Beats.

[Logical2u]

I have a sneaky suspicision that Beats reflect on how many rares can be found. I found two hard to find things on hard in 1 minute. then I didnt find a rare again until the afternoon.It seems that maybe Sonicteam inputs rare item data once an hour but it is limited to like, the first 20 people who find it? Am I insane?

[Blue-Hawk]

On 2003-04-14 13:24, Logical2u wrote:
Am I insane?


nah, just another victim of the beat theory fiasco. its a load of bull. rares are nothing but a randomized algorythm embedded in the coding of the game.

[LollipopLolita]

if you look at all the excavation reports and beats of the runs, you will see that there is no correlation

[Guntz348]

On 2003-04-14 13:27, blue-hawk wrote:


On 2003-04-14 13:24, Logical2u wrote:
Am I insane?


nah, just another victim of the beat theory fiasco. its a load of bull. rares are nothing but a randomized algorythm embedded in the coding of the game.



Can a computerized algorythm be truely random though?

[gideonx]

Yeah of course. Just as random as you rolling a die http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif Also a reason that beats cannot be true:

1. If st uploaded new data every hour, you could go offline and it would never change.

2. If that were true you could set your GC's clock to 5 minutes ago and find the same rares then log off, set it back 5 minutes and do it again. As long as you are offline it doesn't matter what time your GC says it is.

3. If you kill 8 of the same monster in the same beat (very easily done by a force). They would all drop the rare everytime. This obviously never really happens.

[Robantifast]

Well there seems to be something wrong with the statement of it being completely random:

1. I have found rares on specific beats a lot too. I find them in chunks as well. (a bunch of them on 440-449 etc.)
2. I have a small amount of programming experience and know that with what I've worked with the only way it is possible in my experience to make something appear to be random is to randomize it by the clock. Just putting INT(RND*50) in simple QBasic doesn't generate random numbers, they're the same each time. Even randomized by the clock, there's a general pattern to it at the same time every day. This is why I think that beats may play some role however unintentionally. But I could very easily be wrong as I have very little experience in programming. Anyone care to correct me? Barubary?
3. Just because a monster has increased likelyhood of dropping something on a specific beat doesn't mean that it will. That's why forces don't find 4 of the same rare by rafoieing a group to death if the beat theory is correct.

Anyways, just my input. I don't believe it's random, and I think my proof is decent enough. Someone correct me if it's flawed.

[gideonx]

First off, How do you explain the appearancce of rare monsters? If programming cannot generate random numbers (which it can) and all "random numbers" are based off of a beat clock. Then Appearance of Rare monsters wouldn't be random either and would also be based on A clock.

I know for a fact that true random based applications do exist. They are used in high level math applications as well as probablility/statistic studies.

Secondly, If a rare weapon can only be dropped from a certain monster a certain time of the day. Then rare weapons would be WAY WAY WAY WAY more rare.

"Just because a monster has increased likelyhood of dropping something on a specific beat doesn't mean that it will"

Even if say a 9-star item were available 5 minutes out of every hour from a certain monster. That is only one twelth of the entire day. And then there would still have to be a Random integer caluculation applied to see if the monster actually dropped the weapon. Even with a 50% chance to drop a weapon during that beat time, that weapon could only be found from that specific mob 4% of the day. Meaning that if you killed 1 Evil Shark every 5 minutes for 24 hours straight. you could only find a maximum of 24 of those rares in 1 day, and would more likely find 11 or 12.

These numbers are all hypothetical of course, but in my opinion restriction of the finding of rares based on a beat time is rediculous. However, increased chance of finding a certain Item may be possible, but it is unlikely.

Again my point stands that you could just change your clock and easily find rares.

What is the purpose of the beat timer?
PSO was geared towards and international market. There are translation devices embedded into the game itself. It would only be right to embed a universal clock into the game as well. That is the purpose of the beat time clock. Easily translatable to any languages/timezones standard clock.

Think about any game with random drops, Diablo 2, Everquest, Even the final fantasy games gave you a chance to randomly find certain items on certain mobs (ie: potions, ethers). To suggest that this game is based on a clock seem (in my opinion) like suggesting any game is the same.

There has never been any formal proof of this theory EVER. No one has ever documented repeated increased item findings over one beat period when compaired to another. And if they have tried it has been one or two occurances. The only way to test such a theory would be to clear a certain Area (forest 1 from a quest for instance) Over and over at the same beat period and documenting rares. Then clearing it the same number of times using a different beat period over and over.
If the rares for the suggested "high finding" beat period were significantly higher (say even 20%) then i would change my mind. BUt after a hundred runs at each beat interval I think people would find that the occurance of rares were very very close ( 1-5% difference.)

Ok that's enough ranting. Lemme get on my anti-flame gear http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Minos]

For a program to use a random number, it needs a random number generator which picks a number out of a range of values. A program that serves this role is technically pseudorandom, because a program has no means to actually pick a number randomly. A pseudorandom number generator might perform a series of complicated calculations, starting with an intial seed value, and produces a number.Though they are technically not random (because they are calculated), the values produced by a pseudorandom number generator usually appear random, atleast random enough for most situations.

I do agree the whole certain beats = more rares is BS. But I dont rule out that the the beats might be a small factor in the quest for rares....possibly such a small factor that it might even be insignificant.

Thats just my thought though.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Minos on 2003-04-14 18:21 ]</font>

[gideonx]

/Agree about everything you said. Wish i would have though to mention Seeds and pseudorandomizing http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Robantifast]

*curses PSOW forums for deleting his post*
Dangit...

Gideon, I don't understand your argument very well. How exactly do computers generate random numbers? In my experience, it can appear random if you randomize it by TIMER (the clock). This means that the same numbers would be generated each day. I don't see why this is a bad theory other than there being no legitimate proof for it. It's possible that the drop is randomized by several things such as costume, character class, time on your file, dimensions of your character, etc. I mean those are all numbers right? This could explain how some degree of randomness is percieved but in actuality the beat time does play some role in it. Think about it, enough HUmars and HUnewearls run around that look almost the same to where it could be possible to percieve some sort of pattern in beats. The reason why this isn't percieved completely is because the chance goes up during these periods not becomes 100%, so even the smallest difference in one of the variables, such as one bit shorter in your character can make a difference.
Anyways, maybe this theory sounds completely ridiculous, but that's how I'd randomize things if there weren't a random number generator. Now if there is I will stand corrected.
Anyways, that's all for now, when I get up the strength to type more I might post again.

[gideonx]

First off let me say that beats DEFINATLEY do not have an effect on item drops. I just find it and any other purely non-random theory very very unlikely. Someone should just spend a few days looking at the code and figure it out. Or do an actual study to find if it is true or not. But the beliefe that at a certain beat time a certain enemy will drop it's item is rediculous.

I can't really explain how seeds work ect. But i do know this... Go to your local Office supply store and you will see "Graphics Caluculators". Texus instruments makes a number of these. They have applications inside of them that create random numbers.

Basically a Seed (which is a number) is imbedded in the program (or sometimes can be selected by the user). Using this seed the calculator runs a series of complex calculations (unknown to me) and pops out a number that is random as far as we are concerned. You wonder actually how random are these numbers?
Well i will put it this way, you could sit for a lifetime recording them and never find a repetition in the pattern. Depending on how complex the application is it could produce 1 - infinatley many numbers which are then all applied as variables to give you the "random number".

Think about it this way. You have a stack with 20 pieces of paper in it numbered 1 - 25. Based on your seed say you take every 18th number. SO 18, then 11, then 4, then 22, then 15, 8, .... Eventually the numbers will relapse. So this would hardly be random but then say you had a second stack of papers with 50 different equations. Each time you drew a number you drew a new equation based on your seed as well. THen you took that number and put it through the equation to yield you another number. Then a third stack of papers had another equation that was randomly selected.

You can see that every time you added a new stack of appliccations the chance for reoccurance or repitition becomes less and less and less and less.

This isn't exactly how it works, but this is the only way i can try to explain it http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

And there are advanced probability simulations used by comanies all around the world. Think about casinos for instance. They need to programs for their casino machines and set cash award values based on probability so with 100,000 people playing daily they will make money. If you know about probability you can see that every casino game has a cash value equal to less than the amount you pay to play. Take a game where it costs 1 dollar to play and you have a 1 in 100 chance to win the jackpot. They say statistically a player will win one our of every one hundered game. Therefore recieving the jackpot every $100. Then they take into account the minor prizes and they decide to award the player $60 for the grand prize.

You realise that without probability applications with "random number" generators a casino might be off by a few dollars on their prize money and go bankrupt very quickly. THIS is just one application of a random number generator. It is also used in high lvl physics and the study of molecule behavior.

Wow talk about a geeky post, lol. ANyways hope it wasn't too confusing, i don't really understand it either. (PS. My calculator has no clock so it can't be based off of that)

[Robantifast]

Ah ok now that you explain it that way I understand. I've seen some coincidences so I still think it's possible that beats may have some role, but that's just my opinion. Anyways, thanks for the explanation pal. It was much appreciated. *backs down from his argument*