24

Sep 19, 2012, 03:56 PM

Anyone else invest into Attack PP Retstore skill? There was only like one post at the beginning mentioning some impressions of it. I would like to hear some more of it, like how much more PP per attack you get with it per level. Having to max that too would kind of suck with having to go through under HP and DEFup to even get to it.

EDIT: The wiki, as well as some people here, say that this skill adds +10% PP recovery to the original 100% per level, and maxes at 200%. So far, it looks about right, since the difference between PP recovery of my Force and Gunner has been very noticeable. My personal impression is that this skill is awesome.

Aryube

Sep 19, 2012, 05:49 PM

Anyone else invest into Attack PP Retstore skill? There was only like one post at the beginning mentioning some impressions of it. I would like to hear some more of it, like how much more PP per attack you get with it per level. Having to max that too would kind of suck with having to go through under HP and DEFup to even get to it.

I think most people are getting it. Though it costs quite a lot of skill points to both reach and obtain. You have to go through 2x 5 SP required skills to reach it. I think it's really worth it though... Could be wrong.

Dinosaur

Sep 19, 2012, 07:01 PM

IMO its importance on the tree is like how Force always gets Charge PP Revival. In essence, you get to throw out twice as many PAs as before which means double your damage output.

Aryube

Sep 19, 2012, 07:03 PM

IMO its importance on the tree is like how Force always gets Charge PP Revival. In essence, you get to throw out twice as many PAs as before which means double your damage output.

I agree with this. But some people may want to max out Chain Trigger + Finish which leaves them short of points to get this... So a sacrifice needs to be made, everyone with their own wise decisions will go for a build that suits them.

AutoTranslator

Sep 19, 2012, 07:13 PM

It was agreed in general on wiki that it's a must-get. Most concluded that Gunners should max it if possible.

Oh cool tank build? :o

And I've learned you can use Chain Trigger with Rifles so if you have trouble landing a decent finisher then use rifles and finish with Sneak Shot. Liek a boss. :wacko:
Not really tanking, since I'll just be drawing aggro while dodging every attack (if possible). Forcing bosses into doing empty attacks. Whether it works that well in theory remains to be seen. Personally, I think it's more to the fun factor rather than working well, but it's not like Gunners were meant to be DPS-bleeding classes either way.

Spending 10 skill points on it does hurt a little though, so it's down to preference whether one wants to do it or not.

And also, Chain Triggering with rifles might be a good idea, but I still feel it's better to use Twin Machine Guns' PAs for it. Satellite Aim hits hard and fast, allowing more PA spam during that short frame.

kyojin

Sep 22, 2012, 12:04 AM

Updates on my research on Chain trigger
Multiple triggers can be active in your party
whether all in one part or separate parts of a boss/enemy

Geistritter

Sep 22, 2012, 01:33 AM

Wow, Chain Trigger is woefully bad. Not everything has to be Weak Shot, but this is even worse than I was afraid of. All but what, two bosses in the game are guaranteed not to move somewhere that will break your chain at any given second, and absolutely anything else you could possibly think to use it on would just die having you dump your PP into it. I picked it up for utility's sake, and even that one point seemed like a waste after some extensive attempts. Definitely seems like R-Atk Up and PP Restore are the way to go after maxing Zero Range Advance.

kyojin

Sep 22, 2012, 02:05 PM

EDIT: The wiki, as well as some people here, say that this skill adds +10% PP recovery to the original 100% per level, and maxes at 200%. So far, it looks about right, since the difference between PP recovery of my Force and Gunner has been very noticeable. My personal impression is that this skill is awesome.

is the PP attack restorate affect the PP regen on attacks too?

Sp-24

Sep 22, 2012, 02:16 PM

It only affects PP restoration on attacks. You regain PP at normal rate, but you get x1.1-x2 of the PP that you would get from attacking the enemy.

kyojin

Sep 22, 2012, 02:38 PM

It only affects PP restoration on attacks. You regain PP at normal rate, but you get x1.1-x2 of the PP that you would get from attacking the enemy.

cool, i think i might get that skill since i already invested points on the left side tree

kabutozero

Sep 22, 2012, 05:55 PM

so.. attack pp restorate or max chain tree ? everyone saying attack pp restorate so good D: , but I always aim for damage

I invested some points into right tree already , I will be able to max attack pp restorate but zero range advance or chain trigger won't be maxed :/

FmT

Sep 22, 2012, 06:09 PM

If you want to do gu/ra or ra/gu when subclasses are out, you will want to use chain trigger on your last bullet of weak shot.
Since weak shot is around 90-100secs for most people, more than 5 points in chain trigger may be a waste.
PP restorate is great but maxing chain finisher gives big number :ak:

Sp-24

Sep 22, 2012, 06:34 PM

Chain Trigger is way too situational and tricky for the benefit it provides. You should pick it up, but specialising in it may not be the best idea. I'd advise against going for Chain Finish at all.

Attack PP Restorate is quite useful. At level 10, your PP recovers ~60% faster if you are constantly attacking your enemies, making Satellite Aim so much more spammable.

Zero Range Advance is probably nice, but being limited (I still assume; would be grateful if somebody else also tests it) to only Machineguns makes it a bit less awesome than it would have been otherwise.

Geistritter

Sep 22, 2012, 06:51 PM

FmT

Sep 22, 2012, 06:52 PM

If you want to mainly play ranger, that build may cover most of the needs :

http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/gunner.html?01GU!IOI2IbeDqsI34SIk

But when you play gunner this one seems more efficient :

http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/gunner.html?01GU!IOI2Ib2QqsIkIbf
with lots of sp left...

PP restraint is a must on both, I was looking for a build where you can get both PP restraint and chain finisher. Chain trigger may be hard to use each time, but weakshot with chain triger lead to massive damage.

Aryube

Sep 22, 2012, 07:15 PM

No one in their right mind would use Rifles on Gunner anyway; there's next to no benefit to it.

No tests necessary, either; you get close and it does more damage. Not rocket science. I've had it at 10 since I was capable of doing it.

Excuse me? There is no benefit to using Rifles on a Gunner? Rifles provide better AoE than Twin Machine guns and can move whilst shooting which helps keep the combo counter on 'Chain Trigger' going more easily. They are a powerful weapon and especially when sub-classing is out you'll have both Weakbullet + Chain trigger for good damage.

Edit: oh it's YOU, please - someone needs to read this guys recent posts. They're complete utter sh@!, who does he think he is?

Sp-24

Sep 22, 2012, 07:18 PM

No tests necessary, either; you get close and it does more damage. Not rocket science. I've had it at 10 since I was capable of doing it.

Zero Range Advance is probably nice, but >>> being limited (I still assume; would be grateful if somebody else also tests it) to only Machineguns <<< makes it a bit less awesome than it would have been otherwise.

I wonder if that was the fabled rocket science.

If you want to mainly play ranger, that build may cover most of the needs :

http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/gunner.html?01GU!IOI2IbeDqsI34SIk

But when you play gunner this one seems more efficient :

http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/gunner.html?01GU!IOI2Ib2QqsIkIbf
with lots of sp left...

PP restraint is a must on both, I was looking for a build where you can get both PP restraint and chain finisher. Chain trigger may be hard to use each time, but weakshot with chain triger lead to massive damage.

I'd rather suggest going for things like R.Attack Up skills than for the Chain Finish in the second build, especially if Ranger and Gunner aren't your main classes. As awesome as big numbers are, the downsides of Chain Trigger are just too glaring. 18 SP for something that you get a chance to perform once every 2 minutes just doesn't look good, I think.

kyojin

Sep 22, 2012, 07:52 PM

Zero Range Advance is probably nice, but being limited (I still assume; would be grateful if somebody else also tests it) to only Machineguns makes it a bit less awesome than it would have been otherwise.

i'll test it out with the other RA weaps im curious as well if it works on other equipment

did a quick test
Divulcan +10 (Mizer, Shoot3), 17 Wind elem, max Zero Range
Long Range, Body shot, no just attack
49~51 dmg per hit
tested with rappies, oodan and Za Oodans
close range/point blank, same conditions
50~53
same enemies, negligible change in damage

so far Zero Range has no effect on rifles

Geistritter

Sep 22, 2012, 08:45 PM

Excuse me? There is no benefit to using Rifles on a Gunner? Rifles provide better AoE than Twin Machine guns and can move whilst shooting which helps keep the combo counter on 'Chain Trigger' going more easily. They are a powerful weapon and especially when sub-classing is out you'll have both Weakbullet + Chain trigger for good damage.

Rifles' damage modifiers are poor, on weapons that have low damage to begin with; they're not an effective option as a replacement for another weapon, but merely as a supplement and/or because it's a long range option - although even then, Rifles' regular attacks are bafflingly inaccurate at long range, and Sneak Shoot has a wonky hitbox that makes it hard to hit from long distance.

Grenade Shell and Diffusion Shots' areas of effect aren't even big to begin with, and the latter's only slightly larger than Satellite Aim, if larger at all; you may as well just use Satellite Aim, which is way faster, and way more powerful. As for Grenade Shell, it's extremely weak, making it hard to argue its use even if its area of effect were massive, which it isn't. Rifles are definitely not a "powerful weapon" regardless, at least without Weak Shot, and nine times out of ten, you're probably better off just not pulling it out in the first place.

Yeah, your stance makes sense in theory, but theory is about as far as it goes outside of extremely specific circumstances.

Aryube

Sep 22, 2012, 08:50 PM

Rifles' damage modifiers are poor, on weapons that have low damage to begin with; they're not an effective option as a replacement for another weapon, but merely as a supplement and/or because it's a long range option - although even then, Rifles' regular attacks are bafflingly inaccurate at long range, and Sneak Shoot has a wonky hitbox that makes it hard to hit from long distance.

Grenade Shell and Diffusion Shots' areas of effect aren't even big to begin with, and the latter's only slightly larger than Satellite Aim, if larger at all; you may as well just use Satellite Aim, which is way faster, and way more powerful. As for Grenade Shell, it's extremely weak, making it hard to argue its use even if its area of effect were massive, which it isn't. Rifles are definitely not a "powerful weapon" regardless, at least without Weak Shot, and nine times out of ten, you're probably better off just not pulling it out in the first place.

Yeah, your stance makes sense in theory, but theory is about as far as it goes outside of extremely specific circumstances.

I think this guy wants a word or two with you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0LgGt_W2Mo

You may have broken his heart. He was proud of his rifle skills!

Sp-24

Sep 22, 2012, 09:01 PM

i'll test it out with the other RA weaps im curious as well if it works on other equipment

did a quick test
Divulcan +10 (Mizer, Shoot3), 17 Wind elem, max Zero Range
Long Range, Body shot, no just attack
49~51 dmg per hit
tested with rappies, oodan and Za Oodans
close range/point blank, same conditions
50~53
same enemies, negligible change in damage

so far Zero Range has no effect on rifles

Thanks a lot! With the way ZRA modifier works for Machineguns, this looks like proof enough that it doesn't affect other weapons after all.

valmont

Sep 28, 2012, 03:10 AM

what PAs you guys use for quickly kills a large number of scattered enemies?
i kinda feel tired when i see like 10+ diggus spawn together but scattered all over the place..
or sadinians spawn in circle formation around me..
same thing in MPA, when large number of enemies spawn continously during PSE burst..
i feel like not contributing much when MPA burst..

Sp-24

Sep 28, 2012, 09:44 AM

D-Inferno

Sep 28, 2012, 10:35 AM

Any good tips with hitting single target weak spots such as Vol Dragon's horn with TMG?

And is Showtime worth it?

Sp-24

Sep 28, 2012, 11:29 AM

I usually hit Vol Dragon's back horn with Satellite Aim. It's not very easy, since that spot is very mobile during dragon's attacks, but Satellite Aim is fast enough, and its hitbox seems to have a bias for higher targets, so I can land at least a few hits before something goes wrong. Its front horn is a much easier target, but it's harder to approach, so I usually save Chain Trigger for when I break its tail and then Satellite Aim the crap out of that horn. Though try to find a higher ground before finishing the chain with SA that way, because, even though SA does seem to favor high targets, it's vertical range isn't all that great, and you might end up damaging the dragon's jaw instead.

Whether Showtime is worth it... That's the question of the century. I'm going to say "no", though, because Zan-spamming Forces and Double Saber-wielding Fighters can steal the spotlight from just about anything.

Dinosaur

Sep 28, 2012, 12:05 PM

Any good tips with hitting single target weak spots such as Vol Dragon's horn with TMG?

And is Showtime worth it?

Charged Aerial Shooting then follow up. If its a lower weak spot, I'll do a low height jump'd normal attack into aerial JA Satellite Aim x 4(ground satellite aim is wonky but faster + safer in the air).

As for Showtime, no. PP attack restore and Chain Trigger are too strong to give up for Showtime.

NoiseHERO

Sep 28, 2012, 12:33 PM

Carillon

Sep 28, 2012, 12:43 PM

for a gunslash, you'd get a much better return from WHA on a ranger, or JA/Fury from hunter.

150ratk's only going to convert to about 18dmg on their shots before modifiers.

primary benefit from /GU is typically going to be AttackPP, which is more-or-less useless to a gunslash due to them already having very high PP regain.

NoiseHERO

Sep 28, 2012, 12:46 PM

primary benefit from /GU is typically going to be AttackPP, which is more-or-less useless to a gunslash due to them already having very high PP regain.

Yeah that's what I thought, in my edit... the PP thing should benefit my fists (which burns up PP FAAAAAST)

as for pure r-atk being that weak... e_e

Augh... e_e

Sp-24

Sep 28, 2012, 02:01 PM

To be 100% honest, I'm not quite feeling gunner's skills.

So if I wanted to use this class, specifically as a sub to get an R-atk stat boost for say... a weapon like gunslash...

What would you guys say to this builds? @_@

Or would I actually be missing out on something not getting one of gunners more unique skills? @_@

Also I wonder how many people are considering that you only need just reversal on one class... maybe that'd make hu classes the worst classes to get just reversal on... e_e

http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/gunner.html?01GU!IOI2IbeKmscAj

though I'd definitely sacrifice 50 r-atk if that PP saving skill is any good and works for all weapon types. that'd DEFINITELY make this a good class to sub... even though gunslash has like zero PP problems, my fists could SERIOUSLY benefit.

When subbing a Gunner, the only skills that are going to benefit your main class are Attack PP Restorate (he still hasn't fixed that, lol), Chain Trigger/Finish and Ability Up, if those golden units are your thing. Though I guess that extra 150 points of R.Attack could be useful for a Ranger, too, if one of those October's recolors turns out to be very demanding.

But do pick up Attack PP Restorate. It's not very useful on a Gunslash, as Carillon has said (one jump and your PP is back), but geared weapons can appreciate doubled PP recovery very much.

gigawuts

Sep 28, 2012, 02:43 PM

In my experimenting I've found gunner to be pretty fun on its own, but as a sub for gunslash and fists?

It could work, but you need to note a pretty key point: Chain Trigger has a silly long cooldown at level 1, and it has a silly short amount of time to charge it up and actually trigger it at all levels. That means you want high damage, short duration PA's when you do turn over to the PA bonus. That means probably wanting a weapon palette that's 100% the high damage, good PA you want to use. Yes, it's really so short on time that step attack repeating isn't viable - difference between 3 & 4 hits etc.

Thrillsplosion? Perfect for duration and even range if you can work the backwards roll in your favor, which I bet you can. Serpent air and rage dance - great choices, less range. Pendulum Roll? Good on damage, not so good on duration. Ducking Punch - getting better. The ground pound may really be ideal here, depending on what you're fighting.

I feel chain trigger will actually be better as a sub skill than a main skill, between mechguns and the gunner not having step attack. Being able to close that gap with a step + attack + JA PAx3 = yes yes yes.

Sp-24

Sep 28, 2012, 03:07 PM

I'm not so sure about Chain Trigger being more useful on other classes - even in a full party, I feel like I'm the one contributing 75% of the chain counter with Machineguns. And, as probably everybody has seen now thanks to that subclass trailer, Rifle isn't a very good tool for building up a chain, either. Guess we still need to see if Double Saber's special action contributes to the chain or finishes it, but I'm almost 100% sure that Chain Trigger will still work the best with a Machinegun.

valmont

Sep 28, 2012, 09:35 PM

Unfortunately, Reverse Tap is the best Machinegun PA for hitting more than one enemy, and you probably already know how good is it at that. Try switching to Gunslash and use Thrillplode - it's slow, but it gets the job done somewhat decently.

sob.. i guess we can only hope one of the new PAs will be a good crowd controller..

Any good tips with hitting single target weak spots such as Vol Dragon's horn with TMG?

And is Showtime worth it?

nose horn - jump->dead approach->2x satellite aim..
back horn - at around its neck->jump->aerial shooting>2xsatellite aim..

as for chain trigger, i dunno.. its just so frustating trying to land PAs to finish it at bosses..
i guess its at best when the target immobile like ragne 4 legs break, vol regenerating his tail, etc.. its too situational.. ._.

Onvirtual

Sep 30, 2012, 11:56 PM

Hey guys, I'm new to posting here in PSO-World, though I've been reading along all posts here.

I still find in disbelieve that people here keep saying ZHA (Zero Hit Advance) doesn't work on rifle for gunner.

Though I can't really speak Japanese, I played alot of Japanese games in the past so I'm pretty familiar with the pattern of skill description.

I have Ranger lv 40 with both maxed Weak Hit Advance 1 & 2, and the effect really shows. These passives basically tell that if you shoot enemy weak point, the damage you deal increases. Zero Hit Advance has the same pattern of saying, if you shoot the enemy at close range, the damage you deal increases.

I don't understand why so many people here assume that it's only for twin mechguns alone while the wording is basically the same as ranger's WHA.

Because of this, I did some testing. I had Tigredor +10 with shoot 3 and fang soul attached and 15 dark element. My Zero Hit Advance now at lv 10 (15% increase damage). I hit cave monsters called Nodoran (lv25). Here's the result when I'm far away (Hit on it's body) (Each hit I used JA)

72,73,72,75,72,73,74,72,72

Picture Tells All
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l244/Balbados/edit02.jpg

Then I come close to one Nodoran and shoot at it's body again. Here's my result (Each hit I used JA):

82,83,82,81,84,83,85,82,83

Picture Tells All
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l244/Balbados/edit01.jpg

Btw, sorry if this has been proven before, but it ticks me off how people still assume that ZHA doesn't work on rifle at all.

gigawuts

Oct 1, 2012, 01:18 AM

Thanks for looking into that, testing like that is always completely welcome.

Onvirtual

Oct 1, 2012, 01:34 AM

Another finding that I noticed:

On Ranger, the passive skill Standing Snipe effect only when you shoot things when you're... standing..

Here's the catch : For this to take into effect, there's approximately 1 second delay for the passive to activate.

I tried walking then immedietly stop and shoot at stuffs but the damage won't go up from standing snipe, until 1 second later when I see the difference.

Example : Let's say I hit Dagan with a rifle on it's weak point. I hit it for 200s when I walk and shoot, then I suddenly stop then shoot but still it hits for 200 until 1 second later where I see the number increase to 230-250s.

I assume Zero Hit Advance would act the same way since it's area based passive. I have yet to personally test this since alot of monsters love to move around (would probably try on Gwanada's tentacle).

IndigoNovember

Oct 1, 2012, 01:53 AM

I still find in disbelieve that people here keep saying ZHA (Zero Hit Advance) doesn't work on rifle for gunner.

Kyojin did some testing of his own:

i'll test it out with the other RA weaps im curious as well if it works on other equipment

did a quick test
Divulcan +10 (Mizer, Shoot3), 17 Wind elem, max Zero Range
Long Range, Body shot, no just attack
49~51 dmg per hit
tested with rappies, oodan and Za Oodans
close range/point blank, same conditions
50~53
same enemies, negligible change in damage

so far Zero Range has no effect on rifles

So we went with his results *shrug* .

Onvirtual

Oct 1, 2012, 02:25 AM

Yes I saw Kyojin's test on ZHA and at that time I haven't register to this forum so I let it pass by.

Thing is with ZHA and WHA, damage modifiers are both by %, and because of that, testing anything with low damage skill / weapon, you won't see the difference as much as you would like it.

Try do JA and hit the same target again, both long and close range. You will see a notable difference (like what I tested). Even more so if you could hit the target's weak point constantly (Darker comes to mind).

With Gunner using Tigredor+10, I hit Dagan's weak point doing 100-110s damage (all JAs). At close range, I can see the number spikes up to 130-150s damage per hit (all JAs).

Xaeris

Oct 1, 2012, 02:45 AM

After I maxed Zero Range and Attack Restorate, I wasn't sure what I wanted to do with the remaining skill points. So, in the interest of science, I have used them to get Showtime so I could provide a first hand impression of it. Plus, I really ****ing hate Chain Trigger, so there's that too.

It sucks about as much as anyone here was expecting. I got it because I wanted to see if there were any undocumented effects. As of now, I have observed none to report. There is one interesting detail of note though. When Showtime is activated, enemies in range are briefly lit up with a reddish glow. I imagine that's the hate increase. The range is fairly short, so you could reasonably activate Showtime out of range, get the gear bonus and dive in at no detriment to yourself.

Still a lousy ability though.

Onvirtual

Oct 1, 2012, 03:30 AM

I'm curious about Showtime myself. Is the rate of gear increase by it really that fast? Like 2 times faster than you would do normally without? If it's 2-3 times faster, I may consider getting it since that's like 1-2 seconds damage increase compare to like 5-6+ seconds increase without Showtime.

valmont

Oct 1, 2012, 04:06 AM

Btw, sorry if this has been proven before, but it ticks me off how people still assume that ZHA doesn't work on rifle at all.

hey thanks a lot man.. it clears my doubt.. XD

Sp-24

Oct 1, 2012, 05:59 AM

Onvirtual, the thing with a low percent modifier to a weak weapon's damage is that, if past games are of any indication, it usually can increase damage by more than a few percent due to how ATP - DFP formulae usually work. Twin machinegun is a great example here - even with just a 5% bonus from ZRA, both its minimum and maximum damage against any enemy goes up by a few points, even without a JA or Gear effect.

Guess I'll test it some more now, but just to clear things up, I have already tried ZRA on some of my rifles and gunblades before, and their damage per hit wouldn't even budge, while machinegun damage would immediately increase by a noticeable amount. It's not like I just started saying that this skill only works on machineguns because I had nothing better to do without even testing it first.

gigawuts

Oct 1, 2012, 06:31 AM

That modifier can mean either increasing atk, which can then be modified by def, or increasing actual applied damage. A good example of this is JA Tech Bonus versus wise/brave stance - it seems JA Tech Bonus modifies atk, but wise/brave stance most definitely modify whatever your damage dealt is without touching atk and so not being affected by def.

(I reference JA Tech Bonus because it modifies resta, which isn't done with tech charge bonus - I'm sure someone more familiar with force testing can be more specific)

Sp-24

Oct 1, 2012, 06:32 AM

Reposting my edit as a separate post:

Just did a quick test with whatever I could grab as fast as I could in Hard Underground Complex. Sniper (the weak rifle) would do 13-17 damage no matter the distance. Full Cylinder averaged at 22 damage, again, no matter the distance. Alba Repeater would, conveniently, deal 17 damage per hit far away from an enemy and 22 per hit when up close. None of those were affected by JA or Gear. I'll take some screenshots now.

Onvirtual

Oct 1, 2012, 06:34 AM

Do give it another try. I've tested it and saw it numerous time enough to convince me that it works.

The only problem left with ZHA, is that how close exactly you have to be for it to take effect. My 2nd picture shows that I have to be THAT close to get the effect of ZHA. Not sure the maximum range for it (I'm hoping the same range as Diffuse Shell).

EDIT:
Guess I'll test it some more now, but just to clear things up, I have already tried ZRA on some of my rifles and gunblades before, and their damage per hit wouldn't even budge, while machinegun damage would immediately increase by a noticeable amount. It's not like I just started saying that this skill only works on machineguns because I had nothing better to do without even testing it first.

Try test this at the range shown on my 2nd picture.

Sp-24

Oct 1, 2012, 06:45 AM

Just tried it on my hardest-hitting (per hit) ranged weapon, which, unfortunately, would be Ray Duplex. 64 is the maximum amount of damage it deals, up close or very far away. 64*1.05 is 67 (rounded down) so I think that it not dealing that much when all of my machineguns get an increase of a few points even if they are dealing a puny 10 damage per hit pretty much proves that ZRA only works for machineguns.

OK, there:
[spoiler-box]Gunblade:

When close to an enemy:
http://imageshack.us/a/img832/9145/gunbladeclose.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/a/img832/9145/gunbladeclose.jpg)

A little further away:
http://imageshack.us/a/img840/3582/gunbladefar.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/a/img840/3582/gunbladefar.jpg)
http://imageshack.us/a/img37/9946/gunbladefar1.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/a/img37/9946/gunbladefar1.jpg) <- that's an 82, and it appeared more often that these screenshots make it seem

Rifle:
http://imageshack.us/a/img411/694/riflefar.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/a/img411/694/riflefar.jpg)
http://imageshack.us/a/img29/1121/rifleclose.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/a/img29/1121/rifleclose.jpg)

Machinegun:
http://imageshack.us/a/img208/359/machinegunfar.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/a/img208/359/machinegunfar.jpg)
http://imageshack.us/a/img6/9831/machinegunclose.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/a/img6/9831/machinegunclose.jpg)[/spoiler-box]

EDIT: OK, now I tried to use it point blank (as in, way closer than what it takes for machineguns to get more powerful), and I think that the damage might be going up after all. I'll do even more tests when I'm not lazy, I guess, but for now, Onvirtual may have been right all along.

Onvirtual

Oct 1, 2012, 08:28 AM

That's the point I made. It seems your 1st picture with the gunblade, you were actually quite close to Glinatch thus the damage increased. Other pictures with rifles and machinguns, you weren't close enough to notice the difference.

The range of your 1st picture with the gunblade seems to be the max range for ZRA to take into effect. I need to test it too.

Saffran

Oct 1, 2012, 11:46 AM

"ZERO" range attack, indeed, then?

I guess the clues were written all over it...

gigawuts

Oct 1, 2012, 01:55 PM

So, what, ZRA is a buff to the point blank gunner PA's like standing snipe is a universal buff to launcher when on the ground?

Sp-24

Oct 1, 2012, 02:08 PM

It very well may be that. While it would only really benefit a handful of PAs if that's the case, they are all the best ones, like Diffuse Bullet, One Point and NOT Thrillplode (unfortunately). I still haven't tested it further, but those numbers from 10 hours ago did seem to go up on average and, conveniently, they did that almost precisely by 5%.

To clear the doubt, could anybody with those weird universally available machineguns (dropped by Garongo) do a similar test on some class other than Gunner? That increased damage when up close that I saw before may be the weapon's feature.

Coatl

Oct 1, 2012, 05:42 PM

Not sure if this was covered in this, but does Zero Range advance boost the power of your rifle and gunslash as well?

Takatsuki

Oct 1, 2012, 06:40 PM

http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/gunner.html?01GU!IOI2Ib2XqsIkIbf
This is my current Gunner build. I have 3 points to spend. Do I:
A) Put 2 points into Chain Trigger and 1 point into Aerial Advance.
B) Put 3 points into Chain Trigger.
C) Put 3 points into R-ATK Up 3.

Onvirtual

Oct 1, 2012, 09:44 PM

Not sure if this was covered in this, but does Zero Range advance boost the power of your rifle and gunslash as well?

You missed our lengthy discussion regarding this from page 18-19.

otaku998

Oct 1, 2012, 09:54 PM

So let me get this straight, from the discussion, you need to get really really close for Zero Range bonus to apply?

kyojin

Oct 1, 2012, 10:13 PM

i did another test using the weaps that can be used by Gus
Twizzler(gs), Sarcueid(tm), and Divulcan(rf) [no JA, max ZRA]

ZRA does apply to gunslashes and rifle. . . but there is a catch (you have to be at point blank range, close enough to kiss the enemy's face)
so its close (see my pun there :3) to no benefit at all aside from Twin Mechs.

ZRA is a merciful on Twin mechs since it applies to mid-range (about 4 steps away) and gains another boost at point blank

Rifle:
-Far
[spoiler-box]http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo11/alkohol70/RF_far11.jpg[/spoiler-box]
-Mid
[spoiler-box]http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo11/alkohol70/RF_mid11.jpg[/spoiler-box]
-Close
[spoiler-box]http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo11/alkohol70/RF_close11.jpg[/spoiler-box]
-Point Bank
[spoiler-box]http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo11/alkohol70/RF_PB11.jpg[/spoiler-box]
GunSlash:
-Far
[spoiler-box]http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo11/alkohol70/GS_FAr11.jpg[/spoiler-box]
-Mid
[spoiler-box]http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo11/alkohol70/GS_Mid11.jpg[/spoiler-box]
-Close
[spoiler-box]http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo11/alkohol70/GS_Close11.jpg[/spoiler-box]
-Point Bank
[spoiler-box]http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo11/alkohol70/GS_BP11.jpg[/spoiler-box]
Twin Mechs:
-Far
[spoiler-box]http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo11/alkohol70/TM_Far1.jpg[/spoiler-box]
-Mid (notice that the buff already applies to this range)
[spoiler-box]http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo11/alkohol70/TM_Mid1.jpg[/spoiler-box]
-Close
[spoiler-box]http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo11/alkohol70/TM_Close1.jpg[/spoiler-box]
-Point Bank (and gains another boost at point blank range)
[spoiler-box]http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo11/alkohol70/TM_PB1.jpg[/spoiler-box]

otaku998

Oct 1, 2012, 11:38 PM

Feel like the bonus is not big enough for me to put 10 points into it, but then i have already done it..

Also i didn't know Reverse Tap can stun enemies, lol

IndigoNovember

Oct 2, 2012, 12:43 AM

Feel like the bonus is not big enough for me to put 10 points into it, but then i have already done it..

It is only 15% increase. Aerial Advance is a bit better at 20% increase, but you have to launch your enemies and keep them in the air.

otaku998

Oct 2, 2012, 12:48 AM

Yea i meant, at first i was pretty positive that 15% would be still quite a decent amount but then after running around for a while it hit me that the bonus is not that big and the TMG gear is not really helping either. lol

Just some ranting, overall it is still ok and yea more viable than aerial advance which doesn't even work on bosses.

I also wish they had made the hitbox of Messiah Time bigger, i am so itching to use it everytime i see a group of mob but it practically doesn't help so yea....it is slow, it hardly hit anything and you can still get hit during the process. At least it should have bigger range, sigh

Pillan

Oct 2, 2012, 07:58 PM

For those discouraged on the 15%:

If your ranged attack is higher than 333, the 15% boost adds more than the +50 to the stat from the various "[insert attack] Up" traps.

Sp-24

Oct 2, 2012, 09:35 PM

The problem is that you must be closer to your target than even the knuckles users for it to work, and that's with a ranged weapon. Obvious Satellite Aim aside, it would be very hard to put this skill to good use. And no, I'm still not sure if disproportionate damage bonus at a reasonable distance that machineguns get is a weapon feature or Zero Range Advance's effect. If anybody here has Ares Vis and some time on their hands, I will still mind you testing this with another class exactly as much as I did before.

Pillan

Oct 2, 2012, 09:44 PM

I did not realize it was possible to use a machinegun photon art without automatically qualifying for the Zero Range Advance bonus.

That said, I found it to be the most useful of the skills thus far. Keeping an enemy in the air or actually getting a chain off on a boss before it goes underground have been less than ideal. But, then again, I got pretty dissatisfied with Gunner due to how ineffective the chain system is and just jumped ship to Fighter.

otaku998

Oct 2, 2012, 11:55 PM

I think i have problem with Gunner's PAs overall and the lack of a new second weapon for the class rather than the skill tree itself.

Dinosaur

Oct 3, 2012, 12:12 AM

That said, I found it to be the most useful of the skills thus far.

Uh... Don't you mean PP attack restore?

valmont

Oct 3, 2012, 04:50 AM

I think i have problem with Gunner's PAs overall and the lack of a new second weapon for the class rather than the skill tree itself.

use jumping satellite aim all the time!! XD
aerial shooting to close in to enemies..
and dead approach to close in to bosses..
for enemies that doesnt need to be knockdown'ed like gu/ga wondas, just spam reverse tap..

pallete suggestion:
for mobs : aerial shooting > satellite aim > satellite aim
for bossing : dead approach > satellite aim > satellite aim
when you're already close to the enemies/bosses : satellite aim x3
for annoying enemies that hide their weak point when KD'ed : reverse tap x3

hope this helps.. XD

Pillan

Oct 3, 2012, 07:26 AM

Uh... Don't you mean PP attack restore?

It would depend on play style. Generally, things die before I run out of PP and my PP is full before I use the next photon art on the next spawn. The only case where I would really see that coming up is bosses, but then they go underground and move out of machinegun special range. And by the time I am back in position, my PP is full. And chain means your PP is full regardless.

In the case where I was actually running low and wanted to use more photon arts, I would agree. I just have not found that case very consistent as gunner. Subclassing gunner with anything else, however, I would probably agree with you.

otaku998

Oct 3, 2012, 09:28 AM

valmont

Oct 3, 2012, 12:29 PM

satellite aim range is just like rifle PA diffuse shell(shotgun like)..
maybe 1-2 steps from your character?
and if possible use satellite aim while jumping, its faster and can hit wider..

use dead approach on bosses..
for mobs use aerial shooting instead.. >.<
guess my post kinda messy.. im gonna edit it..

but if you're really hate diggus you can spam dead approach on them for fun.. XD

gigawuts

Oct 3, 2012, 02:52 PM

Any tips to get a hold of the range of Satellite Aim? I keep missing the range of the shot sometimes. Well there is the old saying practice makes perfect...but eh o3o

And can i also get a tip on Dead Approach? Like how to get combo after it on mobs? They get bounced really far.

@Valmont thanks xD

I keep satellite aimx3 ready for boss weak points, but otherwise stick with the ones with better range or mobility. If you want to use it on ordinary mobs, try the kick PA then satellite aim. I'd say dead approach, but what with the knockback and all...

otaku998

Oct 4, 2012, 12:47 AM

I think i am getting a hang of it. Thanks
I guess what hurt me was that i was so stuck up in fighting as ranged-weapon user despite knowing that it should be melee like. Still trying to adapt to shooting at melee-range while unable to stun enemies, i mean normal attack. Got hit sometimes cause of that.
From the look of it, one of the new PA shown in the new clip has better range than Satellite Aim + same juggling ability, hope it has good dmg too.

yunamon

Oct 4, 2012, 01:22 AM

otaku998

Oct 4, 2012, 01:24 AM

Yea i know, i mentioned that in my post at previous page lol. I clearly stated that i was shooting normal attack at melee range and forgetting that it wouldn't stun like normal melee does.

valmont

Oct 4, 2012, 05:45 AM

i think yunamon misunderstood.. >.>
maybe you should use another words like stagger/flinching instead of stun.. XD

on topic, i really hope the new PAs will have a good AoE.. XD

otaku998

Oct 4, 2012, 06:24 AM

Yea i supposed my wording was somewhat...really wrong. Should have been flinching, my bad. And I am still a bit on the fence about the Chain Trigger/Finisher thingy

Can someone explain it in details how this works for me? I mean i might have seen some info on it during the threads but it still kinda remains unclear to me. Thanks

Coatl

Oct 4, 2012, 09:08 AM

My Weapon palletes go like this:

Dead Approach > Dead Approach > Dead Approach
Satelite Aim > Aerial shooting > Reverse trap
Bullet squal > Bullet Squal > Bullet Squal

This new PA coming out is going to have me re-think this setup. :I Messiah Time is useless so I don't bother with it.
Coming from only playing Force/techer and Ranger, I love being able to use pretty much any skill at any given time, which is why I have 3 weapon palletes for every melee weapon I'm carrying. It's also fun coming up with new combo strings, it keeps combat interesting.

Anybody see a use for the new PA?

otaku998

Oct 4, 2012, 09:45 AM

The new PA feels to be geared toward Ariel Advance passive, juggling enemies on air for a long time and has better range than Satellite Aim it seems.

Triple_S

Oct 4, 2012, 01:41 PM

It's also fun coming up with new combo strings, it keeps combat interesting.

Here's a fun one for you:

Aerial Shooting (fully charged) -> Satellite Aim (I tried Reverse Tap here but they didn't stay in the air long enough) -> Bullet Squall (Mash the skill button like crazy!)

valmont

Oct 4, 2012, 01:46 PM

@otaku998
bout chaining thingy,
1. activate the trigger..
2. do normal attack on one spot continously to raise the hit count combo..
3. use any PA to finish combo..

something to keep in mind,
- when you use PA to finish it, the hit count number will turn to yellow, as long as it still yellow, you can keep on spam PAs for bigger dmg..
- lesser hit count gives lower dmg multiplier but longer yellow number duration..
- higher hit count gives higher damage multiplier but shorter yellow number duration..
- after building chain hit on quartz dragon and he flew away before you can finish it, dont go into rage and punch your monitor.. just be patient and try again.. XD

Triple_S

Oct 4, 2012, 03:52 PM

bout chaining thingy,
1. activate the trigger..
2. do normal attack on one spot continously to raise the hit count combo..
3. use any PA to finish combo..

something to keep in mind,
- when you use PA to finish it, the hit count number will turn to yellow, as long as it still yellow, you can keep on spam PAs for bigger dmg..
- lesser hit count gives lower dmg multiplier but longer yellow number duration..
- higher hit count gives higher damage multiplier but shorter yellow number duration..
- after building chain hit on quartz dragon and he flew away before you can finish it, dont go into rage and punch your monitor.. just be patient and try again.. XD

We know

Exxy

Oct 4, 2012, 04:22 PM

i think yunamon misunderstood.. >.>
maybe you should use another words like stagger/flinching instead of stun.. XD

That's clearly Stun lol

and yeah, looking forward for the new PA's.

Coatl

Oct 4, 2012, 04:49 PM

Here's a fun one for you:

Aerial Shooting (fully charged) -> Satellite Aim (I tried Reverse Tap here but they didn't stay in the air long enough) -> Bullet Squall (Mash the skill button like crazy!)

This one looks like a Ragne Widowmaker.
Definitely trying this, thanks. xD

Zero Range advance seems very underwhelming. It is sort of hard to turn away from maxing chain trigger when the only other useful skills besides TM gear and PP restore is R-atk up..

otaku998

Oct 4, 2012, 05:10 PM

Ah thanks Valmont, that is clear enough. That doesn't seem too bad.

Oh there is something about the Ariel Shooting PA, if you charge it, it deals more dmg with the extra hit and fly higher but the distance it travels on the ground become...shorter than the non-charge version?

valmont

Oct 4, 2012, 05:32 PM

@otaku998 yep, i think it meant for hitting higher target..
im only using the charged version of aerial shooting when i want to lock on vol's back horn..

We know

its for otaku998, i just want to share what i know for helping fellow gunners.. if you're already know good for you then..
i guess its my fault for not adding to whom i post for.. ._.

otaku998

Oct 4, 2012, 05:47 PM

Yea it was for me, sorry if i have been asking a bit much xD

valmont

Oct 5, 2012, 11:36 AM

its okay otaku998, XD
gunner is kinda tricky to play..
so if you have anythin else to ask, just spit it out..
ill try my best to answer it..
kinda sad to see this topic not getting much love like Fighter or Techer does..

ZcRaider

Oct 5, 2012, 08:12 PM

Guess I will hot link here. Didnt see this post up when I initiated mine. Still good stuff in both.

http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201218

Sp-24

Oct 7, 2012, 08:35 AM

Okay, I asked my friend to test this, and kyojin was right - incredible boost in damage that machineguns get is Zero Range Advance's effect. Which probably means that its effect is bugged, either for machineguns, since they get such a disproportionate boost in damage, or for all other ranged weapons, since even melee weapons don't need to be as close to work as ZRA needs for its effect to kick in.

And I'm totally not jealous and just trying to remind everybody that this thread exists. Why would you think that?

Pillan

Oct 7, 2012, 08:53 AM

Has anyone tested whether or not machinegun damage is just naturally affected by range in the same sense that rifle damage/range is naturally affected by movement? We know where zero range applies thanks to the rifle tests and we know that most people have seen a wider effect with machineguns thanks to this discussion thread. I'm wondering if the other effect is just some multiplier based on range, in the same sense that the original PSO reduced gun accuracy as the enemy was further away.

This would explain why you think zero range has a larger effect on machineguns.

NoiseHERO

Oct 7, 2012, 01:11 PM

wait I don't have any distance related mechgun skills...

And the damage already get's higher the closer you are. o_o

valmont

Oct 7, 2012, 01:33 PM

wait I don't have any distance related mechgun skills...

And the damage already get's higher the closer you are. o_o

really? are you sure your not hitting mobs faces? o.O
if this true, then this is why it seems ZRA are more effective on mekguns..

NoiseHERO

Oct 7, 2012, 01:39 PM

really? are you sure your not hitting mobs faces? o.O
if this true, then this is why it seems ZRA are more effective on mekguns..

I guess I could make sure later but yeah...

I usually do like 10-20 damage more the closer I get.

Sp-24

Oct 7, 2012, 03:54 PM

God damn it. Now, it's obvious that either you or my friend is lying. Or that machinegun-distance thing is a Gunner feature. In any case, this game still makes no sense.

gigawuts

Oct 7, 2012, 04:18 PM

A few days ago I did a whole slew of tests, well, more like damage noting, under a variety of conditions. I wanted to hit a good five birds/tests with one stone/night of testing. The results...were enlightening. I wanted to clean them up more and do more testing with other classes, but that isn't really necessary for what I'm posting about just now. I'll get around to that later, the next time my curiosity overtakes me.

(I'm only now cleaning up a few things like fixing enemy names to be what most people call them, so forgive any errors like that - the numbers are all spot on though)

Here they are:
[SPOILER-BOX]

Here are the things worth noting:
Class: Always hunter.
Buffs: None. No shifta, no shifta drink, no fury stance (and thus no fury crit). No NPC's in the area, purely solo, to reduce damage numbers on the screen. Mag does not have any buff trigger actions, all enemies tested are in the same area of the same kind of map (so FC exploration area 1, for instance), and enemy levels are checked each time. I couldn't count the level 39 nordiransas I killed to find more level 38 nordiransas.
Noted attacks: Always second in combo, easier to chain into JA than doing the first attack (which would require a full combo, for four total attacks, versus two and then just intentionally missing JA when not doing JA). This is imortant because mechguns DO have different damages for attacks 1 & 2 in the combo.
Hitbox: Always headshot unless otherwise noted
All noted hits are bluetext crits. Even if I see a thousand identical white text damages, I'm only noting bluetext crits.
All noted numbers were confirmed 3+ times, to be certain results are consistent and accurate, and reduce chance of noting a missed crit.

Okay, here we go:

-----------------

Test Purpose: Comparing JA damage gains, comparing JA Bonus Skill damage gains, comparing long distance damage losses
Weapon: All-Class Mechguns (Ares Vis/アレスヴィス)
Grind: zero
Total Char Stats: 496 R-ATK, 324 ABI
Target: Level 38 Nordiransa (No boosted enemies, all non-infected)

JA Bonus Skill Levels: 10 & 9

Short range JA: 23
Short range non-JA: 23 (Yes really, identical damage, tested repeatedly on other enemies to look for a change)
Long range JA: 18
Long range non-JA: 18
JA/non-JA: 1
Short range JA/Long range JA: 1.28

JA Bonus Skill Levels: 0 & 0

Short range JA: 23
Short range non-JA: 23
Long range JA: 18
Long range non-JA: 18
JA/non-JA: 1
Short/Long: 1.28

Speculation: Mechgun normal attacks do not benefit from JA for some bizarre reason. Mechguns have built in damage falloff.

-----------------

Test Purpose: Comparing JA damage gains, comparing JA Bonus Skill damage gains
Weapon: All-Class Rifle (Bouquet Rifle/ブーケライフル)
Grind: zero
Total Char Stats: 465 R-ATK, 324 ABI
Target: Level 38 Nordiransa (No boosted enemies, all non-infected)

JA Bonus Skill Levels: 10 & 9

Short range JA: 46
Short range non-JA: 30
JA/non-JA: 1.53

JA Bonus Skill Levels: 0 & 0

Short range JA: 39
Short range non-JA: 30
JA/non-JA: 1.3

Conclusions: Pure ranged weapons DO gain from the hunter's JA Bonus Skill.

-----------------

Test Purpose: Comparing JA damage gains, comparing long distance damage losses
Weapon: Gunslash (Jareid/ジャレイド)
Grind: +9
Total Char Stats: 688 R-ATK, 324 ABI
Target: Level 37 Breeder (No boosted enemies, all non-infected, hitting back core instead of face)

JA Bonus to 0 & 0

Short range JA: 193
Short range non-JA: 148
JA/non-JA: 1.304

Long range JA: 154
Long range non-JA: 119
JA/non-JA: 1.294

Short JA / Long JA: 1.253
Short non-JA / Long non-JA: 1.244

Conclusions: JA appears to be a 30% bonus to any damage you deal, not a base stat modifier like PSO1. This is good at high levels, but bad at low levels. There also appears to be built in damage falloff for all ranged weapons. Similar results were observed on a bouquet rifle on hunter, but were not fully tested. Breeders were chosen because they lose aggro at long ranges easily, and stop moving completely.

-----------------

Test Purpose: Comparing JA damage gains, comparing JA Bonus Skill damage gains
Weapon: Gunslash (Jareid/ジャレイド)
Total Char Stats: 688 R-ATK, 324 ABI
Target: Level 38 Nordiransa (No boosted enemies, all non-infected)

JA Bonus Skill Levels: 10 & 9

Short range JA: 214 (this fucking hit took me half an hour to finally get as a crit)
Short range non-JA: 137
JA/non-JA: 1.562

JA Bonus Skill Levels: 0 & 0

Short range JA: 178
Short range non-JA: 137
JA/non-JA: 1.299

Conclusions: Nothing new, just here for completion's sake. We already knew gunslashes benefited from the hunter's JA Bonus Skill.

-----------------

Test Purpose: Bigger numbers for comparing JA damage gains, comparing JA Bonus Skill damage gains
Weapon: Gunslash Aiming Shot (Jareid/ジャレイド)
Grind: +9
Total Char Stats: 688 R-ATK, 324 ABI
Target: Level 38 Nordiransa (No boosted enemies, all non-infected, hitting back core instead of face)

JA Bonus Skill Levels: 10 & 9

Short range JA: 984
Short range non-JA: 631
JA/non-JA: 1.559

JA Bonus Skill Levels: 0 & 0

Short range JA: 821
Short range non-JA: 631
JA/non-JA: 1.301

Short range JAB/Short Range JA:1.199
1.10+1.09=1.19
1.10*1.09=1.199

Conclusions: The hunter's JA Bonus Skill multiplies - it does NOT add. This has been something I've wanted to test for months but never got around to until now. We can now state with certainty that JA Bonus 5 & 5 is better than JA Bonus 10, if you have 15 SP to distribute across the two JA Bonus skills and fury stance.
[/SPOILER-BOX]

So it appears all ranged weapons have a falloff penalty of 20% (or a buff at closer range of 25%, take your pick).

Sp-24

Oct 7, 2012, 04:25 PM

A few days ago I did a whole slew of tests, well, more like damage noting, under a variety of conditions. I wanted to hit a good five birds/tests with one stone/night of testing. The results...were enlightening. I wanted to clean them up more and do more testing with other classes, but that isn't really necessary for what I'm posting about just now. I'll get around to that later, the next time my curiosity overtakes me.

(I'm only now cleaning up a few things like fixing enemy names to be what most people call them, so forgive any errors like that - the numbers are all spot on though)

Here they are:
[spoiler-box]

Here are the things worth noting:
Class: Always hunter.
Buffs: None. No shifta, no shifta drink, no fury stance (and thus no fury crit). No NPC's in the area, purely solo, to reduce damage numbers on the screen. Mag does not have any buff trigger actions, all enemies tested are in the same area of the same kind of map (so FC exploration area 1, for instance), and enemy levels are checked each time. I couldn't count the level 39 nordiransas I killed to find more level 38 nordiransas.
Noted attacks: Always second in combo, easier to chain into JA than doing the first attack (which would require a full combo, for four total attacks, versus two and then just intentionally missing JA when not doing JA). This is imortant because mechguns DO have different damages for attacks 1 & 2 in the combo.
Hitbox: Always headshot unless otherwise noted
All noted hits are bluetext crits. Even if I see a thousand identical white text damages, I'm only noting bluetext crits.
All noted numbers were confirmed 3+ times, to be certain results are consistent and accurate, and reduce chance of noting a missed crit.

Okay, here we go:

-----------------

Test Purpose: Comparing JA damage gains, comparing JA Bonus Skill damage gains, comparing long distance damage losses
Weapon: All-Class Mechguns (Ares Vis/アレスヴィス)
Grind: zero
Total Char Stats: 496 R-ATK, 324 ABI
Target: Level 38 Nordiransa (No boosted enemies, all non-infected)

JA Bonus Skill Levels: 10 & 9

Short range JA: 23
Short range non-JA: 23 (Yes really, identical damage, tested repeatedly on other enemies to look for a change)
Long range JA: 18
Long range non-JA: 18
JA/non-JA: 1
Short range JA/Long range JA: 1.28

JA Bonus Skill Levels: 0 & 0

Short range JA: 23
Short range non-JA: 23
Long range JA: 18
Long range non-JA: 18
JA/non-JA: 1
Short/Long: 1.28

Speculation: Mechgun normal attacks do not benefit from JA for some bizarre reason. Mechguns have built in damage falloff.

-----------------

Test Purpose: Comparing JA damage gains, comparing JA Bonus Skill damage gains
Weapon: All-Class Rifle (Bouquet Rifle/ブーケライフル)
Grind: zero
Total Char Stats: 465 R-ATK, 324 ABI
Target: Level 38 Nordiransa (No boosted enemies, all non-infected)

JA Bonus Skill Levels: 10 & 9

Short range JA: 46
Short range non-JA: 30
JA/non-JA: 1.53

JA Bonus Skill Levels: 0 & 0

Short range JA: 39
Short range non-JA: 30
JA/non-JA: 1.3

Conclusions: Pure ranged weapons DO gain from the hunter's JA Bonus Skill.

-----------------

Test Purpose: Comparing JA damage gains, comparing long distance damage losses
Weapon: Gunslash (Jareid/ジャレイド)
Grind: +9
Total Char Stats: 688 R-ATK, 324 ABI
Target: Level 37 Breeder (No boosted enemies, all non-infected, hitting back core instead of face)

JA Bonus to 0 & 0

Short range JA: 193
Short range non-JA: 148
JA/non-JA: 1.304

Long range JA: 154
Long range non-JA: 119
JA/non-JA: 1.294

Short JA / Long JA: 1.253
Short non-JA / Long non-JA: 1.244

Conclusions: JA appears to be a 30% bonus to any damage you deal, not a base stat modifier like PSO1. This is good at high levels, but bad at low levels. There also appears to be built in damage falloff for all ranged weapons. Similar results were observed on a bouquet rifle on hunter, but were not fully tested. Breeders were chosen because they lose aggro at long ranges easily, and stop moving completely.

-----------------

Test Purpose: Comparing JA damage gains, comparing JA Bonus Skill damage gains
Weapon: Gunslash (Jareid/ジャレイド)
Total Char Stats: 688 R-ATK, 324 ABI
Target: Level 38 Nordiransa (No boosted enemies, all non-infected)

JA Bonus Skill Levels: 10 & 9

Short range JA: 214 (this fucking hit took me half an hour to finally get as a crit)
Short range non-JA: 137
JA/non-JA: 1.562

JA Bonus Skill Levels: 0 & 0

Short range JA: 178
Short range non-JA: 137
JA/non-JA: 1.299

Conclusions: Nothing new, just here for completion's sake. We already knew gunslashes benefited from the hunter's JA Bonus Skill.

-----------------

Test Purpose: Bigger numbers for comparing JA damage gains, comparing JA Bonus Skill damage gains
Weapon: Gunslash Aiming Shot (Jareid/ジャレイド)
Grind: +9
Total Char Stats: 688 R-ATK, 324 ABI
Target: Level 38 Nordiransa (No boosted enemies, all non-infected, hitting back core instead of face)

JA Bonus Skill Levels: 10 & 9

Short range JA: 984
Short range non-JA: 631
JA/non-JA: 1.559

JA Bonus Skill Levels: 0 & 0

Short range JA: 821
Short range non-JA: 631
JA/non-JA: 1.301

Short range JAB/Short Range JA:1.199
1.10+1.09=1.19
1.10*1.09=1.199

Conclusions: The hunter's JA Bonus Skill multiplies - it does NOT add. This has been something I've wanted to test for months but never got around to until now. We can now state with certainty that JA Bonus 5 & 5 is better than JA Bonus 10, if you have 15 SP to distribute across the two JA Bonus skills and fury stance.
[/spoiler-box]

So it appears all ranged weapons have a falloff penalty of 20% (or a buff at closer range of 25%, take your pick).

Whoa, thank you so much. And I want to say that about the whole document, but I've only read the first few lines. Still, I guess that finally settles the ZRA problem.

EDIT: And I feel like I need to add, I haven't noticed any damage increase when moving closer with a gunslash or a rifle when testing this mess. They would alway deal the exact same damage, it's only machineguns that would suddenly get more powerful when you get somewhat close to your enemy.

gigawuts

Oct 7, 2012, 04:36 PM

You should try shooting way, way, way back, at the very edge of the weapon's range. It definitely happens. Since it's so noticeable on mechguns, I mean it feels like it's 50% of the mechguns' range, I'm thinking all ranged weapons have X distance + Y falloff. Falloff may always be 10 meters, for instance. It would be a small distance on gunslashes and rifles (and launchers?), but very noticeable on mechguns, possibly exactly as much as their ordinary range.

This is a common mechanic in many games, so I'm not surprised I found it here.

edit: It's difficult to observe in ordinary gameplay because, well, how often do you nail a crit headshot/weakpointshot at the very maximum range without moving, and then get another at close range on the same hitbox and type of enemy, and then be certain enough in your aim AND be paying enough attention to notice the difference? Generally under these circumstances you'd just be walking closer to use PA's or hit more accurately, thus throwing off your aim while you move. The range with the falloff damage penalty is fairly unnoticeable on rifles and gunslashes because it's so far off. Quite a lot of my testing on that involved backpedaling and then stopping to regain accuracy for 2-3 shots.

edit2: Also, all guns' normal attack accuracies are affected by movement, barring perhaps only launchers.

kyojin

Oct 7, 2012, 05:06 PM

^
thanks for the research!

i wasn't really able to test out on the dmg gain on Twin mechs between long and mid range (w/o the effects of the ZRA) since i don't have the all class weap to test with.

i hope with this test clears out some info on the effects of ZRA

jooozek

Oct 7, 2012, 05:19 PM

Awesome to see proper testing done, props to you gigawuts 8-)

valmont

Oct 8, 2012, 01:29 AM

wow.. thanks a lot gigawuts!
i never expect even rifle got bonuses from close range.
one thing that i dont understand, why mekguns normal attack doesnt benefit from JA.
hmm.. that explain why shift dodge cant be JA'ed. i guess normal attack and shift dodge attack only for restoring PP and building chains then.
oh.. also thanks for Rock Eastwood for pointing this out on the first place. xD

Xaeris

Oct 10, 2012, 05:34 AM

They fiddled around with Twin Machine Gun Gear. Now, taking damage doesn't necessarily reset it all the way to 0. I'm not sure exactly what they changed, whether the gear loss now scales with damage or what, as I didn't get enough playtime in to deduce it. Keep an eye for it guys, and see if you can figure out what the gimmick is now.

gigawuts

Oct 10, 2012, 05:36 AM

Anyone know what the new gunner skill below Chain Finish is? It's オートメイトデッドライン, which looks like it says Automate Deadline to me. If it's anything like hunter's Automate Halfline (which auto-heals with your smallest mate item, without an animation) then it might...autorevive? Or maybe it autoheals at 25%? Surely "dead" doesn't actually mean dead.

Another change is the addition of ZRA 2.

Crystal_Shard

Oct 10, 2012, 05:43 AM

Automate Deadline in PSPo2i would activate a mate if you were reduced to 25% of your health I think. Basically when your HP and screen turn red I would think.

otaku998

Oct 10, 2012, 05:49 AM

I wish it was something else and not automate deadline lol

And it seems Messiah Time has bigger hit box now, or it is just me, just suddenly the bullets are able to get in more often now

Sp-24

Oct 10, 2012, 07:32 AM

I still haven't come across new PAs. They have been added, haven't they?

And it's good news about Spinning Death. I like consistency, but I'd like it even more if that PA stops being useless for once.

otaku998

Oct 10, 2012, 07:41 AM

Spinning Death? ._. Did i miss this nickname somewhere, Bullet Squall or Messiah Time?

Edit : Oh yeaa they fixed Messiah Time, now it is cool max. And the Gear buff is pretty nice too, even if you make some mistake and get hit 1-2 times you still keep your gear level or at least didn't go down that much

Sp-24

Oct 10, 2012, 08:48 AM

As for this "Automate Deadline" skill, its description says that it automatically uses a Mate item when your HP falls below 25%. With any luck, it's going to do exactly what it says.

And now I'm torn between finishing Coffee's orders and trying out Gunner's stuff to see what's changed (no way I'm going to the kitties as anything other than Force)...

Artificial Sky

Oct 10, 2012, 09:46 AM

Gunner now has JA after each of its dodges. What a god send.

Wow, they really fixed this class up. Now, whenever you lock on, your shift-dodges will revolve around your target, instead of fixing into one direction.

IndigoNovember

Oct 10, 2012, 11:12 AM

Spinning Death? ._. Did i miss this nickname somewhere, Bullet Squall or Messiah Time?

"Spinning Death" is Sp-24's name for Messiah Time. If you ask why, the response will probably just be "Spinning Death" is "Spinning Death" ┐('～`；)┌ .

Anybody else find it a bit odd that Gunner's get Automate Deadline when they don't have that much health to begin with? I seem to either take no damage or die immediately, very rarely getting down to 25% or under...

otaku998

Oct 10, 2012, 11:17 AM

Liek stated above, i feel like it is better off replaced by something else too lol

Kirbylovedebug

Oct 10, 2012, 11:19 AM

Anyone else noticing a delay that prevents you from dodging after satellite aim now?Or am I seeing things?
Video For reference (video is from before this update)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLmnafOuvF0

Sp-24

Oct 10, 2012, 11:41 AM

"Spinning Death" is Sp-24's name for Messiah Time. If you ask why, the response will probably just be "Spinning Death" is "Spinning Death" ┐('～`；)┌ .

It's called "Spinning Death" in the NA version of PSZ, therefore it's called "Spinning Death" here, unless localisation team decides otherwise this time.

Anybody else find it a bit odd that Gunner's get Automate Deadline when they don't have that much health to begin with? I seem to either take no damage or die immediately, very rarely getting down to 25% or under...

Well, the amount of HP hasn't got much to do with it. Gunner is a melee class, it needs some form of defense, and it gets it. Makes sense to me, since Satellite Aiming point blank isn't the safest thing to do (but Sega making sense, now that's odd).

Kirbylovedebug

Oct 10, 2012, 11:56 AM

Anyone got % on the new zero range atk increase?(also it be nice to if I am just crazy with my previous question)