Trying to figure out numbers on shifta and deband

[SonicRemedy]

OK, so I wanted to ask the other players if my numbers or off or if something is up. Here are my current stats.

So I check with and with out equipment and the numerical difference is stats was identical so I will just post the info with weapons. Here is the listing.

Current Lvl.24

Shifta Lv.6
Original Stats-
SATK - 456
RATK - 296
TATK - 715

Buffed Stats-
SATK - 502
RATK - 347
TATK - 778

Numerical Difference-
SATK - 46
RATK - 51
TATK - 63


Deband Lv.6
Original Stats-
SDEF - 379
RDEF - 371
TDEF - 422

Buffed Stats-
SDEF - 425
RDEF - 415
TDEF - 474

Numerical Differences-
SDEF - 46
RDEF - 44
TDEF - 52

So, with that on the plate I have determined that it is not a percentile boost to stats but a numerical boost. However here is my question, is there a table listing the boosts. I haven't found it and my search fu is weak.

[Slidikins]

I'll take a glance at the numbers myself when I get home, but might I suggest handling Shifta and Deband separately in your research? It's only proper to only have one variable in your studies, after all.

[SonicRemedy]

I'll take a glance at the numbers myself when I get home, but might I suggest handling Shifta and Deband separately in your research? It's only proper to only have one variable in your studies, after all.
Quite right, I will go ahead and separate the above data. Also thanks for the assistance.

[Carillon]

if the weapon attack isn't affecting it, would likely be better to look at the weapon-less numbers.

edit: testing it myself w/o gear. shifta/deband 5, with 184 "power". all the stats they affect were increased by 18.4%.
gear/affixs appear to be ignored. mag/skilltree stats appear to be boosted tho.

[SonicRemedy]

if the weapon attack isn't affecting it, would likely be better to look at the weapon-less numbers.

edit: testing it myself w/o gear. shifta/deband 5, with 184 "power". all the stats they affect were increased by 18.4%.
gear/affixs appear to be ignored. mag/skilltree stats appear to be boosted tho.

Interesting, I will have to run the numbers again without my mag. I did test with and without gear and while percentage without the gear is technically higher its because the static increase is the same with or without. So its true that gear is ignored. However, I didn't test it without my mag, if the stat bonus are the same this would lead me to believe that bonuses are in fact static and tied to a table of values based on the level of the buff.

[Slidikins]

Using Lv8 Shifta and Deband here's what I'm getting on my character:
(Note: After taking lots of data, Shifta only affects ATK stats while Deband only affects DEF stats. HP, PP, and Ability are unaffected. As such, I combined the charts again.)

Control:
Lv26 FOmarl

STAT BASE W/Lv8 GAIN GAIN %
S-ATK 243 288 45 18.52%
R-ATK 282 335 53 18.79%
T-ATK 326 387 61 18.71%
S-DEF 243 288 45 18.52%
R-DEF 243 288 45 18.52%
T-DEF 319 379 60 18.81%
Shifta and Deband Lv8 seem to give me around a 18.5% boost. There's probably some rounding going on here, but it's fairly regular.

Experiment 1: With a MAG

STAT W/MAG W/Lv8 GAIN GAIN %
S-ATK 243 288 45 18.52%
R-ATK 282 335 53 18.79%
T-ATK 386 458 72 18.65%
S-DEF 243 288 45 18.52%
R-DEF 243 288 45 18.52%
T-DEF 363 431 68 18.73%
Observation: Percents look similar, but the raw gain is different. SonicRemedy's idea that the boost is flat seems to be disproven already.
Conclusion: Mag stats are affected by S/D. Mags add to base stats so that was expected.

Experiment 2: With Gear (no Mag)

STAT GEAR W/Lv8 GAIN GAIN %
S-ATK 470 515 45 9.57%
R-ATK 292 345 53 18.15%
T-ATK 711 772 61 8.58%
S-DEF 437 482 45 10.30%
R-DEF 403 448 45 11.17%
T-DEF 567 627 60 10.58%
Observation: Same raw gain from the Control. (Percent gain obviously less as a result.)
Conclusion: Gear (and its attributes) are not affected by Shifta or Deband

Experiment 3: Mag + Gear
Prediction: Same raw gain from experiment #1

STAT ALL W/Lv8 GAIN GAIN %
S-ATK 470 515 45 9.57%
R-ATK 292 345 53 18.15%
T-ATK 771 843 72 9.34%
S-DEF 437 482 45 10.30%
R-DEF 403 448 45 11.17%
T-DEF 611 679 68 11.13%
Observation: Just as predicted.
Conclusion: Shifta and Deband are percentage based increases but do not affect equipment.

[Omega-z]

Hi, I did the work on this last night. Pre-patch S&D was also effected by weapon's/armor/affixes by the way but now they aren't. The only thing that does is your Mag. And for some reason the duration is weird now. Say you do a Charged buff and sit there longer then normal and you still get the 30 sec.....but not all the time tho and can get the full 1 min. So you'll need to double boost with normal non-charged. That's all for the changes from the patch.

Now on to the fun stuff, Normal rate of S&D is your base+Mag x 1.89% (Lv.10 disc)= Boost rate. Now if you get any of the add-on effectiveness ones. They boost the base rate of S&D by 20% or 2% for each Lv. for grand total of 2.09% so given you a newer boost. Then if you get the other two. One increases your attack dmg by 10% base on your dmg. and for the other one reduces 10% of the foe's dmg base on it's dmg too. + a cool looking barrier with each cast.
I hope this helps.:):rappy:

[Mystil]

I guess they don't wont SD to be as powerful as it was in the predecessors.

[Omega-z]

S&D where debuffed so yeah I agree with that too. Oh Slidikins your right about the %'s of the gain (I believe it's 19% at Lv.10). Was getting close to +400 in S-Def with Force Pre-patch and getting pretty close to high hunter Def. Maybe that's the reason why for the debuff perhaps? All those Hunter's crying that a force is better in taking damage then them lol.Who know's

[Ana-Chan]

There is some dicrepencies that I've found here and there, but it is mainly a percentage boost.

Have you noticed the power of shifta and deband? At level 6 they are 185, this should end up as an increase of 18.5% to the stats. The game generally truncates too, so if you end up with a stat at say 340.25 then it will be 340.

The discrepencies that I noted makes me wonder if the element masteries actually plays a role in the buffs too. The reason I say this is at level 40 the force's base defences are

S-Def: 288
R-Def: 288
T-Def: 378

Casting deband level 5 (which as tech power 184) should mean that what you get out of it is

S-Def: 340 (340.992)
R-Def: 340 (340.992)
T-Def: 447 (447.552)

But they all end up one higher. So either they have started rounding recently, or the ice mastery skill plays a part in it. Either way, it is close enough to see that it is a percentage increase on the base stats.

[SonicRemedy]

Upon further consideration of Carillon I tested possible combinations of:
No Equips/Mag, No Armor or Mag, No Weapon or Mag, and finally No Weapon and Armor. Interesting enough it seems as though (as far as I can test) that Shifta is affected my my mag. Now, this only accounts for me as the target. I need to access my friends computer and cast it to see if this is a universal bonus or per player bonus. Here are the numbers for your consideration:

No Weapon, Mag, or Armor (For sake of room and time let it be known that the combinations of just armor and just weapon were numerically the same on the difference in stat bonus)
((For a summarized of the finding please look past the wall of numbers))
Shifta Lv.6

SATK
Original
248
Bonus
294
Difference
46

RATK
Original
276
Bonus
327
Difference
51

TATK
Original
298
Bonus
353
Difference
55


Deband 6

SDEF
Original
248
Bonus
294
Difference
46

RDEF
Original
237
Bonus
281
Difference
44

TDEF
Original
281
Bonus
333
Difference
52

However with a mag equipped:
Shifta Lv.6

SATK
Original
248
Bonus
294
Difference
46

RATK
Original
276
Bonus
327
Difference
51

TATK
Original
340
Bonus
403
Difference
63


Deband 6

SDEF
Original
248
Bonus
294
Difference
46

RDEF
Original
237
Bonus
281
Difference
44

TDEF
Original
281
Bonus
333
Difference
52

So it looks like your mag is affecting at least your shifta. Now for your deband, that is another question that bears further study. So my hypothesis is that for every 6 points in one stat you gain an addition point when under the affect of shift/deband.

[SonicRemedy]

Sorry for the wall of text above, posted after all of your posts but stated before you guys posted XD

[SonicRemedy]

Using Lv8 Shifta and Deband here's what I'm getting on my character:
(Note: After taking lots of data, Shifta only affects ATK stats while Deband only affects DEF stats. HP, PP, and Ability are unaffected. As such, I combined the charts again.)

Control:
Lv26 FOmarl

STAT BASE W/Lv8 GAIN GAIN %
S-ATK 243 288 45 18.52%
R-ATK 282 335 53 18.79%
T-ATK 326 387 61 18.71%
S-DEF 243 288 45 18.52%
R-DEF 243 288 45 18.52%
T-DEF 319 379 60 18.81%
Shifta and Deband Lv8 seem to give me around a 18.5% boost. There's probably some rounding going on here, but it's fairly regular.

Experiment 1: With a MAG

STAT W/MAG W/Lv8 GAIN GAIN %
S-ATK 243 288 45 18.52%
R-ATK 282 335 53 18.79%
T-ATK 386 458 72 18.65%
S-DEF 243 288 45 18.52%
R-DEF 243 288 45 18.52%
T-DEF 363 431 68 18.73%
Observation: Percents look similar, but the raw gain is different. SonicRemedy's idea that the boost is flat seems to be disproven already.
Conclusion: Mag stats are affected by S/D. Mags add to base stats so that was expected.

Experiment 2: With Gear (no Mag)

STAT GEAR W/Lv8 GAIN GAIN %
S-ATK 470 515 45 9.57%
R-ATK 292 345 53 18.15%
T-ATK 711 772 61 8.58%
S-DEF 437 482 45 10.30%
R-DEF 403 448 45 11.17%
T-DEF 567 627 60 10.58%
Observation: Same raw gain from the Control. (Percent gain obviously less as a result.)
Conclusion: Gear (and its attributes) are not affected by Shifta or Deband

Experiment 3: Mag + Gear
Prediction: Same raw gain from experiment #1

STAT ALL W/Lv8 GAIN GAIN %
S-ATK 470 515 45 9.57%
R-ATK 292 345 53 18.15%
T-ATK 771 843 72 9.34%
S-DEF 437 482 45 10.30%
R-DEF 403 448 45 11.17%
T-DEF 611 679 68 11.13%
Observation: Just as predicted.
Conclusion: Shifta and Deband are percentage based increases but do not affect equipment.

For data sake, can I ask what your mags levels are at?

[Ana-Chan]

That shouldn't matter too much, the boost to S&D is on the base stats. Things on the skill tree and the mag adds to base stats where weapons and units doesn't.

So any percentage increases will be in reference to the characters base stats which are race/class base + skill tree + mag.

[Omega-z]

Ana-Chan - they do round up or down, been like this form the start.

SonicRemedy - Pre-Patch S&D was effect by Weapons/Armors/Mag/Affixes and Base stats and Skill Tree base increases.

Now - just the Mag/ Base stats and Skill Tree base increases.

[Ana-Chan]

Ana-Chan - they do round up or down, been like this form the start.

SonicRemedy - Pre-Patch S&D was effect by Weapons/Armors/Mag/Affixes and Base stats and Skill Tree base increases.

Now - just the Mag/ Base stats and Skill Tree base increases.

So they round for stats but truncate for grinding. Nice SEGA.

But I guess that was their solution to fixing the S&D stat problems when you changed equipment. Since they were getting it wrong, just don't take equipment into consideration.

[Omega-z]

lol, Yeah your right Sega has a hard time. That was my thought on that too about the bug equipment too and this is there solution to it ( which is.....meh.ok). But the last thing that I need to check is the Bug with changing block's with S&D and see if it's still there..hmmm.

[Slidikins]

For data sake, can I ask what your mags levels are at?

That particular mag is a Lv122 Apus with:
60 T-ATK, 18 Ability, and 44 T-DEF

[SonicRemedy]

So something interesting came up. I follow what you two are saying and looking at the percentiles this seems all correct. Having said that a on a friends hunter I tested just shifta:

With a Mag


Stat Original Buffed Difference Percentage
SATK 476 527 51 10.7
RATK 231 274 43 18.6
TATK 200 237 37 18.5


So even with variance thats only a 10% increase in SATK?! So just to be sure I tried without a mag:



Stat Original Buffed Difference Percentage
SATK 472 522 50 10.59
RATK 231 274 43 18.6
TATK 200 237 37 18.5


Is there a known reason for such a variance. Now admittedly that was with a weapon equiped. Since he was lower level do you think he was hitting the highest variance his base could go?

[Ana-Chan]

No, the weapon just isn't counted.

From what you gave, the base S-Atk is actually around 275, this is 275 +/- 5 because of the rounding involved, but you will have to unequip the weapon too.

*Edit*

A bit more information on how the stats adds up. This is from my level 40 force. The shifta used is level 6, which has the power of 185, so that means that all stat boosts will be by 18.5% and then rounded to nearest.


Weapon Alba Forlonce +10 (or whatever it is, the most powerful of the Alba rod family)
S-Atk: 324
T-Atk: 461 (441 + 20 from technique 2)

Unit
S-Atk: 15 (ability 1 on all 3 units)
R-Atk: 15 (ability 1 on all 3 units)
T-Atk: 15 (ability 1 on all 3 units)

UB = Unbuffed
B = Buffed
I = Increase
% = Percentage increase

Base UB B I %
S-Atk: 288 341 53 18.4
R-Atk: 330 391 61 18.48
T-Atk: 505 598 93 18.42

Total
S-Atk: 627 680 53 8.45
R-Atk: 345 406 61 17.68
T-Atk: 981 1074 93 9.48

So, my T-Atk is at 505 because of the mag and T-Atk up on the skill tree. So to get to the final stats, for T-Atk it is

505 Base increased by 18.5% which is 598.425 rounded to nearest (598 T-Atk). Then the rest is added on. So 598 + 15 + 461 = 1074. Which is exactly what my buffed T-Atk is.

This is why I said that weapons don't matter in the shifta.

*Edit 2*

Forgot to also mention, the level 40 T-Atk for my character is 396.

If you was to increase this by 18.5% then you would get 469.26 rounded to 469 which is a 73 T-Atk increase and a 18.43% increase. Since my above base stats are at 505 (109 points higher, which adds up to the combined 75 T-Atk from the mag and 34 T-Atk from T-Atk up), and the increase in stats also goes up, this serves as extra proof that the increses from the skill tree and the mag adds to the base stats and are included when you use shifta.

So to put it in a way which is easier to read.


Race/Class (Newman Female Force level 40)

(This is the absolute base, this is the class base stat with the racial modifier applied)
Base UB B I %
T-Atk: 396 469 73 18.43

(This is the base with skill tree bonus only)
Base UB B I %
T-Atk: 430 510 80 18.60

(This is the base with the mag bonus only)
Base UB B I %
T-Atk: 471 558 87 18.47

(This is the base stat with the skill tree bonus and mag bonus)
Mod UB B I %
T-Atk: 505 598 93 18.42

As you can see from this, the only way to get the same stat increase is with both the skill tree bonus and the mag bonus applied.
I hope this demystifies shifta and deband for you (deband works in the same way).

[IzzyData]

Good to know that 10/10 t-atk skill is more useful than just equipment requirements.

[SonicRemedy]

Thanks for the info Ana-Chan :D That clears it up much better. Also, out of curiosity is there a way to monitor your chance to critically hit yet?