New Force player with a lot of questions..

[Regis757]

Hi I have a force (currently level 4) with points into the fire skill tree.

3 in t atk up
5 in flame mastery I
3 in flame tech s-charge
1 in tech charge adv I

My goal for this character is to just hit like a truck. I was thinking of sub-classing techer and going down the dark tree and getting poison ignition and going down light-tree to get elemental weak point hit. In the force tree (main I guess..) I was planning to get the charged technique up and using dark and fire techniques whenever possible but prioritizing elemental weaknesses above those.

Here are my questions:
Does this idea seem viable for maxing out force damage? i will also probably get T-atk to high levels where applicable in both trees..

Should I make my mag totally pure T-atk or should I mix in ability as well?

Is it better to have techer main and force sub-class? (I don't really understand how the sub-class system works at the moment and can't find any info on it so a brief explanation on the details of this would be appreciated)

How much of an increase would I see if I maxed out a specific element's damage skill? (like flame mastery I)

Let me know what you think. Thanks..



EDIT -- Sorry for posting this in the guide section, had multiple tabs open and clicked new thread in the wrong tab. If this needs to be moved to the general section please feel free to move it.

[Digital Satyr]

Your force tree is either maxed fire damage or mostly the fire path and JA advance in lighting, if you want to optimaize your damage like that. Unless you need T-defense or ability to equip an item, make your mag all T-attack. Other than weapon restrictions, maining force or techer only matters for defense stats you want. All the bonus damage to an element is multiplicative, so just calculate whatever you would have with the build you choose.

[Regis757]

Here are two possible skill trees I was thinking of but I'm not sure how good some skills are compared to others. For example how good is elemental weakpoint? Would it be a better use of points to get T-atk 2 and/or max out the dark tree due to the high base damage of dark? Let me know what you think of these and how you would change them. I also like the dark skills and that's why I'm inclined to raise the damage on them. I guess it just comes down to can I deal more damage by getting the T-atk boosts as opposed to going down the dark tree.

http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.html?uAIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIbIn00000 0ib00000ib00000ib0000GOHk2TIk00006GBIdIdcFIdI2a200 00

http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.html?uAIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIbIn00000 0ib00000ib00000ib0000GBHXdscJ00006tB7dI2HSrKI20006

[Miraclearrow]

Hey, personally there are some adjustments I would make with your tree. Firstly, one of the most important skills to get is PP restorate with your techer subclass. You will notice when casting a lot you NEED the PP boosts. Its a must. Secondly, you gain more damage from flame mastery then you will from burn boost. So you should get flame mastery 1 and 2 maxed as well as Flame tech S charge so you can spam the spells faster. Because statistically your fire spells are doing a ton of damage and you're casting them extremly fast. And fire right now is the best tree in the game as a force. I don't feel like you need all that extra T atk especially if you make a pure T atk mag. Just my thoughts from a level 43 fo :D

[holmwood]

Here are two possible skill trees I was thinking of but I'm not sure how good some skills are compared to others. For example how good is elemental weakpoint? Would it be a better use of points to get T-atk 2 and/or max out the dark tree due to the high base damage of dark? Let me know what you think of these and how you would change them. I also like the dark skills and that's why I'm inclined to raise the damage on them. I guess it just comes down to can I deal more damage by getting the T-atk boosts as opposed to going down the dark tree.

http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.html?uAIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIbIn00000 0ib00000ib00000ib0000GOHk2TIk00006GBIdIdcFIdI2a200 00

http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.html?uAIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIbIn00000 0ib00000ib00000ib0000GBHXdscJ00006tB7dI2HSrKI20006
Maxed elemental weakpoint only activates if you are using the enemy's weakness. If you're the type to spam megid or zan for everything, then its more efficient to invest those points into their respective masteries . If, however, you do use the enemy's elemental weakness, note that elemental weakness skill stacks with the preexisting weakness multiplier for a total of 1.2x1.2=1.44x the normal tech damage.

It's a matter of playstyle REALLY.

Personally, I've pretty much been using samegid for all boss fights despite putting up elemental weakness... XD

[SPOnion]

A generalist FO would max both Charge Tech Adv. 1 and 2, as well as JA 1 for 1.1/1.1/1.1 power on all techs and get Elemental Weakness on the TE for an extra 1.2 on anything (assuming you are using the corresponding elemental against the enemy's specific weakness). You get PP Rev , the most important skill for FO, on the way.

A specialist would, I would say, still get PP Rev, then goes for the maxed single elemental mastery. Status boost currently is of no use most of the time so I strongly advice against putting any sp into it unless it's for the prerequisite of the later skills. However, Charge Adv 1 and 2 are still very nice. PP Res is good too.

A basic model for generalist would be like this:
http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.html?uAIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIbIn00000 0ib00000ib00000ib00004OI22SIkjbnbnIk00064O7dI2J200 00

A specialist's model would be more complicated

[Miraclearrow]

Just for the record, it has been very heavily discussed and leveling up fire mastery is still doing more than just attack. I don't know how it compares to if you're getting elemental weak hit to level 10 as well... at that point it might be stronger but I don't think so.

[SPOnion]

The point of JA Adv is that it applies to all elementals instead of X mastery that only applies to one, so you don't get bored out of Xfoie spam...and possibly save your mouse a few weeks by pressing the right (or left) one at least 30% less... A maxed fire tree (supported by double PP rec TE tree) would indeed out perform most builds (since fire Fos basically cast double Xfoie when others only do one) currently but personally I would go for all kinds of techs.

[Miraclearrow]

The point of JA Adv is that it applies to all elementals instead of X mastery that only applies to one, so you don't get bored out of Xfoie spam...and possibly save your mouse a few weeks by pressing the right (or left) one at least 30% less... A maxed fire tree (supported by double PP rec TE tree) would indeed out perform most builds (since fire Fos basically cast double Xfoie when others only do one) currently but personally I would go for all kinds of techs.

Thanks for the info. And agree, if you don't wanna go crazy then opt for something different but for max damage spec fire tree :)

Thanks for the info!

[gigawuts]

Bolt PP save is great and I feel great when I cast a million zondeels without running out of PP.

[Regis757]

Thank you for all of the replies!

A lot more things make a lot more sense to me now. Would someone mind explaining exactly what the "Just Attack" thing is? I'm not quite sure I understand the concept of it 100%.

I've revised two trees taking into consideration what everyone has said. It sounds like the first link is another step towards spamming fire/dark and doing maximum possible damage with those two elements while the second link relies on weakpoints to deal the most damage.

Specialized (http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.html?uAIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIbIn00000 0ib00000ib00000ib0000DoIk2XcK00006GB7dI2cFqXIk0006 )

General (http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.html?uAIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIbIn00000 0ib00000ib00000ib0000GOHk2TIk00006GBIdIdbFIdI2J200 00)

What do you think of them/what would you change?
Which one do you think would give me more of the "holy shit that's a lot of damage" feeling taking into account that I would always use elemental weakness for the general build and always fire/dark for the specialized build + decent gear?

Thanks

[Coatl]

Ugh Rafoie spammers.
Rafoie has pretty poor AOE overall, and it is outclassed by zan and zondeel during a PSE burst.
It's a good single target burst-damage, but I wouldn't use it for anything other than that.

[Shirokami]

Ugh Rafoie spammers.
Rafoie has pretty poor AOE overall, and it is outclassed by zan and zondeel during a PSE burst.
It's a good single target burst-damage, but I wouldn't use it for anything other than that.

I only find it useful for Ragne, but now that I got Techer, Grants can do better.

[Miraclearrow]

Even though those are cheap fire still does more damage. And we're not talking about AOE bursts. And even still, if you're spec'd properly you can just cast foie 3 targets behind the one you're casting and hit everything. And you're casting way faster and its spec mastered twice.



Thank you for all of the replies!

A lot more things make a lot more sense to me now. Would someone mind explaining exactly what the "Just Attack" thing is? I'm not quite sure I understand the concept of it 100%.

I've revised two trees taking into consideration what everyone has said. It sounds like the first link is another step towards spamming fire/dark and doing maximum possible damage with those two elements while the second link relies on weakpoints to deal the most damage.

Specialized (http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.html?uAIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIbIn00000 0ib00000ib00000ib0000DoIk2XcK00006GB7dI2cFqXIk0006 )

General (http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.html?uAIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIbIn00000 0ib00000ib00000ib0000GOHk2TIk00006GBIdIdbFIdI2J200 00)

What do you think of them/what would you change?
Which one do you think would give me more of the "holy shit that's a lot of damage" feeling taking into account that I would always use elemental weakness for the general build and always fire/dark for the specialized build + decent gear?

Thanks
Just attacking is when you see the little white circle and you wait for to go red and then do your next attack. This basically makes it so you do WAY more damage. You can just attack pretty much anything as far as basic attacks to magic spells and you should start learning to get in the habit of just attacking everything.

[gigawuts]

Just Attack, often abbreviated to JA, is 30% more damage over what the attack would have dealt, regardless of atk's or def's. The Tech JA Advance in the bolt tree is a 10% bonus to that - this multiplies the base stat. Which makes it not 140%, but 143%.

I personally would suggest getting into bolt PP save instead of maxing both t-atk ups. Bolt techs are the most damage:PP efficient out of everything with the skill maxed, hands down. They also behave in ways other techs simply do not, most notably gizonde.

Here's a generalist FO I suggest:
http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.html?uAIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIbIn00000 0ib00000ib00000ib0000kbI22XIkjbncA00084OdqldI2J200 00
(5 SP to do whatever the hell you want with on FO, maybe drop it in TJAA, and 20 for TE. You can perfectly round out both light masteries with that, that's what I did. Flame charge speed for the versatility that faster casting gives in flinching enemies, and also dumping PP on bosses weak against fire).

I'd keep t-atk up skills at a minimum. This is a mistake most of us made when we were new. More multipliers are always far superior to more ATK Ups, unless you don't have a mag for your teching stats (then you only use ATK Ups to meet required stats for higher level weaponry). This is just by nature of the math: ATK Ups give at best 50 ATK per 10 SP (And at worst 50 ATK for like 25 SP, because you go through skills you wouldn't otherwise want). At level 48/47 my te/focast (don't hate) has 1600 atk between everything it equips. Let's put 50 on top of that...that's a 3% gain. That's equivalent to 3 SP in TCA. Not great, right? You gain more damage through versatility and smarter playing than you do just pooling into maxing your stats.

Spamming rafoie might be fun for some, but I would safely make the assertion that it is not fun for most. I knew a LOT of rafoie spammers when the game was new, and almost all have moved on to newer things. Why? They said the game got super boring. Well, gee, when you keep using one attack for everything on the screen I can't imagine how you could possibly get bored.

Oh, and, if you decide to demo bolt techs before investing in bolt PP save, don't be surprised when they seem awful with just 4-5 castings. It's not their damage outright that's good (which it still is), it's the fact that you can cast and cast and cast bolt techs even when fire forces have already had to refill their PP 2-3 times. With PP restorate maxed you recover ~10 PP in the time it takes to charge a regular non-fire tech. That means with bolt save maxed zonde has a net cost of 3 to cast. Gizonde has a net cost of 8 (in line with zan), and zondeel has a net cost of 6. Zondeel is phenomenal, by the way.

edit: And why wand gear? Because if you're like me and enjoy whacking shit with your rod, techer was literally made specifically for you. It's just barrels of fun whacking bosses in the face with a mallet. 1SP unique abilities such as gear should always take priority over 1% more damage. Always, always, always.

[SPOnion]

Btw, PP Convert at lv 6 is already very satisfying. At lv 10 it's basically your Photon Blast PP Reg for 25s (using the effect itself will deplete a few s since it has a startup pose)...I tested it with PP Res though.

Bolt techs has only one weakness: it lacks a Snipe Tech, like Grants/Rafoie/ or even that Xzan (forget its name). I have not got the new dark tech so have no idea how that works. Sometimes you need to destroy certain parts of the boss that cannot be locked (but have to be aimed manually in TPS mode). For example, the new boss in Ruin.It is a very big difference whether an elemental has it or not.
Besides, as far as I remember, Zond, unlike Rafoie/Grants, has a much closer range...

Also worth mentioning...Territory Burst now is 90s/120s cd at lv1...

[gigawuts]

Yeah, that's an issue with zonde. Zonde needs line of sight. Even if you try to cast off a talis, it still requires line of sight from the player, despite how other techs work with casting off the talis itself. It seems a bit buggy really. It also has a limited range, unlike rafoie or grants which will hit things so far away that they're past the max viewdistance. Zonde has a few interesting behaviors, namely its AOE, inability to hit fast moving airborne targets, and ability to smack a weakpoint right through a ton of other hitboxes. Try locking onto a dagan's weakpoint and casting zonde. It'll clip right through it and zap the weakpoint.

The max range and inaccuracy for fast flying targets is annoying, but that's why I maxed light mastery. Dat grants.

By the way, element weak hit basically turns any weakness into having two masteries on that element, on top of any other bonuses. It's 20% base bonus damage, and then another 20% from the skill.

[Regis757]

It seems like I will enjoy playing as a general force user more than specializing because I enjoy switching out my spells depending on elemental weakness. I tried out the JA just now and am indeed hitting quite a bit harder than I was before. If I am a main class force -- sub class techer, can I use wands? Also -- do wands scale off of s-atk and t-atk? or just t-atk.

I think I will make my tree look something like this:
Skill Tree Fo/Te? (http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.html?uAIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIbIn00000 0ib00000ib00000ib0000kbI22SIkjbnbnIk00064O7dI2HS00 00)

In the force tree I will likely dump the last 5 points into bolt pp save or shorter casting time on fire depending on which I find more useful at the time. In the techer tree I will probably go light (not sure yet as I haven't tried out any grants spells). I may go wand depending on how much I like it. If I like Techer way more than force then I may even just make techer my main and force or something else the subclass. Thanks for all the help and feel free to leave any revisions/ideas.

Thanks again,
Regis

[SPOnion]

Grants and Gigrants are amazing techs. Grants can be used as either a "lock and spam from far away" tech or "aim and snipe" one. Gigrants has a very large AOE that it is very easy to spam with a card launcher.

If you decides to go for generalist, you might consider PP Convert instead of light mastery, since the former let you cast techs nonstop for like 20-25s every 2m, which is good for any tech . Or you might want to save the SP for later "PP Restorate 2" (which might either be under light mastery 2 or elemental weakness) since the current one is labled "PP Restorate 1".

[holmwood]

It seems like I will enjoy playing as a general force user more than specializing because I enjoy switching out my spells depending on elemental weakness. I tried out the JA just now and am indeed hitting quite a bit harder than I was before. If I am a main class force -- sub class techer, can I use wands? Also -- do wands scale off of s-atk and t-atk? or just t-atk.

I think I will make my tree look something like this:
Skill Tree Fo/Te? (http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.html?uAIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIbIn00000 0ib00000ib00000ib0000kbI22SIkjbnbnIk00064O7dI2HS00 00)

In the force tree I will likely dump the last 5 points into bolt pp save or shorter casting time on fire depending on which I find more useful at the time. In the techer tree I will probably go light (not sure yet as I haven't tried out any grants spells). I may go wand depending on how much I like it. If I like Techer way more than force then I may even just make techer my main and force or something else the subclass. Thanks for all the help and feel free to leave any revisions/ideas.

Thanks again,
Regis
You can't use regular wands as a subtecher, only those designated for all classes (which isn't released I believe) The stats of a main techer and main force have the same tatk I believe; fo mains have more range atk and te mains have more strike atk. Wands do both strike and tech damage with wand gear, so if you wished to whack stuff I recommend a main techer.

Personally, I went with flame s charge because I do spam shifta alot for my other combinations. However, I find Zondeel to be very pleasing and kind of regret not putting PP save... But i use zondeel on only a few mobs anyway. :/

[gigawuts]

It seems like I will enjoy playing as a general force user more than specializing because I enjoy switching out my spells depending on elemental weakness. I tried out the JA just now and am indeed hitting quite a bit harder than I was before. If I am a main class force -- sub class techer, can I use wands? Also -- do wands scale off of s-atk and t-atk? or just t-atk.

I think I will make my tree look something like this:
Skill Tree Fo/Te? (http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.html?uAIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIbIn00000 0ib00000ib00000ib0000kbI22SIkjbnbnIk00064O7dI2HS00 00)

In the force tree I will likely dump the last 5 points into bolt pp save or shorter casting time on fire depending on which I find more useful at the time. In the techer tree I will probably go light (not sure yet as I haven't tried out any grants spells). I may go wand depending on how much I like it. If I like Techer way more than force then I may even just make techer my main and force or something else the subclass. Thanks for all the help and feel free to leave any revisions/ideas.

Thanks again,
Regis


You can pull 5 points from either TJAA or TCA (I would advice pulling from all 3 as evenly as you can, since they multiply) and do both. In fact, I suggest doing exactly that. Halved casting time for fire is a big deal - you gain way more than 5% damage per second when you dump your PP into fire on an enemy. -10 PP is way more useful than -5 PP with 5% more damage too, since bolts are best used when you need to repeatedly cast for extended periods of time (zondeel chaining for instance).

Basically, that 5% extra damage isn't really all that great. Yeah, it sounds it, but look at it this way: You deal 5k damage in two castings on a target. It has 4k HP. Will dealing just 4700 damage make a difference? Or will casting 35% faster if it's fire, or having another fifty or so zondes up your sleeve?

Other than that, I'm glad you're going for a generalist tree like this. It really is a lot more fun in the long term. I would definitely save that SP for techer if nothing looks good. I have multiple classes with unspent SP, because you never know what they'll add later that you REALLY want, or how much SP it'll take to access it. Chase bind on fighter is a perfect example - so incredibly useful for my playstyle, and I wouldn't have it if I spent all my SP.

edit: Wand (with gear, gear is required to make it useful) is a pretty great weapon. It has slightly lower t-atk, but massively higher s-atk. The gear adds an explosion that doubles the damage you deal when you smack things with it. The physical smack has the same scaling as rods, but techers have better stats for that. The explosion scales with t-atk, and I believe benefits from enemy weaknesses and perhaps even masteries. This makes it very powerful for forces that enjoy close quarters combat, which I do. I played this way with rods before techer was added, and I enjoyed it even then. This class was literally made specifically for me. Between my base stats as a cast and just enjoying this playstyle all around, techer has made force infinitely more fun for me.

edit2: Btw max out PP restorate if you're getting element weak hit, no matter what you do on your techer tree, unless you're also getting PP convert, or unless you're doing pure fire. PP is damage on a force. Fire casts in such little time that very little PP regenerates, so many players swap to a gunslash to raise their PP back up (in this way gunner may actually be a better sub than techer sometimes). I don't enjoy this playstyle myself however, so I don't do it.