How Knuckles should have been [Archive]

Rien

Apr 24, 2013, 10:03 AM

The following video is from a korean pvp game.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fof-7qarIh8

Honestly when I first heard knuckles, I thought of power weapon, not speed weapon. But then hitstop happened and the gear feels like it doesn't matter that much to anything other than knuckledash.

What do you think knuckles should be like?

Zyrusticae

Apr 24, 2013, 10:08 AM

You know, watching that video, all they'd need to do is kill the hit stop and it'd be great. The Dempsey Roll PA (yeah I don't even remember what it's actually called) is really fast... as long as you're swinging at air.

Although I wouldn't be averse to a power increase for them being largely single-target, either. Twin daggers could use the same...

Meji

Apr 24, 2013, 10:12 AM

Looks pretty much just like the knuckle PA's in PSO2, if you ask me.

Blade & Soul has cooler knuckles (Kung-Fu Masters) though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gSSUAZST_E"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gSSUAZST_E

gigawuts

Apr 24, 2013, 10:15 AM

Single target, fast, always at full gear speeds, then changing gear to reduce hitstop and charging time of chargeable PA's (edit: or each gear bar grants you hyper armor, with 1 bar being consumed on damage taken, no gear = no hyper armor, 3 gear = 3 hyper armor).

Side Bonus: Hunters could knuckle dash without subbing fighter, since they would always be at full gear speeds, meaning knuckle dashing wouldn't require gear anymore and only step attack.

Zyrusticae

Apr 24, 2013, 10:16 AM

Goddammit, I'm STILL waiting for Blade & Soul! Even if all I do is play through each class once and never touch the game again, I just know it'll be worth it.

Kind of an unfair comparison though, as Kung Fu Master is an entire class dedicated to fisticuffs, whereas knuckles are just one weapon out of many.

gravityvx

Apr 24, 2013, 10:38 AM

How knuckles should have been. Quick approach, a pull in for easy aoe, fast devastating attacks, use of feet in some PAs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnIDMY3JVMg

gigawuts

Apr 24, 2013, 10:57 AM

And yeah, the lack of use of feet is depressing. Mechguns, daggers, and even swords get more feet use than knuckles :disapprove:

Rien

Apr 24, 2013, 09:41 PM

And yeah, the lack of use of feet is depressing. Mechguns, daggers, and even swords get more feet use than knuckles :disapprove:

I don't understand why people have a foot fetish when it comes down to PAs...

Someone explain to me please? D:

MetalDude

Apr 24, 2013, 09:48 PM

Who WOULDN'T want to throw in some roundhouses during their punch combos?

Rien

Apr 24, 2013, 09:50 PM

Who WOULDN'T want to throw in some roundhouses during their punch combos?

Me?

It all comes down to preference..

Punisher106

Apr 24, 2013, 09:54 PM

I personally think we need to be able to spit fire.

gigawuts

Apr 24, 2013, 09:57 PM

I dunno I think a weapon based around hand to hand combat warrants some kicky stuff, more than mechguns do anyway.

BIG OLAF

Apr 24, 2013, 10:04 PM

I personally think we need to be able to spit fire.

First you get drunk, then you spit fire!

I know that knuckle PAs need more hyper-armor. Getting slapped around before finishing one PA over and over again gets quite irritating.

BlueCast Boy

Apr 24, 2013, 10:06 PM

Well I don't play much on Knuckles but what wrong with them on PSO2, it feels like they need more range on their attacks.

Alisha

Apr 24, 2013, 10:13 PM

people complain about hitstop but it doesnt bother me at all.

strikerhunter

Apr 24, 2013, 11:05 PM

I don't understand why people have a foot fetish when it comes down to PAs...

Someone explain to me please? D:

It's because they all want to be Chuck Norris doing that roundhouse kick.

PSU had a Fist PA that used your foot for a kick animation and it was sweet along with the rest of it.

Honestly I had high hopes on the animation of the Knuckles PA to be something similar to PSU's but it's not (some are alright animations but most are bleh comparing to PSU's).

And as said in a few posts above, Knuckles is entirely based on a hand-to-hand combat. In an hand-to-hand up close combat you use your feet.

Syklo

Apr 24, 2013, 11:24 PM

Not only do knuckles lack grab-types (Lolwut), but they also lack kick moves.
Like, really? If you can kick with a giant sword, why not knuckles?

And just now I had the odd idea where knuckles would have a similar palette to rifles/launchers/tech weapons, with left mouse using left fist and right mouse using right fist (shift to use PA's) and making all kinds of combos (Either that or a PA similar to T.mech's Infinite Fire that does this).

Also, hit stop, ugh, take it away!

@Foot fetish - because it's Fashion Star Online and we like to dance in combat.

Alisha

Apr 24, 2013, 11:33 PM

then use tdaGS and do flash kicks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkCFTM_QtdA

Sayara

Apr 24, 2013, 11:33 PM

What is "hit stop?"

I'd say Knuckles need a good knock away attack. They got the the stun, the knock up but no knock away PA, unless Charge Punch does that, i dont know honestly. Though i guess if you honestly wanted to, you could combo 2 JAs+Pendelum over and over hahaha...

Like Surprise Strike (the backhand smack) could easily knock back istead of up. Its such a devastating punch ._.

jiasu73

Apr 24, 2013, 11:43 PM

MetalDude

Apr 25, 2013, 12:02 AM

people complain about hitstop but it doesnt bother me at all.
The hideous amount of pausing on what would otherwise be a decent PA called Pendulum Roll doesn't bother you at all? The gear clearly is meant to boast Knuckles as a super speedy weapon, but they get slowed down for stupid reasons because of hitstop.

blace

Apr 25, 2013, 12:51 AM

I say scrap knuckles altogether and throw this in:
http://img7.hostingpics.net/pics/424448CS_crow_counter_sword.png[/spoiler-box]
[spoiler]Giant metal gauntlet of death for the win.

Syklo

Apr 25, 2013, 01:19 AM

I say scrap knuckles altogether and throw this in:
http://img7.hostingpics.net/pics/424448CS_crow_counter_sword.png[/spoiler-box]
[spoiler]Giant metal gauntlet of death for the win.
THIS

CROW COUNTER SWORD GO!

ReaperTheAbsol

Apr 25, 2013, 01:25 AM

Give me this and I'll be happy.

Akihiko plz. (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gg6cIVhQU3s)

blace

Apr 25, 2013, 01:28 AM

THIS

CROW COUNTER SWORD GO!
I'd prefer this one:
http://boardr.pmang.com/files/pm/attach2/cmboard/323/b6/29-/69-/82-/29698293./%EA%B8%B8%EB%A1%9C%ED%8B%B4.jpg[/spoiler-box]
[spoiler]Mostly because I own one

TaigaUC

Apr 25, 2013, 01:32 AM

Hit stop is basically the hit pause/pausetime when contacting with attacks. It adds "thickness" and "heaviness" to hits, but at the same time, it can detract from the flow of the gameplay, and leaves the player vulnerable and immobile. It's something that should be used sparingly.

Knuckles is clearly based on boxing. If you ask me though, when you're traversing outer-space fighting all sorts of strange creatures, it's kind of strange to rely solely on your fists, and not use anything else. I'd also have preferred that knuckles was more of a kick-boxing style, and less static.

As it is now, the knuckles playstyle is fairly simple (spam jab, cancel, ducking blow, repeat) and at least half of its PAs are virtually useless. It also feels more like wielding hammers than swinging fists.

In general, I am not a fan of action games where the player attacks feel "static" and barely move. If players are fighting in a large area, I think it'd be much more fun and satisfying to have high-velocity movement attacks that smack enemies and send them flying. Knuckles uppercut PA doesn't even launch enemies into the sky like other upwards attacks. It's not satisfying at all, and is too "realistic". We have near-unlimited potential to exaggerate and emphasize. Why not make things a little more exciting?

If SEGA wasn't lazy, they could have implemented some sort of combo system where you could use specific PAs in a unique combo chain. It's clear they are afraid to deviate from the basic classic PSO style regular attack and PA "special attack" system. When they add anything else, you can bet it'll follow the same formula.

charliewu

Apr 25, 2013, 02:40 AM

So what Knuckles need is a skill that COUNTER the enemy's move while dealing a lot of damage and stunning it at the same time!

Rien

Apr 25, 2013, 02:45 AM

Supposedly Ducking Blow's invincibility frame was meant for this, without the stun part.

Resanoca

Apr 25, 2013, 02:56 AM

Touka

Apr 25, 2013, 03:12 AM

Knuckles uppercut PA doesn't even launch enemies into the sky like other upwards attacks.

It depends on the size of the enemy really,Diggs twirl hilariously in the air after a uppercut.You can also jump cancel the uppercut and continue hitting them too.

Rien

Apr 25, 2013, 03:14 AM

Actually, I'm pretty sure this is how Knuckles was supposed to be. D:

-snipe-

I could always use the term 鉄拳 (tekken, Barbara's knuckle COs use this term), since I'd rather deal with a Tekken picture.

But really.

Kondibon

Apr 25, 2013, 03:52 AM

I'll just leave this here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JS11l8OEeeI

Ce'Nedra

Apr 25, 2013, 04:25 AM

Kondibon

Apr 25, 2013, 04:31 AM

Wait, is that Kratos in the back on the Victory Screen? Man I seriously need to play more tales games ;-; But I like how that knuckles are made in ToX, they look pretty nicely done. I'm starting to get more fan of knuckles as a weapon lately /o/

Alvin has a costume based off the one Kratos had near the end of ToS. o 3o

I've always been a fan of knuckle type weapons but like most people here I find them pretty lackluster in PSO2, though more from the lack of variety then the hitstop (it'sstillreallybadthough). Kicks and some more movement based PAs would be nice.

Ce'Nedra

Apr 25, 2013, 04:34 AM

Ah now I checked again I see it, I also see that girl in the back has Farah Oester's outfit as well. I've been out of tales series way to long x.x

I wouldn't mind seeing more kick PA's like Regal uses in ToS and ToS2 tbh. Swallow and Super Swallow Dance should be fun to use in PSO2 if you ask me. Also Beast series.

Alisha

Apr 25, 2013, 04:37 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uF1J1DB3LYY

Kondibon

Apr 25, 2013, 04:43 AM

SSF4 Dudley Combo Video - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uF1J1DB3LYY)

I'm sure someone is gonna hate the idea but some of his attacks make me wish we had PAs with multiple parts like in PSU. Infact. That's what Knuckle gear should have done.

If they make the gear speed the normal speed decrease the hitstop, they could replace the gear effect with something like each PA having 3 parts and the higher your gear is the more parts you can do.

I don't see it happening but I like the idea.

Mekhana

Apr 25, 2013, 05:47 AM

I liked Knuckles better back in the Genesis/Megadrive days.

When his stages were the same as Sonic's but due to his gliding, Juggernauting through walls and climbing abilities you could access different paths and areas in the levels.

lel /trollmode off

Rosel

Apr 25, 2013, 06:23 AM

Rayden

Apr 25, 2013, 07:07 AM

I'm sure someone is gonna hate the idea but some of his attacks make me wish we had PAs with multiple parts like in PSU.
I really miss that. PSU did a lot of things better (but not everything).

gigawuts

Apr 25, 2013, 07:11 AM

Pretty much every weapon wasn't done very well when compared to other games.

In PSO2, you have a lot of ideas which just aren't fleshed out very well. I don't understand why melees don't have gap closers or the ability to quickly sprint towards monsters. Those things are basically mandatory for a decent melee character in any action game.

Some people will argue that they do, with Straight Charge, Assault Buster, Grapple Charge, Ride Slasher, etc.

And they'd have a point, if melee weapons worked like guns where you can select any of the 3 PA's you have selected. Being at the wrong stage in your combo means you can't use the right PA half the time, so you have to step and HAVE to have one of those in the first PA slot if you actually want it easily accessed.

It limits options, and a better option would be, well, better.

Sara-hime

Apr 25, 2013, 09:36 AM

I'm sure someone is gonna hate the idea but some of his attacks make me wish we had PAs with multiple parts like in PSU. Infact. That's what Knuckle gear should have done.

If they make the gear speed the normal speed decrease the hitstop, they could replace the gear effect with something like each PA having 3 parts and the higher your gear is the more parts you can do.

I don't see it happening but I like the idea.

THIS! Multi-part PAs, that's one of the main things of what felt off about Knuckles for me. And it ties into using your whole body as a weapon and none of this hitstop business. Especially the feet, and I'm no foot fetishist. She's got strong, powerful legs, she should be able to use them Gundamnit!

Coming from PSP2/i, that was one of the defining styles of combat that my character made her forte. And in PSO2, it feels stiff! There was a PA that harkens back to Drunken Master (complete with spitting fire even). Or the one where after two strong swipes, you launch your knuckles in a circling arc sending enemies around you flying; great for crowd control! These PSO2 weapons aren't Knuckles, it's space boxing! :no:

Project Astral

Apr 25, 2013, 11:41 AM

How knuckles should have been. Quick approach, a pull in for easy aoe, fast devastating attacks, use of feet in some PAs.
[DnF] Male Fighter; Streetfighter Preview - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnIDMY3JVMg)

I don't quite think the Male Streetfighter would be a good comparison for how knuckles should have been since they specialize more in... throwing junk.

Now Monk on the other hand,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNo3sqXVHrY
I'm basically seeing all the PA's and such we already have just done better!

And for the people who like to play with their feet a little more (or who like the idea of powerful instead of fast) I think the Female Striker fits the bill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0S2RRW31ifs
Female specifically since the Male version is almost entirely foot play with no fists involved.

Just my own home-sick opinions on the matter.

gravityvx

Apr 25, 2013, 11:57 AM

But monk is terrible in that game, the point I was getting at with male fighter is that they should also bring utility to the group while also increasing their damage potential at the same time with faster more devastating aoe attacks, pretty much they bring their complete A game while also being a massive help to the group as a whole. Like the net fighters use to pull in all enemies into a cluster, the stun lock AoE, and the speed at which they can close distance. If that's not great utility for a melee I dunno what is.

Project Astral

Apr 25, 2013, 02:06 PM

Ah, well I can't disagree with that train of thought since they are the same reasons why I would prefer knuckles to play more closely to a Monk than what they are now. Namely that suction on Hurricane n' Roll vs. Flash Thousand's nothing. ;~;

And also they weren't as bad post innovation/revolution! Still not the best, but I'm sure you get what I mean!

gravityvx

Apr 25, 2013, 04:33 PM

Yeah, Hurrican n' Roll was really nice with the pull in, if anything I'd take that if we couldn't get anything similar to the nets. But i'd still prefer something like it since it would bind the targets while also giving you a % damage increase to anything caught in it, making it much easier for knuckles to hit multi targets and increasing the overall damage at the same time.

But yeah, monks weren't that bad just outclassed by so many who had more convenient utility skills for parties and higher damage.

Meji

Apr 25, 2013, 05:43 PM

Actually, I'm pretty sure this is how Knuckles was supposed to be. D:

[spoiler]Right? Right? D: Don't hate. Someone was bound to do it.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/df/Knuckles_the_Echidna_picture.gif/250px-Knuckles_the_Echidna_picture.gif[/spoiler-box]Agreed.
This game totally needs more echidna rap music.

Yeah Rouge, she's sexy and smooth~ ♪
^ Actual lyrics from SA2 (http://www.animelyrics.com/game/sonicadventure2/kicktherock.htm)

"Sonic" knuckles were datamined though, right?

~Aya~

Apr 25, 2013, 05:45 PM

Dont let drunklou see this thread...

NoiseHERO

Apr 25, 2013, 05:47 PM

drunk lou can't see anything, especially fat ghetto chicks comin' to eat em. D:

yoshiblue

Apr 25, 2013, 05:52 PM

Not too late to give fighters fighting stances for knuckles. Would be interesting to see a Shoto stance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ihnEb70fms"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ihnEb70fms
[SPOILER-BOX]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByBzpvusHe8"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByBzpvusHe8[/SPOILER-BOX]

~Aya~

Apr 25, 2013, 05:52 PM

drunk lou can't see anything, especially fat ghetto chicks comin' to eat em. D:

Yourbothugly so thats okay~

Do yuu unzasutando?

Shadowth117

Apr 25, 2013, 06:06 PM

Yourbothugly so thats okay~

Do yuu unzasutando?

ugliest^

Anyways, even if I don't play fighter itself I still think knuckles should have had SOMETHING good about them. As a lot of people have said, they're pretty much an extreme CQC weapon with no real benefits or damage bonuses for being that. At least in PSU they had a little bit of use because they had the extra damage. They could have been better, but Ikk Hikk hit things like a truck which was awesome (however dumb it looked).

Touka

Apr 25, 2013, 06:09 PM

Not too late to give fighters fighting stances for knuckles. Would be interesting to see a Shoto stance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ihnEb70fms
[SPOILER-BOX]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByBzpvusHe8[/SPOILER-BOX]

I'd rather see them incorporate boxing stances like southpaw etc.It's not impossible to do just look at Steve Fox from Tekken.

Zenobia

Apr 25, 2013, 06:11 PM

ugliest^

Takes one to know one^

Liked Ikk Hikk hated how the animation was so slow required you pull it off at the right time bosses aside.

Still loved the skill though.

NoiseHERO

Apr 25, 2013, 06:11 PM

How about fists could've been ANYTHING than what they are now, and would've been cooler.

But for some reason SEGA is obsessed with bass ackwards logic in their game/concept design.

Maybe we'll get a kick or grapple or a weapon saving PA in episode 2.

~Aya~

Apr 25, 2013, 06:40 PM

Galax

Apr 25, 2013, 07:32 PM

I still want to see something with subbing Force or Techer letting you add techs to your ranged and melee weapons, making them act differently - particularly melee.

Wind-leap flying kicks with knuckles, for instance.

Or maybe slamming your sword into the ground and unleashing a gout of flame.

Or even something as simple as having the ability to temporarily bind a tech to a PA, and do something like flame-powered Ride Slasher or electric-explosion Stun Coincido.

So many possibilities.