Twin Daggers

[Chdata]

What's the general consensus on these? I always here they're useless (except for dashing quickly).


Preferably, is there anyone who actually uses them?

[Yutaka20]

err i heard that one of the PA upon using it ,
let's all enermies atk go fully dodged.
i am not sure of it though.
cos someone told me before that dark ragne's atks missed him all the way while he spams the PA (i think it's the new PA or something)

[Zenobia]

I used em all the time for flying enemies.

Its just back then TD really couldn't amount to what DS's PA Deadly Archer could output which is why you hear a lot of people riding the DA train.

Twin Dagger had its uses being that it had a 360 degree counter and being able to nullify Quarts laser rain yeah some good things it had.

Now that Bloody Sarabande is out for them well yeah they are MORE useful now.

That Damn PA makes quick works of mobs quick and has JG frames like DS's PA Acro Effect but wayyy better.

[strikerhunter]

TD quite good now with BS and gear damage improved but IMO the true problem is that it can't maintain being airborne for too long and couldn't even do aerial combat that well compared to how GUs in the air.

So instead of fixing the original role of TD being airborne/aerial based, they just upped its gear damage and gave a useful PA. Typical Sega.

[Radical Dreamer]

TD quite good now with BS and gear damage improved but IMO the true problem is that it can't maintain being airborne for too long and couldn't even do aerial combat that well compared to how GUs in the air.

So instead of fixing the original role of TD being airborne/aerial based, they just upped its gear damage and gave a useful PA. Typical Sega.

Really, the main problem with TD's air combat is that you need to rely on Raging Waltz or Symphonic Drive to move around in the air, both of which are kinda slow and a little iffy when it comes to hitting.

They really should have made it so that using the shift key with TDs teleports you closer to your target, or maybe even away depending on which direction you're pressing on the keyboard. It'd be like how Predicahdas (those mantis things that always seem to warp behind you) zip around.

[Terrence]

Twin Daggers ware pretty useless indeed. They were used sometimes for flying mobs but that was to show off... The only great thing was the Weapon Action which could cancel almost all incoming attacks. But now, with a boost of Twin Dagger Gear (+40% damage when the three slots are full) and the magnificent Bloody Sarabande (very powerful, big AOE, many invincibility frames and super armor during all the PA), they are on an equal footing with other FIghter weapons. I play Fi-Te/Fi-Hu, I use TD only, ... And that's wonderful (since Episode II, of course) ! =)

[Chdata]

I just tried it out real quick.

Many I just don't know how people player Fi at all, both knuckles and twin daggers are such short range weapons that I find myself running to enemies more than even attacking them, just how do you guys manage against stuff like that?

plsteachme!!

[Zenobia]

I just tried it out real quick.

Many I just don't know how people player Fi at all, both knuckles and twin daggers are such short range weapons that I find myself running to enemies more than even attacking them, just how do you guys manage against stuff like that?

plsteachme!!

Yeah FI is a whole new ball game if you're a force user trying to get into the FI game lol.

It really is like a child with new toy been playing melee sense CB and OB melee and me get along hand in hand I do love the other classes but melee is just my baby~!

Dunno if you know how to knuckle dash or dagger dash yet but once you get those down you can start jump dashing with em soon.

Heh maybe even triple and quad step never know~!

[Chdata]

Melee is always what I figured I'd bother playing last. I've gotten p good with Gunner at least.

I've played a little hunter and swords/lance/partiz are just fine/easy to use. But Fi is a lot different with even less range.

[strikerhunter]

I just tried it out real quick.

Many I just don't know how people player Fi at all, both knuckles and twin daggers are such short range weapons that I find myself running to enemies more than even attacking them, just how do you guys manage against stuff like that?

plsteachme!!

First, learn to dance ;)
Second, dash ;)
Third, dance dash around/towards targets ;)
Fourth, strike(r) from position based on stance ;)
Fifth, repeat process again and again ;)
Sixth, only go to sixth if 5th failed because mob died :-P

[NeverDT]

I always here they're useless (except for dashing quickly).

Probably OE spammers spreading lies because they know their favorite weapon is at the bottom of the barrel now.

ahem

Fi does involve a lot of maneuvering. You want to NOT GET HIT when you are charging DA and you have to get used to the range/killzones of that and your other weapons/main PAs.

To do said maneuvering, you can dash -> jump -> dash -> step attack and repeat with TD (or just dash -> step attack with knuckles). You can also use RW, but I'm not practiced in RW (partly because my computer handles palette swaps badly) so I can't advise you there.

With BS, daggers got a second chance. You are not absolutely invincible while using it, but they have a very long frontal parry window which, as a bonus, you do damage during. As long as you use BS in midair, it can be spin cancelled at any time (which is good if you're about to get hit from multiple directions, or by a big AoE like ex or bringer). Spin parry seems to have a split second when you hit shift where it won't block anything, though, so don't expect it to work exactly like JG.

You can get 2/3 gear very quickly by jumping and then spinning when you reach your desired height (for hitting whatever it is you're trying to hit). Against enemies that don't move around much, though, you should be getting an extra spin after your first attack/PA to fill gear. That said, you will kill most mobs in one BS at 2/3 (or maybe even less) gear, assuming you have a decent FiHu setup and a decent weapon (錦, Lambda Legzaga or one of the pyroxes at 50% - Iblis is an overpriced piece of trash). It also has a very large, if short, arc that allows you to hit a lot of enemies at once. Don't underestimate its boss potential though, I can kill Rodos in under 3 min, Dominus in about 4:30 and BS's parry/TD's spin in general (when used properly) are immensely useful against bosses that actually attack you normally.

Note that 錦's potential is pretty good, adding significant damage to brave stance which I find myself using most of the time. If you really don't like Fi's other weapons, it's a totally viable weapon for HuFi.

Don't worry about staying airborne all the time, normal attacks have short range and sooner or later you'll need to blow PP just to get to another enemy to save gear. Like I said, gear really isn't that hard to charge. Just get used to avoiding enemies while you close in on them, then smack them.

Hopefully helpful. I main TD since ep2 because I wanted to for a long time and the buffs made it more than viable.

[KuroKanden]

Bloody Sarabande really added a new spin to TD.

It essentially provides you invincibility frames equivalent to that of a messiah time while at the same time being able to delivering insane damage ; the frontal parry. You also have the luxury of cancelling out the PA on demand, which is always nice. Alongside with the TD gear buff, a single parry can fill up 3/4th of your gear, that's even more damage on BS

Honestly with the addition of BS , it really made the FI class alot more forgiving to play as. Spamming OE leaves you vulnerable for a good 4~5seconds, Bursting with DA requires precision and positioning and may be interrupted. BS however, doesn't boast that high of a learning curve to use, it has just about everything - damage, speed, burst, range. Often times when I'm in a pinch, BS always saves my ass.

[gigawuts]

I find daggers a lot more desirable now, and find that BS pretty balanced with the way dagger gear works. Getting one gear bar for a quick sarabande is quick and effective in most situations.

What I don't like is how, as said, movement is tied to two 30 PP PAs. I wish they'd nerf Raging Waltz's damage and reduce its cost to, like, 10 PP. That would make it cheap and effective for seeking enemies. Ah, also, make it always approach an enemy instead of arbitrarily going diagonally down if something is 1 pixel too far away. Then give Symphonic Dive the role of seeking damage dealer.

It wouldn't be an ideal solution, but it would work IMO. Alternatively, just make dagger gear reduce PP cost of PAs. Maybe if they add secondary gears some time down the road (which they should have by now anyway).

edit: Amusingly, with Bloody Sarabande, the dagger gear change, the knuckle hitstop fix, and backhand smash I actually find double sabers almost completely undesirable. BHS meets my deeps-it-now preferences, and daggers + HU sub weapons fit my AOE & precision needs completely. Deadly Archers Double Sabers need something like slightly larger AOE or something, I really don't see the need to even have them anymore. Deadly Circle certainly didn't help me like them more. I'd sell my Stray Blower if I could.

[Hrith]

Yeah, double sabers are not as amazing as they used to be, especially on my male, who is too tall to use Deadly Archer well.

I really want a powerful pair of all-class knuckles to use as HU/FI (well, beside the impossible-to-get Weiß Komet).

Jumping gets you one bar on the Twin Dagger Gear gauge, and so does using the dagger dodge, so if you jump and use the dodge, you have two bars on the gauge almost instantly.

I do not use Raging Waltz and Symphonic Drive; the only PAs I use now are Shoot Polka and Bloody Saraband and I can spend an entire fight in the air, so just work on your gameplay, I guess.

[gigawuts]

Yeah, the lack of allclass knuckles are the sole reason I don't go hu/fi full time. They're the one thing luring me back to my FI main. I think Sega knows it, too, which is why they added the Amen Hotep. They have a habit of trying to balance weapon and class usage before actually adjusting weapon and class balance. They do this by introducing incentives like affordable weapons or good all/multiclass options.

It's like they're trying to make sure they're actually imbalanced, instead of players just forgetting they can use them. Which is good I guess, but unnecessary if they had more real experience with what the game is actually like.

I badly want those knuckles though. I'm seriously playing fi/hu with a weapon palette consisting of 2 swords, 1 WL, 1 partisan, my nishiki (lol) and my 50 lightning elder fists. Backhand Smash ERRYTHANG. If I could get mainclass swords with good allclass knuckles I'd just about lose my shit.

Maybe with the next round of egyptian themed weapons? I can imagine the exact same model being shared between knuckles, mechguns, and twin daggers or even wands if you want to make it a stretch.

[KatsuraJun]

So what're the best realistically obtainable daggers available right now? Trying them out after reading this topic, and I like em. Twin Kamui looks nice but I'm not holding my breath.

Lava Seekers look like they're the only daggers with a half-way decent latent, but even then, 3% on fury stance seems... incredibly underwhelming. Unless it's a 125->128% bonus rather than 3% of the 25% bonus.

[Bellion]

If you're going Fi/Hu, then your most affordable choice is probably the Lava Seeker. It's stronger than the Clavelnix if you decide to unlock its ability that increases Fury Stance by 1% per level unlock with a max of 3%.

[KatsuraJun]

Yeah, I was looking at those, but are there any other options besides those and Twin Kamui? I can farm anything else, I'm just not holding my breath for the Twin Kamuis to drop.

It just seems odd because most of the potentials seem... crap, so I was just wondering if I was missing something.

[Bellion]

Besides the Iblis Blood giving 5% JA Bonus at lvl 3 or the ExQ 11☆ daggers giving 12% extra damage with no weather effects around, I don't think so. Iblis Blood and the other 10☆ daggers with higher base attacks are 20m+ at least on Ship 2.

[osirisky]

I hope this isn't straying the topic off too hard, but I've been really itching to know... Would anyone know when Bloody Sarabande or Oorchestraaa (if people even use this for DPS anymore?) starts outdamaging Deadly Archer?

I only ask this because I was blessed with a Twin Kamui earlier this week, and I'm still using a Fossil Victor. I was contemplating on upgrading my DS, until the Twin Kamui landed itself into my hands. Perhaps in other words, what's the bare minimum DS I would need to get before Deadly Archer starts outdamaging a Twin Kamui?

Hopefully there's no confusion here.

[NeverDT]

Unless you are willing to pay a silly amount of money for a weapon that is only stronger than LS situationally (Draal Volg, Nagel Ong, presumably the gwana nero daggers will get the darker potential eventually) or if you can hit 430 dex for Iblis, Lava Seeker is your best bet atm. If you want a slightly easier time grinding you could use Lambda Legzaga instead (I'm not sure how 2% damage increase weighs up against 90 satk though).

In terms of raw DPS, sarabande won't really touch DA or backhand because it's slower in general and you need to charge gear first. The real advantage it has is that it DOES have good damage for a TD PA particularly with gear, and it also hits a lot more stuff than DA or backhand. I have no idea what Kamui's damage with potential is because I don't have it, but IMO it's not much better than a potentialed LS if you have a unit setup that prevents you from spamming PAs below 50% PP (i.e. stamina 3/stamina boost galore).

[Sandmind]

If you want a slightly easier time grinding you could use Lambda Legzaga instead (I'm not sure how 2% damage increase weighs up against 90 satk though).

According to what I had been reading, at current endgame, 20 to 30 base atk stat is equivalent to 1% damage. But with both weapon at 50% element, you can further the lava seeker advantage of 90 Satk by 45ish Satk. So yeah, Lava Seeker is stronger, but the Lambda is still a good place holder until then (althought in that case, I wouldn't unlock the potential).

[Terrence]

Would anyone know when Bloody Sarabande or Oorchestraaa (if people even use this for DPS anymore?) starts outdamaging Deadly Archer?
When, I don't know. How, I have an idea since it wouldn't be a surprise if the new 10☆ Bloody Art dagger got a Bloody Sarabande damage increase by 9%/13%/17% as its latent ability.


I only ask this because I was blessed with a Twin Kamui earlier this week (...)
You were blessed indeed. Congrats ! =) Niren Kamui is powerful, cool-looking and its latent ability is really great albeit conditional.

[kabutozero]

Eh , orchestra doesn't outdamage DA ever . BS MIGHT , but DA is faster , but you can still use BS and do nice dps , I just like DA more for hit and run

[SakoHaruo]

You can play the entire game with Bloody Sarabande, you can kill bosses or high HP enemies with Deadly Archer. They're both good.

[Hrith]

If you're going Fi/Hu, then your most affordable choice is probably the Lava Seeker. It's stronger than the Clavelnix if you decide to unlock its ability that increases Fury Stance by 1% per level unlock with a max of 3%.But 3% of what, Fury Stance itself, or Fury Stance and all its related skills? Is it +3%(would be decent) or x3%(would be useless)? So many potential abilities lack clarity in this game =/

Either Lava Seeker or Clabernicus are very cheap to obtain and get to 50%. I only made a pair of Clabernicus for all the AD Volcano spam I did and to get more PSE >_>

Belial Saw is very cheap, now, and will be a trade-in at some point, something to keep in mind.

[Bellion]

It's +3% to Fury Stance itself.

[Hrith]

So 28/13? Not bad.
Not that I do not believe you at all, but I'd like to know where you found that information. The wiki only says フューリースタンスの効果が3%上昇する, which is as obscure as it gets (kouka = effect/effectiveness).

[Bellion]

Well, I don't exactly have a source. I have damage tested a Divulnigel at +10 and +10 with lvl 3 ability against my Eru Tron+10 a while ago. Since Divulnigel has the same ability as that of the Lava Seeker, the results should be similar.

Basically, the criticals of Divulnigel +10 lvl 3 ability > Eru Tron +10> Divulnigel +10. They were both 50 element and tested on lvl 43 Spardan which should be neutral to dark and fire. I know it's not exactly solid proof, but if it were x3% of Fury Stance, then Eru Tron should've done more damage than the Divulnigel with lvl 3 ability. There is a 42R-atk gap between the two at +10 base.

Edit: I should probably state that I tested that as a Ra/Hu.

[Hrith]

All right, thanks for sharing.