3/22 Future changes, and Zonde weakening and skill reset in April~~

[Sizustar]

Source - http://pso2.jp/players/news/?id=1138

1. Player request
Please enable Dodo to grind and add ability to locked equip.

Dev Response
Enable grinding of locked equip
Enable secondary option to choose locked item to be used for ability or element or have it not appear

2. Player request - SP Quest requirement is too high

Dev Response
The requirement for Ozo, Marloo, and Risa SP quest is reduced

3. Player Request - The Wire-lance skill, グラップルチャージ(Grapple Charge) is hard to use

Dev Response
Even if the grapple part didn't connect, the PC will still do the kick attack.

4. Balancing the Technic Zonde

Dev responce
After the Jan, 23 change to zonde change of determining where it strike was changed(Previously, it was on the ground, so Zonde can't hit Big Vardha correctly) it also had the unintended effect of increasing it's power greatly, we believe this unbalance the game greatly, and had sought other option of balancing besideing reducing, but was not able to reach a conclusion, I am sorry that I cannot offer another solution beside reducing the tech Zonde.
As a dev, I apologize for this mistake, and will announce a schedule and more info at a later date.
Also since I will be doing skill tree adjustment in april, I will be distributing a item that will reset all skill tree as an apology for this instance

-Updated description of Locked item change

[Maronji]

Enable grinding of locked equip
Enable option to choose locked item to be used for ability or element
Should've had that from the start, if you ask me.

The requirement for Ozo, Marloo, and Risa SP quest is reduced
About time. I still have trouble either finding the right amount of rare Rappies or finding Ragne outside of CH07 and Naberius II TA.

Even if the grapple part didn't connect, the PC will still do the kick attack.
Nothing special, but neat nonetheless.

After the Jan, 23 change to zonde change of determining where it strike was changed(Previously, it was on the ground, so Zonde can't hit Big Vardha correctly) it also had the unintended effect of increasing it's power greatly, we believe this unbalance the game greatly, and had sought other option of balancing besideing reducing, but was not able to reach a conclusion, I am sorry that I cannot offer another solution beside reducing the tech Zonde.
You know that 5-second video of YouTube of Captain Picard from Star Trek: First Contact doing that epic "No!" scream? Yeah.

Also since I will be doing skill tree adjustment in april, I will be distributing a item that will reset all skill tree as an apology for this instance
...Well, okay. I'll (kinda) forgive you, Sega. Still disappointed over that Zonde nerf, though.

EDIT: Nixed the video I linked to and replaced it with text because I figured that posting videos in reaction to changes was a tad silly.

[Ryock]

I don't mind them nerfing Zonde, but there needs to be a better way to balance this. It's just going to keep going back to Rafoie or spamming a single technique to get through most situations. There isn't enough difference of damage to warrant using an element an enemy is weak to. As it stands right now, Rafoie and Foie cannot compare to Zonde at all in most situations. But it won't really fix the problem of spamming a few techniques to solve nearly all issues.

[Shadowth117]

As a big fan of the force class I'm GLAD Zonde is being nerfed. Its really, really dumb how powerful it is right now. I still think other techs like dark, wind, ice, and the other lightning techs should be buffed, but its good that they're doing this at least.

Other changes are nice too, even if they don't all directly affect my usual play.

[Inazuma]

As a force player, I knew they would weaken zonde at some point. Not only is it the strongest tech of all, it also has the lowest PP cost. Talk about horrible balance. While it's nice to just use zonde all the time and pretty much one-shot everything with great ease, it makes the game less interesting. I used to use a lot of different techs and elements, until they made zonde OP.

It is strange to do floating continent in a party of 4 forces and have no one using dark techs. I have a techter skill tree with full dark mastery and element weak hit, yet zonde remains the best tech to use.

[Soultrigger]

Zonde is fairly broken, and it doesn't help that a majority of enemies are weak to Lightning. Not just from a class balance perspective but also tech balance, I think nerfing it is a step in the right direction.

Ice tree needs some serious tweaking. Change Photon Flare to % and make Freeze Ignition long range/huge AOE/powerful. I wonder if JP players are vocal about this.

[Sizustar]

Zonde is fairly broken, and it doesn't help that a majority of enemies are weak to Lightning. Not just from a class balance perspective but also tech balance, I think nerfing it is a step in the right direction.

Ice tree needs some serious tweaking. Change Photon Flare to % and make Freeze Ignition long range/huge AOE/powerful. I wonder if JP players are vocal about this.

It was due to overwhelming player response that this change to zonde is being done.

[Seraphus]

It was due to overwhelming player response that this change to zonde is being done.

And it's most likely because they all went with with Foie trees. Let's be real here, instead of people using Zonde for everything now, it will be back to Foie techs like it was before. They need to buff the other techs with this Zonde nerf.

[Shadowth117]

Zonde is fairly broken, and it doesn't help that a majority of enemies are weak to Lightning. Not just from a class balance perspective but also tech balance, I think nerfing it is a step in the right direction.

Ice tree needs some serious tweaking. Change Photon Flare to % and make Freeze Ignition long range/huge AOE/powerful. I wonder if JP players are vocal about this.

Photon flare would suck regardless honestly. I would suggest making it some kind of stance or something because even as a percentage boost, 30 seconds for that is just terrible. Its going to need some serious work to be even semi feasible. Especially given the fact that currently with it activated on a maxed out Photon Flare comboed with partial fire tree that it won't be more powerful than a normal foie from a fire tree even with it activated. Without it activated, techs are just abysmally weak.

As for freeze ignition being better, the technique is... decent for what it is. Its more that anything that relies on putting a status effect on in the first place (especially since it can't be done to all enemies) is generally a pretty bad way to spec towards in the first place.

[Ce'Nedra]

So we soon need 1 Quartz 1 Vardha 1 Fang Banther instead of 7/7/1 or something?

Locked weapon grind and affixing is a nice addition though. Nothing to bothersome but its sweet they change it.

[Soultrigger]

About applying SEs... I think this is more of a problem with mobs being one-shotted by everything in the game. It could be viable with resilient mobs, but with the way the game is scaled now, applying SEs is "inefficient" just because you can one/two shot things anyways.

In theory, you could use mobs as "Freeze Bombs" against bosses. In my ideal scenario, at least. (I'd probably remove the unnecessary cooldown, or at least drastically reduce it)

I actually thought Photon Flare was a stance (lol). Maybe dedicate Ice Tree as burst damage and make Photon Flare akin to Chain Trigger? I don't imagine a bursty Force being useful. Idk, I'd have to think about it more...

[CelestialBlade]

I like the locked-grinding thing, and skill tree resets = awesome. Don't play Force so I can't speak on the Zonde nerf much, but from what I'm hearing it needed it.

Making the SP quest easier seems kinda unnecessary, that quest made you feel like you earned something, but meh. Not worth making a fuss over in light of some positive changes.

[Zipzo]

As a Techer and a Force, the zonde change makes me really happy. So sick of Zonde.

[Syklo]

Source - http://pso2.jp/players/news/?id=1138

1. Player request
Please enable Dodo to grind and add ability to locked equip.

Dev Response
Enable grinding of locked equip
Enable option to choose locked item to be used for ability or element

This is ridiculous.
Seriously, this sort of breaks part of the function for locking items in the first place.
If you need to grind it, just go inventory>unlock.
Is it really that hard AND/OR inconvenient?
Unless I'm getting the definition of "lock" wrong, or whether grinding locked equipment would also be an "option", in which I'm fine with.

[DFC]

It's a bit boring spamming zonde 24/7, but now we will just go back to spamming foie and rafoie.

[Renvalt]

This is ridiculous.
Seriously, this sort of breaks part of the function for locking items in the first place.
If you need to grind it, just go inventory>unlock.
Is it really that hard AND/OR inconvenient?
Unless I'm getting the definition of "lock" wrong, or whether grinding locked equipment would also be an "option", in which I'm fine with.

"Locking" equipment makes it untradeable, even to NPC shops. This is dandy if you have a specific item you want to hold onto, but in your blindsight accidentally resell it and are now forced to buy back at an often "ridiculous" price.

I use it to keep track of specific items of value to me, and make sure I don't accidentally get rid of them when I'm not ready to do so.

I'm actually FOR this change. Unlocking an item takes hassle if you realize it's not in Dudu's grind menu. Which, btw, you can't add a locked item to a non-locked item, because in a sense that's the same as selling it.

[Seraphus]

And how bout when you accidentally select the wrong item to grind and spam the confirm button? Your +9 goes to +6 (although I don't keep my rares at <+10 for long). But I guess more customization of features is a good thing, if by option they mean we can change it in the settings menu. The WL PA and SP CO thing seem like the only real (small) steps in the right direction.

[reptile7383]

And how bout when you accidentally select the wrong item to grind and spam the confirm button? Your +9 goes to +6 (although I don't keep my rares at <+10 for long). But I guess more customization of features is a good thing, if by option they mean we can change it in the settings menu. The WL PA and SP CO thing seem like the only real (small) steps in the right direction.

Honestly, how often do people grind the wrong item?

[Laxedrane]

As far as SP concerned, the last one miffed me a bit. Hard to find a group to do the last set of bosses so many times through free field and only quartz reliable spawned if it as on free field if at all. SO if they reduce that I am very excited. Ragne and Rappies though. Those things are EVERYWHERE. I leveled 4 classes passed 40 and I never have a problem getting that order done before 5 levels after the quests unlocked. Maybe becuase I don't specificly go looking for them.XD

I am indifferent about zonde but I agree with everyone else in saying they really need to balance ice path more. Possibly move PP reversal to somewhere else too.(I think it should be just below just reversal or something. It's considered standard by almost everyone mines well make it easy to unlock and not have it sway what path they go down.)

[~Aya~]

Now I don't miss my FO so much anymore! Yay!

[Zipzo]

This is ridiculous.
Seriously, this sort of breaks part of the function for locking items in the first place.
If you need to grind it, just go inventory>unlock.
Is it really that hard AND/OR inconvenient?
Unless I'm getting the definition of "lock" wrong, or whether grinding locked equipment would also be an "option", in which I'm fine with.

How you could possibly take issue with this change is probably beyond every single other PSO2 players head.

[Bellion]

So, that would mean my locked fully ground and affixed weapons/units can be fodder, right? I'm going to have to deposit them every time I'm affixing something. ;_;

I'd be fine with grinding locked weapons, though.

[Soultrigger]

I think by being able to access locked weapons via the menu means you can affix them as the target, but they won't show up as ingredients/fodders. Basically treats them as being "equipped".

[mailsonds]

http://i.minus.com/iMVWyHTYR0fnt.png

[Seraphus]

""

And why did you post this exactly?

[Coatl]

And why did you post this exactly?

His way of saying nerfing zonde won't change much. And he's right, it won't.

[~Aya~]

And why did you post this exactly?


Actually appreciated his post. It shows you what you probably should be doing until they buff FO/TE. As well as not changing much because the FO/FI DMG will drop to around the FO/TE DMG

[Seraphus]

Actually appreciated his post. It shows you what you probably should be doing until they buff FO/TE. As well as not changing much because the FO/FI DMG will drop to around the FO/TE DMG

I believe there's pages full of discussion about FO/TE vs FO/FI. Zonde being nerfed has nothing to do with a different sub. So I don't see how that pic says nothing will change much.

[jooozek]

or maybe mailsonds is just showing zonde in its glory...

[Zipzo]

His way of saying nerfing zonde won't change much. And he's right, it won't.

That depends on how much it's nerfed, firstly. Secondly, I don't think that's what he's showing.

[Seraphus]

or maybe mailsonds is just showing zonde in its glory...

I find this to be a more acceptable answer.

(Just a note: FO/FI runs out of PP fast, definitely doesn't seem ideal for AQ's)

[Bellion]

With Bolt PP Save at 10 and Cetus Proi, you shouldn't really run out of PP since Cetus Proi fills fast with powerful Zonde/Zondeel spamming as a FO/FI in an AQ.

[Zipzo]

His way of saying nerfing zonde won't change much. And he's right, it won't.

That depends on how much it's nerfed, firstly. Secondly, I don't think that's what he's showing.

[Macman]

Knowing the way Sega handles balance changes (i.e.: WAY over-doing it) Zonde will be weaker than Gizan soon.

Guess we can just go back to spamming infinite-range insta-charge Rafoie everywhere. :wacko:

[SkyeNorvil]

Knowing the way Sega handles balance changes (i.e.: WAY over-doing it) Zonde will be weaker than Gizan soon.

Guess we can just go back to spamming infinite-range insta-charge Rafoie everywhere. :wacko:

Wonder how long it'll take for Rafoie to get nerfed?

[Poubelle]

I would rather the fire spells be strongest damage-wise. The Zonde spells just make my eyes hurt.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

get new eyes then o_o

[Poubelle]

I have perfection vision, but when Zonde fills up my entire screen with just this bright white on my WHOLE screen for multiple seconds, it's just stupid and annoying. I'm so over it.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

That doesn't sound like zonde >_>

[~Aya~]

I have perfection vision, but when Zonde fills up my entire screen with just this bright white on my WHOLE screen for multiple seconds, it's just stupid and annoying. I'm so over it.


Play with sunglasses.

[Enforcer MKV]

Eh, only thing I don't like is the change to locking, unless there's a toggle in options.

and yay, skill reset.

[UnLucky]

HAHAHA LONG LIVE THE FIRE TREE!

Zonde wasn't even the greatest thing to use in all situations. It had shorter range, small AoE, and reduced damage to secondary targets. Megid was better for groups of dark-weak enemies, though Zondeel was better still.

If they make Zonde's primary target take the same damage as the secondary ones, it's not a bad nerf. If they lower both, then yeah Zonde will suck again. Sazonde and Zondeel will still be great, though.

Guess I'm not making a pure-bolt tree with that reset...

[Zyrusticae]

I don't get some of you people.

Rafoie is shit. Shit AoE, shit damage, the only thing nice about it is its range and the fact that you don't need to aim with it whatsoever. Oh, and that it has fast charging thanks to the OP fire tree.

I still spam megid everywhere I go anyways, but this change is pretty sorely needed. But then, they also need to make some changes to ice techs and maybe they could give my beloved megid some buffs here and there (since almost nothing is vulnerable to dark anyway).

[Dextro]

It won't change much!
A charged Zondeel > Zonde will still kill pretty much any group of lv60 enemies in any area regardless, even if they take the extreme and cut it's damage in half.

Just think about it for a second, the worst case scenario is that you'll now have to hit an enemy twice instead of one-shotting it, and with pp save, is that even a problem?
You most likely don't 1shot anything in AQs anyway (save for Mines/Desert with a Full Lightning tree).
If an enemy has 6500hp, and you currently deal 5500dmg, and post-patch deal 3800dmg, it effectively changes nothing - still a 2 cast kill.

The only thing that will change is it won't be plausible to use Zonde over an element weakness on a random Ragne, Vol, Gwana, and other big stuff that isn't weak to lightning. Which is good.

@Unlucky
Make a bolt tree anyway! :D
It'll just be reset next month and you'll end up with 2 empty skill trees to play with.
Plus, if you make a bolt tree like this (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?03hNbdIkbdIkbdIkbdIkbdIkbdIk9TlbIn00 0000ib00000ib00000ib00004OI2eFIxjcAcAcF0007b00000f ), it'll still have really strong fire techs, to the point that the only thing you'll notice if you have to use fire is the slightly slower charge speed.

[Kondibon]

I don't get some of you people.

Rafoie is shit. Shit AoE, shit damage, the only thing nice about it is its range and the fact that you don't need to aim with it whatsoever. Oh, and that it has fast charging thanks to the OP fire tree.

I still spam megid everywhere I go anyways, but this change is pretty sorely needed. But then, they also need to make some changes to ice techs and maybe they could give my beloved megid some buffs here and there (since almost nothing is vulnerable to dark anyway).

I never got the obsession with Rafoie either, I mainly use it when I need speed and precision (like against banthers) otherwise I prefer grantz for that kind of thing. Otherwise I just use whatever I feel suits the situation.

As for Zonde's nerf, I don't mind the damage going down, I mostly combine it with Zondeel anyway. :P and like Dextro said that combo would kill pretty much anything even with zonde getting weaker.

[UnLucky]

I don't get some of you people.

Rafoie is shit. Shit AoE, shit damage, the only thing nice about it is its range and the fact that you don't need to aim with it whatsoever. Oh, and that it has fast charging thanks to the OP fire tree.

I still spam megid everywhere I go anyways, but this change is pretty sorely needed. But then, they also need to make some changes to ice techs and maybe they could give my beloved megid some buffs here and there (since almost nothing is vulnerable to dark anyway).

Same AoE as Zonde, but with full damage to all targets. Infinite range, instant tracking, and can travel through walls with a lock on. The damage is like half of Zonde on fire-weak enemies. With twice as fast casting, it's the easiest thing to use and isn't bad damage at all.

And then you have Foie and Safoie and Gifoie which are all good.

I'd only really want a "Zonde" tree to kill Falz stupid fast

[Zyrusticae]

Twice as fast casting = twice as fast out of PP

Still not enamored with fire techs, even with how OP the fire tree is.

Also zonde's AoE is pretty shit, you don't use Zonde for AoE, you use it because it does fuckwhat levels of damage. Also because Zondeel is too stronk

[NoiseHERO]

Gonna be great to watch all the noob forces scramble over what the most OP tech is.

I just want my free skill resets.

Call me when they start buffing/modifying fighter. <_<

[Macman]

Twice as fast casting = twice as fast out of PP
Faster than that even, because twice as fast casting = less time to make use of PP Charge Revival.

[UnLucky]

Not with a full PB gauge or PP Convert, but even still it just means you fill your PP more often and cast more often. More overall damage than anything other than continuous Zonde spam.

The AoE is pretty good for an instant cast autotarget. You can hit 5 Guardines by targeting the center one, or a small group of 3-4 standard mobs by aiming at the ground in the middle, a la launcher.

Probably the same or better AoE than Rabarta or Gizan, actually.

[Z-0]

Yeah but you kill everything anyway so you won't run out of PP. I play my force in TPS about... 99% of the time when I'm using the fire tree, and foie's AoE allows me to hit most targets which means I don't run out of PP, and I'm regenerating between spawns.

Also PP Builds. If you're doing something like FO/FI, pimp yourself out with a full wing set with Elder Souls and Spirita Boosts, and FO/TE with level 6 PP Convert and max PP Restorate will kee py your PP up. You can also increase your PP if you want for Convert's downtime, and you still won't run out of PP often except in really long bursts, and even then you can keep PP up forever if you organise in your group (I once had a Tundra burst for about 10 minutes as a fire FO/FI, and I never ran out of PP because 3 of us kept using Ketos one after the other and sharing the restoration).

Also, I'm not so sure why everyone is complaining about fire. After Very Hard, even with a fire tree, other techs were used in their respective areas because you'd easily outdamage and it'd be more sustainable for things like MPA'ing and Bursts. Even after Zonde's nerf, Zonde will still be quite powerful and useful in a few situations, as will fire, and other techniques will be used where appropriate.

Zonde wasn't even the best for everything when it buffed anyway, it was just the easiest to use.

[gigawuts]

Source - http://pso2.jp/players/news/?id=1138

1. Player request
Please enable Dodo to grind and add ability to locked equip.

Dev Response
Enable grinding of locked equip
Enable option to choose locked item to be used for ability or element
A second lock option would be nice so I can't accidentally reverse my +9 items.


2. Player request - SP Quest requirement is too high

Dev Response
The requirement for Ozo, Marloo, and Risa SP quest is reducedNeat these were tedious.


3. Player Request - The Wire-lance skill, グラップルチャージ(Grapple Charge) is hard to use

Dev Response
Even if the grapple part didn't connect, the PC will still do the kick attack.
Yes! They've proven they can make grapple skills work even if you don't grab anything. Time to start whining about slash rave and a few other grabby skills everybody!

And let's get bind through & heavenly fall fixed too, they don't deal damage if their grapple target dies.


4. Balancing the Technic Zonde

Dev responce
After the Jan, 23 change to zonde change of determining where it strike was changed(Previously, it was on the ground, so Zonde can't hit Big Vardha correctly) it also had the unintended effect of increasing it's power greatly, we believe this unbalance the game greatly, and had sought other option of balancing besideing reducing, but was not able to reach a conclusion, I am sorry that I cannot offer another solution beside reducing the tech Zonde.
As a dev, I apologize for this mistake, and will announce a schedule and more info at a later date.
Also since I will be doing skill tree adjustment in april, I will be distributing a item that will reset all skill tree as an apology for this instance

This is pretty heavily needed. We should get a new lightning tech that deals this much damage, preferably from the ground, and for much more PP than just 13. It really is crazy overpowered. It shouldn't be long range, the best volley damage, and only cost 13 pp.

[Xaeris]

Zonde was pretty hilariously OP. It's nice to see that they were paying enough attention to notice. I wish they were willing to do more at one time though. These changes are significant, but they're slow and far in between. Instead of just nerfing Zonde, I'd like it if they balanced Zonde as well as tweaking the Ice tree, which needs some serious help. I get that changing too much at once can get away from you (which is why most online RPGs have test servers, but that's another conversation), but it's hard to get excited for them when it takes half a year to get halfway to where you want to be.

Free skill reset though, awesome.

[Enforcer MKV]

I have a question or two about the reset, though...

Is it for a single skill tree, or does it reset them all? Does it affect your original skill trees, because I seem to recall the resets sold only affect additional trees, and not your starting trees. Those are pretty significant points that I think need to be addressed sooner rather than later, unless they've already been answered and it just flew over my head however many moons ago.

[gigawuts]

I have a question or two about the reset, though...

Is it for a single skill tree, or does it reset them all? Does it affect your original skill tree, because I seem to recall the resets sold only affect additional trees, and not your starting tree. Those are pretty significant point that I think need to be addressed sooner rather than later, unless they've already been answered and it just flew over my head however many moons ago.

This has yet to be confirmed, but the wording suggests it's a single item that when activated resets every tree you have.

Would it be 1 ticket to reset the entire account? Would there be one per character? Would you get 3 tickets with 3 characters and be able to use all 3 on just one character? Most of the specifics aren't yet known.

The way single-tree resets work is you cannot reset your currently selected tree. So if you only have 1 tree in a class - even if that class is not active as a main or sub - you need a second tree in that class. You can then select this second tree and THEN reset the first tree, but this is a bad idea since spare trees are cheaper anyway.

IMO, they should be basically giving away resets, to promote trying different playstyles in the entire community. It would really raise interest, I think, and place an emphasis on playstyle and experimentation.

[Sizustar]

A second lock option would be nice so I can't accidentally reverse my +9 items.

Neat these were tedious.


Maybe, my translation wasn't that clear, 2 update
1. Able to grind with Dodo
2. 2nd lock option to show up or not show up as ingredient for element or ability.


This has yet to be confirmed, but the wording suggests it's a single item that when activated resets every tree you have.

Would it be 1 ticket to reset the entire account? Would there be one per character? Would you get 3 tickets with 3 characters and be able to use all 3 on just one character? Most of the specifics aren't yet known.

The way single-tree resets work is you cannot reset your currently selected tree. So if you only have 1 tree in a class - even if that class is not active as a main or sub - you need a second tree in that class. You can then select this second tree and THEN reset the first tree, but this is a bad idea since spare trees are cheaper anyway.

IMO, they should be basically giving away resets, to promote trying different playstyles in the entire community. It would really raise interest, I think, and place an emphasis on playstyle and experimentation.

1 Item that reset all skill tree, easier then going through every account seeing how many skill tree every user has.

[gigawuts]

Yes. That's what "resets all trees" means.

That still says nothing about if it's per-account or per-character.

[EvilMag]

So wait, they're giving out two now? One for the zonde nerf and another when the lv60 cap comes?

[Cyron Tanryoku]

I need to bust my ass and get to 55.

[Sizustar]

So wait, they're giving out two now? One for the zonde nerf and another when the lv60 cap comes?

No, this one is for the FO nerfing nothing about lv.60 update
Because they don't really want to nerf any class.
If any other major change to skill tree or nerfing,t here will be skill reset item as compensation it seems.

[Xaeris]

So wait, they're giving out two now? One for the zonde nerf and another when the lv60 cap comes?

They said a little while back that their plan going forward is to offer resets whenever they make significant changes to skills and abilities. So, if the Lv 60 cap comes with a tree expansion, which I anticipate it will, they should be giving us resets for that too.

[Sizustar]

They said a little while back that their plan going forward is to offer resets whenever they make significant changes to skills and abilities. So, if the Lv 60 cap comes with a tree expansion, which I anticipate it will, they should be giving us resets for that too.

So more Skills?
But it only gives 5 more SP, 10, if they offer another 5SP level quest...

[Syklo]

Yes! They've proven they can make grapple skills work even if you don't grab anything. Time to start whining about slash rave and a few other grabby skills everybody!

And let's get bind through & heavenly fall fixed too, they don't deal damage if their grapple target dies.

Just don't "useable-even-if-no-grapple" to holding current ;_;

"Locking" equipment makes it untradeable, even to NPC shops. This is dandy if you have a specific item you want to hold onto, but in your blindsight accidentally resell it and are now forced to buy back at an often "ridiculous" price.

I use it to keep track of specific items of value to me, and make sure I don't accidentally get rid of them when I'm not ready to do so.

I'm actually FOR this change. Unlocking an item takes hassle if you realize it's not in Dudu's grind menu. Which, btw, you can't add a locked item to a non-locked item, because in a sense that's the same as selling it.
I use lock to not only prevent them from being seen in npc shops (unless I need to do something with it), but also "tag" my items so I can sort them out better.
And if this were to happen, then this would be a bigger hassle for me: I always bring a variety of weapons for combat - all of them locked, so that they don't show up in dudu's service unless I need modifications to them, but with this change (depending on implementation), I'll need to spend more time navigating an unnecessarily larger list.
Other than that, I'd also like a custom sort or color-code/tagging feature.

How you could possibly take issue with this change is probably beyond every single other PSO2 players head.

If you ask me, a more advanced Storage Search mechanism is more important than this "lock tweak."
E.g. Search for items with "power", but not "soul."

[Poubelle]

Zonde was pretty hilariously OP. It's nice to see that they were paying enough attention to notice. I wish they were willing to do more at one time though. These changes are significant, but they're slow and far in between. Instead of just nerfing Zonde, I'd like it if they balanced Zonde as well as tweaking the Ice tree, which needs some serious help. I get that changing too much at once can get away from you (which is why most online RPGs have test servers, but that's another conversation), but it's hard to get excited for them when it takes half a year to get halfway to where you want to be.

Free skill reset though, awesome.

Yeah. with a whole host of balance issues, it's kind of disappointing to just say, "Yeah we're gonna work on Zonde" which a toddler would know is broken.

Like really? While you're at it, why not adjust some of the other stuff? :???:

many of the problems have very obvious fixes

[Sizustar]

Yeah. with a whole host of balance issues, it's kind of disappointing to just say, "Yeah we're gonna work on Zonde" which a toddler would know is broken.

Like really? While you're at it, why not adjust some of the other stuff? :???:

many of the problems have very obvious fixes

Because it's only your opinion that they are broken?
And if you want change, contact Sega, the option is there
https://ssl.pso2.jp/players/support/inquiry/?mode=opinion

They took player comment into account, and replied it, also stating what they plan to change, and that's still not good enough for you.
No reply still not good enough either.

[Railkune]

Honestly though, was Zonde that broken? I never played force or partied with one in a way where I'd be able to see it in action. Like, explain just how broken it is.

[Poubelle]

Because it's only your opinion that they are broken?
And if you want change, contact Sega, the option is there
https://ssl.pso2.jp/players/support/inquiry/?mode=opinion

They took player comment into account, and replied it, also stating what they plan to change, and that's still not good enough for you.
No reply still not good enough either.

Stop trolling please. What, you don't think Zonde and half the crap in this game isn't unbalanced? You're not living in reality.

and I already do send tickets to SEGA, so no need to act like a douchebag like you always do in reply to my posts.

So sick of the crap on this board. NOTHING can be discussed, NOTHING CAN BE SAID except

LOL UR CHARACTER IS SO KAWAIIIII desuuuuuuu

That's literally the ONLY acceptable post on PSO-W apparently. Can't WAIT for official English boards.

[Keyblade59]

Ok now put some of that power being taken anyway from Zone in the Barta Family

[Syklo]

Stop trolling please. What, you don't think Zonde and half the crap in this game isn't unbalanced? You're not living in reality.

and I already do send tickets to SEGA, so no need to act like a douchebag like you always do in reply to my posts.

So sick of the crap on this board. NOTHING can be discussed, NOTHING CAN BE SAID except

LOL UR CHARACTER IS SO KAWAIIIII desuuuuuuu

That's literally the ONLY acceptable post on PSO-W apparently. Can't WAIT for official English boards.
I don't even get why people say that in that way....
It's just weird.

[Zyrusticae]

Stop trolling please. What, you don't think Zonde and half the crap in this game isn't unbalanced? You're not living in reality.

and I already do send tickets to SEGA, so no need to act like a douchebag like you always do in reply to my posts.

So sick of the crap on this board. NOTHING can be discussed, NOTHING CAN BE SAID except

LOL UR CHARACTER IS SO KAWAIIIII desuuuuuuu

That's literally the ONLY acceptable post on PSO-W apparently. Can't WAIT for official English boards.
No, see, the problem is EVEERYTHING has been discussed already. A MILLION TIMES. There's not a fucking thing you can say that hasn't already been said.

It's especially irritating when you act like anything, ANYTHING AT ALL that you say is in any way revelatory or informative when we all know this shit already. We know there's balance issues already, we know the drop rate is kind of crap, we know the game needs more difficulty, we know the rares aren't all they could be, we damn well know the game doesn't achieve the potential it could achieve. So why does it needed to be repeated everywhere, ad nauseum, in every single possible thread it is even possible to repeat it in?

Even bumped.org is full of this shit. Give me a fucking break!

[gigawuts]

Honestly though, was Zonde that broken? I never played force or partied with one in a way where I'd be able to see it in action. Like, explain just how broken it is.

It was pretty crazy yeah, in AQ's you can reliably and consistently 1-shot small things and 2-shot large things by nailing the boost weak point. It's a large reason why force is so crazy good in AQ's. It does this at a football field's distance instantly, hitting things from the top down (meaning you don't even need to target the boost point on many enemies, it'll collide with it because boost weak points tend to be on enemy heads).

The other reason is force is THE aoe class, so yeah. Killing lots of things as they spawn is force's specialty, but having zonde really pushed it over the edge of "how is this in the game jesus christ."

I say this having been a fan of lightning before the boost - it became absurd and seriously needs a nerf.

That said, the only thing that actually made it imbalanced was its cost. Dealing that much damage wasn't the problem - dealing that much damage nonstop was the problem. With bolt PP save 10 it costs 13 PP to cast, with 9-10 recovering while you charge the tech. That is utterly absurd and needs to go. Either great damage with 3 PP net cost, or best burst damage with probably 6-10 PP net cost.

Ideally lightning would get back something of similar damage output that costs more to cast.

Then ice needs some loving, but I really hope they don't try to fix both at once by giving it something comparable to zonde's current damage. Mixed with the nature of the other ice techs that would just be cruel.

[Sizustar]

Honestly though, was Zonde that broken? I never played force or partied with one in a way where I'd be able to see it in action. Like, explain just how broken it is.

It's damage was higher then any other tech, even if you're fighting enemy not weak to lightning, so in Sky island or forest for example, where enemy are weak to fire and Dark, most people use zonde instead, since it hits for 4~5k, while the element they are weak to only hits for 2~3k. add to that it's low PP cost, making it able to cast more.
While it was supposed to be low damage, but able to hit multiple and cast multiple time.

[Railkune]

Christ, that is crazy. So being able to basically spam it over and over, while mobbing like a boss... Yeah, I can see why that was abused. Well, good thing they're fixing it over. Though, I have been hearing the ice tech are pretty... well, I won't say useless but, not up to what they should/could be. Wonder if they plan to do something about that too.

[Zyrusticae]

It should be noted just how fucking hilarious it is to hit for 17.5k damage with Grants with Light Mastery I&II + Element Weak Hit while Zonde hits for 26k with Mastery I & II and EWH while being cheaper to cast, faster casting, AoE, and instant damage.

That shit's whack, so yeah, it's no surprise at all that the JP players pointed out this disparity in large numbers.

[Sizustar]

Christ, that is crazy. So being able to basically spam it over and over, while mobbing like a boss... Yeah, I can see why that was abused. Well, good thing they're fixing it over. Though, I have been hearing the ice tech are pretty... well, I won't say useless but, not up to what they should/could be. Wonder if they plan to do something about that too.

Well, Ice's main problem is...there really isn't any enemy weak to it, except volcano, and the spell itself, isn't that useful.
Wind although no enemy weakness, is very versatile, due to it's wide variety of tech with different movement and attack pattern.
Dark makes up for it's slow speed in damage, but currently Zonde is outdamaging it.

[gigawuts]

Yeah, ice needs some serious looking at.

If sabarta timestopped enemies AND tracked like grants does I'd be a big fan of it, because then it would be useful on bosses. Ice REALLY badly needs that. Rabarta is also really mediocre and entirely redundant due to Gibarta's boost. Gibarta is pretty great as it is, no need for changes there.

Barta itself...seems redundant? In PSO1 barta was great because you were always backing up, and that meant enemies were lining up. Barta was a cost effective multi-target tech, very nice even in circumstances where enemies resisted ice because for that TP you could deal more total damage than a single-target tech might regardless of resistances.

For barta to be useful again I feel like it needs to either cost like 16 PP, or have something extra. Maybe an amazing freeze rate, I don't know.

Also, ice needs two new skills. 1. Tougher ice - Freeze resists breaking, especially from ice damage. 2. Shatter Advanced - any hit that shatters ice gets bonus damage. Yes, that would apply to freeze ignition, but more importantly it applies to everyone around you.

[Railkune]

Still, it kinda makes me wish I could have tested its full power for myself. I wonder if anyone has a video showing it in use. Think I'll look into that.

Though, I do hope the ice techs get some love at some point.

Edit: @Giga - I like that Shatter Advance. I always did wish there was 'something' along those lines in the game for frozen enemies. That can prove to be really brutal easily.

[Enforcer MKV]

Yeah, ice needs some serious looking at.

If sabarta timestopped enemies AND tracked like grants does I'd be a big fan of it, because then it would be useful on bosses. Ice REALLY badly needs that. Rabarta is also really mediocre and entirely redundant due to Gibarta's boost. Gibarta is pretty great as it is, no need for changes there.

Barta itself...seems redundant? In PSO1 barta was great because you were always backing up, and that meant enemies were lining up. Barta was a cost effective multi-target tech, very nice even in circumstances where enemies resisted ice because for that TP you could deal more total damage than a single-target tech might regardless of resistances.

For barta to be useful again I feel like it needs to either cost like 16 PP, or have something extra. Maybe an amazing freeze rate, I don't know.

Also, ice needs two new skills. 1. Tougher ice - Freeze resists breaking, especially from ice damage. 2. Shatter Advanced - any hit that shatters ice gets bonus damage. Yes, that would apply to freeze ignition, but more importantly it applies to everyone around you.

...You REALLY need to get hired by Sega. :lol:

[Sizustar]

Still, it kinda makes me wish I could have tested its full power for myself. I wonder if anyone has a video showing it in use. Think I'll look into that.

Though, I do hope the ice techs get some love at some point.

These are future change planned for april.
We should hopefully get a date of change in the next maintance.
Otherwise, currently
1871 T-Atk, My zonde damage is max 41421
Normal damage on Darker enemy in Ruin is 5~6k consistantly, with the occassionally 8k~11k damage if I manage to hit a weak spot or spore.
DF Eldar's hand, with normal zonde with no weak bullet, I hit for 10~12k on the back of the hand, and 30~40k with weak bullet. Zondeel Normal hit for 6k+
With any other FO with simliar T-Atk, we can clear the DF Eldar hand in less then 15second.
So yes, it is overpowered~

[Railkune]

Neptune's Beard... What kind of unholy damage is that!? Geez, lol. That is really insane stuff. Just dropping 30-40k like that. I mean sure, I'm fairly new to the game and all, but that's still darn amazing.

[Syklo]

Yeah, ice needs some serious looking at.

If sabarta timestopped enemies AND tracked like grants does I'd be a big fan of it, because then it would be useful on bosses. Ice REALLY badly needs that. Rabarta is also really mediocre and entirely redundant due to Gibarta's boost. Gibarta is pretty great as it is, no need for changes there.

Barta itself...seems redundant? In PSO1 barta was great because you were always backing up, and that meant enemies were lining up. Barta was a cost effective multi-target tech, very nice even in circumstances where enemies resisted ice because for that TP you could deal more total damage than a single-target tech might regardless of resistances.

For barta to be useful again I feel like it needs to either cost like 16 PP, or have something extra. Maybe an amazing freeze rate, I don't know.

Also, ice needs two new skills. 1. Tougher ice - Freeze resists breaking, especially from ice damage. 2. Shatter Advanced - any hit that shatters ice gets bonus damage. Yes, that would apply to freeze ignition, but more importantly it applies to everyone around you.
What would be really interesting (IMO) is for rabarta to have ranged-deflection properties, i.e. a defense-offense tech.
I mean, the barta family seems to be very defensive.

Barta itself though.....maybe make it split whenever it hits an entity (either for the main one or for each shatter - 4split,then2split for secondary)? Would be pretty cool when aimed in the air (FIREICE WORKS). No other tech does that.

Oh and lower the dam charge time of Sabarta.

Those 2 skills sound great! maybe combine them into one?
I dunno....."ice tomb" sounds like a nice name to me

[Poubelle]

Neptune's Beard... What kind of unholy damage is that!? Geez, lol. That is really insane stuff. Just dropping 30-40k like that. I mean sure, I'm fairly new to the game and all, but that's still darn amazing.

yeah. Force is pretty ridiculous right now.

The high efficiency JP parties are usually 3-Force or 4-Force parties. surprise surprise. High efficiency parties NEVER bring a melee.

[Railkune]

Lol. I was sitting here thinking Over End was just the bee's knees. Guess you learn something new every day.

[gigawuts]

What would be really interesting (IMO) is for rabarta to have ranged-deflection properties, i.e. a defense-offense tech.
I mean, the barta family seems to be very defensive.

Barta itself though.....maybe make it split whenever it hits an entity (either for the main one or for each shatter - 4split,then2split for secondary)? Would be pretty cool when aimed in the air (FIREICE WORKS). No other tech does that.

Oh and lower the dam charge time of Sabarta.

Those 2 skills sound great! maybe combine them into one?
I dunno....."ice tomb" sounds like a nice name to me

A lot of games take two fundamentally weak (but still good and important!) bonuses and combine them into one skill, despite being very different. Borderlands does that in some nice ways. I mean, 10 SP for the two ideas I mentioned, individually, is WAY too much. But both in one would be great! Same with a lot of hunter skills.

This whole 1 SP or 10 SP thing is really bad for tree balance. Skills that are good are amazing, skills that are bad are horrible.

Also, for barta I just thought of having it be immune to shield damage negation. That is, if it connects with a wonda shield it can still hurt the wonda if it goes on to connect with a hitbox it can damage.

[Sizustar]

Neptune's Beard... What kind of unholy damage is that!? Geez, lol. That is really insane stuff. Just dropping 30-40k like that. I mean sure, I'm fairly new to the game and all, but that's still darn amazing.

And I'm only playing as a FO/TE.
If I switch to FO/FI and use stance correctly, I can probabely gain 1~3k more damage on normal charged lightning zonde tech..

[UnLucky]

That said, the only thing that actually made it imbalanced was its cost. Dealing that much damage wasn't the problem - dealing that much damage nonstop was the problem. With bolt PP save 10 it costs 13 PP to cast, with 9-10 recovering while you charge the tech. That is utterly absurd and needs to go. Either great damage with 3 PP net cost, or best burst damage with probably 6-10 PP net cost.

I seriously don't see how you're getting anything more than 7 PP per charge unless you're holding it for two seconds. I replied to an earlier post of yours with screenshots of me releasing Zonde right as it finished charging. 8 PP cost as Fo/Fi, 6 PP cost as Fo/Te.

No way you're getting 3 PP without popping a cd somewhere or lowering DPS.

[Syklo]

Also, for barta I just thought of having it be immune to shield damage negation. That is, if it connects with a wonda shield it can still hurt the wonda if it goes on to connect with a hitbox it can damage.

This just made me think barta techs in general should have bonus damage on breakable parts or at least break them faster (Since they're sharp, rigid....break things.....yeah).

[gigawuts]

I seriously don't see how you're getting anything more than 7 PP per charge unless you're holding it for two seconds. I replied to an earlier post of yours with screenshots of me releasing Zonde right as it finished charging. 8 PP cost as Fo/Fi, 6 PP cost as Fo/Te.

No way you're getting 3 PP without popping a cd somewhere or lowering DPS.

You on ship 2?

[Xaeris]

When I say the Ice tree needs tweaking, I'm thinking more along the lines of Photon Flare. The other two trees have utility skills that directly affect the way a player casts. Fire has Flame Tech S Charge, enabling you to run through PP that much faster and spend less time encumbered by a casting animation. Lightning has Bolt Tech PP Save which makes lightning techs super cheap when coupled PP Charge Revival and turns you into the Energizer bunny of death.

Ice on the other hand...doesn't have anything like that. Fill out the tree, and you get a 30 second buff you can use every other minute at the cost of a big chunk of your PP and an active skill you'll get nearly 0 use out of. The casting itself is pretty much exactly the same, ice specced or not, aside from the size of the numbers. If it were up to me, I would take Photon Flare and make it a stance. While active, ice techs consume x more PP per cast to inflict y% more damage and give your ice techs a Freeze level of 5 (so that frozen status will survive a couple extra hits and make Freeze Ignition easier to use), where x and y increase with the SP investment. Turn it on, and you get crazy ass burst damage; but you have to make it count. With that, you get a fundamentally different kind of casting like the Fire and Lightning trees grant.

But the Shatter Advance stuff is good too. Though really, they should be looking at Techer before they invest this sort of effort into the Force tree.

[UnLucky]

You on ship 2?

Yeah, but it's not like I can see your PP bar on my screen, can I?

[gigawuts]

Yeah, but it's not like I can see your PP bar on my screen, can I?

No, but you can see how long I'm charging.

[UnLucky]

Well I think a screenshot of your character casting Zonde from full PP would suffice, as long as the spark that signifies a full charge is visible.

[UnLucky]

Or just tell me you have a Seitenheise or Psycho Wand with its potential unlocked, but that's obviously not standard fare.

[Gama]

how about making resta heal range not suck? T_T

[gigawuts]

Hm, I can see where you must be casting from. I always casted from the lightning animation, you seem to be doing the exact moment the flash appears. I never even bothered trying it sooner.

edit: Also, I never saw those screens you mentioned, so yeah.

[UnLucky]

When I say the Ice tree needs tweaking, I'm thinking more along the lines of Photon Flare. The other two trees have utility skills that directly affect the way a player casts. Ice on the other hand...doesn't have anything like that.

The Wind tree has even less than Ice does, but Zan doesn't need it. PP Restorate and PP Convert are great, but Light and Dark get nothing cool like Flame/Bolt. And don't say Poison Ignition.

[Syklo]

When I say the Ice tree needs tweaking, I'm thinking more along the lines of Photon Flare. The other two trees have utility skills that directly affect the way a player casts. Fire has Flame Tech S Charge, enabling you to run through PP that much faster and spend less time encumbered by a casting animation. Lightning has Bolt Tech PP Save which makes lightning techs super cheap when coupled PP Charge Revival and turns you into the Energizer bunny of death.

Ice on the other hand...doesn't have anything like that. Fill out the tree, and you get a 30 second buff you can use every other minute at the cost of a big chunk of your PP and an active skill you'll get nearly 0 use out of. The casting itself is pretty much exactly the same, ice specced or not, aside from the size of the numbers. If it were up to me, I would take Photon Flare and make it a stance. While active, ice techs consume x more PP per cast to inflict y% more damage and give your ice techs a Freeze level of 5 (so that frozen status will survive a couple extra hits and make Freeze Ignition easier to use), where x and y increase with the SP investment. Turn it on, and you get crazy ass burst damage; but you have to make it count. With that, you get a fundamentally different kind of casting like the Fire and Lightning trees grant.

But the Shatter Advance stuff is good too. Though really, they should be looking at Techer before they invest this sort of effort into the Force tree.
Hm, this is also reasonable but TE needs that sort of treatment for all 3 of its branches.
Wind could have a size increase (Sazan would be huge)
Light could have.....more hits?
Dark could have......Megiddon? (Dark techs = 0PP for X seconds)
I honestly don't know.

But while typing this, I thought of something that could be nice for TE's that might not have been mentioned before:
Combo (charged?) techs.
E.g. Megid 1 > Megid 2 (Multiple explosions) > Megid 3 (Much larger megid).
Gizan 1 > Zan 2 (Expanding outwards in a circular motion)
Gifoie 1 > Rabarta 2 (I Have no idea)
If this has been mentioned then ignore this.

[Laxedrane]

Isn't another photon flare buff sitting in the dats? Will most likely coming when the level cap increases?

[Zyrusticae]

The Wind tree has even less than Ice does, but Zan doesn't need it. PP Restorate and PP Convert are great, but Light and Dark get nothing cool like Flame/Bolt. And don't say Poison Ignition.
Argh, poison ignition... now you've made me sad. :(

(For those who don't know: A single poison ignition can hit for around 10k on a non-weak-bulleted weak point, but has a long casting animation, melee range, and a 30s cooldown when maxed out. Also a depressingly large number of mobs are completely immune to poison.)

Yeah, techer really doesn't get anything stand-out like the force tree does. That, in addition to wands being weaker and having a casting delay, means that they just can't hold their own next to the power of forces.

[gigawuts]

Hm, this is also reasonable but TE needs that sort of treatment for all 3 of its branches.
Wind could have a size increase (Sazan would be huge)
Light could have.....more hits?
Dark could have......Megiddon? (Dark techs = 0PP for X seconds)
I honestly don't know.

But while typing this, I thought of something that could be nice for TE's that might not have been mentioned before:
Combo (charged?) techs.
E.g. Megid 1 > Megid 2 (Multiple explosions) > Megid 3 (Much larger megid).
Gizan 1 > Zan 2 (Expanding outwards in a circular motion)
Gifoie 1 > Rabarta 2 (I Have no idea)
If this has been mentioned then ignore this.

There are three main balancing points with this sort of thing: Burst damage, sustained damage, and ranged damage.

I always felt ice needed more range, and tying that to photon flare was something I thought might be nice. Ice isn't about damage, ice is about flinching enemies. It does it well. Another thought was increasing its number of pulses, including on deband - meaning deband would have extra duration as well. It clicked nicely in my mind.

But I agree, techer needs attention sooner than ice does.

[Railkune]

how about making resta heal range not suck? T_T

Something I heard about this is that it's rather... difficult to find much use in unless you're in a more closed in area because you walk slow while charging, and by the time you get to your team, they've popped a Mate. I'd quote the post, but don't recall where it was. Maybe remove the charge, or like you said, they'll be needing to expand the field of healing quite a bit.

[UnLucky]

Removing the charge would make it way too crazy to heal yourself with it.

Increasing the range at least makes the only times when you can heal someone a bit easier. As it is now, you have to preempt healing, but the knockback can be enough to send the player out of range. Or they're being revived nearby and can't use items in time for your Resta to tick.

[Alisha]

how would that be any different than casting uncharged shifta on demand? playing techer i've learned that you can buffer shifta.

[Alisha]

what if they simply dumped talis and gave techer access to rods?

[gigawuts]

that would be awful, please no

just give wands unique support abilities - tie it to support tech range (in ADDITION to territory burst - both could work in tandem), give it a bonus to range of gi level techs, I don't know

Until the wand is anything but a worse rod with better melee, it will stay inferior. It needs to be different. Damage tweaks aren't different.

[UnLucky]

how would that be any different than casting uncharged shifta on demand? playing techer i've learned that you can buffer shifta.

I hope you don't mean the full value of a charged Resta instantly would be no different.

You really can't see how instantly healing 300+ HP would be a lot better than an extra 15s of a minor buff?

[Sizustar]

that would be awful, please no

just give wands unique support abilities - tie it to support tech range (in ADDITION to territory burst - both could work in tandem), give it a bonus to range of gi level techs, I don't know

Until the wand is anything but a worse rod with better melee, it will stay inferior. It needs to be different. Damage tweaks aren't different.

PAs for Techer?

[gigawuts]

I wish, but I doubt it'll happen.

[Coatl]

Why PAs for techer? A step attack JAing into safoie wouldn't be enough?

[Rien]

Gief Techer Step Attack.

That (somehow) works.

[Syklo]

A different evasive manuever.
Flash escape.

Yes I really like the idea of teleportation even though it's likely to never happen.

[Alisha]

for pa's to work for techer they would likely need to draw on a different resource. like say the wand gear guage.

[Alisha]

Why PAs for techer? A step attack JAing into safoie wouldn't be enough?

what is this...i dont even...
did you not see the wand thread?

[MetalDude]

If meleeing is going be so special and unique for them compared to FOs, it seems stupid not to give Wands PAs. Wand Gear, while nice, is extremely boring. If you're not in melee range, you are playing a gimped FO through and through. Melee needs to be more interesting and efficient if TE wants to matter as more than just a sub for PP skills.

[gigawuts]

I was also thinking Zero Tech Range Advance might be good for promoting close range playstyles, albeit with up to gigrants range.

[Syklo]

I was also thinking Zero Tech Range Advance might be good for promoting close range playstyles, albeit with up to gigrants range.
Well that could promote nazan, gizan and ramegid too.
Among others...

[Coatl]

what is this...i dont even...
did you not see the wand thread?

I just don't see a real need for PAs just for wands. There is no reason wand gear can't be fixed to accommodate close-range tech use. >_>

[gigawuts]

I just don't see a real need for PAs just for wands. There is no reason wand gear can't be fixed to accommodate close-range tech use. >_>

The problem is the same as hunter. The difficulty is in actually approaching and maintaining a distance from the target. Somebody just recently tried to demonstrate how a techer could wreck stuff and wound up taking way way way too long fighting quartz simply because he couldn't catch up to it enough.

[Coatl]

Yes, which is why Techers need a step attack of some sort. It won't solve the issue all hunters have at closing the gap on enemies, but it will at least put techer in the same footing.

[UnLucky]

Ok here's whatcha do:

Territory Burst Advance: +10% range, +5s buff duration per tick, -10s TB cooldown. Per point spent in TBA.

Wand Gear: 10-50% Strike Damage depending on gauge level. Casting an uncharged tech with a full gauge empties it and performs a unique attack per element (of the triggering tech) which mixes Strike and Tech hits together. If you want it as a separate skill, put it in the Wind tree.

PP Revival: Recovers PP while using PAs and Technics (not while charging).

[Alisha]

Well that could promote nazan, gizan and ramegid too.
Among others...
zero range wind advance then? also gizan sucks. at point blank theres 2 money techs for wind.

[Aine]

The problem with wands is that the gear is backwards.

Gear building: Hit stuff with charged techs
Gear effect: Melee attack powers up

It should be;

Gear building: Hit stuff with melee attacks
Gear effect: Techs power up

If wand techs are weaker than rod techs at zero gear, but stronger than rod techs at full gear, you have an incentive to actually close in and melee. Give wands step and step attack and suddenly you have a different playstyle to Forces.

[Coatl]

The problem with wands is that the gear is backwards.

Gear building: Hit stuff with charged techs
Gear effect: Melee attack powers up

It should be;

Gear building: Hit stuff with melee attacks
Gear effect: Techs power up

If wand techs are weaker than rod techs at zero gear, but stronger than rod techs at full gear, you have an incentive to actually close in and melee. Give wands step and step attack and suddenly you have a different playstyle to Forces.

Woah, get this guy in the Sonic Team.

[Alisha]

The problem with wands is that the gear is backwards.

Gear building: Hit stuff with charged techs
Gear effect: Melee attack powers up

It should be;

Gear building: Hit stuff with melee attacks
Gear effect: Techs power up

If wand techs are weaker than rod techs at zero gear, but stronger than rod techs at full gear, you have an incentive to actually close in and melee. Give wands step and step attack and suddenly you have a different playstyle to Forces.

i dont like this either. currently nuking is a means to an end. i dont wand nuking to become the end. if you want that then apply it to a new gear...talis gear...

[gigawuts]

Nuking as an end is called force.

[Zyrusticae]

Eh, techers are clearly meant to be a nuking class seeing as how they specialize in the dark/light/wind side of techniques.

I really don't know what to do with 'em, really. Perhaps they should just buff wands to the same level as rods, even though that means differentiating wands from rods becomes an entirely superficial comparison. Part of me feels that the problem is really created by the way mobs die so quickly, however. Wand gear and higher S-atk are both rendered moot when everything dies before melee combat is even warranted. Hunters and fighters suffer from similar issues, after all.

They just seem to want to do too many things with techers to the point where they don't do anything well enough. Support techs with shifta/deband advance, territory burst, and resta advance; attack techs with light/wind/dark masteries; melee damage with wand gear. That's just too much splitting in focus to really give them something to excel at.

If they really want techers to do support, they should increase the duration and AoE of shifta/deband and maybe re-introduce jellen and zalure. Not that you'd ever use jellen and zalure outside of boss fights seeing as how everything dies too quickly anyways. Ah, but then we run into the problem where anything on the skill tree simply makes them a better subclass for forces... so something inherent to the class needs to be improved instead, and we're left back at the issue of wands.

I am under no illusion that they will ever do a complete revamp of any class. I'd love it if they did, but this is SEGA we're talking about here. The most they'll do is switch up some numbers so the class ends up more palatable next to the nuking power of forces.

[TaigaUC]

Gear building: Hit stuff with charged techs
Gear effect: Melee attack powers up


That's how wand gear works? Haven't tried it yet, but didn't know it was like that. Yuck.

I'm under the impression that the developers of PSO2 don't really think about unique purposes for each ability. They don't think of innovative ways for abilities to be used with other players or design the enemies around that.

The combat design is basically:
- Learn enemy pattern
- Dodge enemies when they attack
- Attack enemy weak point
- Improve stats through equipment and levelling
- Use optimal Photon Arts/Techs/Skills (most of which are pointless or only vary the gameplay slightly)

...and that's it. Too much focus on offense, with ranged at a distinct advantage. As far as I can think of, aside from that Hunter Just Guard skill, there aren't any counter-attack systems or abilities. Defense is completely pointless if you don't get hit. When they do add new abilities, it's either stuff that fills gaps and should have been there to begin with, or fluff that serves as little more than pointless variation.

I don't think they can improve on the gameplay without a major overhaul, and I doubt that'll happen.

[Aine]

If wands had PAs, Techers could do stuff like this, which would be pretty fun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGk7OuNKsAA"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGk7OuNKsAA

[Omega-z]

I agree with Zyrusticae. Just recapping that Techer is a split class. Having the Masteries, PP Restore/Convert, EWH (which does little for melee) helping Force's more then the Techer class itself. Then having Support with S/D Adv., Cut, Hit, TB, Resta Adv. which is to weak to be of any real benefit to help Techer. Then you have a wonky set up with it's Wand's and a Melee split with WG and PI (which is better with WG). At least they could of kept them together instead of all over the place.

Aine - I agree that a PA system would be the best instead of a Tech one for wand's, combine that with Mirage Step and Mirage Attack (think Nightcrawler from X-men). The PA's can be a Melee attack that can when hit the shift button can do a Tech type attack's with the melee (which would slowly drain your PP bar when it's on), and Like you said that Melee attack's boosting WG (this would have to be JA to fill the bar). Which when it's filled get's stronger in both in it's Melee (Normal/shift & WG) and it's Tech's Offensive/Defensive/Support's.

[gigawuts]

Techer is...

Split melee/techs, doing neither well
Split damage/self-support, doing neither well
Split offensive support/defensive support, doing neither of it well

It's like a how-not-to on game design.

[Zipzo]

Techer is...

Split melee/techs, doing neither well
Split damage/self-support, doing neither well
Split offensive support/defensive support, doing neither of it well

It's like a how-not-to on game design.

There was a time when jack of all trades classes were accepted for what they were. If its not your thing, don't play it.

I don't see how it's a breach in game design to have such a class, because for the most part Techer falls comfortably in to this description. It's not *supposed* to be the best at any one thing.

[gigawuts]

You missed the "doing neither of it well" part

Split design necessitates superior strength in each facet of its intended use, simply because it cannot specialize to the same effect as a specialist class. If you pool into one stat you are still directly inferior in performance, personal preference or not. If you split your stat investments you are, yep, still inferior in performance.

It's a common, glaring flaw, frequently overlooked by devs. Split design precludes many already-limited options, and techer is nothing but split this, split that, and split that. Force's SP sinks are masteries, tatk up, etc. All offensive. Techer's SP sinks are all fucking over the place. Some are masteries, some are defense, some are support. You can make a force tree with PP revival and whatever else you want and can have it pretty good at offense no matter what you do, barring going into ice. You make a techer tree? You pretty much just get 5% across the board with inferior base stats and inferior weapon stats.

So yeah. Split design is inherently difficult to balance. Too good and it's, well, too good. Not good enough and, well, techer.

Techer's biggest initial fix could be, for example, making its skills way better with wand held, as in only when maining the class. That wouldn't help with talis, and yes it's 100% a bandaid fix, but one thing at a time here.

[Zipzo]

You missed the "doing neither of it well" part

Split design necessitates superior strength in each facet of its intended use, simply because it cannot specialize to the same effect as a specialist class. If you pool into one stat you are still directly inferior in performance, personal preference or not. If you split your stat investments you are, yep, still inferior in performance.

It's a common, glaring flaw, frequently overlooked by devs. Split design precludes many already-limited options, and techer is nothing but split this, split that, and split that. Force's SP sinks are masteries, tatk up, etc. All offensive. Techer's SP sinks are all fucking over the place. Some are masteries, some are defense, some are support. You can make a force tree with PP revival and whatever else you want and can have it pretty good at offense no matter what you do, barring going into ice. You make a techer tree? You pretty much just get 5% across the board with inferior base stats and inferior weapon stats.

So yeah. Split design is inherently difficult to balance. Too good and it's, well, too good. Not good enough and, well, techer.

Techer's biggest initial fix could be, for example, making its skills way better with wand held, as in only when maining the class. That wouldn't help with talis, and yes it's 100% a bandaid fix, but one thing at a time here.

Except you're still dancing around the fact that Techer is not meant to be superior at anything, instead repeatedly saying it's inferior as if we don't know that or it's not intended.

What's your ultimate definition of insufficiency in PSO2? I can clear any of the available content as a Techer just as I could any class you consider to be "up to par" or "superior" to the Techer.

Techer has a few utilities that the Force tree does not, and there are undoubtedly a handful of situations that the Techer performs a certain function better than a Force because of these functions, but you wouldn't know the difference because you *probably* sub TE as a FO anyway...which if the Techer tree is so inferior to other things...why not roll your sub class as something else? You don't because you want what's in the TE tree. Just because you prefer the benefits of FO as the main doesn't mean TE is an inferior class.

[BIG OLAF]

Why are you pretending to not know the difference between "underpowered" and "balanced/jack-of-all-trades"?

[~Aya~]

You missed the "doing neither of it well" part

Split design necessitates superior strength in each facet of its intended use, simply because it cannot specialize to the same effect as a specialist class. If you pool into one stat you are still directly inferior in performance, personal preference or not. If you split your stat investments you are, yep, still inferior in performance.

It's a common, glaring flaw, frequently overlooked by devs. Split design precludes many already-limited options, and techer is nothing but split this, split that, and split that. Force's SP sinks are masteries, tatk up, etc. All offensive. Techer's SP sinks are all fucking over the place. Some are masteries, some are defense, some are support. You can make a force tree with PP revival and whatever else you want and can have it pretty good at offense no matter what you do, barring going into ice. You make a techer tree? You pretty much just get 5% across the board with inferior base stats and inferior weapon stats.

So yeah. Split design is inherently difficult to balance. Too good and it's, well, too good. Not good enough and, well, techer.



Techer's biggest initial fix could be, for example, making its skills way better with wand held, as in only when maining the class. That wouldn't help with talis, and yes it's 100% a bandaid fix, but one thing at a time here.


The forum god has spoken.
(I agree with this post)

[Alisha]

Eh, techers are clearly meant to be a nuking class seeing as how they specialize in the dark/light/wind side of techniques.

I really don't know what to do with 'em, really. Perhaps they should just buff wands to the same level as rods, even though that means differentiating wands from rods becomes an entirely superficial comparison. Part of me feels that the problem is really created by the way mobs die so quickly, however. Wand gear and higher S-atk are both rendered moot when everything dies before melee combat is even warranted. Hunters and fighters suffer from similar issues, after all.

They just seem to want to do too many things with techers to the point where they don't do anything well enough. Support techs with shifta/deband advance, territory burst, and resta advance; attack techs with light/wind/dark masteries; melee damage with wand gear. That's just too much splitting in focus to really give them something to excel at.

If they really want techers to do support, they should increase the duration and AoE of shifta/deband and maybe re-introduce jellen and zalure. Not that you'd ever use jellen and zalure outside of boss fights seeing as how everything dies too quickly anyways. Ah, but then we run into the problem where anything on the skill tree simply makes them a better subclass for forces... so something inherent to the class needs to be improved instead, and we're left back at the issue of wands.

I am under no illusion that they will ever do a complete revamp of any class. I'd love it if they did, but this is SEGA we're talking about here. The most they'll do is switch up some numbers so the class ends up more palatable next to the nuking power of forces.

riiiiiiiiiiiiiight and thats why wands have more s-atk than t-atk?

[gigawuts]

Except you're still dancing around the fact that Techer is not meant to be superior at anything, instead repeatedly saying it's inferior as if we don't know that or it's not intended.

What's your ultimate definition of insufficiency in PSO2? I can clear any of the available content as a Techer just as I could any class you consider to be "up to par" or "superior" to the Techer.

Techer has a few utilities that the Force tree does not, and there are undoubtedly a handful of situations that the Techer performs a certain function better than a Force because of these functions, but you wouldn't know the difference because you *probably* sub TE as a FO anyway...which if the Techer tree is so inferior to other things...why not roll your sub class as something else? You don't because you want what's in the TE tree. Just because you prefer the benefits of FO as the main doesn't mean TE is an inferior class.

It's meant to be superior at bludgeoning shit and casting techs at the same time, or superior at support, or superior at aiding a main class with PP sufficiency. It does not do any of these things well due to the nuances of the game mechanics.

I don't really understand why you want to make an argument out of this. Why are you trying to say that something can only be superior or inferior, and not equal in a different ability? Why are you trying to push that techer is fine and if I don't like it I must hate the intended design? Been a while since you got to argue? Surely you can find someone else. Try Zyru. He still argues with anything that can put pressure on a keyboard.

[gravityvx]

It is always hard to balance a jack of all trades class because of how the players themselves end up playing them as opposed to what the devs thinking of how they would work, simple changes can make them ridiculously overpowered due to all the utility they always have or underpowered. When they are simply not supposed to excel in any field but do them all very effectively while not ever doing subpar in any role.

Perfect examples of hard to balance classes that were jack of all trade would be Red Mage from FFXI or Engineer from Guild Wars 2. You have one, the red mage who wasnt very strong at all but could out sustain anyone, and had moderate enough damage to solo even the most ridiculous things no one else could like the gods in sky. Buff after buff, nerf after nerf, they eventually gave up on balancing it and just left it overpowered.

Then you have Engineer, this is by far the most confused class I have ever seen, they have literally everything from all the classes aside from stability buff yet they are much much weaker than all the classes in the game(by a landslide I might add). The devs have no idea what do with it, or how to buff it without it becoming overpowered. Even though it's the weakest class in the game, the devs have yet to adjust it because they don't know what to do to get it up to par with the rest without it becoming too powerful because of all the things it can do.

The case is the same for techer, any idea people have thought I'm more than sure the devs have thought of it too. Once they figure out what the hell they want techer to be they will roll something out, but like all the jack of all trade roles they end up being confused as to what they want from them. I do not think any class in this game was built to just be a subclass role only.

[Zipzo]

Why are you pretending to not know the difference between "underpowered" and "balanced/jack-of-all-trades"?

Because it is simply an opinion that you (and giga) believe Techers are "underpowered" or can't do their job well.

I don't believe they are underpowered, and I believe they can do very well.

Gigs you assert that they are inferior at all the things they were meant to be good at, but you're all over the place...we've already clarified that they aren't meant to be superior at anything. They are meant to be superior at having options and extra utility...and they do.

Since we have subclasses, it's pointless to compare one class to another. You should be comparing class x/y to class x/z or any variation of that. Simply saying Techer is inferior to anything else is stupidly wrong and moot.

[gigawuts]

The need to compare a class in combination with another class is obvious and implied.

Te/everything is strictly worse than Fo/everything. In an attempt to do multiple things, it does none of them to any degree of success approaching Fo/anything or Hu/anything or Fi/anything. Te/Fo is strictly inferior to Fo/Te in all ways but melee damage, and without any of the specialist melee class' abilities designed around closing distances etc. it falls short there too. Wand aside, Fo/Te has every single ability Te/Fo does with better tech stats. That means Techer as a main is intended to focus around its melee component - and again, falls short, no abilities that balance melee can be utilized on wands, etc.

But you know all of this, and it's also obvious and implied. You post in the techer thread a lot these days, so there's no way you haven't seen it before. So...why are you playing dumb again? Like I said, if you want to argue just for the sake of it, get a hold of Zyru.

[UnLucky]

I really wanted Techer to be good. As a Force, I use a lot of close range AoE techs. I usually play a support role in online games.

But Techer is not good at close range, and is not good at long range, and is not good at support, and is not good at offense, and is not good at defense.

Ok? It's not DECENT at any of them. It is BAD in ALL ways. You're not sacrificing "a bit" of one thing to get "close" to a specialist class in two areas. The sum of all of it's subpar parts does not surpass any class in any area.

Techer's melee is no better than a Hunter with zero skill points invested in its tree. And has no PAs. That's not "good but not great" melee damage. It's shit. If you focused entirely on melee as a Techer, you just become the weakest melee class in the game by a long shot. If you focus entirely on techs, you fall short of Force in every direction. If you split between both, you become terrible at everything. Not "worse in each area but has it all" it just has nothing.

A Fi/Fo has stronger melee and stronger techs and better offensive options and better defensive options and more HP than a Te/anything. Of course it has weaker melee than a Fi/Hu, and of course it has weaker techs than a Fo/Te. But it has both. And isn't completely terrible at either one.

You know what is a good compromise? Going Fo/Fi instead of Te/Fo. Better tech damage, but weaker melee and weaker support, but not by much. A Techer's melee is around twice as good as a Force's, but with a Fighter sub, rod melee can get 44-69% better to close the gap on something no Force should even care about. A Techer's support is maybe 10-20% better than a Force's. No one will miss anything other than the larger Zondeel.

[gigawuts]

Shit, I hear awesome stuff about FI/FO if you have an allclass teching 10* (madame's umbrella or more ideally umbra stick, basically)

You get good melee with all of its balancing abilities, you get stances that fix up your weaker techs, you get GREAT base tatk (Fi has the third best tatk of all the classes), and you get all the advantages of FO's skill tree.

FI/FO sounds like it plays closer to how I want TE/anything to be, but with more pure melee and less mobility than I'd like. I'd ideally want certain PA's on wands - things that function similarly to grapple charge, dead approach, etc. then the staple melee abilities such as something that can inflict stun.

I feel like the intended desire was to make techs seem like PA's, but it fell short. This is why I'd like something like Zero Tech Range Advance, with range up to gigrants' AOE range. Something to amp up close range tech damage, but not long range tech damage.

[Zipzo]

The need to compare a class in combination with another class is obvious and implied.

Te/everything is strictly worse than Fo/everything. In an attempt to do multiple things, it does none of them to any degree of success approaching Fo/anything or Hu/anything or Fi/anything. Te/Fo is strictly inferior to Fo/Te in all ways but melee damage, and without any of the specialist melee class' abilities designed around closing distances etc. it falls short there too. Wand aside, Fo/Te has every single ability Te/Fo does with better tech stats. That means Techer as a main is intended to focus around its melee component - and again, falls short, no abilities that balance melee can be utilized on wands, etc.

But you know all of this, and it's also obvious and implied. You post in the techer thread a lot these days, so there's no way you haven't seen it before. So...why are you playing dumb again? Like I said, if you want to argue just for the sake of it, get a hold of Zyru.

You're starting an entirely different argument now about wands, which is forever the ongoing debate. I understand there are a handful of parrots here who like to piss on wands all day but Wand damage is nothing to scoff at, especially if you run TE/FI. I would run TE/FI in a second over FO/FI if my goal was to be a caster with with melee capability, because TE's melee potential is much superior. Look, I just gave you an example of where Techer is a superior choice to FO, and there only needs to be one existent circumstance in which it is for it to not be considered "inferior" to another class.

Keep drinking whatever koolaid you want though...

[gigawuts]

You're starting an entirely different argument now about wands, which is forever the ongoing debate. I understand there are a handful of parrots here who like to piss on wands all day but Wand damage is nothing to scoff at, especially if you run TE/FI. I would run TE/FI in a second over FO/FI if my goal was to be a caster with with melee capability, because TE's melee potential is much superior. Look, I just gave you an example of where Techer is a superior choice to FO, and there only needs to be one existent circumstance
in which it is for it to not be considered "inferior" to another class.

Keep drinking whatever koolaid you want though...

And ranger is a superior trap class to every other class.

That doesn't mean its traps are any good. It just means nobody else has traps.

To actually be decent in real gameplay, traps would have to be WAY better than they are now.

That is wands on techer. Yeah, it does superior melee & techs than force. That does not mean its melee & techs are on the level of force's plain techs.

The "debate," which is not really an accurate word for it since I'm not about to get into an actual debate, of wands is not separate from techer. Due to the lack of an allclass wand and a lack of an easily obtainable allclass rod, the topics of wands and techer are pretty much inseparable.

At least you stopped trying to make up some silly argument out of nothi-oh there it is, that trivial remark or tone of voice you must put in every post. No replies from Zyru?

[Zipzo]

And ranger is a superior trap class to every other class.

That doesn't mean its traps are any good. It just means nobody else has traps.

To actually be decent in real gameplay, traps would have to be WAY better than they are now.

That is wands on techer. Yeah, it does superior melee & techs than force. That does not mean its melee & techs are on the level of force.

The "debate," which is not really an accurate word for it since I'm not about to get into an actual debate, of wands is not separate from techer. Due to the lack of an allclass wand and a lack of an easily obtainable allclass rod, the topics of wands and techer are pretty much inseparable.

At least you stopped trying to make up some silly argument out of nothi-oh there it is, that trivial remark or tone of voice you must put in every post. No replies from Zyru?
Techer melees better than a Force. Techer casts better than any x/Techer or Force combination.

Therefore, while we can battle all day over which would kill a certain boss faster, or run X mission faster solo...this means there is an instance in which Techer is a superior choice as a main class for a pretty popular play style (not for everyone).

[gigawuts]

Techer melees better than a Force. Techer casts better than any x/Techer or Force combination.

Therefore, while we can battle all day over which would kill a certain boss faster, or run X mission faster solo...this means there is an instance in which Techer is a superior choice for a pretty popular play style (not for everyone).

So were you going to ever do anything but argue over nothing and state the obvious, or was this your whole purpose of replying?

Next update are you going to talk about how ranger is a superior trap class to gunner?

[Zipzo]

So were you going to ever do anything but argue over nothing and state the obvious, or was this your whole purpose of replying?

Next update are you going to talk about how ranger is a superior trap class to gunner?

Ummm...I'm arguing because you were implicating that Techer was useless on all fronts in comparison to any number of other alternative choices, and I think that everything I've said this far has been a means to the end of illustrating that Techer has a place and is in fact superior at something, and not superior in the way that ranger is superior in traps...you know better than to reach that far...

[gigawuts]

Oh. Looks like I didn't make my point properly then.

Techer has better melee damage. The point I'm trying to convey is its better melee damage, due to the inherent problems facing melee with closing the gap and increased risk in closer proximity without significant gains in unit options (zan units are a laughing stock and fen units are 500k, 10m, and the arm unit is so rare it literally is not even available in the player shop), is not enough to compensate for the lost tech damage. If you don't care and you just want to whack things with a stick by all means go ahead, it's not like the lower performance means much.

It's the inherent flaw of split design. Unless a split class is given advantages that would be overpowered on specialist classes, it won't be able to keep up. This can come in the form of mobility, survivability, multiple types of damage, or hell any number of things. It doesn't need to be a master of anything, it just needs to have strengths specialists very plainly don't. In that regard the split class does kind of become a specialist of that individual task, but now we're splitting hairs so thin that we're changing the molecular composition of the hair.

[Syklo]

What's happening here is something like this.

Compare a mag with 15 pts in every stat vs a mag with one stat fully maxed out vs a mag with 50pts in 3 stats.

First is basically what TE is right now - below par in everything (or otherwise just demented), 2nd is what a specialist would do, 3rd is what TE should be - Decent in what it can do and not what it doesn't do.

Just because TE does things other classes can't, does not mean it's superior. That said, I still love smacking things using wand gear as a TE/FI (when I do run TE/FI, that is), and in some cases it can outperform my FI/TE

Also you said TE can cast better than anything else, yet it's proven that wands not only have lesser T-atk, they also have a longer interval between casts.

If you have an opinion, at least state why that is your opinion, instead of just "I believe this is good"

[Zipzo]

What's happening here is something like this.

Compare a mag with 15 pts in every stat vs a mag with one stat fully maxed out vs a mag with 50pts in 3 stats.

First is basically what TE is right now - below par in everything (or otherwise just demented), 2nd is what a specialist would do, 3rd is what TE should be - Decent in what it can do and not what it doesn't do.

Just because TE does things other classes can't, does not mean it's superior. That said, I still love smacking things using wand gear as a TE/FI (when I do run TE/FI, that is), and in some cases it can outperform my FI/TE

Also you said TE can cast better than anything else, yet it's proven that wands not only have lesser T-atk, they also have a longer interval between casts.

If you have an opinion, at least state why that is your opinion, instead of just "I believe this is good"

Except I didn't state that TE can cast better than anything else, I said it can cast better than any combination with Techer or Fo as a subclass. Reading comprehension, my friend.

The mag comparison is rubbish because the stats on your mag don't define an entirely different play style or means for which you distribute your damage like something as important changing your class does. You can basically go magless and perform just fine as mags are simply equipment requirement bots.

I already stated why my opinion is what it is...it does my chosen role better than the other options...to be a Hunter or Fighter/FO would be to prefer using any number of the melee classes weapons and specialize in the hunter playstyle. Even if I did prefer Fo to Te as that combination, I'd lose out on things such as TB, and let's face it the range on support is crud without it.

To be a Techer main is to enjoy casting spells and melee-ing on the fly when it's appropriate and you have gear. To have a FI subclass is to make that meleeing worth while.

The only single point I will agree with Techers inferiority is Te/Fo VS Fo/Te. Te/Fo is inferior to Fo/Te, but that's the only scale in which some of you are judge Techer, and that's not fair. Techer is not an inferior class all around, it has the tools to be effective as any other main class, especially if you sub FI.

[Syklo]

Except I didn't state that TE can cast better than anything else, I said it can cast better than any combination with Techer or Fo as a subclass. Reading comprehension, my friend.

The mag comparison is rubbish because the stats on your mag don't define an entirely different play style or means for which you distribute your damage like something as important changing your class does. You can basically go magless and perform just fine as mags are simply equipment requirement bots.

I already stated why my opinion is what it is...it does my chosen role better than the other options...to be a Hunter or Fighter/FO would be to prefer using any number of the melee classes weapons and specialize in the hunter playstyle. Even if I did prefer Fo to Te as that combination, I'd lose out on things such as TB, and let's face it the range on support is crud without it.

To be a Techer main is to enjoy casting spells and melee-ing on the fly when it's appropriate and you have gear. To have a FI subclass is to make that meleeing worth while.
I must've misunderstood you when you said "...x/TE or any Force combination" to mean FO as a main or sub in combos and thus I said "better than anything else" since non-forces or non-techers can't cast techs (which should've been implied), unless I'm not comprehending you....again. Even then, most people won't see how a TE casts better than a FO in either main or sub, but that depends on what you mean by cast.

You're right, the mag comparison doesn't compare playstyles, and that's not what it's comparing: it's comparing capabilities.
Still, there're many things that can improve and help define/distinguish techers from forces; stuff like how forces have Flame S charge and bolt PP save, but something of those sorts for the TE elements. Even then, TE is only a small part of the whole balancing issue.

If it does your chosen role best out of what's available (I didn't see you mention it, but you claim as so), then don't let us force/persuade you into not using it, or insult your choices. These arguments seem to happen frequently around here between those who play casually/purely for fun and those who play mostly for optimal efficiency.

I'll just wait until Territory burst Advance comes over - it sounds promising (although I'm more interested in the skill resets).

[Dark Emerald EXE]

Rebalance ice

Never see people use it -.-

[Alisha]

i simply want Te to be like a fomarl or a wow enhancement shaman or a ragnarok odyssey cleric .a class that uses magic to enhance melee. but i dont think thats possible under the current subclass system wich is like zonde broken. i guess the easiest thing to do would be to buff the % on wand gear wich currently sits at 20%

[Arialle]

does the skill reset applies to every class? or in a way its in the form of an item ticket....cause i dont use FO/TE yet i could use it for my HU/FI =p

or just every skill tree gets reset once

[UnLucky]

Except I didn't state that TE can cast better than anything else, I said it can cast better than any combination with Techer or Fo as a subclass. Reading comprehension, my friend.

Uh, no, x/Fo is usually better than x/Te in most cases. You get stronger overall techs and PP Charge Revival and Bolt PP Save and Flame S Charge.

x/Te gets Deband Cut and Territory Burst. Elemental Weak Hit isn't as good as 3x Tech Advance. PP Convert and PP Restorate aren't nearly as good as PP Charge Revival except for a Ranger.

So if you're actually casting offensive techs, you will want Force. If you mainly want Zondeel, Resta, and Shifta, you will want Force. If you want a full support subclass for the slightly better Shifta, the damage reduction on Deband, go Techer.


Techer melees better than a Force.
And this doesn't matter because Techer's melee+tech < Force's melee+tech

[TaigaUC]

I've only briefly tried Fo/Te as subclass to other stuff, and felt that Force was generally more useful, mainly because of the PP regen during casting.

I think Ice desperately needs a huge overhaul. It seems to do terrible damage, is slow, has terrible range, has rubbish skills... you just know something's wrong when nobody bothers taking advantage of elemental weakness to ice.

[Zipzo]

Uh, no, x/Fo is usually better than x/Te in most cases. You get stronger overall techs and PP Charge Revival and Bolt PP Save and Flame S Charge.

You don't follow. I was essentially saying that there is no combination of any classes subbing Te or Fo that can outcast a Te as a main. That in conjunction with asserting that Force cannot out melee Techer. In conclusion, if you want to cast spells well with some melee on the reg, there's no reason you should pick Force over Techer as your main, because Force can't do that, and Hunter/Te OR Hunter/Fo also does not do that. Make sense yet?

@Syklo

I could have just said the word "subclass" I suppose but I was trying to be specific.


If it does your chosen role best out of what's available (I didn't see you mention it, but you claim as so), then don't let us force/persuade you into not using it, or insult your choices. These arguments seem to happen frequently around here between those who play casually/purely for fun and those who play mostly for optimal efficiency.

This is a misinterpretation. I'm not going out of my way to justify the Techer tree motivated simply by my love for its playstyle, nor do I subscribe entirely to playing whatever I feel like even if it sucks because I find the way it works fun. I'm literally saying that Techer has a place on the front line with all the other classes. It has its own quirks but it is not sub-optimal to have Techer as a main or sub-class (unless you are a Fo/Te arguing the worth of going Te/Fo of course, which is the usual rat race you guys run in). It has tools that make it different maybe not in being stronger than a force at spells, or stronger than a hunter class at melee...but in other categories. Where you see a tree of things that are worthless to you because of what your force tree looks like, other builds may shine.

The use of the word "optimal" is shady at best in these discussions anyway. You can clear any map with an MPA of 12 hunters, rangers, or forces. You can kill any boss in a 4 player party of hunters, rangers, or forces. You can destroy and plow through every single AQ available with a party of 4 techers.

If you're doing an activity that mostly involves mobbing (farming ruins), are you always changing your class to force? If you're doing an activity that mostly involves killing bosses, are you always changing to ranger? If you said no to either of these, then I guess technically you aren't playing optimally.

Essentially what I'm saying here is, if you're not going out of your way to be optimal, why criticize an entire class for being sub-optimal because of a few T-Att points (which has barely any relevance to proving that point).


And this doesn't matter because Techer's melee+tech < Force's melee+tech
Um...yes...side by side the force tree has the advantage...but add in subclasses.

[UnLucky]

You don't follow. I was essentially saying that there is no combination of any classes subbing Te or Fo that can outcast a Te as a main. That in conjunction with asserting that Force cannot out melee Techer. In conclusion, if you want to cast spells well with some melee on the reg, there's no reason you should pick Force over Techer as your main, because Force can't do that, and Hunter/Te OR Hunter/Fo also does not do that. Make sense yet?I see. Pretty confusing wording. So yes, a Techer main has better techs than any other main other than Force. That's... pretty obvious.

But I think a Fi/Fo with an Umblla Stick has better techs than a Te/Fi or even Te/Fo with anything but Elysion. They'd be pretty close, though, and the top 10* wands are probably easier to get.


Um...yes...side by side the force tree has the advantage...but add in subclasses.
Ok, a Te/Fi's melee+techs < Fo/Fi's melee+tech, and a Te/Fo's melee+techs < Fo/Te's melee+techs, and a Fi/Te's melee+techs < Fi/Fo's melee+techs.

[Zorafim]

Ice's problem is that it's worse than its counterparts in every regard. Fire is a wonderful tree, because all of its skills are useful. The least useful skill in fire is better than the most useful skill in ice. Ice also doesn't have any neat element specific skill like the other two main elements do, and it has no modifying boosters. It's also strong against just about nothing.

From what I can see, the techs themselves are just about fine. All I use is Rafoie and Safoie right now, and I can easily see myself replacing them with Sabarta (I think it's called?) and Rabarta. If only ice had a skill that doubles its effectiveness like thunder and fire do.

[UnLucky]

Sabarta is like a really bad Grants, actually. Takes longer to charge, doesn't follow moving targets, requires a direct line of sight, and isn't much stronger. The listed Power rating is off, because it's accounting for four hits, when Sabarta only hits three times.

[Zorafim]

Shows you how much I've been using ice since I gave up on it. So there we have it. Even ice's techs are worse than equivalent techs of other elements.
Why do they always do this to things I love? At least give me a light spec to make up for it.

[gigawuts]

Sabarta is only good on things that don't move. If something doesn't have hyper armor it will lock their movement completely, allowing it to hit the target. If the target DOES have hyper armor it's just a fancier gimegid.

It's interesting the things sabarta will actually lock down. Koltargos are one, didn't expect it to work but it does. I saw someone mention it even works on some minibosses? I'd need to see that to believe it, if so that sounds very powerful since it will completely halt an enemy's movement, even mid-animation, for the full duration of the tech - from releasing the button to the last icicle strike.

Also, rabarta is horseshit-scented dogshit. It's gibarta if gibarta was worse. It needs to at least get a larger vertical hitbox or something, but nope.

[Zorafim]

Eh? Rabarta became worse than Gibarta? I thought Gibarta was the one that was junk.

Well, again, it doesn't matter. There's no reason not to spam rafoie on everything, so that's what I'll do.

[gigawuts]

At release gibarta was basically half of rabarta.

Players whined, because it was horrible. So sega gave it enormous range. It's basically a rabarta you cast in front of you instead of around you. Except even bigger and for much more damage than rabarta.

[Syklo]

@Syklo

This is a misinterpretation. I'm not going out of my way to justify the Techer tree motivated simply by my love for its playstyle, nor do I subscribe entirely to playing whatever I feel like even if it sucks because I find the way it works fun. I'm literally saying that Techer has a place on the front line with all the other classes. It has its own quirks but it is not sub-optimal to have Techer as a main or sub-class (unless you are a Fo/Te arguing the worth of going Te/Fo of course, which is the usual rat race you guys run in). It has tools that make it different maybe not in being stronger than a force at spells, or stronger than a hunter class at melee...but in other categories. Where you see a tree of things that are worthless to you because of what your force tree looks like, other builds may shine.

The use of the word "optimal" is shady at best in these discussions anyway. You can clear any map with an MPA of 12 hunters, rangers, or forces. You can kill any boss in a 4 player party of hunters, rangers, or forces. You can destroy and plow through every single AQ available with a party of 4 techers.

If you're doing an activity that mostly involves mobbing (farming ruins), are you always changing your class to force? If you're doing an activity that mostly involves killing bosses, are you always changing to ranger? If you said no to either of these, then I guess technically you aren't playing optimally.

Essentially what I'm saying here is, if you're not going out of your way to be optimal, why criticize an entire class for being sub-optimal because of a few T-Att points (which has barely any relevance to proving that point).

To those questions: No and no (but for bosses I'd go gunner rather than ranger if I were to be "optimal"), and I am not playing optimally (nor do I intend to.....most of the time)

To that last point, it's because there are many things I believe techer is missing that it should've had since the beginning. Also, it isn't much "different" to me compared to its 1st-tier equivalent Force; unlike RA vs GU and HU vs FI, TE just feels too much like a force for me to actually like it as much as I expected, even with a wand. Put simply, I'm criticising it not for it being sub-optimal, but for it not being unique enough - what I said about TE being inferior/worse than X is just based on what I've read on these forums, I personally don't care about those particular stats. What I DO care about is that Techer doesn't feel like it should be a new class altogether as it is now: it's like 70% Force and 30% new, techer, if you get my drift.
At the same time, I'm criticising based on preference; what I want techer to have, many others won't (E.g. Flash escape - a much quicker Mirage escape, compatible with step flash attack). If TE is supposed to have decent melee, it should at least have that "pace," but that's my opinion. I still play TE/FI in some parties because I'd be more useful (not optimal) that way (none of my friends are interested in playing that supporting role).
Heck if I ever get that nishiki I might stick to TE/FI.

[Zipzo]

Sabarta is like a really bad Grants, actually. Takes longer to charge, doesn't follow moving targets, requires a direct line of sight, and isn't much stronger. The listed Power rating is off, because it's accounting for four hits, when Sabarta only hits three times.
Something to note is that Sabarta has a feature that that makes up for its lack of "follow" that doesn't really get noticed much.

On normal mobs it will "freeze" the mob momentarily, allowing the following part of the attack to connect without issue. The problem is this function doesn't happen on bosses so...yeah they just move and the spell normally is pretty inaccurate.

[Tenlade]

Sabarta is only good on things that don't move. If something doesn't have hyper armor it will lock their movement completely, allowing it to hit the target. If the target DOES have hyper armor it's just a fancier gimegid.

It's interesting the things sabarta will actually lock down. Koltargos are one, didn't expect it to work but it does. I saw someone mention it even works on some minibosses? I'd need to see that to believe it, if so that sounds very powerful since it will completely halt an enemy's movement, even mid-animation, for the full duration of the tech - from releasing the button to the last icicle strike.


the times when Sabarta locks down minibosses tend to be the weirdest times. for rockbear it wont slow or stop it except for when its doing its flip in the air move, resulting rockbear just hanging in the air for a second before getting hit(it even freeze framed the shockwave when it hits the ground). Seems to be inconsistent when it even works or not though, because i fought it a second time and it didn't seem to work then.

[Raymee]

I have perfection vision, but when Zonde fills up my entire screen with just this bright white on my WHOLE screen for multiple seconds, it's just stupid and annoying. I'm so over it.

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