Best Fighter subclass? FI/HU vs FI/GU vs FI/TE?

[Rayden]

Hello.

I've been lurking here for quite a while, but this is my first post. I've played every version of PSO (and PSU) in the past, so I'm quite familiar with these games. However, I am having trouble selecting the best class combination for myself, and so I would appreciate your thoughts and advice.

I've always enjoyed the melee classes, and Fighter is the obvious main class for me in this game. However, I see three different subclasses that would go well with it: Hunter, Gunner, and Techer. I simply cannot decide which would be best. Now, regardless of the subclass, I plan to raise Fighter in the same way: I will take all the gears, max both Brave Stance Up and Wise Stance Up, and put the rest of the points into Chase Advance and Chase Bind. With that said, below are my thoughts on each subclass combination.


1. Fighter/Hunter

On the Hunter subclass I would focus on JA Bonus 1, JA Bonus 2, and Fury Stance. This seems to be the most obvious subclass, and it would simply increase the damage output of the Fighter class, plain and simple. Nothing particularly exciting and interesting, but a good percentage damage increase all the same.

There are quite a lot of skill points to spare after this, so this also lets me take Step Advance, Step Attack, and Just Reversal on the Hunter skill tree, giving me more points to put into Chase Bind on the Fighter skill tree.

The build would be something like this (still with some spare Hunter skill points): http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.html?dAIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkebIoqnGKc A6cA00009brIGBboGFIbFN0000Ib00000ib0000Ib00000ib00 000f


2. Fighter/Hunter

Another idea for the Hunter subclass that I have takes the opposite route, and focuses on Hunter's defensive skills. I do very much like the idea of taking the offensive Fighter class, and pairing it up with the defensive Hunter class, with all of the appropriate skills, to get an end result which deals great damage while still having amazing survivability.

The skills that I'm particularly interested in are Iron Will, Automate Halfline, Flash Guard 1, Flash Guard 2, and Flash Tech Guard. These skills all sound pretty amazing to me, but unfortunately it doesn't seem possible to take or max all of them with the current level cap. I'm not sure which of these skills would be best, but I'm guessing that Iron Will is probably the worst of them, as it requires five points in War Cry and I shouldn't really be relying on Iron Will to survive too much.

The build would be something like this: http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.html?dAIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIbIn4Nj4Q I2cFfJk00006ebrbGBboGFIbpA0000Ib00000ib0000Ib00000 ib00000f


3. Fighter/Gunner

Back on PSU I was a Fighgunner, so this combination sounds pretty cool. I like the idea of being able to use twin mechguns every now and then with their Photon Arts. But unfortunately, in this game I'd only be able to use the all-class weapons, and they'd probably be useless compared to my Fighter weapons. Unless anyone here can think of a good reason to use all-class guns as a Fighter/Gunner?

The main reason for this combination is to get the Attack PP Restorate skill. I've read that this is great for a Fighter, increasing the PP regeneration significantly and allowing for Photon Arts to be used much more. Other interesting skills include Chain Trigger, Chain Finish, Automate Deadline, and Aerial Advance.

I'm not sure exactly how Chain Trigger works, but I believe it's meant to build up when doing regular attacks, then deals massive damage when you finish it with a Photon Art... Or something. If that works with melee weapons then it could be useful for increasing my damage output. Aerial Advance wouldn't be too useful, as flying enemies aren't too common, but it's still more damage, I guess.

The build would be something like this: http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.html?nnIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIbIn00000 0febrbGBboGFIbpA0000Ib00000ibbqI2cFcAFQ000Ib00000i b00000f


4. Fighter/Techer

This is the last class combination that I'm considering. I've always liked paladin characters, the kind who melee but also use supportive magic, being useful in parties but also good at soloing due to being able to buff themselves. Unfortunately, I've read that buffs aren't that great in this game...

Anyway, the main draw of the Techer subclass is access to techniques. I would be able to heal myself and others by using Resta. I would be able to buff myself and others with Shifta and Deband. Deband Cut sounds pretty good. I've read that certain other techniques are useful for reasons other than damage, such as Zondeel grouping enemies together for easy melee attacks, and Megiverse absorbing health from enemies.

PP Restorate 1 would help with my passive PP regeneration to allow me to use Photon Arts more often. Poison Boost and Poison Ignition could go very well with my Chase Advance and Chase Bind skills from the fighter class. I'm not sure if Element Weak Hit would be useful for a melee fighter.

The build would be something like this (although this was difficult, as there are not enough skill points to get all the good stuff): http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.html?tNIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIbIn00000 0febrbGBboGFIbpA0000Ib00000ib0000Ib00000f4O6eSI2cF J20008


Now, I've already done a lot of research here, having read all of the enormous hunter, fighter, and techer threads in their entirety. I've read a lot of opinions here on how these classes complement each other, and that has been reflected in my thoughts above. The main thing I'm interested now is how these combinations compare. What would be the most effective? What would offer the highest DPS? Would it be worth choosing an option that gives a slightly lower DPS for the other abilities it offers?

I will probably try out all of these combinations myself to see what I like best, but that will take a long time, especially as I have to unlock both the Gunner and Techer classes. I'd very much appreciate any input you could offer. In this game, it seems like DPS is the single most important thing, and if you can't deal out good damage then you're pretty much useless in a party. I want to be effective, and so DPS is important to me. However, I'm not obsessed with it - I would be quite happy to sacrifice a small amount of DPS in order to get some other sufficiently useful abilities.

I guess what it comes down to is, is it worth trading JA Bonus 1, JA Bonus 2, and Fury Stance from the Hunter class, for defensive tanking abilities, or for PP regen and Chain Trigger, or for techniques/buffs and poison skills?

So... What do you think? I apologise for the length of this post. Thank you for reading it all if you have.

[IndigoNovember]

If you're confident in your ability to dodge attacks whether through Step or Fighter weapon's dodge abilities/Acro Effect then you don't need to go a defensive Hunter build. I'd just be careful about investing too heavily in Fury Stance since the bonus is static. Also investing in the weapon gears and Just Guard won't be a horrible idea since Hunter has a decent set of all class weapons (usually only around 100 less S-ATK than the strongest weapon of each type currently). So those are additional weapons you can use if you go FI/HU. Iron Will, while sounding bad on paper with only a 75% chance success rate, keeps you alive quite well in practice. It works well with low health characters as well when compared with Automate Halfline where having more health increases chance of triggering. Iron Will is a cheap man's defensive tool when compared to the Flash Guards though. Automate Halfline is a lazy man's tool if you get all of the Flash Guards, though it is still very useful for situations where you don't have the time to heal.

Going Gunner will fix the problem of PP running out very quickly due to Attack PP Restorate. Chain Trigger (you described its usage correctly) is only really useful against bosses and even though it's pretty easy to screw up and lose the Chain especially if you're melee (ie: enemy jumping out of reach for a few seconds causing you to lose your Chain). You can also deal with the PP problem by simply affixing Spirita/Souls with +3 SP instead of +30 HP to your units and weapons. So it's a useful class if you're on a budget (affixing while being expensive is not horribly hard to do).

Going Techer would allow you to gain access to Chase Advance's bonus easier since you can just cast Techniques until the status effect is applied. But you can also just affix a status ailment causing special ability to your weapon for the same effect. You would do decent damage with your techniques due to Fighter having high T-ATK innately, but you won't be doing anywhere near FO/TE or TE/FO damage (you also won't have PP Charge Revival which helps a lot). PP Restorate isn't as good as Attack PP Restorate due to PP not recovering while you do Photon Arts. PP Convert paired with PP Restorate will give you more PP then you can use for 30 seconds, but due to being a melee, it's a bit harder to always have situations where you can take advantage of that when compared to someone using ranged attacks (ie: same kind of situation as was described for Chain Trigger, enemy moving out of reach and therefore wasting some of your 30 seconds of unlimited PP). Zondeel and Megiverse are very very nice especially when combined with Territory Burst. Element Weak Hit works if your weapon has the correct Element, but that would require you to have sets of elements for each weapon which might be a bit much. Supporting others is nice, but due to the short length of Shifta and Deband, you'd have to constantly buff your party members which isn't exactly the easiest thing to manage with everyone being everywhere.

I'd say that going FI/HU would yield the most DPS. Even more so if you can affix all your gear to have more PP/status inflicting affixes. Following that I'd say going FI/TE would yield the most utility because of Zondeel and Megiverse. FI/GU is really just abusing the usefulness of Attack PP Restorate and in the rare situation that you fall below 75% HP in one hit, Automate Deadline. Chain Trigger will still see use, but it won't help as much as either Zondeel or Megiverse. That's how I see things at the moment at least.

[Rayden]

Thank you very much for your reply!


If you're confident in your ability to dodge attacks whether through Step or Fighter weapon's dodge abilities/Acro Effect then you don't need to go a defensive Hunter build.
I am confident in my ability to dodge attacks, but still, everyone gets hit sometime. I like the idea of having good defensive abilities so that I can shrug off attacks when I do get hit. I just like the idea of being pretty much invincible, I guess, but not if it would sacrifice too much DPS. There don't seem to be enough skill points to take the good defensive skills at the same time as JA Bonus 1 and 2 - do you think JA Bonus is really that important?


I'd just be careful about investing too heavily in Fury Stance since the bonus is static.
Yeah, I think Fury Stance will probably be useless later down the road. I'm currently a Fighter 50 / Hunter 40 with Fury Stance maxed (I'm considering getting another Hunter skill tree depending on advice from this thread), and it currently seems to add around 20 damage. Not too bad, but not amazing either.


Also investing in the weapon gears and Just Guard won't be a horrible idea since Hunter has a decent set of all class weapons (usually only around 100 less S-ATK than the strongest weapon of each type currently). So those are additional weapons you can use if you go FI/HU.
I considered this, but I'm not sure. In PSO and PSU, I'd always carry around tons of different weapons and switch to them as the situation required. That was part of the fun of being a melee character. However, in this game, it doesn't seem like it's that important to make use of different weapons, especially for the Hunter class. At least with Fighter, Twin Daggers are good on enemies that fly, are too mobile, or certain bosses, and Double Sabers are good for AoEing and dealing a lot of damage. But with Hunter, none of the weapons impressed me much, and none of them seemed to have any particular situations that they shined in. I pretty much just used Wired Lances all the time for everything. It might be fun to be able to use Hunter weapons again with the all-class weapons, but even 100 less S-ATK would probably make them useless, when I have Fighter weapons that can do the exact same job with higher S-ATK. Unless you can suggest any situations where a Hunter weapon might be more ideal for me to use? The only thing I can think of is to switch weapon to Just Guard an upcoming attack, if I can't dodge it for some reason.


Going Gunner will fix the problem of PP running out very quickly due to Attack PP Restorate. Chain Trigger (you described its usage correctly) is only really useful against bosses and even though it's pretty easy to screw up and lose the Chain especially if you're melee (ie: enemy jumping out of reach for a few seconds causing you to lose your Chain). You can also deal with the PP problem by simply affixing Spirita/Souls with +3 SP instead of +30 HP to your units and weapons. So it's a useful class if you're on a budget (affixing while being expensive is not horribly hard to do).
Thanks for clarifying Chain Trigger. Based on what you've said, then, Gunner doesn't sound like a particularly great subclass compared to the other options.


Going Techer would allow you to gain access to Chase Advance's bonus easier since you can just cast Techniques until the status effect is applied. But you can also just affix a status ailment causing special ability to your weapon for the same effect.
I do plan to affix status effects on my weapons, but I thought that Techer's Poison Boost skill would also affect the success rate of the Poison weapon affix. But maybe it doesn't? I was thinking a high level of Poison on my weapon, combined with a maxed out Poison Boost from the Techer class, could give me a very high chance of inflicting it.


PP Restorate isn't as good as Attack PP Restorate due to PP not recovering while you do Photon Arts.
Hmm, thanks, I didn't know that. But it'd probably still be useful for recovering in the downtime, either when I'm moving from one enemy to another, waiting for the next enemies to spawn, or when performing normal attacks because I've run out of PP.


I'd say that going FI/HU would yield the most DPS.
Yeah... I was afraid of that. I want an optimum build where I can be most effective, but Hunter as a subclass doesn't seem particularly interesting without the defensive skills. It seems like it's a subclass purely for the JA Bonus skills and nothing else.

Thank you again for your input!

[UnLucky]

The problem with a defensive hunter is that Guard Stance and War Cry are worthless. That, and there's a big emphasis on active dodging, which costs no skill points (in-game at least). You can also get Just Guard for a small point investment. That said, a 75% chance to survive any attack is pretty nice. And if you have Automate (or otherwise regain any amount of health) Iron Will can activate again immediately. In VH, and I suspect in Ultimate even moreso, the punishment for taking even one hit is very severe, yet straight up def values scale really badly. You would seriously need a lot of percentage based mitigation to be able to take one or two more hits which you should be able to avoid. More damage means enemies die faster which means they attack you less often which increases your survivability. :)

Oh, for your FI/HU build, Chase Bind is one of those "1 or max" skills. Lv1 gives 20% to bind, lv8 is 42%, and lv10 is 70%. Unless you're throwing out status ailments all around, you're not going to see it proc much anyway. 20% will trigger after several hits on one target, and it's not like Bind is that great for a melee class either. You can better use those points to either max a stance or get Just Reversal on your Fighter to free up points for either Fury Stance Up 2 or all the gears and Just Guard on the Hunter tree.

(FI or HU)/TE is gaining popularity due to all the utility techs. Techer itself kinda sucks, but it's a better sub than Force if all you want is the tech availability. Deband Cut is nice, but that's about it for the S/D skills other than simply having the techs to use at all. PP regen is always good, and if you go for PP Convert, stick with lv1 or 3 since that's double/triple regen respectively for only 20-22% HP penalty (no cooldown or duration change at max). Element Weak Hit isn't that useful but if you've got a lot of powerful weapons with varying (maxed) elemental attributes, you'd probably still be better off spending the points elsewhere :L


do you think JA Bonus is really that important?
Yes. Each is a +10% damage to both regular attacks and PAs (when JA'd, obviously).


I do plan to affix status effects on my weapons, but I thought that Techer's Poison Boost skill would also affect the success rate of the Poison weapon affix. But maybe it doesn't?
Who really knows. But what is known is that maxed [Ailment] Boost is *110%. So maxed Poison Ignition which has a 30% to inflict poison becomes 33% with maxed Poison Boost. Yeah.

[gigawuts]

I tried fi/te, lots of fun with enemy manipulation and team buffs/heals (also free healing). My first subclass combo was fi/gu, also loads of fun. Great sustainable damage output, and mechguns make for amazingly fun melee-style weapons with extra range.

Fi/hu is what fits me the best, though. Everything fits snugly. My standard palette for this combo...
Sword (whatever PA combo is effective for this area, sometimes 3x SA, sometimes sa/ride slasher/blablabla)
knuckles (quake howling/flash thousand/surprise knuckle)
double saber (trash mob killing setup, tornado dance/acro effect/surprise dunk lately)
random slot - daggers, gunslash, allclass weapons to hold when an enemy dies to clear a CO, whatever.
double saber (3x deadly archer, weak point devastating)
double saber (acro/acro/deadly archer, for actually threatening bosses - great because acro actually packs a punch, offers autoguarding after the first attack, and can be dash cancelled on top of it, very effective for defensive play. The DA is there for comboing - jump/normal/PA/PA does JA for the second acro, lifts you, and JA's a deadly archer in the boss's face)

Why that order? I dunno, muscle memory for changing weapons I guess.

This combo offers me: JG when I want it, damage output when I want it, semi-defensive play when I want it, and fun weapons when I want them.

I wouldn't worry about the status effect boosting skills, as mentioned why by Unlucky. That's SP you could invest in something else, or better yet not even spend at all, and save for future additions to the tree. Who knows, maybe we'll get a Poison Ignition Advanced skill.

For chase advance & bind...here's a great tip: Affix a level 3 status effect to every single weapon you use. What one? Change it up, I don't care. Variety is good, since different minibosses are immune to different SE's. Mirage covers the gaps that shock and burn seem to miss, but poison is pretty great to just have anyway. If you use lucky rise, buy a weapon with status effect II minimum.

Oh and a good point to note: No class benefits from a large PP reserve quite like fighter. That extra attack can be another 80k damage. Seriously - a good double saber (we're talking 10* or lambda failnought, but weaker weapons would surely come close with a decently set up tree) combined with both stances, and a charged deadly archer will dish out 10x ~8k damage on a weak bulleted falz arm weak point.

Iron will also addresses in the biggest weak point of fighter; That is, being flinchlocked to death. Dubs don't have hyper armor on any PA's. Daggers, despite their great defensive options, aren't really very versatile if there's more than 2 enemies to attack. Fists...well, with the brief invuln on the fist parry you can expect to be hit unless you're obscenely good at timing that thing. I consider iron will easily worth the 15 SP, on at least 1 tree that is. Going from 640 hp to 400, to 200, to 10, to 1 never gets old to watch - even if it does only happen 75% of the time. You wouldn't think that last hit would save you very often, but it actually does. I only very rarely get killed when iron will procs. It's one of those skills that's better in use than on paper, I guess.

[CelestialBlade]

FI/HU is my main combo, and it's really hard for anything to come close to its damage simply because of JA Boost 1 and 2. You don't even need Fury Stance, I never use it anymore because it's a bit risky, and still I challenge any melee combination to come close to its damage. Personally I'm considering investing in Iron Will in the HU tree, even if it means wasting points in War Cry and Guard Stance, just because I know the Fury boosts won't mean much to me.

I really really like FI/GU, but it's so limited by the lack of good all-class Mechs. Having the ranged option is very nice, Attack PP Restorate is SO GOOD as Fighter, Aerial Advance really brings out Daggers' potential, and the variety is fun. Plus I can use my Vol units as this combo for their set bonus, but even so, losing those JA Boosts really hurts. Very fun combo though.

FI/TE is intriguing. You're not held back by all-class weapons, you have great buffs, and Fighter already has the third-highest T-ATK. With buffs, how does this stack up to FI/HU damage-wise? Might be fun to try sometime.

[Rayden]

Thank you all for your replies. You've given me some good points to think about!


Who really knows. But what is known is that maxed [Ailment] Boost is *110%. So maxed Poison Ignition which has a 30% to inflict poison becomes 33% with maxed Poison Boost. Yeah.
Wow. I assume that's been tested, right? That's pretty useless. In that case, the only way Techer would really help with Chase Advance would be for Poison Ignition to spread poison to other enemies...


My standard palette for this combo...
Thanks for all the detailed info!


Sword (whatever PA combo is effective for this area, sometimes 3x SA, sometimes sa/ride slasher/blablabla)
knuckles (quake howling/flash thousand/surprise knuckle)
Do you actually find any situations where these are more useful than twin daggers or double sabers? Where exactly do you use them?

I like knuckles for style reasons, but I haven't really been able to find anywhere where they'd be better than twin daggers or double sabers. Twin daggers obviously rule in the air, and double sabers seem to rule on the ground.

And swords... Well, I always disliked them in this game, but after reading all the advice here I decided to get the Sword Gear. I just got it, and I'm still not impressed. The PAs do charge much faster, but other than that there doesn't seem to be a lot of difference. And the weapon itself is still dreadfully slow, which is the main thing I don't like about it. Do you find any situations where a sword is better than anything else?


FI/HU is my main combo, and it's really hard for anything to come close to its damage simply because of JA Boost 1 and 2. You don't even need Fury Stance, I never use it anymore because it's a bit risky, and still I challenge any melee combination to come close to its damage.
Thanks for your input. Another +1 for FI/HU with JA Boost being the best for DPS, then...

[Hrith]

yet straight up def values scale really badly.Not sure what you use to base that opinion. As a RA/HU, using Fury Stance (Lv10) against the rare forest Banther, I was taking 300+ damage, I changed to Guard Stance (Lv10), I was then only taking 80 or so damage, that sounds quite useful to me...

Do not forget FI/GU can use rifles and their PAs, even without WB, that's a good weapon to use on bosses.

As for FI/TE, it's simply awesome, I highly recommend it. With Shifta Advance Lv10, the damage is totally comparable to FI/HU. Of course, FI/HU also benefit from your Shifta :P
As FI(HU)/TE, I attack as much as I support (Resta Advance, Territory Burst, etc.), it makes for a truly amazing hybrid class.

[gigawuts]

Dubs haven't got stun, which quake howling does. So I frequently find myself preferring knuckles in mines against gilnatch or gilnas. They're also a fun time weapon.

Sword gear is one of those things you have to get used to Sword is actually one of the fastest paced melee weapons - but only after you get the gear. It's essentially THE hunter weapon. WL aren't bad, and neither are partisan, but when it comes to sheer damage output the sword is the pick most long time hunters make.

As a general rule, get all gears. Get all the 1 sp abilities if they're in reach, barring just counter which is of arguable utility (it only gives a JA circle after just guarding - just guard is the skill that damages an enemy when you successfully perform a just guard). And get sword gear full stop. Try using sword exclusively for a while, you'll start seeing why people say it's so good after you get a better grasp of why people say it's good.

For sword, I recommend 4 slots:
Sonic Arrow x3 (fast paced, good at distance, and just general gear building to switch to the below palettes - good for bosses that move frequently or are finnicky, I use this for zesh)
Sonic arrow / Nova Strike / Rising Edge (Bosses you know you can JG and won't stunlock you into dying - something like ragne, del mammoth, etc.)
Sonic arrow / ride slasher / anything you like, I use nova strike (trash mobs, or just general mobility, also good for its flinch immunity)
Ride slasher x3 (Falz hands! This is actually VERY powerful. Go for a WB'd wrist and hit 3x 16k damage with wise & fury stance, enjoy cruising through the juggling smacks because you get hyper armor with this attack)

These are just my own lazy picks these days. Every single PA is amped up considerably with sword gear, so try all of them. I used to use over end a LOT, but if I'm staring at an opening that lets me use OE I just use my dubs instead now.

[Hrith]

What level is your Ride Slasher? Mine is Lv9 I think and the damage is utter crap (800 or so, compated to 1200+ with Nova Strike, which hits more).

I recommend Twister Fall after Rising Edge, they go amazingly well together and both do immense damage.

I agree sword is 'THE' hunter weapon, even if all melee weapons in this game are good, IMO.

[gigawuts]

I have ride slasher 14, and the gains after level 10 are INSANE. The multiplier on my RS is 525. Seriously. It is CRAZY powerful. Hitting 4x 16k damage on a weak bulleted falz wrist (edit: this is the important part - you do this while moving towards them, so even if they move you keep going towards the target, and with hitstop you don't really pass right through them after just one hit) with swords is SO satisfying, and hilariously fun.

Oh also, over end 14's multiplier is 1417. Worth hunting, if you find yourself using it a lot.

[ShinMaruku]

Swords do some insane damage and I will agree on the gear changing how weapons work. I recommend getting gears for all weapons.

I generally run Fi/TE or FiFO so I can drop mirage status effects and switch to my weapon and go ham on the monsters.

I kind of miss my swords now but Safoi makes me kind of not miss it.

[Jakosifer]

Curious as balls about Territory Burst + Zondeel + Deadly Arch

[Coatl]

Territory burst + Zondeel + any attack is pretty amazing imo. Especially DA.

[UnLucky]

Not sure what you use to base that opinion. As a RA/HU, using Fury Stance (Lv10) against the rare forest Banther, I was taking 300+ damage, I changed to Guard Stance (Lv10), I was then only taking 80 or so damage, that sounds quite useful to me...
I'm basing it on the tested 5 def for -1 damage. So the 400 SDef you gain by switching off Fury and activating Guard Stance lets you take 80 less damage per hit. Eighty. The 300+ hits become 220+ hits. Also fun fact: you can still be interrupted and knocked down if you take only a single point of damage.

Yes, sure, that's good. 80 is quite a bit, especially if you take a lot of hits. But normal enemies start throwing 300s and bosses 500-600s so the relatively massive SDef you receive from stances which never gets any better scales poorly as you progress. Even each gear upgrade isn't very noticeable, and anything new is worthless unless it's +10. Percentage based damage mitigation is simply a lot better and scales much better too, which was my point.

Both are still good to have, I mean, you're not going to run in there naked because you have a skill that shaves 10% off your incoming damage, but it's a focus shift, is all I'm saying.


As for FI/TE, it's simply awesome, I highly recommend it. With Shifta Advance Lv10, the damage is totally comparable to FI/HU.
Well, yes and no. Shifta itself is pretty good, since it's +19% of your base stats at lv14. With maxed Shifta Advance that becomes 24%. For ten skill points that is horrid. For reference, JA Advance gives +10% of your total damage, which includes all sources of attack stats. Since your gear can add up to be more than your base stats, that 10% is about four times the increase that Shifta Advance provides. And Hunter gets two of them. And Fury Stance. And Fury Stance Advance.

I've broken down Shifta Critical in another post before, but the long and the short of it is it sucks. Even if you see extremely low numbers, like say you have a minimum damage of 50% of your max, on average you're still going to hit something like 70-80%. A critical then would increase your average damage by 30-40%. The +20% crit rate from Shifta Critical then translates to about 6-8% more damage on average, most likely not even that because I'm being pretty generous here.

Yes, Techers in the party, we love you and really appreciate the effort and sacrifice you make for the greater good. But I wouldn't want to be you.

[Atyl]

I'm basing it on the tested 5 def for -1 damage. So the 400 SDef you gain by switching off Fury and activating Guard Stance lets you take 80 less damage per hit.
That 80 damage is from the damage before PAs or attack multipliers so it competes directly with s-atk. 400 Def is about the same as losing 2-3 units. It's still not great, but it isn't that bad.


Even if you see extremely low numbers, like say you have a minimum damage of 50% of your max, on average you're still going to hit something like 70-80%. A critical then would increase your average damage by 30-40%. The +20% crit rate from Shifta Critical then translates to about 6-8% more damage on average, most likely not even that because I'm being pretty generous here.
Since most people probably don't even realize how generous you are being: Many geared people with subs and mags are already at the 85%+ average damage mark for current VH content while using rares. Reaching the 95% max is not exactly hard either.

[ShinMaruku]

I tend to not fret about Def because most damage is avoidable and with that I overlook def. I could do with some more but with my I/TE I think I have enough baseline.

[UnLucky]

That 80 damage is from the damage before PAs or attack multipliers so it competes directly with s-atk. 400 Def is about the same as losing 2-3 units. It's still not great, but it isn't that bad.

Ah right, I'm being unfair here. I thought normal attacks had no multiplier, so it's just the 5 for 1, but big attacks will definitely see better mitigation from defense then (like 2-3x, so it's significant). Just hope Sega increases the multipliers more than pumping raw stats on later mobs and difficulties.

Still gotta say, though, that Guard Stance is not worth the lower offense regardless, even though it's the biggest source of SDef you can find for the investment.

[Rayden]

Sword gear is one of those things you have to get used to Sword is actually one of the fastest paced melee weapons - but only after you get the gear. It's essentially THE hunter weapon. WL aren't bad, and neither are partisan, but when it comes to sheer damage output the sword is the pick most long time hunters make.
I really want to be able to like swords, especially with how cool they look, but they just seem so awful to me. To me, they're the single worst melee weapon. I only got the gear yesterday, and I understand that's meant to completely change it, and I may not have spent long enough with it yet. But I have tried, and I doubt my opinion is going to change, unfortunately.

Even with the gear I'm not really that impressed with the damage. Sure, the PAs charge a lot faster and hit more times, but it's still not amazing. It's not really about the damage output though. My main problem with the sword is just how dreadfully slow it is. I am referring mainly to the regular attacks, and the gear doesn't appear to do anything to change that. It feels like such a slow, sluggish, clunky weapon, and I don't think I'd like it even if it did 50k damage per swing. It feels to me like a weapon designed for tanks, with how slow and sluggish it is, as well as its ability to cancel attacks with a guard, and this idea is further reinforced by the gear's position in the defensive skill tree.

I'd really like to be able to like the sword. Why exactly do you say it's one of the fastest paced melee weapons? How is it?

Edit: Also, I'm still not sure where a sword would be better used over the fighter weapons, especially considering how similar some of the "best" PAs are. Why would you want to be using Sonic Arrow rather than Deadly Archer, for example?

[gigawuts]

I really want to be able to like swords, especially with how cool they look, but they just seem so awful to me. To me, they're the single worst melee weapon. I only got the gear yesterday, and I understand that's meant to completely change it, and I may not have spent long enough with it yet. But I have tried, and I doubt my opinion is going to change, unfortunately.

Even with the gear I'm not really that impressed with the damage. Sure, the PAs charge a lot faster and hit more times, but it's still not amazing. It's not really about the damage output though. My main problem with the sword is just how dreadfully slow it is. I am referring mainly to the regular attacks, and the gear doesn't appear to do anything to change that. It feels like such a slow, sluggish, clunky weapon, and I don't think I'd like it even if it did 50k damage per swing. It feels to me like a weapon designed for tanks, with how slow and sluggish it is, as well as its ability to cancel attacks with a guard, and this idea is further reinforced by the gear's position in the defensive skill tree.

I'd really like to be able to like the sword. Why exactly do you say it's one of the fastest paced melee weapons? How is it?

Edit: Also, I'm still not sure where a sword would be better used over the fighter weapons, especially considering how similar some of the "best" PAs are. Why would you want to be using Sonic Arrow rather than Deadly Archer, for example?


Dubs haven't got stun, which quake howling does. So I frequently find myself preferring knuckles in mines against gilnatch or gilnas. They're also a fun time weapon.

Sword gear is one of those things you have to get used to Sword is actually one of the fastest paced melee weapons - but only after you get the gear. It's essentially THE hunter weapon. WL aren't bad, and neither are partisan, but when it comes to sheer damage output the sword is the pick most long time hunters make.

As a general rule, get all gears. Get all the 1 sp abilities if they're in reach, barring just counter which is of arguable utility (it only gives a JA circle after just guarding - just guard is the skill that damages an enemy when you successfully perform a just guard). And get sword gear full stop. Try using sword exclusively for a while, you'll start seeing why people say it's so good after you get a better grasp of why people say it's good.

For sword, I recommend 4 slots:
Sonic Arrow x3 (fast paced, good at distance, and just general gear building to switch to the below palettes - good for bosses that move frequently or are finnicky, I use this for zesh)
Sonic arrow / Nova Strike / Rising Edge (Bosses you know you can JG and won't stunlock you into dying - something like ragne, del mammoth, etc.)
Sonic arrow / ride slasher / anything you like, I use nova strike (trash mobs, or just general mobility, also good for its flinch immunity)
Ride slasher x3 (Falz hands! This is actually VERY powerful. Go for a WB'd wrist and hit 3x 16k damage with wise & fury stance, enjoy cruising through the juggling smacks because you get hyper armor with this attack)

These are just my own lazy picks these days. Every single PA is amped up considerably with sword gear, so try all of them. I used to use over end a LOT, but if I'm staring at an opening that lets me use OE I just use my dubs instead now.

Use it and find out. If you still don't like it, then just don't use it I guess.

[Hrith]

I'm basing it on the tested 5 def for -1 damage. So the 400 SDef you gain by switching off Fury and activating Guard Stance lets you take 80 less damage per hit. Eighty. The 300+ hits become 220+ hits. Also fun fact: you can still be interrupted and knocked down if you take only a single point of damage.You really need to read, I was taking 80 damage, not 80 less damage, I was taking 220 less damage.

As usual, people using erroneous 'tested' formluae, lol. Between this and a few other posts recently, I am reminded why PSOW is branded a noob hideout.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

Yeah most of them yours >_>

[Seany1990]

I am reminded why PSOW is branded a noob hideout.
By who exactly? The sega forums?

[ShinMaruku]

It's why he's here. He's a noob hiding out. https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcShhr7uptr8y6sMyEWlJIfTsrmtDyu43 k69olWMWRqyIdzoNvu6

[Z-0]

-swords suck-
Sword: Sonic Arrow x3
Double Saber: Deadly Archer x3

Sword - Crowd Control
Double Saber - Single Target Damage

Go wild.

[ShinMaruku]

Sword: Sonic Arrow x3
Double Saber: Deadly Archer x3

Sword - Crowd Control
Double Saber - Single Target Damage

Go wild.

You sadistic man. You just want people to go ham on rappies don't you?

[Klashikari]

Edit: Also, I'm still not sure where a sword would be better used over the fighter weapons, especially considering how similar some of the "best" PAs are. Why would you want to be using Sonic Arrow rather than Deadly Archer, for example?
Deadly Archer does not have the same range nor the same radius as Sonic Arrow.
Also, SA is much faster in execution and PP dump than DA can ever be (in encounters with fast/random moving enemies such like Falz Arms, you hardly can connect 3 DA in a row unliked SA).

Not only it prevents you to miss your target due to the projectile speed and wide range but it also ensure you are unlikely to be hit due to the fast animation, which cannot be said for DA and other DPS PA ("exception" for Speed Rain, which is an even more crowd control PA than a real DPS one considering how hellishly long the animation is, however cancellable it is. other real non sword DPS skills are less safe).

DA is definitely better in a DPS sense, but you cannot confront a weapon basing on 2 PA alone, whereas you have the other PA contributing a lot.

[Coatl]

Edit: Also, I'm still not sure where a sword would be better used over the fighter weapons, especially considering how similar some of the "best" PAs are. Why would you want to be using Sonic Arrow rather than Deadly Archer, for example?

I know it sounds crazy but, swords have more burst damage.
SA actually travels considerably farther at lv11+ too.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

...I'll grant you that swords have better damage at long range...but I dont think even a gear 3 SA can keep up with an uncharged DA and again that's assuming your gear is fully charged. DA does its thing with no gear at all and at close range you have access to Kamaitachi.

[Coatl]

...I'll grant you that swords have better damage at long range...but I dont think even a gear 3 SA can keep up with an uncharged DA and again that's assuming your gear is fully charged. DA does its thing with no gear at all and at close range you have access to Kamaitachi.

If you had 2 seconds to whale on a boss' weakspot, swords would win out is what I mean. DA has overall higher dps over a longer period of time.

If we had infinite PP It'd be a different story.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

As long as your gear is full, maybe. depending on what you're fighting though, that may not be possible.

[gigawuts]

SA is better for multi-target and long range penetrating hits.

Line up 3-4 enemies, and 5x sonic arrow is the way to go every time. If they live long enough.

[Rayden]

So I've been playing with swords more and trying to like them more, and I have to say that they have grown on me. They can be pretty fun to play with!

One of the main things that has made me like them is the mention earlier on in this thread of using Ride Slasher on Dark Falz Arms. I had previously thought Ride Slasher to be useless, having a long charge time and moving you over so much distance, which would normally take you away from most enemies. However, it really does work wonderfully on Dark Falz Arms, and the Sword Gear reduces that charge time dramatically. I'd even go so far as to say Ride Slasher works better on Dark Falz Arms than anything else I could use, other than perhaps a Gunslash. I've always found it very difficult to chase the arms all over the map as they move around constantly, even with the homing attack from twin daggers. But with Ride Slasher, I don't have to worry about it. I can just surf across the map dealing massive damage as I ride through them. Pretty great and hilariously fun.

It's also very fun to intercept the meteors that Dark Falz Elder throws, using Just Guard. That's another thing that I read on these forums somewhere. So, thank you very much for the tips!

However, even with that said, while swords are certainly fun, I'm still not convinced that there's any reason to use them over the fighter weapons, with the exception of fighting Dark Falz Arms. Currently, I find that double sabers with Tornado Dance generally work better in all situations (other than Dark Falz Arms). I'd certainly appreciate any more advice anyone has to offer on good situations to use swords in. Stun Concido seems like it could be useful, except that it seems like attacking the stunned enemy instantly unstuns it...

I'm also wondering about a term I keep reading on these forums. "Super armor" and "hyper armor" - what exactly is this?

I'm sorry if I'm getting too off-topic, but the sword questions seem to fit with the decision of choosing hunter as a subclass, though.

[Syklo]

I'm also wondering about a term I keep reading on these forums. "Super armor" and "hyper armor" - what exactly is this?


Super armor is a mechanic in most action RPG's that's activated during certain animations or buffs, such that you cannot be flinched or stunned at all.
Sometimes a bad thing, such as when you get small i-frames during stun/flinch, meaning you also increase the DPS potential being dealt on you.

I believe hyper armor is just a variant of the same term.

[Seravi Edalborez]

Usually super armor is like "cannot flinch, can still be knocked down by a heavy attack".
Hyper is just complete immunity flinch and knockdown. (IE, bosses have hyper armor, some normal enemies have hyper armor attacks like Za Oodan or Garongo)

Depending on the context "super" is sometimes used for both.

[ShinMaruku]

Sometimes it's great to abuse super/hyper armour. They don't flinch? They can take the full brunt of an assault take nofoi they will take the whole damn thing. I wonder what fighter skill give sufficient armour that I can use to my advantage.