Some questions about FoBr, RaHu and BrHu

[TaigaUC]

Some things I've been wondering about.
Hope it's okay to just make a new thread asking about them.

1. Is Braver now better than Techer as a sub-class for Force?

2. How's First Hit for Ra/Hu? Worth getting instead of maxing Killing Blow?

3. The effectiveness gap between Gu/Hu and other classes feels huge to me. Is that normal, or am I just not playing other classes well (eg. Fi/Hu, Fo/Te, Br/Hu, Ra/Hu)?

4. On my hybrid Br/Hu, I've got a +10 50 fire Dio Rakuruikou (the purple and green katana), rank 14-16 PAs. On my SATK Br/Hu I have an Agito/Kougongin. Either way, Katana still feels really weak to me (esp when compared to Gu/Hu). Is this normal?

5. Should a Hybrid Braver focus on one stance or have both of them up to maxed Stance Up? If one stance, which is better? And should I max the Charge skills?

6. Are most people still stuck on Shifta and Deband rank 13 like I've been for pretty much the entire year?

7. Is the Rapid Shoot tree still a joke?

[Bellion]

1. I can't say one is truly better over the other since they both have their uses. I do favor Te now rather than Br or Fi for SH.

2. I generally use First Hit mostly for TAs, that's pretty much it. It's great for using with launchers, but you probably won't see the damage bonus for many quests unless you're soloing or you're killing things that spawn immediately after another with Cluster Bullet. Pretty close to useless in 12/12 MPAs.

3. Probably not playing other classes that well.

4. They are kind of a bit weak right now.

5. Probably Average Stance with charge, up, and the stance itself maxed. Since you'll be using the katana a lot and not many mobs have weakpoints for striking weapons.

6. Shifta lvl 16 club from Sazan lvl 16 hunting.

7. Yeah. Although, you have nothing else to get when running a pure Bullet Bow tree.

[Hrith]

3. The effectiveness gap between Gu/Hu and other classes feels huge to me. Is that normal, or am I just not playing other classes well (eg. Fi/Hu, Fo/Te, Br/Hu, Ra/Hu)?I think you misunderstand the maximum damage potential of a class and how easy it is to reach it.
Gunner is not more effective than other classes, but it's stupidly easy to play, so anyone can reach most of the potential of the class without any skill required.

Ranger, fighter and especially hunter are still far ahead of gunner when it comes to clearing mobs, and fighter is not for behind when it comes to killing bosses (some I actually kill faster as fighter).
A pure bow braver will kill several bosses faster than gunner, especially Quartz and Ex Dragons.

Casting classes have always been a lot weaker, it's just that before SH, enemy HP was too low for that to matter.

[Terrence]

1. Is Braver now better than Techer as a sub-class for Force?
Maybe not better since you lose a few interesting things the TEchter has to offer but it allows FOrce to do far more damage if you use the right element.

[TaigaUC]

Thanks for the replies.


2. I generally use First Hit mostly for TAs, that's pretty much it. It's great for using with launchers, but you probably won't see the damage bonus for many quests unless you're soloing or you're killing things that spawn immediately after another with Cluster Bullet. Pretty close to useless in 12/12 MPAs.

I pretty much only do TAs, solo or with one friend.
Outside of occasional EQs, I rarely play in MPAs (probably why it's taking me so long to level up).
I guess it's better to go with First Hit, considering the usage.


6. Shifta lvl 16 club from Sazan lvl 16 hunting.

Did you do that by farming boxes or doing the Bluf trick?
I tried the Bluf trick a few days ago and couldn't seem to get a red one to appear.


Ranger, fighter and especially hunter are still far ahead of gunner when it comes to clearing mobs, and fighter is not for behind when it comes to killing bosses (some I actually kill faster as fighter).
A pure bow braver will kill several bosses faster than gunner, especially Quartz and Ex Dragons.

I see your point. I do feel that I have to work much harder as other classes.
Maybe it's also a gear issue; my Ra/Hu, Fi/Hu etc are still using 30 element AQ stuff.
My Gu/Hus are all using 50 element lv3 latent Yasminkovs (they were easy to obtain).

Fighters tend to use Deadly Archer and Bloody Saraband, right?
Hunters primarily use partisan? Or is sword much better now than it used to be?
I'm assuming Rangers mainly use Cluster Bullet, Addition Bullet and Homing Emission.

I've heard people saying bow is super powerful.
Is that only for pure bow, and with Rapid Shoot tree and Weak Stance?


Maybe not better since you lose a few interesting things the TEchter has to offer but it allows FOrce to do far more damage if you use the right element.

Hmm, okay. Thanks.

[reaper380]

The effectiveness gap between Gu/Hu and other classes feels huge to me. Is that normal, or am I just not playing other classes well (eg. Fi/Hu, Fo/Te, Br/Hu, Ra/Hu)?

I too am having thoughts in my mind regarding this question. That S roll serves a big utility + dmg boost to Gu class. Its like the ultimate step atk and paired with gunners range weapon is pretty much a win win.TBH, SH is really killing melee class. Unless you want to play for dps (Ra/Hu servers the purpose), i think playing classes that you enjoy are more worthwhile. As for braver class, i think giving the class more time for devs do develop it as they still dont have thier advance class aka Fi/Gu/Te. Though there is speculation that there might not be one?

[TaigaUC]

I've been thinking that the increase in flying enemies makes melee class even more annoying to play.

Hrith is right though, it's more that Gunner is much easier to play effectively.
The other classes can reach the same level of effectiveness or better, but for various reasons it's much more difficult to achieve.

[Bellion]

Did you do that by farming boxes or doing the Bluf trick?
I tried the Bluf trick a few days ago and couldn't seem to get a red one to appear.

Fighters tend to use Deadly Archer and Bloody Saraband, right?
Hunters primarily use partisan? Or is sword much better now than it used to be?
I'm assuming Rangers mainly use Cluster Bullet, Addition Bullet and Homing Emission.

I've heard people saying bow is super powerful.
Is that only for pure bow, and with Rapid Shoot tree and Weak Stance?

Do the last desert Arks Quest to find both at the same time. Getting a bluf to spawn red is RNG, so keep at it and make sure that the blufs are pure red and have no hint of black. Desert is one of the few places where finding a Shifta and Sazan overlap.

Fi/Hu and Hu/Fi are pretty much played the same way.
Assault Buster, Sacred Skewer, Deadly Archer, Bloody Saraband, Symphonic Drive, Backhand Smash. Over End is still used for the AoE, but a mix of DA,SD, BHS covers high hp single targets for the most part. I hear Ride Slasher for the sword got a good buff, but haven't used it.

While Addition Bullet, Cluster Bullet, and Homing Emission are very popular, don't neglect the other PAs that Ra can use. Divine Launcher, Rodeo Drive, Impact Slider, Diffuse Shell, Thrillerplode are great for damage. Some perform better than others in different situations. It's just a matter of learning distancing and types of enemies that are present.
There are other PAs that are used for utility that are very helpful such as Crazy Smash. And I'm too lazy to list everything.

Bullet Bows are powerful enough without going through the Weak Stance or Rapid Shoot part of the tree if you've got a good hybrid setup for equipment.
Going Br/Hu, Kamikaze Arrow and Master Shoot are powerful against single targets. Penetrate Arrow can be ridiculous on Bal Rodos when you it's just swimming to the side and you can shoot it in a straight line. Going Br/Ra, don't even bother using Kamikaze Arrow over Master Shoot because it doesn't get the bonuses from Weak Hit Advance on the Ra tree.

Oh, and let's assume every PA is level 16.

[holmwood]

Do the last desert Arks Quest to find both at the same time. Getting a bluf to spawn red is RNG, so keep at it and make sure that the blufs are pure red and have no hint of black. Desert is one of the few places where finding a Shifta and Sazan overlap.


What's this bluf trick people keep talking about? :O

[Zenobia]

What's this bluf trick people keep talking about? :O

As a force if you see a bluf you mirage dash through so it does an atk and re spawn's itself. Do not hit it or have your partner cards hit it which you shouldn't have any with you to begin with, also try not to get touched by it yourself.

Just keep Mirage dashing through till you get a pure red one might take a couple of tries cause you might mess up but once you get one hit it with a spell or something and repeat.

[holmwood]

As a force if you see a bluf you mirage dash through so it does an atk and re spawn's itself. Do not hit it or have you partner cards hit it which you shouldn't have any with you to begin with, also try not to get touched by it yourself.

Just keep Mirage dashing through till you get a pure red one might take a couple of tries cause you might mess up but once you get one hit it with a spell or something and repeat.

Ooh, interesting. Thank you! There's a lot of goodies in the red container droplist. Looking forward to trying this out myself. ;)

[TaigaUC]

...

Thanks for the detailed post.
I didn't know Impact Slider and Diffuse Shell are useful.

Regarding SaZan... I rarely use wind techs so I'm not too familiar with them.
What's the difference between RaZan and SaZan?
Last I recall trying them, they looked identical.
I know the damage and cost are different.

[Bellion]

Sazan sucks in enemies(smaller Zondeel), whereas Razan launches enemies.

[Kietsu]

Thanks for the detailed post.
I didn't know Impact Slider and Diffuse Shell are useful.

Regarding SaZan... I rarely use wind techs so I'm not too familiar with them.
What's the difference between RaZan and SaZan?
Last I recall trying them, they looked identical.
I know the damage and cost are different.

Impact Slider got something in the range of 2x - 2.5x damage when they brought it to level 16. Diffiuse got a nice buff as well.

Razan launches enemies, even when uncharged. It's pretty handy, actually.
Sazan drags enemies toward its center, kind of like a targeted zondeel with less range but huge damage (at level 16)

[TaigaUC]

Ah, okay. Thanks. Sounds fun.

I was only really using RaZan, and only to flip Garongos.

[Hrith]

Fighters tend to use Deadly Archer and Bloody Saraband, right?Well, those two need no introduction, but there are many PAs that are very useful as FI/HU, including Backhand Smash, Flash Thousand, Pendulum Roll, Straight Charge, Acro Effect, Shoot Polka, and more I'm forgetting.


Hunters primarily use partisan? Or is sword much better now than it used to be?I don't know. All three hunter weapon types are absolutely amazing, although they all lack a truly good 1v1 PA (Lv16 Heavenly Fall got a boost, so maybe that).
I mostly use Speed Rain, Slide End, Sacred Skewer, Sonic Arrow, Other Spin and Other Cyclone on mobs, Over End, Holding Current and Rising Edge on bigger stuff.
Hunters can efficiently use Deadly Archer now, thanks to the 10* double saber Amun Hotep.


I'm assuming Rangers mainly use Cluster Bullet, Addition Bullet and Homing Emission.Cluster Bullet Lv16 did not get boosted while all (or most) other launcher PAs did.
Divine Launcher and Cracker Bullet now outdamage it (yes, Cracker Bullet), not sure about DPS.
Cluster Bullet is still very useful, or course, because it attacks from above, bypasses frontal shields and only costs 30 PP.
Concentrate One is also useful now, but does not outdamage Flame Bullet or Diffuse Shell. Concentrate One has very longe range going for it, though.
Diffuse Shell got absurd. I can easily do 65~70,000 damage with it, for only 28 PP >_> Against mobs, they just all die, like that. 20,000+ damage to a whole group. What, SEGA.
Flame Bullet is highly underrated, it's a strong 1v1 PA that allows you to get the effect of SS and move afterwards. Lv16 has been greatly boosted, at that.
Glory Rain is still the highest close range damage ranger can do.
Impact Slider is something new, and I have yet to find it at Lv16.
Homing Emission was already atrociously situational, it's now barely worth using at all.


I've heard people saying bow is super powerful.
Is that only for pure bow, and with Rapid Shoot tree and Weak Stance?Bow is really strong in 1v1 situations, it's a very poor weapon type for clearing mobs.

[TaigaUC]

Thanks for the detailed reply.

I didn't know that Pendulum Roll is worthwhile now.

I respecced and grabbed Sword Gear again, but it doesn't seem very useful in MPAs.
Everything dies before I can get the gear up.
I've heard that Wired Lance Gear is kinda worthless. Is that still true?

I'm not sure, but I think you got Glory Rain and Homing Emission descriptions mixed up?

[Bellion]

I'm not sure, but I think you got Glory Rain and Homing Emission descriptions mixed up?

He's been saying that for a while now, but I really do find the opposite to be true.
[SPOILER-BOX]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxh-vgTTmmQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxh-vgTTmmQ[/SPOILER-BOX]

Until I or someone can kill an SH Quartz Dragon faster than that with Glory Rain instead of Homing Emissions, I'm not going to believe it. For a single target(boss preferably), 2 HE projectiles will out-damage a whole Glory Rain and easily obtain higher DPS than it.

[Hrith]

Glory Rain is higher damage per second, that's a fact. You cannot argue facts, even if PSOW people like doing that.
Glory Rain can be spammed without losing Standing Snipe. It also can simply be spammed. Homing Emission cannot be spammed, at all, since you need to relock onto targets (at least two or three, even if I often try to go for more). As a consequence, you will almost always lose Standing Snipe and need to stand still for at least one second to get it back. How's that for DPS; you know, damage per second.

People posting videos to attempt to prove a point? Really, in 2013?
Videos only prove that what happens in them is possible, nothing more.
Using an example as an argument is the very definition of an utter lack of argument.

Glory Rain does not work in all situations. No shit. Glory Rain will not work on agile bosses like Quartz Dragon and Banther/Banshee couples. Okay, information from December 2012, moving on.
Try outdamaging Glory Rain with Homing Emission on Big Verdha, Dark Ragne, Zeshrayda, Verdha Soma, Dark Falz Elder, Caterdran(sa), Gwanahda, Goronzoran.

Even Diffuse Shell is higher DPS than Homing Emission, now, and since the whole point of using HE for big damage is to get close to the target, you cannot use the range argument.

I do 7,800 damage with Glory Rain, 28,000 with Homing Emission, so it takes three projectiles to outdamage it, but the DPS will be far behind, for the reasons cited above.

I'm not saying HE is crap or that if you're comfortable using it you should change to Diffuse Shell or Glory Rain, but don't spew out bullshit that it's the highest 1v1 rifle damage by posting a video that is stupidly unfair to one of the PAs.
A video has as much validity as an argument as I would have posting a picture of Homing Emission doing 500 damage to a Micda and Diffuse Shell doing 70,000 to a weak spot with WB applied to it and claiming that Diffuse Shell has 140 times the DPS of Homing Emission.
A video may impress the little kids, but that's how your argument sounds to me.


I didn't know that Pendulum Roll is worthwhile now.Most knuckle PAs became a lot better when they removed the hit-stop, but especially Pendulum Roll and Flash Thousand.


I respecced and grabbed Sword Gear again, but it doesn't seem very useful in MPAs.
Everything dies before I can get the gear up.
I've heard that Wired Lance Gear is kinda worthless. Is that still true?Do not play in MPAs? You cannot use MPAs as a test of any form of skill or performance.
If you really want to use Sword Gear in that situation, Sonic Arrow and Guilty Break are your only decent options. Those two are probably the best MPA photon arts a sword user will have.
Sacred Skewer tends to be the best MPA photon art on hunter, though.

Wired Lance Gear is a very good skill, especially for 1 SP. It's not perfectly reliable, but the damage increase is very significant when it happens. Do not try to get it, it will just happen. For the minimal SP cost, it's a very high payout.

[Bellion]

For Tranmizer and Gwanada, HE can be spammed without losing Standing Snipe.
Really now, you can't out-damage Glory Rain with Homing Emission on Big Varder, Dark Ragne, Varder Soma, Dark Falz Elder, and the Catadran types? It only gets easier to do so with multiple parts that can be auto-targeted.
Gwanada is a special case in which you can get Standing Snipe and out-damage GR with HE.
You can do it at a distance or up-close when the belly is exposed with HE coming on top in DPS.
Now, for Goranzoran and Zeshreida, you may have a point. Although, I'd use different PAs to deal with those two.

Diffuse Shell may be stronger than 2 HE projectiles, but it doesn't necessarily mean higher DPS. 4 HE x2 on SH Tranmizer > 4 DS on SH Tranmizer when it exposes the weakpoint because HE is faster between shots if you know how to use it in that situation.

Something like De Malmoth? You can probably throw that up to GR or DS.

Since lvl 16, it looks like GR does outdamage lvl 16 HE with 2 projectiles. Meanwhile, my numbers are 9.2k x 10 vs 42k x 2 on WB Gwanada belly.

I would call my video biased and all but you missed that I killed it while it was in a stunned state pretty much from start to finish. There goes your mobile boss argument. And posting something like a video is much more credible than your words. Way to go, POSW.