Gu/Te or GU/Fo Possibilities?

[TheBlackMage]

Hello everyone, I come today with an inquire about subbing either Tech or Force for a Gunner. Originally when I 1st started the game I wanted to play as a super mobile active support as Gu/Te. Granted I knew it wasn't the best idea but I still wanted to try it.

After unlocking both classes and playing around with them for a bit I noticed I started to gravitate more actively damaging with TMG's and spent most of my "supporting" time just casting Resta, Shifta, Deband, Anti, and the occasional Zondeel. (At this time of writing I am a 31 Gunner and 19 Techer.)

So after looking into the skill tree I've been considering the possibility of making a "status effect" gunner to try to take advantage of the TMG proc chance and add extra damage with Poison/Burn.

(Side Note: I'm still new to the game, Is Freeze and Shock even useful in PSO2? In it's predecessor Freeze was just way too powerful. Also what exactly DOES Mirage do? I've been lead to believe it just blinds the opponent but honestly I have no clue. (Also is Mirage useful? :P)

I'm not sure about which class I want to sub as each would benefit me. Listed below is my thought process about how that class woul benefit me. I'm probably 99% wrong about the usefulness of these abilities/skills though. :/

Possible Techer Benefits:
-Wand Gear, Wand Lovers, and Wand Reactor.
-Improved Zanverse and Mirage
-Slight Resta boost (mainly to get the following skill)
-Increased natural PP Regen.
-Territory Burst (For Resta, Zanverse, Zondeel mostly)
-Poison Ignition (This skill just looks really good on paper and with poison TMG's it just seems like it's too good not to get. Sadly I don't know why this skill is usually looked down upon, The damage %'s look good, only 30sec cooldown at max rank, and probably more importantly it can pass poison to other creatures. I need to be enlightened on this topic. ^^; )

To further elaborate on why I'm interested in the detonation of Poison Ignition it's mostly because my PA's for TMG's are Reverse Tap, Aerial Shooting, and Satellite Aim so I'm lacking in the AoE department as far as weapons go. (I should also mention I don't have a wand yet for wand gear's AoE, my T-Atk is too low for the all-cass 400+ and I can't afford any of the Dex wand at the moment. So I'm assuming wand gear will resolve some of my concerns. :x )

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Possible Force Benefits:
-Increased Fire Damage and Reduced Fire charge time.
-PP Charge revival (That plus Gunner's Attack PP Restraint?! *drools*)
-Bolt Tech PP Save (For all those Ilzonde's and Zondeel's etc.)
-Increased Tech damage overall.

My (flawed) logic behind the possibility of subbing Fo is that TMG's are fantastic, they are my favorite weapon hands down. However I struggle with bosses. I know I still have the rifle for Bosses but I'm still lacking in damage (a lot more than I anticipated) Usually this wouldn't bother me but it's a tad depressing seeing people around (or even under) my lvl hit for about 300 per hit while if I can hit the weak spot I'm pulling off 100's and if I miss my damage is almost pathetic. Maybe I just need to invest in a better rifle but I rather liked nuking the crap out of bosses when I was lvling my Force to unlock Techer....
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I am still leaning towards Techer as I feel it's just more situational (which is what I love) but at the same time sometimes it feels like I could just do the Shifta, Deband, Resta, Anti support as a Force and do much better damage wise. Not that I want to just use those basic spells, It's just better to use them currently because of my tech disk lvls/gear/etc. (In short I feel like I'm just playing like a force at the moment and not a techer.) I'm still missing a majority of vital skills tree talents (and decent equipment, the only really good thing I have on me so far are my TMG's) due to being low lvl so perhaps that's part of why it feels like I'm lacking some "oomph" behind my attacks? For example, not having a max lvl Zanverse (what lvl do techs go to again? ^^; I thought it was 10 but I met someone today who said they had a lvl.13 tech.) or the gear/talents to further increase my support skills so they can actually do that supporting thing they're supposed to.

I feel as if once I get good techs and the gear to back it up I won't be struggling so much but that could be said about any class it just feels like this combination is SUPER gear dependent. (Not that I mind, just wanting to get some expert opinions on in some hope of vain effort to reassure myself that it's not necessarily the class combination's fault.

TL;DR: What would be the better subclass for a gunner between Te and Fo?

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On a side note, what are some other awkward class combinations and what is "the worst" class combination?

[EDIT:] Is it possible to have Poison and Burn on the same weapon and if so can a monster be afflicted with both at the same time?
Also what should my priority be in terms of obtaining weapons with status effects? (For example get a Poison TMG 1st then a Poison Rifle then a Burn TMG, or Poison TMG, Burn TMG, then a Poison Rifle.)

[Sayara]

1. Enemies can only have 1 status effect at a time. (Except stun+SE i beleive.)
2. You can't have 2 SE on a weapon at once, but you can definitly trigger SEs by using your techs and your Poison tipped gun.
3. Between TE and FO it depends on what you consider to do with your casting side. If you intend to do alot of physical casting then FO would probably benefit better with the charging PP, zonde -pp spells and so forth. If you're considering more support esque abilities like Zondeel then i'd say Techer is better because the boosted range for deels, restas and whatnot. Plus they say GU/TE has a huge PP pool.

you'll probably get /alot/ of guff from people for even considering GU/TE(FO) anyway because it is not GU/HU and people get a mad hardon for huge #s.
Synergy wise if you're considering "How can i benefit a team" Im not sure how GU/TE(FO) could help a team besides the resta support considering GU and TE and FO are rather squishy for you to try to pool a mob in you and get curbstomped by the enemies (Unless you talis but that'd make things alot slower for you) Though you could zondeel a mob, cool style flip and then point blank some splash GU spell. (with a zero effort gun it does bullshit damage) but you could do the same with a Te/FO or HU/te to suck them in and then get beat up for you.

Though teams are over-rated. GU/TE could be like GunTecher from PSU and that'd be nice.


Oh, also I'd say the best support ... but worst teamset would be RA/te. Support spells up the wazoo PP regen from dead enemies, WB, traps.. you know stuff that people dont use because its not standing snipe and weak hit bonus.

[UnLucky]

Well first of all, techs are not better against bosses than TMGs. You would vastly improve your bossing capabilities by switching to Gu/Hu or Gu/Ra rather than Fo/*. Chain Trigger and Weak Bullet coupled with good single target PAs like Messiah Time, Shift Period, or Elder Rebellion destroy any tech in terms of DPS.

I feel like I've already addressed this in the Build thread. (http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3106490)

As for Poison Ignition, it's too slow and limited to be very useful. You have to be close, and the enemy has to be poisoned. That, and the damage isn't worth the cooldown and the skill points. You could use practically anything else to greater effect in the time it takes to pop off a single poison bomb, especially if your SP is invested in passive damage boosts.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

If you really want to go support, you're better off going Ra/Te. Weak bullet is an infinitely better buff for the party than shifta could ever be which even with shifta advance will only account for 7% of your damage while weak bullet will account for 200% vs bosses.

Shifta and deband are really more novelties than actual skills to build into since they add almost nothing to your stats and even the bonus from shifta critical amounts to nothing for anyone who isn't using crafted weapons, which amounts to most serious players and quite a few casuals. You'll also find later on that resta is more for healing yourself than others as it's difficult to keep them in range. In addition its healing effects save people from having to pop mates, but it doesn't often save lives.

that said the support techs you should be focusing on are spells like Zondeel, Megiverse, and Zanverse. These spells allow for much better mobbing thanks to the strong pull of Zondeel The stronger(than shifta) effects to DPS from Zanverse and the extremely potent healing effects of megiverse. These are support skills you want to focus on and it's strongly recommended that you put at least 1 point in territory burst to increase the area of these effects further.

Even if you stay Gu/Te, use those techs often. Anyone standing in the megiverse field will heal every time they land a hit for a percentage of the damage they do. Thoallows players to hit hard and not worry nearly as much about taking hits.

As far as SEs go, it sounds fun and all but here are somethings you want to keep in mind:
1) regular enemies don't like long enough for DoTs to do their job.
2) only minibosses are affected by real SEs you can't stick DoTs on real bosses.
3) Even though some bosses have some interactions with SEs (for example vol dragon's frozen feet), These don't count as SEs in terms of the game engine. Poison ignition, freeze ignition, chase skills, etc do not count these as SEs and don't interact with them.
4) While minibosses are affected by SEs. only certain ones affect each boss and not all of them coincide with their weakness. for example, you cannot shock tranmizer, but you can mirage it.

If you mostly solo, megiverse becomes less important if you can get your hands on some GMs. I actually sat between two lvl 65 boosted rare bosses and spammed fury stance S roll JAed IF and was invincible. My friend saw this and immediately bought himself a set of GMs, that's how potent those guns are.



I would strongly suggest you sub in ranger or hunter, though Gu/Hu is extremely mainstream(read: OP) And you sound like you don't want to do crazy good damage as much as find something unconventional. I'll tell you this now, PSO2 does not help, reward or even care about snowflakes. Gu/Ra is a fine choice for a class combination with weak bullet and ct quickly dispatching bosses and weak point boosts from ranger helping gunner damage fairly well. And as mentioned, WB helps the whole party as every one even in a 12 man MPA gains from WBs 300% damage mod. But for raw unassisted damage, Gu/Hu and Br/Hu are the flavors of choice.

If you're going to insist on this though, you're not using good PAs. GMs have two extremely powerful AoE abilities - Heel Stab (must charge it for AoE) an the new shift period. You should also invest in the S Roll JA skill as it makes anything you just attack into after a flip do 2x damage. Territory burst Zondeel S Roll JA shift period should make short work of anything you come across at your level if your gear is any good. but you'll find your damage lacking late game due to techer's lack of damage boosting skills.

Other good AoE skills include Thrillsplosion and Additional Bullet for the gunslash, and Messiah Time for TMGs

Basically Gu/Ra is a semi support, upper mid tier DPS class that lets you help the party with damage boosts without compromising your own output too heavily while also being able to kill bosses in about 20 seconds even on SH as long as you keep your gear up to date. Ra/Te Is a complete support build that does lower tier damage due to not being able to do either type of damage well. Rangers can be pretty potent, but it requires hunter to bump their damage up. without that your damage is going to suffer drastically. Gu/Te Is an odd hybrid which only does better when mobbing solo, but in a party doesn't add nearly as much as Ra/Te would.



So to summarize, Gu/Te is a very gimmicky build as techer doesn't directly help it at all. At later levels you'll find that you're contributing very little to parties that have people who use more cohesive builds. This is mostly why you're struggling - you're looking into aspects of the game that don't work as your primary strats. if you want to play a support role, Ra/Te is better, because WB is a much better party buff than shifta will ever be. Solo play, you will always feel you're struggling if you continue down this path.

TL;DR version:

Gu/Te is too gimmicky and you'll always have trouble doing damage.

SEs don't help you and building around them will only hurt you. Real bosses are immune to DoTs.

Shifta is a horrible tech that's barely worth using and a horrible one to invest in boosting. a 7% damage buff at best is barely worth the time it takes it cast it.

Ra/Te is a better support build, Gu/Ra is a better damage build. I would alternate between these two depending on the situation rather than trying to pursue the Gu/Te path.

For raw damage, go Gu/Hu.




EDIT: And as unlucky said, techs are horrible for bosses. TMGs are some of the best weapons for single target DPS in the game. Use them instead.

EDIT2: On the subject of poison ignition - UnLucky said it pretty succinctly and I sort of touched on it, but here's the full version:

Poison ignition requires you to poison your enemies. in the time it has taken you to poison a single enemy the room should be clear. Enemies die absurdly fast to normal PAs without any gimmicks. If my level 30 Hu/Fi were to party with you, while you are trying to poison something, I've killed everything else and moved to the next room. Now imagine a full party of people using classes like br/hu and gu/hu which can clear whole rooms with 2-3 PAs. Doesn't make a lot of sense to try to get a skill that relies on you poisoning an enemy I could have killed 5 times over by the time poison procs. So it's clearly not for mobbing. What about bosses? only a handful of minibosses can be poisoned and no boss can be poisoned. So Poison ignition will only affect the few bosses you CAN poison which are basically the accordion dragons (except the rare one) and I think (ironically) gwana. That's it. No boss (with the big map icon) can be poisoned. It WILL NOT proc. Quartz dragon's body can be weakened by poison but it doesn't actually count as poison. So poison ignition won't work. If that weren't enough (it's enough) You have to be in incredibly close proximity for it to work so most thing you might have poisoned wont be in range for you activate the skill and you have to run over to them to get it to work. you could have cleared the room by then with a different build. It's just an overly gimmicky skill that's way more flash than fire.

[Sizustar]

Well, you can see what a Magic Gunner and Magic swordman is like

Gi/Fo
http://nicoviewer.net/sm23028689

Fi/TE
http://nicoviewer.net/sm23049732

[Omega-z]

@Sayara - This is incorrect "1. Enemies can only have 1 status effect at a time. (Except stun+SE i beleive.)" . Since you can put up to 4 SE's (mob's) on an enemies easily and maybe up to 5 at a time. But I've seen (Jellen,Blind,Freeze,Poison) a lot and at times a 5th but can't remember which one that one was. but you can always put 2 SE's on mob's.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

Ok first off how did anything live long enough to get stuck with all those?

And second, pics or it never happened.

[Sayara]

@Sayara - This is incorrect "1. Enemies can only have 1 status effect at a time. (Except stun+SE i beleive.)" . Since you can put up to 4 SE's (mob's) on an enemies easily and maybe up to 5 at a time. But I've seen (Jellen,Blind,Freeze,Poison) a lot and at times a 5th but can't remember which one that one was. but you can always put 2 SE's on mob's.

I've noticed an enemy go from mutated to burned to poison so I figure only one stacked. Hellenic and what not can't be put on weapons anyway besides the. Rangerbuffs

[SociableTyrannosaur]

...mutated?

[holmwood]

Make use of attack pp restorate by getting a high pp pool and playing as a caster (using rod/talis/wand).
-For caster play, use customized techs with reduced cast time. Or use high pp cost/high damage techs. (Or both = nafoie spamming :D) Regen PP using gunslash, not TMG...

-Sroll + Namegid spam with the TMG that adds tech attack. This one, you can actually use TMGs for PP regen with Gu/Fo without it being too much of an issue, mostly because of Force's pp revival. With Te/Gu... might want to stick to gunslash. :(

-Support with zanverse and zondeel. Te/Gu is phenomenally better. Why? Because not only do Techers have Territory Burst, but their Zanverse is stronger. Zanverse is affected by Wind Mastery 1/2, the wind latent, and Perfect Keeper from the Gunner tree. (Source: Swiki, March 5th update ) Here's a bit of calculation:

Zanverse base: 20% of Damage dealt
Wind Mastery 1 & 2: 1.2 x 1.2 = 1.44x
Wind Latent lv 3: 1.16x
Perfect Keeper: 1.2x

Total: 20% * 1.44*1.16*1.2 = 40% of damage dealt. So that's a 40% increase in damage for everyone affected by it, including yourself.

With Fo, it'll be ~ 28% damage dealt with wind latent + perfect keeper. But the radius is also much smaller due to the lack of territory burst.

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[otaku998]

Well, you can see what a Magic Gunner and Magic swordman is like

Gi/Fo
http://nicoviewer.net/sm23028689

Fi/TE
http://nicoviewer.net/sm23049732

While it is not efficient or fast, damn that was interesting and fun.

[Sayara]

...mutated?

Mirage. Sorry autocorrect like snitch.

[Omega-z]

At the moment it's bugged and it's not adding the affects correctly, This is also effecting the ST skills also. I do have a pic/pic's of it but don't have access to them at a moment. When I do I will post it/them.

edit: Yeah it seems the Proc. Boosts aren't working at all and Blind isn't being added all the way either. I was using a boosted Ice/poison with blind build with Furri for the Jellen. But everything is not working like it should be, which is a pain. Maybe this was in response to the 100% Fo freeze builds?

edit2: it is true that not affects compound ex-sample burn and poison which can't sense they are similar or you also have the opposites (ele. like Ice v.s Fire) will cancel each other out. But you have 4 type's of Affects: Additives (ie...Jellen,Stun,Blind,Life Cut,Injury) Conditional (ie.... Mirage, Confusion) Movement (ie...Freeze,Shock) and Damage (ie....Burn,Poison). As long as you don't have any similar or opposites (ele.) you can give out Burn, Confusion, Blind, Jellen and Stun.

edit3: OR should, But Sega is Sega and don't know if they will fix this or not?

[SociableTyrannosaur]

This was true in PSU but I'm not sure if it was ever this way in PSO2. it's hard to tell though since things die stupid quick.

[Omega-z]

@SociableTyrannosaur - It does work that way in PSO2 or it did. I did the tests during the week of 10-27-13 according to the posts I did in the Help thread under the Question on Ice keep. But yeah it does seem to be different now and unsure why?

edit: suck, it seems that I deleted all but one of those pic's (most likely me cleaning up for space) during the test all it has is the Freeze/Blind together and it's not that good either.

[TheBlackMage]

Thanks for all the feedback everyone! After finally getting into the hang of using Megiverse and Zanverse over shifta and deband as well as getting more experience with zondeel and changing my TMG PA's to Shift Period, Heel Stab (didn't have it before sadly had to buy it but was worth every cent ^^) and Messiah time. I've been seeing a drastic increase in damage and have been keeping up and sometimes surpassing other's DPS easily. (Although I'm sure it'll drop in higher lvls yet again.)

I don't have an issue with bosses anymore thankfully and after looking into the Hu and Ra tree's I'm starting to really see the appeal and I'll probably try Gu/Ra in the future as that weak bullet is really starting to tempt me. Ra/Te seems interesting but as amazing as Weak Bullet is I'm not sure if I want to dedicate an entire class for primarily that skill alone when nothing else in the Ra tree really interests me and would limit me to only 1 weapon I'd enjoy out of that combo which is the wand. (Aside from Weak Hit Advance, but personally I'm not too keen on using a rifle as my main weapon, it's play style just doesn't suit me very well. :/)

If I really miss supporting once I try Gu/Ra I might just go Te/Fo. After finally being able to use a wand it really made me fall in love with the class all over again.

Also I want to thank everyone for helping me realize how insignificant Poison Ignition really is and thanks to the 5 reset all skill tree items the game gave me I promtly removed it and started adjusting my my Te skill tree to work on achieving territory burst, PP restorate, and the wind masteries. Needless to say after taking all the advice about what I can do with Gu/Te I'll most likely continue to play as that until the time unfortunately comes where I have to adapt to the game instead of trying to make the game adapt to me. Thank you all once again for your wonderful advice! ^^

[SociableTyrannosaur]

bare in mind if you really like Te more, you could Te/Ra for weak bullet and carry an all class rifle.

[UnLucky]

edit2: it is true that not affects compound ex-sample burn and poison which can't sense they are similar or you also have the opposites (ele. like Ice v.s Fire) will cancel each other out. But you have 4 type's of Affects: Additives (ie...Jellen,Stun,Blind,Life Cut,Injury) Conditional (ie.... Mirage, Confusion) Movement (ie...Freeze,Shock) and Damage (ie....Burn,Poison). As long as you don't have any similar or opposites (ele.) you can give out Burn, Confusion, Blind, Jellen and Stun.
Jellen is a debuff, not a status effect, and I'm unsure if Stun counts either, but Bind can stack. Everything else overwrites each other (Burn, Poison, Freeze, Shock, Mirage, Panic).

I don't have an issue with bosses anymore thankfully and after looking into the Hu and Ra tree's I'm starting to really see the appeal and I'll probably try Gu/Ra in the future as that weak bullet is really starting to tempt me. Ra/Te seems interesting but as amazing as Weak Bullet is I'm not sure if I want to dedicate an entire class for primarily that skill alone when nothing else in the Ra tree really interests me and would limit me to only 1 weapon I'd enjoy out of that combo which is the wand. (Aside from Weak Hit Advance, but personally I'm not too keen on using a rifle as my main weapon, it's play style just doesn't suit me very well. :/)
Ranger can use Launcher and Gunslash (gun mode) as well, plus Gu/Ra using TMGs gets all the passive bonuses from Ranger as well, although doing the SRoll doesn't count as staying still for Standing Snipe.

You would only need to use a Rifle for WB, so once that's on cooldown you can freely use something else if you'd like.

[TheBlackMage]

Ranger can use Launcher and Gunslash (gun mode) as well, plus Gu/Ra using TMGs gets all the passive bonuses from Ranger as well, although doing the SRoll doesn't count as staying still for Standing Snipe.

You would only need to use a Rifle for WB, so once that's on cooldown you can freely use something else if you'd like.

I was afraid that Standing Snipe wouldn't be beneficial for TMG's but the other passives in RA (mainly weak hit) still makes it appealing. As for the weapons about the Ra/Te I ment out of that class combination I only enjoy the wand. Rifle for me is "meh" and mostly likely I'd only use it for Weak Bullet.

Launchers on the other hand I dislike in general, I dislike slow weapons in general and while I can't deny their power I still dislike using them, they just don't "click" for me. Hell, last time I used one I was still having issues with Just Attacks since I'm used to the increased speed of everything else. @_@

I still like gunslashes (they were my favorite weapon the game launched) but honestly once I started using TMG's they haven't seen much use. :/

[SociableTyrannosaur]

Standing snipe doesn't mesh well with TMGs at all but it helps for when you use skills like additional bullet or when you ARE using your rifle. Launchers are actually kinda fast once you get used to them. sometimes you have to work out of your comfort zone to get the most out of something.

[TheBlackMage]

Assuming I take the Gu/Ra route when should I be using my rifle outside of applying Weak Bullet? Bosses for increased accuracy I'm guessing but honestly I have no clue as to what weapons are good for what scenarios. (TMG's and Wand is what I use 98% of the time) I can see the rifle being very useful to me once I have the passives to make it shine though without those skills naturally I don't use it much. :/

As for launchers, It'd still use one as it'd be kind of a waste to completely neglect a weapon designed for my class just because I don't like it. I'm just not fond of them, everyone has a weapon he or she doesn't particularly care for but will (possibly) still use it for what purpose it was designed.

[GALEFORCE]

As a gu/ra, you only use rifles with weak bullet active. Rifles are just too weak without the hunter bonuses (as Ra/Hu), and their PAs are very cumbersome to use on top of that. I'm not quite sure what level you're at, but as a rifle user you'll need Homing Emission 11 and Diffuse Shell/Impact Slider 16 (even I still don't have IS16 btw..). Any ranks below those, and those PAs are worthless, courtesy of SEGA balancing.

TMGs are always a good choice to use though. They are extremely well-rounded weapons that can tackle pretty much anything if used properly.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

Pretty much what galeforce said. as a GU/Ra you're really only using rifles for WB, aside from that, TMGs have too many tools not to use. Infinite fire does great single target damage(keep pressing the PA button to increase rate of fire), We already talked about AoE and I find elder rebellion is a great finisher for CT now that the S roll JA stuff is in there, but someoene may have a better one

Rifles will serve you well vs bosses in other class combinations, but it's not important to learn the ins and outs of them when you can TMG. On the other hand you WILL have to level up ranger at some time unless you get some multi class TMGs or wands. Galeforce is right though, some PAs are just plain bad until they get to level 16 and others are just plain bad regardless. Diffuse shell looks good but it's damage is exceptionally low...but then it hits lvl 16 and goes from a 332 damage mod to 450...or something like that. it's absurd.

[Sandmind]

Shouldn't be hard at all to get a RA able TMG with the SH AQ stone TMG being advaible. Actually, all the "SH" AQ stone weapon are dual class with their other "pure" class, except rifle and talis that are triple class with BR. That's for the 1st set of SH AQ, I dunno if they will mix up the others AQ weapon's 2nd class for the sake of diversity.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

That's also true though as of now, TC is still ~30

[Omega-z]

@UnLucky - Jellen is a status effect according to the JP wiki so is Stun, oh I guess Injury is the Hp Cut.

[TheBlackMage]

Hmmm...somehow I completely forgot about the option of just grabbing an all-class TMG and play Te/Ra, massive failure. *faceplam*

I did just finish maxing Attack PP Restorate and halfway through maxing out the S Roll JA Bonus, it's going to be sad giving those two skills up...

Once I give ranger another go then, aside from Weak Bullet and Weak Hit Advance 1&2, and R-Atk 1&2, are their any must have skills I should make sure to grab? I'm assuming Jellen Bullet and 1 rank in stun grenade at least but the rest I'm not sure and I don't wish to wastefully throw points into things I think will be good as we all saw how that turned out. ^^;

[SociableTyrannosaur]

can't use TMG PAs if you go Te/Ra

[GALEFORCE]

You need gunner to use TMG PAs. Should go without saying that weapons are useless without their PAs... Well, not daggers I guess.

[TheBlackMage]

Oh yeah...
Well it looks like I need to learn how to love rifles and launchers then. @_@