A few questions, and build help.

[octave]

Ok so hi, I just started playing pso 2 yesterday, but have played PSO for many an hour. I already knew jumping into this that I was going to make a FO/TE, and have been doing quite a bit of looking about at various thoughts for builds and whatnot, as I am very particular with this sort of thing.

I haven't seen much talk about barta FO, just foie and zonde. Issue being, I want to roll barta, and I was curious to whether or not freeze ignite is actually a viable thing? (worth getting to 10). Also for TE, I wanted to roll a light/dark hybrid. Grabbing light only for the resta increase, and, if poison ignite is also viable, grabbing that and pp convert. Basically creating a nukey controller.

Here's a link for my current thought process:

http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.html?iYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIbdA000000i b00000fdB00000ib00004OjqnJcJk0000f4O7dI2IkmsJ0007

I have a couple more questions: I like cards, I just enjoy the idea of fighting with cards as opposed to rods and such, and was a fan of them in pso, but they were generally weaker than their rod counterparts, what are the current pros and cons of using them in pso2? And also, CO SP, as it says there in the build simulator, comes from where exactly? How soon can it be obtained? I'm assuming it's from maybe quests or something, further explanation would be greatly appreciated.

Keep in mind that I enjoy using ice spells as my specialty, and am not really wanting to roam in any other direction. Also I would prefer to keep dark, unless it's absolute crap then I'm fine with going pure light. Thanks in advance for all your help.

[Dextro]

Keep in mind that I enjoy using ice spells as my specialty, and am not really wanting to roam in any other direction. Also I would prefer to keep dark, unless it's absolute crap then I'm fine with going pure light.
Thanks in advance for all your help.

This is the optimal skilltree for the Ice-focused playstyle you outlined. (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.html?iYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIbdA000000i b00000fdB00000ib00004OI22SGFqnrAIx00004O7dI2J2qx5b 0006)

As for your other questions:
- Freeze Ignition is awful; Poison Ignition gets only slightly more utility.
- Talis are still weaker than rods or wands.
Pros: Techs are cast from the card, rather than yourself.
Cons: Techs are cast from the card, rather than yourself.
-SP quests are available at 35 & 45, each requires a certain # of boss kills.

[SPOILER-BOX]That build sticky sure is sounding good right about now[/SPOILER-BOX]

[UnLucky]

I haven't seen much talk about barta FO,Hah!

Issue being, I want to roll barta
Oh my

I was curious to whether or not freeze ignite is actually a viable thingNo.

Also for TE, I wanted to roll a light/dark hybrid. Grabbing light only for the resta increase, and, if poison ignite is also viable, grabbing that and pp convert. Basically creating a nukey controller.
Poison Ignite is in every way better than Freeze Ignite. It is still not viable.


Here's a link for my current thought process:
http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.html?iYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIbdA000000i b00000fdB00000ib00004OjqnJcJk0000f4O7dI2IkmsJ0007
Oh no. No this will not do. Not at all. Here is my Ice Build (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.html?uAIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIbIn00000 0ib00000ib00000ib0000kbI22SdxjbnbnIk00064O7dI2J2qx 5b0006). Yes, built specifically for Barta techs (and Dark).

See, maxed Photon Flare and its Advance is +400 T-Atk. That's not even equal to your base at lv50, and doesn't match your weapon either (which can easily be more). If it doubled your total T-Atk, it would only be a 25% increase on average because it's only active 30sec out of 2min. So it's more like an 8-10% increase.

PP Charge revival will give you back 5PP every time you charge an Ice tech, or 7 with max PP Restorate, or a crazy amount with PP Convert (exactly 21 with lv10 PPR and lv3 PPC).

Tech Charge Advance(s) and Tech JA Advance will give all your techs 133% damage altogether. Much more than Photon Flare and the extra 4% you get going from lv1 to lv5 Ice Mastery.

As for Resta Advance, it's not really worth it. You'll get fully healed in a single cast anyway, so that extra 30 or so HP per tick won't save you. If you want me to explain my other Techer tree choices, just ask.


I have a couple more questions: I like cards, I just enjoy the idea of fighting with cards as opposed to rods and such, and was a fan of them in pso, but they were generally weaker than their rod counterparts, what are the current pros and cons of using them in pso2?
Yeah, they're weaker. Their best use is for hitting the backs of enemies while in front of them, as that can often be a weak point, or casting area techs at a distance that are normally centered around the caster. They take some getting used to, since you'll likely cast a buff or heal way off in the distance by accident, and you can usually cover half the distance of the card on foot anyway so its not as useful as you might think.


And also, CO SP, as it says there in the build simulator, comes from where exactly? How soon can it be obtained? I'm assuming it's from maybe quests or something, further explanation would be greatly appreciated.At lv30 and 45, you unlock a Client Order that rewards 5SP for that class. Every class gets their own.

[octave]

So grab wand gear. Boost damage of charged abilities out the ass, don't worry about ignition, and one point into bolt...?

Also, 65/60. I'm sure there's a reason for this, what is it?

I'm really sad about ignition being a failure. It seems like such a spiffy concept.

[octave]

@ Unlucky.

I like how your ice build has no ice.

[octave]

Ok so. Basically everything in every other tree is better than anything in the ice tree? It looks as if you just grab all the PP restore abilities and then do whatever abilities you want. Which isn't bad, I suppose.

Man, I'm so disappointed.

[blace]

The Tech JA and Tech Charge 1 and 2 increases damage for techs overall. I follow a similar build to his and my ice techs damage rivals my wind and lightning tech damage.

[UnLucky]

Right yes, lv55 cap (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.html?uAIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIbIn00000 0ib00000ib00000ib0000kbI22SGKjbnbnIk00064O7dIkJ2qx 5b0006)

The tree builder only goes up to 50 (old level cap) so you can get up to 65 points now.

I'm not even joking about that, the ice tree is really bad, even for ice techs. Also the first point in an elemental mastery skill is 5%, so it's generally worth it.

Edit: Also you can totally go with Poison Ignition if you really want. Just I'd suggest getting Element Weak Hit instead since you've got three main elements to switch between.

[octave]

Right yes, lv55 cap (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.html?uAIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIYIkIbIn00000 0ib00000ib00000ib0000kbI22SGKjbnbnIk00064O7dIkJ2qx 5b0006)

The tree builder only goes up to 50 (old level cap) so you can get up to 65 points now.

I'm not even joking about that, the ice tree is really bad, even for ice techs. Also the first point in an elemental mastery skill is 5%, so it's generally worth it.

(should have clicked the link first)

Thanks for your help, this is extremely useful, and I would have been pissed had I not came here first.

[Dextro]

So grab wand gear. Boost damage of charged abilities out the ass, don't worry about ignition, and one point into bolt...?

Also, 65/60. I'm sure there's a reason for this, what is it?

I'm really sad about ignition being a failure. It seems like such a spiffy concept.

You don't have to take wand gear if you don't want to. I just assume you'll only have 1 tree on each class, so you may as well get it.

The first point into Bolt mastery boosts it by 5%, you can remove it and put into Just Reversal if you want, it's your call.

The level cap is 55, the 10 additional SP comes from quests.

[UnLucky]

If you're really interested, Dextro's tree will give you:
120%(Ice)*120%(Ice 2)*110%(Charge)*105%(Charge 2) = 166% Ice techs, 138% Light, and 145% Dark

Mine would be
120%(Ice)*110%(Charge)*110%(Charge 2)*110%(JA) = 159% Ice techs, 159% Light, and 167% Dark.

But with his you'd get the 200 T-Atk from Photon Flare. Also I assume instead of Wand Gear/Poison Ignite lv1, he'd have 5 more points in Light Mastery. Wand gear is unnecessary on a Force, though you might want it if you run as a Techer and don't opt for a Talis. Wands are also weaker than Rods and have a longer attack animation which slows down casting (haven't check this latest patch, but I doubt it has changed).

[octave]

So really it's a battle between tech JA and photon flare. How often can photon flare be used? Is it enough of an increase to make up for downtime dps? It seems maxing the charge tech and tech JA is probably the way to go, due to the ability to constantly put out a regular amount of damage without having to worry about 1 cooldown.

[Dextro]

If we're talking about Ice techs in particular, then they'll still hit harder than with Unlucky's Tree, even without Photon Flare active.
However, the main point of my tree isn't really Photon Flare, it's Ice Tech damage potential. (Plus you get to play with Freeze Ignition! ...yay?)

Since you'd already be invested in the Ice Tree, any new skills they might add in the next update -such as Ice Mastery3 or....whatever else they come up with - are easily within reach.
Even if they don't add Mastery3 with the 60cap, you'll still be able to use the extra 5sp pts to take Tech Charge Adv. II, or one of the Photon Flare skills to 10.

With UnLucky's Tree, there is no further room for Ice damage improvement - unless for some reason they add Tech Charge Adv. III directly underneath the first.
However, you'll be much more well-rounded if you take his tree, as you get great boosts to every single other element too.
It really depends how dead set you are with this 'Ice FO' thing.

[octave]

Well if you look at it the way of ice vs everything, Unlucky's build has bolt damage, and dex's doesn't. But dex's does more ice damage. I want ice damage. I would rather have ignition than bolt pp save, because well, im not planning on using bolt enough for it to be a thing. At least i could ignite once in a while :P

Interesting choices. I'm probably going to go with yours though dex, as the increase in ice is going to be the deciding factor.

Though Unlucky's does more dark and light. I'm guessing that's those 5 extra points in charge II? What if I moved 5 points from Ice mastery 2 and put them in charge 2? Would that be worth it or no?

[UnLucky]

You can use http://cirnopedia.frostsabre.com/ as an easy reference for each point in a skill.

Lowering Ice Mastery 2 from lv10 to lv5 is a drop of 11% Ice for 5% Charge. The main reason for going bolt (for you) is for the JA Advance. And because of the way skills stack, going from 110%-120% in a single skill is slightly less than 100%-110% in an entirely separate one.

Switching the numbers as you suggest would become 158% Ice, 145% Light, and 152% Dark.

As I've said, Photon Flare is too little too infrequently. It always lasts 30s with 120s cooldown, and with the bare minimum for Ice Mastery 2, you'd get 200 T-Atk during that window. Obviously leads into using PP Convert at the same time to raise the average, but still wouldn't exactly make up for it while they're down. For reference, you'd have over 500 base T-Atk at cap (and like 400+ at lv30), 500 T-Atk with a common Rod, or upwards of 900 with a rare, plus affixes on your gear and up to 150 from your mag.

Ice Ignition would make for a decent free attack every minute, but you've got to be pretty close, and you can't let the frozen target get hit before you activate the skill or they'll break free.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

Ok I know you dont want to hear this but ice tree is probably the worst in the game with wind being a close runnerup.

Freeze status is horrible. It breaks after one hit and everything you can freeze dies so fast it doesn't matter. Because of that freeze ignition is one of the worst skills to have - PERIOD

Assuming you did get photon flare, as an example I have nearly 2000 T atk atm. +400 is only a 25% gain. it's got a 120 second cooldown and 30 seconds active time. This means it's going to be active for only 25% of a mission at best. 25% of 25% is 6.25 so you're talking 6% bonus damage for 20SP at current end game.

Lastly almost nothing is weak to ice so you'll be doing sub par damage to 95% of the enemies out there for over specializing in a tree that contributes nothing outside of one area.

When I started I was dead set on going ice tree myself until I saw what a waste it was. Now I run Fire/Lightning which covers nearly everything in the game and for the stuff it doesn't I still have techs that are either doing good damage for almost no PP cost or absurd damage in raw DPS just from casting speed alone.

Lastly, unlucky said this already but talis is a pretty situational weapon since it's notably weaker than rod and only really has a few practical uses. for actual damage, 99% of the time, rod is going to be better.

[Seravi Edalborez]

Put it this way: when you invest in the "standard" stuff on Fire/Lightning trees, you stilll can use Ice if you want. The only practical thing Ice tree gives you (others have covered why Photon Flare is a bad investment) is Ice Mastery. When you get Tech Charge Advance and (possibly) Tech JA Advance, you improve your tech damage for everything rather than only the worst element.

Thought for food.

[octave]

All interesting points. I'm probably going to have to rethink my build entirely now, and that sucks, because I love ice.

If it's really as bad as you imply, then I may just have to become a jack of all trades. I don't really care for specializing in foie or zonde.

And if they buff ice in the future, or make ignition actually viable, I won't mind putting some cash into that. Until then, blah.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

if you dont invest in the fire tree you're really gimping yourself hard. PP Charge revival is a must have, you're destroying your dps without it and removing all reason to sub techer. additionally all the good general purpose damage buffs for techer are in fire and lightning. Charge advance 1&2 and Tech JA Advance are amazing skills to have. And again since almost everything is weak to one or the other it would be silly not to invest in them. Anything weak to light is weak to one of the two and rare versions of monsters that were weak to light drop their light weakness so investing in light mastery beyond requirements of skills in the tree is also a bad move. Dark skills have some use outside of elemental weakness but not by much and again only one area really has enemies weak to the element.

I have a build that I posted in another thread with explanations on most of this. Unless the skill trees get a massive revamp, it's really not worth going too far outside the lines on this one I'm afraid.

[ShinMaruku]

I wonder if they gave photon flare under the ice tree because of how subpar performance with the ice tree and they put that as a band-aid. Because that would explain why it's so gated under that bullshit. I hope when we get the revamp they move that to a better part of the tree.

[Shiyo]

Lastly, unlucky said this already but talis is a pretty situational weapon since it's notably weaker than rod and only really has a few practical uses. for actual damage, 99% of the time, rod is going to be better.
This is wrong, talis is an amazing weapon and superior to rod in many situations. You should be using both if you want to play force at 100% efficiency. It's nowhere near 99%, it's 60/40 at the least.

AOEing a ton of lightning or light weak mobs? Zondeel/gigrants is godly vs them. Zondeel is especially insanely good if you have territory burst. AOEing tons of fire weak mobs? Gifoe will be much better than rafoie. Kartagot mob weak points are easily hit by throwing talis - > AOE instead of running all the way over or s lowly aiming. Plus, zondeel is an incredible crowd control tool for capture codes, and rounding up mobs for melee players to sonic arrow/DA spam down. Vol dragon? Talis is by far the best weapon for breaking his horns. Malmoth? Talis hits his weak point very easily.

Talis also lets you heal/buff/dispel from very far away, it requires much more concentration to use but the situations it's useful for come in very often, and it's very handy to learn how to use it properly.

[Seravi Edalborez]

Having 150 less T-ATK (comparing Liewen Book / Maisen to Elder Rod, we will at least be fair/realistic and not compare Talis to Psycho Wand) is a rather large hit in damage just for the little perks Talis provides. You described situations of utility. Rod excels in damage, period.

Talis isn't THAT weak. It's certainly not in the same crap boat as Wands (weaker and slower put together). But it's weakER than Rods. It's not like you can't have both weapons though.

[Shiyo]

You do not compare maisen to elder rod, what the fuck lol. Elder weapons are stronger than other ones and talis has no elder weapon. You compare demonic fork to maisen(127 tattk difference), or lambda visburn to Lambda Garland(119) ~120 tattk difference barely matters when you're using much better attacks with wider AOE and less PP consumption. Talis is great, if I'm aoeing a ton of mobs I'm always going to use talis and kill faster than some rafoie/gizonde spammer and have much more PP afterwards. Sorry you can't lock on and face roll with a talis :(

Techer just needs a complete skill tree revamp.

[UnLucky]

The main thing that kills Talis for me (other than straight up damage) is that it roots you in place when throwing cards.

So you either jump right after to regain mobility, missing your JA and killing your damage, or you wait a full second for the card to reach your target before casting. By the time your AoE is charged up in the distance, a Rod user already shot off a long range tech and closed the distance, ready to pop a close range AoE.

Kartagot weak point can be hit with Foie or Rafoie by grazing their side or aiming at their wing/arm. Or if they open up, their weak point is tab selectable from the front.

For Vol, just manual aim or lock onto his front horn/face/tail. How hard is that? If you use (Gi)Barta or Samegid you really don't need to aim precisely. Plus if he ever gets frozen, stunned, or runs past you, you can lock onto his top horn. Maybe it would be better to use a Talis at first, but using it the entire fight is slower.

And trying to 'support' is still a nightmare with a Talis unless your entire team is melee and attacking the same enemy. Best thing you can do is Zondeel from a distance, but switching to Talis just for that isn't worth carrying one.


All interesting points. I'm probably going to have to rethink my build entirely now, and that sucks, because I love ice.

If it's really as bad as you imply, then I may just have to become a jack of all trades. I don't really care for specializing in foie or zonde.
The build I gave you still does more damage with Ice than Fire/Lightning/Wind, so at least there's that.

[Shiyo]

The main thing that kills Talis for me (other than straight up damage) is that it roots you in place when throwing cards.

So you either jump right after to regain mobility, missing your JA and killing your damage, or you wait a full second for the card to reach your target before casting. By the time your AoE is charged up in the distance, a Rod user already shot off a long range tech and closed the distance, ready to pop a close range AoE.

Kartagot weak point can be hit with Foie or Rafoie by grazing their side or aiming at their wing/arm. Or if they open up, their weak point is tab selectable from the front.

For Vol, just manual aim or lock onto his front horn/face/tail. How hard is that? If you use (Gi)Barta or Samegid you really don't need to aim precisely. Plus if he ever gets frozen, stunned, or runs past you, you can lock onto his top horn. Maybe it would be better to use a Talis at first, but using it the entire fight is slower.

And trying to 'support' is still a nightmare with a Talis unless your entire team is melee and attacking the same enemy. Best thing you can do is Zondeel from a distance, but switching to Talis just for that isn't worth carrying one.


The build I gave you still does more damage with Ice than Fire/Lightning/Wind, so at least there's that.
"Talis is too hard for me to use so I think it's bad"
ok

[Seravi Edalborez]

"Talis is too hard for me to use so I think it's bad"
ok

High horse much?

I don't know why you feel Elder Rod shouldn't be compared to Maisen. 27 more T-ATK than Demonic Fork, with Windy Shaft only a little less than Fork. Big deal.

Nobody is saying Talis is garbage. It has uses. But for situations where it performs equally to Rod, you may as well be using Rod for the ~100+ extra T-ATK. And you can just freaking use both.

Talis only or Rod only camps are about as logical as "Rafoie only" or "Elder Rebellion only".

[UnLucky]

"Talis is too hard for me to use so I think it's bad"
ok
"I spent millions on an inferior weapon so I'm going to lie to myself and others to try and justify it."
ok

[Z-0]

Talis has a very small number of uses where it's actually better than Rod. Personally, I don't think it's worth the investment if you manage to find a 10* rod before a 10* talis, but whatever.

Why do I read these threads... ?

PS: Foie Grazing makes rod very uber, as it has A LOT of range and it AoEs large groups with ease because foie is very thick. People keep complaining about Rafoie spam but anyone who knows how to FO knows Foie beats it in most situations (more damage + more AoE, rafoie is more for fast moving targets, hitting specific spots on enemies or hitting stuff on the other side of enemies).

[ShinMaruku]

Where does that wonderful rod drop. I wants it!

[Z-0]

Umbra Rod -> Mr. Umblla
Windy Shaft -> Windras
Demonic Fork -> Gilnachs
Elder Rod -> Dark Falz Elder
Psycho Wand (lol) -> Dark Falz Elder

In increasing power from top-to-bottom.

[gigawuts]

Fuck, a lambda garland is also going to get you some wonderful raw damage output for better grinding than a 10* - especially after the change.

re: Talis
It has its uses. Those uses are pretty much just casting AOE at range, due to either safety or throwing a talis being faster than running. Prime examples are waves of spargans/spardanAs in mines, and a slurping gwanahda. Zondeel/Gigrants for the former, Gigrants for the latter.

Rod will outperform it pretty much across the board the rest of the time. Resta/shifta/deband/etc. at range also count as "casting AOE at range."

On Tector you'll get some great use out of Talis, but only because wands are comparatively mediocre and the lambda cressdigger STILL does not exist for some bizarre reason.

[ShinMaruku]

I will have to make it a personal mission to knock all those fuckers out.
I want my long smooth shafts for my newman female.....

[Shiyo]

It shouldn't be compared because elder weapons cannot be compared to non-elder weapons. They are a tier above non-elder weapons, and talis doesn't get an elder weapon.

[ShinMaruku]

What's the stat requirement for those pretties?
I'm at 819 tech attack >_>

[Seravi Edalborez]

It shouldn't be compared because elder weapons cannot be compared to non-elder weapons. They are a tier above non-elder weapons, and talis doesn't get an elder weapon.

If you're counting Elder Pain and the 11*+ weapons in that statement, sure.
If not (Rod/Fist/Rifle), it's only 33/27/0 difference from the 2nd best. Which is as much as some 10* weapons are to their second best anyways.


What's the stat requirement for those pretties?
I'm at 819 tech attack >_>

No you're not. And check Cirnopedia.
Edit: Your base stats (what you need to equip things) is what applies for requirements. Which is just your base, your sub's 20% stats, any skills, and your mag. Strip all of your weapons and units to see your base. Or check the (parentheses) number on your weapon.

[octave]

Anything weak to light is weak to one of the two and rare versions of monsters that were weak to light drop their light weakness so investing in light mastery beyond requirements of skills in the tree is also a bad move. Dark skills have some use outside of elemental weakness but not by much and again only one area really has enemies weak to the element.

So what are you suggesting that I do?

[Bellion]

What's the stat requirement for those pretties?
I'm at 819 tech attack >_>

If 819 was your base T-atk, you'd be able to equip everything. I would assume you don't have 819 base T-atk unless you decided to put points in T-atk ups in your skill tree. That wouldn't be a good thing since you want multipliers more than base stats.

[Seravi Edalborez]

Huh, actually had to check and with a 150 T-ATK mag and maxing all 4 T-ATK Ups (don't do this it is stupid) you would have 878 T-ATK as newman female FO/TE.

[ShinMaruku]

Thanks for those answers. And I know my base is not 819 that's with my units.

[gigawuts]

It shouldn't be compared because elder weapons cannot be compared to non-elder weapons. They are a tier above non-elder weapons, and talis doesn't get an elder weapon.

What doesn't exist doesn't matter - what does exist matters.

You're basically saying one shouldn't count because it's better. Well, them's the breaks. Take it up with Sakai. Fact is, one has a higher damage advantage than the other.

And, if we're going to be purely objective here, yeah... rods are generally about 18% stronger than comparable talises. If an elder talis were to exist, it would sit at about 756 damage to the elder rod's 893. Use 6*'s, lambda garland & lambda vishburn, etc. to compare. This difference will only be exaggerated by the increasing importance placed on weapons. They keep gaining more stats than our base stats do.

[Rob2003ert]

Huh, actually had to check and with a 150 T-ATK mag and maxing all 4 T-ATK Ups (don't do this it is stupid) you would have 878 T-ATK as newman female FO/TE.

At 55/55 GU/RA can actually hit 800 pretty reasonably, gotta forgo Standing Snipe and (maxing) Zero Range Advance, but both of those are situational boosts you might not get all the time anyway so it makes up for the slightly less optimal damage a bit there. Can't really justify it on FO/TE though.

[Seravi Edalborez]

Can't really justify it on FO/TE though.

Yeah. Even ignoring that % is usually better than static, T-ATK Up 2 is inconvenient on both FO (needs Burn Mastery 2) and TE (late in Wind tree).

[UnLucky]

So what are you suggesting that I do?
You can rip through any dragonkin with Ice or Dark, and every Darker with Light techs. Any boosted enemy (the ones with a Dark Seed somewhere on their body) will be weak to Ice. Naberius natives are weak to wind, and Zan is good enough even without any points in its mastery.

If you'll enjoy using those elements over the common fire/bolt specs, just go with that. It may not be the ultimate strongest choice for all situations, but it's not an outright terrible idea to go with either Dextro's or my tree.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

You do not compare maisen to elder rod, what the fuck lol. Elder weapons are stronger than other ones and talis has no elder weapon. You compare demonic fork to maisen(127 tattk difference), or lambda visburn to Lambda Garland(119) ~120 tattk difference barely matters when you're using much better attacks with wider AOE and less PP consumption. Talis is great, if I'm aoeing a ton of mobs I'm always going to use talis and kill faster than some rafoie/gizonde spammer and have much more PP afterwards. Sorry you can't lock on and face roll with a talis :(

Techer just needs a complete skill tree revamp.

ROFL

..wait

....wait




..............OK

Did you seriously just say that the talis that is tied for first should not be compared to the Rod that takes a clear second because the Rod has a clear advantage? They're both 10* and barring P Wand the best in their weapon class. If one were a rank behind you might have a case, but 10* Elder weapons are no different from Ruins drops in terms of value(for example Avenger is actually better than Elder Rifle since it's multiclass and the stats are otherwise identical and Liewen Book is exactly the same as Maisen.) Anyway it just so happens that for Elder Rod, it's the best Rod currently available aside from P Wand which is so rare it's not even considered.

Anyway Talis is always weaker than Rod and since it has to be thrown again every few seconds it doesn't lend itself to DPS like rods do. The few situations where it is better are not important enough that most people would bother or SHOULD bother dumping meseta into enhancing one. If that's your weapon of choice more power to you, but don't come here and start lying to others to make yourself feel better about gimping yourself. It's the lesser of two weapons and that's a fact. Doesn't make it useless but the way this game is designed right now it may as well be.

PS: Admittedly, Talis is probably a better casting weapon if you're maining techer. There's only one decent rod out there for multiclassing and it's Umbila Stick, which is only 55 T atk better than Maisen/Liewen Book and is arguably much harder to come by. It's also impractical to argue for a single weapon which is sure to be outdated soon to disqualify an entire weapon class. Conversely, The two Wands which beat out Maisen/Liewen Book for damage do it by less than Umbila stick and as we all know have a slower recovery speed for casting making them less than ideal for tech spamming.

Anyway, think before you talk. Your arguments are always anecdotal and speak for personal preference rather than sheer pragmatism. You continue to try to argue like you're the only person who has a clue about this game and yet at every turn your "absolute facts" get smacked down. The sad thing is you don't even realize you lose more and more credibility every time you start one of these arguments. I'm happy to let you have your opinion. Play the way you want. But for all that is sacred, chill out and stop trying to take everyone else down a peg. It's embarrassing and it's enough to make me not want to try to even explain things to people for fear that I'm going to have to have to justify math itself so people don't actually take comments like "talis is superior to rod," "Zonde is now the best tech in the game and "you can't compare best 10* to best 10*"seriously.



You can rip through any dragonkin with Ice or Dark, and every Darker with Light techs. Any boosted enemy (the ones with a Dark Seed somewhere on their body) will be weak to Ice. Naberius natives are weak to wind, and Zan is good enough even without any points in its mastery.

If you'll enjoy using those elements over the common fire/bolt specs, just go with that. It may not be the ultimate strongest choice for all situations, but it's not an outright terrible idea to go with either Dextro's or my tree.

Are you advising that he skip PP Charge revival and a total of over 30% in damage bonuses just cause Bolt and Fire aren't his favs?

[UnLucky]

Are you advising that he skip PP Charge revival and a total of over 30% in damage bonuses just cause Bolt and Fire aren't his favs?
What? No, did you look at the trees we advised? You can do fine with a mainly ice build. As long as you get PP Charge Revival, Tech Charge Advance(s), and your elemental mastery of choice, you won't be absurdly outclassed.

"Fine" and "absurdly" being the key words here.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

really not much of an ice build if that's the case. more of a "not planning to spam safoie" build. Still seems like a waste

[UnLucky]

Yes, well, packing everything essential and useful and good in the flame tree, but everything worthless and garbage and bad in the ice tree is more of a waste. They couldn't fit Normal Tech Advance in the ice tree so bolt had to take it.

But you really can't top the numbers per cast unless you sacrifice both of the other elements anyway. Sure fire and bolt can both be cast more often than ice, and ice isn't the most strategic weakness to take, and ice techs aren't as versatile even disregarding the first two points... . .

This has been a hard thread for me, but I would still recommend an Ice/Light/Dark spread for octave.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

Lol like I said when I started I was planning on maining ice techs til I realized how utterly worthless ice was both as a skill tree and as techs. Even deband is meh(shifta is too, mostly but dat fire tree). I just can't in good consciousness tell someone to focus on ice at all because I know they're going to be sub par in almost every way.

[gigawuts]

Ice is bad, and it's not bad because of its damage (it actually does have bad damage, but that's passable because of the useful flinching - so that's not what really makes it bad). It's slow, clunky, and has too small range for the kinds of attacks it has (gibarta is a moderate exception). Rabarta and gibarta will break freeze inflicted by itself - that exact attack can break the freeze it itself inflicted. I'm serious. That should not be possible.

Ice's biggest flaw, though, is its range. It's meant to be for crowd control, but it's the only element that doesn't boost its role. Fire gets more damage, lightning gets more spam, ice gets...30 seconds of a bit more damage? You get to shatter two bosses and trash mobs? Uh? It should've gotten a great boost to range like fire and lightning got great boosts.

The one attack it REALLY needed to be great, sabarta, is even more of a disaster. It costs a lot, it's probably the longest charging tech in the game, and it doesn't follow targets it can't lock into place. It. Is. Awful. It's like if they took grants and said "Hey guys, what if we removed the only good features about this tech, like its damage and its tracking and its light element?"

Ice has a lot of room for improvement. I really would not advise pooling into it. I'd much sooner advise generalizing and just using ice anyway, unless you're willing to buy another tree. Out of everyone I've heard of pooling into ice, I know of literally zero that were glad they did it.